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working with minors...
okay, so I guess we at one point in our life's face this question... Sorry if it's been gone over a hundred times before. I recently put an ad out on CL looking for some art models, linked two images as examples, and without saying the word nude explained what I was looking for. I'm really wanting to try some art nudes, absolutely nothing graphic or explicit or sexual, just some fancy nudes or the term I hate to death, implied nudes... Now, a girl emailed me and we've been talking back and forth for a few days and it wasn't until last night that I got an email from here along the lines of "oh yeah, i'm a minor". I responded asking if she had seen the two example photos and new what I was looking for in the casting and she said that she had, but then went on to try to tell me that she couldn't legally do that, so of course I had to remind her that there are no anti nudity laws at any age, only anti sexually explicit laws and that those could even cover clothed shoots (so please none of the "she's a minor it's illegal" posts, fear mongering is not cool). Anyway, I get an email back from her today asking for a where and when. She's said that getting a parent to tag a long and sign the model release isn't an issue, though that was also in the same email about how, and I quote, "It's the law." about not being able to do nudes so I'm not sure if she's trying to get me to change my casting to non nude to shoot with her or not. In this last email after I did explain it all to her she tells me that her mom is a paramedic who works 48 hour shifts and that I should give her a few days that would work for me so they can match it up with her mom's schedule. So, after all of that story i'm a little confused. I'm going to email her back and ask her what we would shoot if we shot together. I'm not sure I'm wanting to shoot with an inexperienced model in the first place, let alone one that isn't on the same page as what I'm wanting to shoot. Any advice? Jun 30 09 10:24 am Link she's a minor, talk to the parents..outline the shoot and see it its still viable... Jun 30 09 10:48 am Link It's up to you whether you go ahead with this or not, but at this point: 1. I'd get a phone number and talk directly to the mom 2. before the shoot and before any clothes come off, they have to prove their mom-daughter relationship with IDs and birth certificate for the girl 3. I'd make a point to have the mom and my assistant/mua stay for the entire shoot 4. keep a lawyer on retainer in case the girl goes out flapping her mouth to her friends about taking nude pictures and a "citizen with good intentions" calls the authorities 5. make sure you have back up of all of your stuff offsite in case you do need to use your lawyer because big brother came over and took all your shit away with child pornography charges 6. don't forget to come back here and let us know and prove the fear fongers wrong And oh, yeah, I almost forgot the obligatory "I'm not a lawyer so don't take what I said as legal advice" Jun 30 09 10:54 am Link If she's a minor, talking it over directly with a parent is a must. This shows not only your serious and honest intentions, but also respect for the parent and model's safety. When it comes to teenagers, they often talk talk talk, and it turns out the parent haven't even been informed of anything, yet they still try to get away with that. This doesn't only concern an "implied nudity" (sorry for using this expression lol) shoots, but any kind of shoot that involves an under 18 model. Jun 30 09 11:08 am Link i wouldnt even risk it.. too many adults/of age models out there to even chance having to prove you were within the law etc... Justice is about how much you can afford, not how much you deserve.. for what a consult/retainer with an atty would cost, you could get a smoking hot 19 yr old hooker off craigslist to do all the nude shooting you can drum up in a day... Jun 30 09 11:10 am Link 1st off - "are you over 18 ?" should come fairly soon into any communication. secondly - why make life hard for yourself. Jun 30 09 11:16 am Link minor is minor period. thats the law period. parent or no parent period. Jun 30 09 12:15 pm Link Millers studio wrote: fear mongering or just stating the obvious? Jun 30 09 12:20 pm Link I'm surprised that no one has busted in with the........ "your going to hell.... by way of the fed super max prison....... after bubba gets you" .......Line of logic. My biggest concern would be the fact that you communication with the potential model seems week and disorganized. As if the model is young, flighty and not considering how this could affect you or her, or perhaps you have not been direct enough in covering the bases. Given the potential issues is this really the model you want to go forward with? Jun 30 09 12:24 pm Link Millers studio wrote: You know you have just stated exactly......... well nothing helpful. Jun 30 09 12:25 pm Link what about just shooting her with clothes on? since she wants to shoot with you. and maybe leave the nudes for the 18+ models. even if it's legal to me it does seem like there's some risk in doing nudes with minors. how much risk i don't know. and i'm not a lawyer (nor do i play one on tv). but i did stay at a holiday inn express last night. lol. Jun 30 09 12:26 pm Link Millers studio wrote: What law? Please cite your references. Jun 30 09 12:28 pm Link Do you have a model release form? If so, have her parent/s sign it, and make sure they know EVERYTHING before you start shooting. Things could potentially still go wrong from there, but you will have proof that her legal guardians agreed to it. Jun 30 09 12:37 pm Link Dream Dragon wrote: Yeah, like I never signed my father's name to any of my report cards with bad grades in high school before... Jun 30 09 12:38 pm Link mendesm wrote: That's because the school was foolish enough to not require that dad sign them in person in front of a school official. Jun 30 09 12:40 pm Link Chris Macan wrote: I understand that, but the post I quoted was missing the "in person" in it Jun 30 09 12:42 pm Link mendesm wrote: Ohhh I get that.... Jun 30 09 12:50 pm Link Chris Macan wrote: It may help to show the judge that the mother is just as depraved as the photographer Jun 30 09 01:08 pm Link Doug Swinskey wrote: Does anything else really need to be said? Jun 30 09 04:33 pm Link Millers studio wrote: Hehe, now I wonder who's first thought is porking thier photo subjects?? Jun 30 09 04:42 pm Link CGI Images wrote: Ha, it is a bit, no