ontherocks wrote:
i think the trick is to learn to avoid these photographers. there was a guy removed from zivity and the rumor was for the reason you describe in this thread.

was there any point during the first or second shoot where a little voice in your head might have been telling you to run away? if so then maybe listen to that little voice next time. and if it seems like the photographer wants to sleep with you they probably do! either you're ok with them feeling that way or you aren't. if you aren't then maybe you should just cut all communication with them and move on before it ends badly when the photographer doesn't get what he really wants.

Alright, that may be granted, but in a "perfect" world. The way that I look - not how I dress (although it shouldn't matter regardless), I would have to put a bag over my head and a sheet over my body each time I had the little voice in my head. It happens across industries, in professional workplaces, and even about a good portion of professions you would think would be exempt, like medical professionals. Over a certain time, this type of behaviour in unavoidable, so you can hide, or try to live your life. With that photog, I made it clear that I was only in it for professional reasons. When he spelled it out without a shadow of a doubt, I avoided him and ended all contact, as well as asked for advice.

I screen people carefully and also ask for references. I only deal with professional photographers who try to exhibit good work and do something within the industry.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Loose His Number

Do Not Respond to him in Any Way

Keep printed copies of all correspondence you have had with him.

Char1otte wrote:
I do have all emails and he couldn't be more frustrated that I was being professional as well as refusing to "see him." But I am not sure of the recourse or even benefit of keeping copies of the emails other than for my own records.

The photoshoot lasted hours and I had a lot of outfit changes. He refused to provide the edited photos as he did in the past 2 photoshoots, which is why I ever agreed to take photos with him in the first place.

In today's email (which prompted this post) he refused to provide the edited photos unless I met with him. Then had the audacity to say that I took advantage of him! (He is over 60, very established, has a few businesses, and rents a photography studio). He said he thought we were "friends" (by that he means "friends with benefits") although we never met outside the studio! There is nothing else he would expect from me as a "friend" other than sexual relations. He has not called upon me as a "friend" in any other context. We also never had any sort of friendship and only did photoshoots.

He should not be allowed on MM. He works with a lot of young models, some that kind of look vulnerable. I also learned during the most recent photoshoot he travels internationally to third-world countries to take photos of young women. What is the procedure of getting someone like that banned?

Your quote (in boldface) is EXACTLY why Ken Marcus suggested printing and keeping every bit of your correspondence with him. His behavior is sociopathic. As such he will try to twist this into being your fault.

Then "CAM" him. Even if this is his first "transgression" it will become part of his record here at MM. I doubt it's his first offense against a model. Allowing him to be unreported, will simply embolden him to be more aggressive with other models in the future.

People like him give legit photographers a bad name. No matter how skilled he is, he's bad news for the industry. If I knew who he was, I'd sic some of my gun slinging cowgirls on him.  He deserves to have to dance to some hot lead.

Light and Lens Studio wrote:
Your quote (in boldface) is EXACTLY why Ken Marcus suggested printing and keeping every bit of your correspondence with him. His behavior is sociopathic. As such he will try to twist this into being your fault.

Then "CAM" him. Even if this is his first "transgression" it will become part of his record here at MM. I doubt it's his first offense against a model. Allowing him to be unreported, will simply embolden him to be more aggressive with other models in the future.

People like him give legit photographers a bad name. No matter how skilled he is, he's bad news for the industry. If I knew who he was, I'd sic some of my gun slinging cowgirls on him.  He deserves to have to dance to some hot lead.

Yes, that is a good idea. There were maybe one or two emails I just deleted in disgust when I got them, but most are saved.

He is indeed sociopathic! That is an excellent way to describe it. Especially, someone who doesn't treat other people as human, but seems to use them for his own gain.

Char1otte wrote:

Yes, that is a good idea. There were maybe one or two emails I just deleted in disgust when I got them, but most are saved.

He is indeed sociopathic! That is an excellent way to describe it. Especially, someone who doesn't treat other people as human, but seems to use them for his own gain.

