JSouthworth wrote:
Recently there was a photographer complaining about being subjected to abuse by a model after he replied to her message to say he wasn't interested in working with her. It cuts both ways.

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I suppose you can provide data regarding the numbers of times photographers are subject to abuse from models compared to the number of times it happens to models at the hands of photographers, crew and hierarchical figures?  Wouldn't it stand to reason that if it was a regular problem for photographers to have a bad experience turning down a model, that there would be as many threads about that as there are about photographers complaining about models refusing to respond? It seems like photographers are very willing to complain about the behavior of others without consideration of their own behavior, right?  So where are all these threads about models abusing photographers?

There is absolutely no chance that the OP or anyone else got ignored because they presented a substandard offer?  Or they came across as a risk?  It could only be models lack common decency, professional courtesy, culture and manners?  (Geez, man, some people think that was a benign claim?)

I presume you can provide data indicating how many times a model assaults, sexually and otherwise, photographers and crews?

The phrase it cuts both ways indicates that an argument could be presented for either side.  Is that a valid perspective if the argument is not balanced?  What ratio have you noticed when comparing the numbers of photographers who have complained about being brutally harassed by models for rejecting the model for the job,  compared to the number of models that have been brutally harassed by photographers who are rejected by models?  But that isn't the only difference, is it?  In the course of a career, how many times do you think a model would be subject to  the myriad consequences that photographers can dish out, and which have been described by our colleague models?  Would you say it is ten per individual on the average?  50?  1000?  Particularly if the OP and those like him which required each and every model to notify a photographer each and every time they wanted to say no, those numbers could be huge?  Compared to the, what, ONE time you brought up where a model was nasty to a photographer?  (Something you didn't link, BTW.) 

If a photographer wants to give up because he is being ghosted, how is he going to feel when he has been outright rejected time after time?

It hardly seems like your idea of something cutting both ways is a point or statement which is meant to serve both sides of an argument.  It is an outrageous deflection and rejection of reality.

Your implication under the fallacy that it cuts both ways, is that the experiences of one person can be ignored or minimized because in a tiny fraction of cases the genders roles are reversed?  Wouldn't it be true that if something bad happens to a woman and the same something bad happens to a man, then the bad thing happened to a woman and a man and the fact it happened to any two people does not negate the fact that something bad happened to both of them?  As opposed to your minimizing a model's experience, experiences that happen to many models, and most likely it happens many times, because it happened to man once in a great while. 

An injury to one does not justify the same outcome that another experienced. 

Ever notice how both men and women get murdered and no one ever says, "it cuts both ways. So, what?"

In your opinion if a woman flips out on a man and says, "I am going to get you for this," would the man be in the same state of fear as when a man flips out on a model and says, "I am going to get you for this!"

Just for the sake of perspective: How many times have female actors been required to partake of a position on the casting couch to get a role, which is not assured anyway; as opposed to the number of times a producer was forced to drop trou per the demands of the actress?

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Haha stopped reading after the first sentence. My perception (of assault) is not unreliable because *I'm* damaged, inside or outside. My "perception" of being assualted happens  because people (in these cases male people, photographers, their assistants etc), commit fucking assault, and you ARE being obtuse, and we are done here. Who don't you go back to whatever it is you "create" (other than high blood pressure in others, but then again I'm no medical professional, so my perception of that might be off, who knows, i dont live in this body or this reality ) , and I'll do the same.

(BTW that was totally condescending, so nobody has to wonder about my tone there).

And this is why I've avoided these forums for so long; there's just no way to possibly talk about tough subjects without things being misinterpreted, or taken out of context.  It takes hours of long, face-to-face conversations to really understand where people are coming from, but that's just not commonplace anymore.

You probably don't care about anything I have to say, but, for what it's worth, I'm in no way, shape, or form minimizing the traumas you've experienced.  And, I'm not saying you DID NOT perceive actual pain or trauma.  All I was saying, was that our traumas can affect the way we react to the world around us.

I'm assuming the OP is NOT one of the people who hurt you.  Your response to him though, and possibly to men in general, is possibly a by-product of the traumas OTHER men have caused you.  This is just my perception from an outsider looking in though, so I could be totally off base. 

Regardless, I won't be coming back to the forums here.  They've become just as toxic as other social media sites, so they're not worth any more of my energy or time. 

I'm sorry people out there have hurt you.  And while I've never experienced that kind of trauma, men out there have hurt people I deeply care for. I've seen how it affected them and I know it sucks.  Sorry if my comments caused you any stress as well; that was not my intention at all. 

Best of luck to you all.

Signing out.

EdBPhotography wrote:
... there's just no way to possibly talk about tough subjects without things being misinterpreted, or taken out of context.

Nonsense.  A person could start by entering a conversation with a little more empathy then by calling out, "Who hurt you?" 