is no is no, seriously though, I personally don't shoot under 18's unless their parent is present and they both give me ID to make sure it is all above board, last thing you need is the law breathing down your neck and you can surely find someone over 18 out there in the big wide world, the world doesn't revolve that one model! Jun 30 09 04:49 pm Link Bruce Hart wrote: What if a "concerned citizen" sees your nude 19yr old and thinks she looks like a "minor" and turns you in for child porn, I guess the safe thing would be to not shoot 19yr olds either. Jun 30 09 04:51 pm Link Thomas James Dean wrote: Believe ms I believe in practical cya, which yours and others points are just that. But that business cya goes for 16, 19 or 40. Jun 30 09 04:53 pm Link CGI Images wrote: True, good point! Jun 30 09 04:56 pm Link CGI Images wrote: There are assholes everywhere, but a 18+ year old with ID at least stop Sheriff Bubba paying you too much heed. Jun 30 09 04:56 pm Link Justin Foto wrote: Yeah but my point was if "bubba" wants to turn one thing that's legal into saying it illegal he can do that with the pics of a 19yr old as well. Jun 30 09 05:08 pm Link CGI Images wrote: From the misinformation I keep reading, I suspect that's less than likely. Everyone including Bubba "knows" that there is an age limit of 18 - even though there are no such laws - or at least none that have ever been presented here. So you should be ok as long as you keep above the ignorance threshold. Jun 30 09 06:55 pm Link I say do it! Through caution to the wind and do what you want. I mean what could go wrong? A man uses Craigslist to solicit for "art" models and develops an email relationship with a girl he knows is a minor. The subject of "the law" is brought up by the minor child and the photographer tells her not to worry, she can pose nude and not break the law, its ok! The photographer has had no contact with the minor child's parents to see how they feel about all of this. Go for it dude! I can't see how anyone could ever see this as anything untoward! BTW, I'm not a lawyer, yada yada. Jun 30 09 07:31 pm Link Tim Little Photography wrote: Yeah, see I am probably one of the most liberal voices on mm when it comes to this subject, but I'm kind of leaning with Tim on this one. The situation seems a little.. "off" to me. Jun 30 09 09:47 pm Link I work with a lot of minor models. Here are some tips to make your life easier. OH... and before I get started I am impressed with how little trolling is going on in this thread at this point. Well done MM! Tips: 1. I call it "Active" involvement of the parent. Short of the parent being "actively" involved in the models career I suggest you leave it alone. You will most likely found a girl who wants to play model rather than be a model. There are exceptions. 2. No nudes on the first shoot if you found her via CL. I would generally never suggest a new model do nudes on a first shoot of any age. 3. Discuss the ramification and the permanence of the work if you plan to post the photos online. I suggest they expect everyone they know will see the work. If that is ok with them we move on. 4. Keep the parent in the loop via a CC or additional phone call. Nothing wrong with talking to the model even if the model is under 18. But I suggest keeping the parent privy to those discussions. 5. Talk to a lawyer. Good Luck! EDIT: I re read your original post. You are so far away from my "tips" at this point I really suggest you scrap the whole deal. Too many tangents. Plus, I am not sure starting to do art nudes with minors is the proper way to learn the biz. Jun 30 09 10:03 pm Link bencook2 wrote: Very sound logical, rational, sane advice with proper perspective.. Job well done Ben. Jun 30 09 10:28 pm Link First, technically, it is possible to photograph minors nude in some rare circumstances. The child porn or obscenity laws do not expressly forbid all nudity of minors. They forbid sexually explicit photos, clothed or unclothed. And that is a vague description that can be interpreted differently in different communities. You can conceivably photograph nude minors, provided it isn't sexually provocative in any way. Think naked baby pics. As a practical matter, it is relatively easy to shoot naked baby pics which look completely innocent. It is much more difficult to shoot a 17 year-old nude without it being sexually provocative. Possible in theory; much more difficult in reality. Even if legal, you should assume that there is a much higher likelihood that it could be challenged than naked baby pics. Are you prepared to defend yourself legally? Are you prepared for angry screeds from church ladies? Bencook2's tips are excellent suggestions. Given your lack of experience shooting nudes, your minimal and confusing communication with this girl so far, and your complete absence of communication with her parents, I strongly suggest you pass on this. You, the minor model, and both her parents should be in complete 100% agreement on your nude artistic vision, which you need to clearly and specifically communicate in detail, before you even think about this. The oldest nude I've ever shot was a 9 year old. And that was after extensive communication with the parents. I talked with an attorney specializing in obscenity law before doing the shoot, and got a lot of good advice before proceeding. It was a mother/child shoot. The two of them together, very sweet and innocent. And you'll never see me post that photo online. Jun 30 09 11:25 pm Link I have no idea why you are even considering this. Jun 30 09 11:31 pm Link CGI Images wrote: I think that is the most superlatives I have ever gathered... and I was just shooting for "sane". Jul 01 09 08:19 am Link Dylan Roberts wrote: Regardless of age, if you're not getting a decent vibe about your communication w/ the model, that's kinda a red flag for headaches down the line. Jul 01 09 08:28 am Link are you paying her? even if its completely legal, how old exactly is she? theres plenty of models old enough for their not to be any hassle so why put yourself into a situation where drama could be caused down the line with the "teenager". Jul 01 09 08:39 am Link I'm really amazed at the practicality and sensibility in this thread when its posted in the Photography forum vs some of the other forums. Jul 01 09 08:40 am Link SCRetouching wrote: So in your opinion to avoid drama stay away from 13-19yr olds? Jul 01 09 08:41 am Link CGI Images wrote: +1 Jul 01 09 08:43 am Link CGI Images wrote: 13!? naked, to avoid drama, deffinatly. Jul 01 09 08:43 am Link |