If you can recover the disgusting e-mails, do so. They help reinforce your allegations against him and may be useful if he continues to twist things to make it appear to be your "fault".

The best revenge you can have is to be a success. His behavior will eventually dig himself a hole deep enough to bury him.

Char1otte wrote:
I have a professional portfolio and same with this photographer who is 60 or over.

So if he was under 60 it would be OK?

Char1otte wrote:
Excuse me?! Why do you even insinuate that?! There were no emails other than him spelling it out for me that since  I rejected his advances, he will not finish the job! Then I sent a final email detailing the wrongfulness of what he did. End of story.

What some people insinuate in their minds here is quite beyond me. You honestly think I would maintain any further contact when he made it black and white, when there was no doubt he was quite criminal - trying to use sexual exploitation?

I'm sorry to hear about what you went through with this alleged predator.   Alright, so you sent one last email.  At this point in time, you have stopped all contact, correct?  End of story.  (I hope!)

Char1otte wrote:

Yes, that is a good idea. There were maybe one or two emails I just deleted in disgust when I got them, but most are saved.

He is indeed sociopathic! That is an excellent way to describe it. Especially, someone who doesn't treat other people as human, but seems to use them for his own gain.

For that reason you have saved all correspondence to protect yourself.  Do not use any of his images that he shot of you.   He would use that against you.  Also it is important not to reply to anymore emails,.texts or to any other form of attempted communication by him.  It will make your case stronger against him because it sounds like you might need to take this to the police if he continues.  A sociopath will try to take any words you give him and twists it against you.  Best wishes!

Char1otte wrote:
I did send him an email spelling things out for him in terms of his behavior

ANY attention you give him, even if it is negative, is playing into his hands.

Give him ZERO responses to anything he throws in your direction.

Keep everything he sends you . . . .

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

ANY attention you give him, even if it is negative, is playing into his hands.

Give him ZERO responses to anything he throws in your direction.

Keep everything he sends you . . . .

+100

Cut your losses, document everything in case it escalates and try to move on without this person in your life.

BTHPhoto wrote:

So if he was under 60 it would be OK?

How about a man of 60 or over should know how to not harass and assault people?

SoftLight Images wrote:
Whenever I shoot a woman model I insist that they bring an escort and if at all possible I bring one as well.  i do this to protect both of us,  my reputation as well as the model's comfort.  I can't understand why you shot three times with him.

I have used this strategy successfully myself for many years, until about three years ago, when I stepped it up a notch or two.

I developed some great contacts with the nearest NYPD Emergency Service Unit (S.W.A.T.) and their captain.

Now, I schedule my studio shoots to coincide with EMS downtime, e.g. never during full moon, etc., and they provide me usually four EMS officers in full gear and weapons to attend the photoshoot.

I also have my own attorney, as well the model's legal representative witnessing the shoot and both signing the minutes of the shoot, taken by my assistant, who used to be a court reporter.

Since then, my models never felt more at ease, unless they had some run-ins with the law before and/or don't like guns... but the rest of the models, well... happy like pigs in shit!   

udor wrote:

I have used this strategy successfully myself for many years, until about three years ago, when I stepped it up a notch or two.

I developed some great contacts with the nearest NYPD Emergency Service Unit (S.W.A.T.) and their captain.

Now, I schedule my studio shoots to coincide with EMS downtime, e.g. never during full moon, etc., and they provide me usually four EMS officers in full gear and weapons to attend the photoshoot.

I also have my own attorney, as well the model's legal representative witnessing the shoot as well and both signing the minutes of the shoot, taken by my assistant, who used to be a court reporter.

Since then, my models never felt more at ease, unless they had some run ins with the law before and don't like guns... but the rest of the models, well... happy like pigs in shit!   

udor wrote:

I have used this strategy successfully myself for many years, until about three years ago, when I stepped it up a notch or two.

I developed some great contacts with the nearest NYPD Emergency Service Unit (S.W.A.T.) and their captain.

Now, I schedule my studio shoots to coincide with EMS downtime, e.g. never during full moon, etc., and they provide me usually four EMS officers in full gear and weapons to attend the photoshoot.