You didn't sit down to talk like it was face to face.  You admitted you sat from a far and for years watched someone post and applied your observational skills to determine that someone has grown increasingly angry and bitter towards this community.  That a response to the OP was demeaning and snarky, which made it appear as if the poster was very frustrated, impatient, and pretty much fed up with anyone who doesn't reach your perception of her high level of expectation or experience.  Look at all of the judgements you made in that comment!  You judged her emotions, and determined she has targeted everyone in the community.  You labeled her response as demeaning and snarky while attributing the OP's accusatory and demeaning comments to be benign.  Then again you attributed her with three negative actions and determined again her motivations- while being condescending.  You are complaining about the forums and how things are taken out context- yet you piled on again and again?

I get why someone responds to snark, condescending statements, frustration, etc, etc with more of the same.  One very good reason is because the people that use that stuff never stop using it.  So, from my perspective, I have seen the political labels wielded as demeaning weapons here and everywhere for so long, I feel what harm could possibly come from dishing it back?  After all, none of us would expect someone to be required to take a knife to what we know is going to be a gun fight.  Fair is fair, right? 

You can walk away because the forums here have become just as toxic as other social media sites, after you contributed to the toxicity, and as if you are a victim here.  Or, you can do what the OP should have done and examined his own actions and sought advice to solve the problem instead of lashing out. Then working to develop reasonable and rational conversations that take into account the real experiences of real people- and have those in depth conversations here in this very un-private forum where it takes some guts to reveal information and injuries.

Despite all the tension and emotions that were expressed here, we found out something that was incredible when Dea said,  "I cannot count the times I have been assaulted, in any way imaginable, and even after careful screening, only shooting with recommendations, serious firms and companies,  well established members of this and other networking sites."  That should be something that knocks the people on this site back on their collective asses- especially the males.  Instead of complaining about the nasty words thrown about in the forums- what, by God, are we going to do about THIS!  We are not going to address THIS by walking away.  We are not going to address THIS by calling people White Knights and criticizing people that take the side of models.  We are not going to address THIS by pretending that anger and resentment is uncalled for on the part of the victims as they navigate doing the work they love while trying to avoid assaults, injury and trauma. 

What good are the photographers, artists, make up artist, retouchers, and designers here if we do not have the models to work with us?

I, for one, did not like much of anything you said, but it is better for you to be part of the conversation going forward then to ignore the depths and depravity of the situation- if you can get over what you may feel now is an injury and accept it as a point of enlightenment and a place to move forward from.

JSouthworth wrote:
Recently there was a photographer complaining about being subjected to abuse by a model after he replied to her message to say he wasn't interested in working with her. It cuts both ways.

You know,  oftentimes I thought you're just a thoughtless, gormless, headless, rude, visually impaired troll, but maybe you're just really hard "on the spectrum" somewhere.  The density of your thinking and the smallness of your world is otherwise inexplicable to me.

Prez Photo wrote:
I have been wondering for the longest time why so many models here don't have basic common decency or professional courtesy to reply to messages?

This is real live and you have to live with it. I rarely contact models directly. Instead, I place casting calls and contact those who react to that.

Manfred wrote:

This is real live and you have to live with it. I rarely contact models directly. Instead, I place casting calls and contact those who react to that.

That's the tweet.

Modelphilia wrote:
Y'all sure know how to have fun on this thread!

Carry on   . . .  just don't do it here please.

Howzabout confining all of these personal attacks to the PMs instead?
Or is having an audience for your verbal venom the only thing that keeps your egos intact?

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Prez Photo wrote:
I have been wondering for the longest time why so many models here don't have basic common decency or professional courtesy to reply to messages? It doesn't take that long to answer simply that you are not interested in an offer. Where did manners and culture go? Is this really how this industry functions? Maybe I'm old school, but this is just incredibly discouraging and frankly makes me want to quit shooting if I have to deal with this level of ignorance. Thoughts?

Some people think that responding "Sorry, I'm not interested" because of so-and-so reason is awkward, and many feat that the follow-up reply will be nasty. Sometimes not answering is the easy way out, even if it looks cowardly.

Let me give you an example. I once had a model reply to my Casting Call. I checked out her port, and very politely replied that I'm not interested in working with models that have any public hair (in all of her nudes she had a full bush). Well, she replied back how all of the models in my port are fat and ugly, how I'm not a real man, and proceded to curse me out.

This is why people don't respond, or make up something (broken camera, out of town, etc.), because sometimes the truth leads to problems.

Zap Industries wrote:
Some people think that responding "Sorry, I'm not interested" because of so-and-so reason is awkward, and many feat that the follow-up reply will be nasty. Sometimes not answering is the easy way out, even if it looks cowardly.

Let me give you an example. I once had a model reply to my Casting Call. I checked out her port, and very politely replied that I'm not interested in working with models that have any public hair (in all of her nudes she had a full bush). Well, she replied back how all of the models in my port are fat and ugly, how I'm not a real man, and proceded to curse me out.

(emphasis above mine)
Are you required to provide a reason, and potentially open yourself up to fallout? I don’t think so.

Wouldn’t something along the lines of, “I appreciate your interest, but no thank you” minimize pushback? No insincere hints of a possibility at a later date and time, no opening the door for a rebuttal (“I can grow my pubic hair!”), really nothing to be challenged, refuted, or battled. Just a simple acknowledgement that s/he reached out to you, and a full stop.