I also have my own attorney, as well the model's legal representative witnessing the shoot and both signing the minutes of the shoot, taken by my assistant, who used to be a court reporter.

Since then, my models never felt more at ease, unless they had some run-ins with the law before and/or don't like guns... but the rest of the models, well... happy like pigs in shit!   

Hehe, awesome!

Laura UnBound wrote:
How about a man of 60 or over should know how to not harass and assault people?

I think the point trying to be made is that bringing up his age is immaterial to the issue at hand. A man (or person for that matter) over 16 should know how not to harass and assault people. What the guy did was wrong whether he was 60 or 25. When people bring age into the equation it opens things up to the *implication* that the behavior might have been acceptable to the victim had the perp been younger, and that is not a road that is productive to go down.

udor wrote:

I have used this strategy successfully myself for many years, until about three years ago, when I stepped it up a notch or two.

I developed some great contacts with the nearest NYPD Emergency Service Unit (S.W.A.T.) and their captain.

Now, I schedule my studio shoots to coincide with EMS downtime, e.g. never during full moon, etc., and they provide me usually four EMS officers in full gear and weapons to attend the photoshoot.

I also have my own attorney, as well the model's legal representative witnessing the shoot and both signing the minutes of the shoot, taken by my assistant, who used to be a court reporter.

Since then, my models never felt more at ease, unless they had some run-ins with the law before and/or don't like guns... but the rest of the models, well... happy like pigs in shit!   

Ha ha ha ha... lol... Love it. 

You made my day.

Thanks!

John_Vella wrote:
This post seems to have been overlooked,

I doubt it was overlooked as such. More a case of people being mindful that retouching images without the copyright owner's permission is, to say the least, 'problematic'.

MoRina wrote:
I'm sorry this happened to you.  Thanks for sharing your story. 

My advice is to try to nip bad behavior in the bud.  After the two successful photoshoots, you felt he was a little too chummy but you brushed it off and justified it in your mind as okay.  Next time something similar happens, don't be afraid to be clear in your communications.  Say something like "I loved the images from our shoots, but it makes me uncomfortable when you call me sweetheart, or when you do _______" (insert whatever it is that you weren't comfortable with.) His response will tell you whether or not you should ever shoot again with him.  He may apologize and adjust his behavior, or he will drop contact completely (because he really was intending it to lead to sex or whatever.) Don't be surprised if you get called every name in the book and then blocked.  Who cares?  You dodged a bullet.

And one last piece of advice.  If it's a trade shoot and you have to turn down a photographer's repeated verbal advances, or you are touched inappropriately, you really should just leave right away.... you're never going to see pictures from that shoot anyway. If you are assaulted, leave immediately and go straight to the police to file a report.

I agree fully with the above but I think you need to consider the third paragraph very carefully. Whilst I understand that money can be a factor which causes models to stay on shoots longer than they should you've already stated that the shoot was TF.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

Loose His Number

Do Not Respond to him in Any Way

Keep printed copies of all correspondence you have had with him.

Exactly this.
I understand how you feel but it's just one of those things. Try to not think about it and move on. You did nothing wrong and such behavior is just.... Ugh, I'm grossed out!

If it helps, when these kind of things happen to me I think of it as a statistic. Every year I have 1 terrible experience. But the rest is just fine so don't let it spoil your good morale!

Eye of the World wrote:

I think the point trying to be made is that bringing up his age is immaterial to the issue at hand. A man (or person for that matter) over 16 should know how not to harass and assault people. What the guy did was wrong whether he was 60 or 25. When people bring age into the equation it opens things up to the *implication* that the behavior might have been acceptable to the victim had the perp been younger, and that is not a road that is productive to go down.

The only people who take it "down that road" are people looking for a reason to call the victim a liar. As you said, age doesnt matter, so if someone happens to include someones age in their description of what happened, you'll be just fine ignoring immaterial details instead of turning them back on the person lodging a complaint as a way to discredit them.

BTHPhoto wrote:
So if he was under 60 it would be OK?

Laura UnBound wrote:
How about a man of 60 or over should know how to not harass and assault people?

How about a man over the age of 13 or so should know that.

Laura UnBound wrote:
The only people who take it "down that road" are people looking for a reason to call the victim a liar. As you said, age doesnt matter, so if someone happens to include someones age in their description of what happened, you'll be just fine ignoring immaterial details instead of turning them back on the person lodging a complaint as a way to discredit them.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't treated as an "immaterial detail" by the OP.  She probably mentioned it in at least half her posts.  And, no, I'm not "looking for a reason to call the victim a liar".  If she repeatedly mentioned the photographer's race, would you still consider questioning it to be an issue?

Char1otte wrote:
If someone knows of a good editor who can edit a few photos, especially in this circumstance, and help a model out, it would be very appreciated! I don't think I will ever get any edited photos from him from that shoot!! I have the link to the raw photos that I saved on a different drive than the one he has access to.

Retouchers from all over would love to practice, there is a forum here, on MM, I don't know which one, where you can post a link, probably few people will edit them.

As long as you do not use them for commercial purpose, you should be fine, I am not lawyer, just a guy with camera, LOL

udor wrote:
I know I am juvenile and immature, but I found this funny!

Oh, Jesus!

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

Loose His Number

Do Not Respond to him in Any Way

Keep printed copies of all correspondence you have had with him.

This the best advice, do it!!!

Tina Marie Desaro wrote:
Its a loss to you, nothing you can do, just move on and and don't ignore the flirting warning signs next time. There were plenty of warning signs and you  never should have done a 3d shoot or even a seond shoot...

This's from a model who has been there, and dealt with it, so listen to her!!!

udor wrote:

I have used this strategy successfully myself for many years, until about three years ago, when I stepped it up a notch or two.

I developed some great contacts with the nearest NYPD Emergency Service Unit (S.W.A.T.) and their captain.

Now, I schedule my studio shoots to coincide with EMS downtime, e.g. never during full moon, etc., and they provide me usually four EMS officers in full gear and weapons to attend the photoshoot.

I also have my own attorney, as well the model's legal representative witnessing the shoot and both signing the minutes of the shoot, taken by my assistant, who used to be a court reporter.

Since then, my models never felt more at ease, unless they had some run-ins with the law before and/or don't like guns... but the rest of the models, well... happy like pigs in shit!   

You made my day... *lol*

MLRPhoto wrote:

I'm pretty sure it wasn't treated as an "immaterial detail" by the OP.  She probably mentioned it in at least half her posts.  And, no, I'm not "looking for a reason to call the victim a liar".  If she repeatedly mentioned the photographer's race, would you still consider questioning it to be an issue?

+1

Laura UnBound wrote:
How about a man of 60 or over should know how to not harass and assault people?

This premise behind this entire thread has more to do with professionalism and character than it does with age.  Age has no bearing on how people act in a professional realm.  To excuse someone for acting poorly because they are either young or old shows a poor understanding of the meaning behind professionalism. 

The root problem here is someone supposedly acted inappropriately and is supposedly trying to utilize the leverage of having possibly compromising images of a model.  Hearing only one side of the argument does not enable anyone to make a sound decision on how the situation should be handled.  The same goes for the lack of legal qualifications by anyone, including myself.  This also applies for the psychiatric assessments about someone's purported mental maladies.

As I noted elsewhere, Model Mayhem is not the place to bring problems of a legal nature for advice.  I think its great to exchange ideas but understand that one person's idea does not necessarily equate to a legal precedence applicable in a court of law.  The only proper way to handle this issue is through legal channels involving the local law enforcement and, if litigation is necessary, an attorney.  Anyone giving advice about saving emails, charging the photographer with this or that, or citing medical problems with no basis for the diagnosis, while well intended, does little to ensure the industry as a whole remains positive in the community's eyes.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

Loose His Number

Do Not Respond to him in Any Way

Keep printed copies of all correspondence you have had with him.

-- 100%