AgX wrote:
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Are you required to provide a reason, and potentially open yourself up to fallout? I don’t think so.

Wouldn’t something along the lines of, “I appreciate your interest, but no thank you” minimize pushback? No insincere hints of a possibility at a later date and time, no opening the door for a rebuttal (“I can grow my pubic hair!”), really nothing to be challenged, refuted, or battled. Just a simple acknowledgement that s/he reached out to you, and a full stop.

I could have said something like that but I thought that she deserved a reason as to why I wasn't interested, mainly because I wrote "no pubic hair" in the Casting Call. By saying what I told her, it might make her read all of the Casting Call the next time she replies to one.

Burle-Skit Art Perform wrote:
No reason to get butt-hurt by it.  I've read in the past here those who "block" Mayhem models who didn't reply.

But I see no reason to do that.  I've sent so many messages out that it's good to keep track whom I've sent messages to so it needn't be repeated.

The reason for blocking isn't necessarily to keep the person from contacting me, it's so i don't waste my time and energy trying to contact them for future gigs.  No need to keep track, the block function keeps track of 'em for me.

EdBPhotography wrote:
And this is why I've avoided these forums for so long; there's just no way to possibly talk about tough subjects without things being misinterpreted, or taken out of context.  It takes hours of long, face-to-face conversations to really understand where people are coming from, but that's just not commonplace anymore.

You probably don't care about anything I have to say, but, for what it's worth, I'm in no way, shape, or form minimizing the traumas you've experienced.  And, I'm not saying you DID NOT perceive actual pain or trauma.  All I was saying, was that our traumas can affect the way we react to the world around us.

I'm assuming the OP is NOT one of the people who hurt you.  Your response to him though, and possibly to men in general, is possibly a by-product of the traumas OTHER men have caused you.  This is just my perception from an outsider looking in though, so I could be totally off base. 

Regardless, I won't be coming back to the forums here.  They've become just as toxic as other social media sites, so they're not worth any more of my energy or time. 

I'm sorry people out there have hurt you.  And while I've never experienced that kind of trauma, men out there have hurt people I deeply care for. I've seen how it affected them and I know it sucks.  Sorry if my comments caused you any stress as well; that was not my intention at all. 

Best of luck to you all.

Signing out.

Communication is being made complicated with technology when people misunderstand each other.  It's sad when we have the ability to communicate instantly around the World in live time, yet people get their nose out of joint because they misinterpret the meaning of written words.  With kids growing up without the in person contact that quality communication provides over the tech tools we have. No wonder mental illness has increased as a problem in our society. 

When you have not gotten a response from someone using this fancy technological communication tools, then find something else to do, pick up the damn phone and call someone.  No one is obligated to reply to your messages. Life does not have to be that complicated.  It's people who make it so.

IF it is imperative that you get a reply, then write up a document and have them served!  Go before a judge and resolve your situation with that person.  If it is not that urgent, then if that other person gets a restraining order against you because you keep messaging them even though they don't reply, then let that be a lesson!

Prez Photo wrote:
I have been wondering for the longest time why so many models here don't have basic common decency or professional courtesy to reply to messages? It doesn't take that long to answer simply that you are not interested in an offer. Where did manners and culture go? Is this really how this industry functions? Maybe I'm old school, but this is just incredibly discouraging and frankly makes me want to quit shooting if I have to deal with this level of ignorance. Thoughts?

They're not models. Just girls looking for an ego boost

No Answer IS Your Answer . . .

空 wrote:
When a model sends an unsolicited note, it is often viewed as rude.

Why is it viewed as rude?

Aisbarika wrote:

Why is it viewed as rude?

...by whom?
The models who reach out to me usually have professional-quality images, plenty of experience, and are respectfully looking for more work while they're touring in my area.  So far, I consider myself fortunate not to get spammed by "models" with four selfie portfolios wanting $200/hr. to stand in front of a camera and either reflect or absorb light.
There are a couple I have yearly appointments with when they come to the area.
YMMV

Prez Photo wrote:
I have been wondering for the longest time why so many models here don't have basic common decency or professional courtesy to reply to messages? It doesn't take that long to answer simply that you are not interested in an offer. Where did manners and culture go? Is this really how this industry functions? Maybe I'm old school, but this is just incredibly discouraging and frankly makes me want to quit shooting if I have to deal with this level of ignorance. Thoughts?

This is just a reflection of new societal norms. I'm not judging it but generally speaking, younger people today are more likely to not see an issue of not responding-- anywhere.  It's just how society has changed, much due to social media I'd assume but who knows.  I'd have anxiety if I didnt respond but for others its either just how it goes OR they have anxiety over how to respond if they aren't interested.   We all just need to understand each other the best we can

Shadow Dancer wrote:
I just don't worry about it.
People don't change just because you wish they would anyway.
And many people may wish that you would change yet it's likely you won't (speaking for myself, I pretty much do what I do).

Great attitude!  There is so much more to life than wasting time thinking about unanswered messages.