Iona Lynn wrote:
This year since trying to retire and failing I decided to be an uber cheep model.

50 an hour, that is it.

But I also reserve the right to not accept jobs that bore me to tears...

I sometimes do that.

Why book only two shoots at my normal rate, when I can interest five or six photographers by lowering it?

I do it a few times a year.

$50 an hour for a model published once is cheap.  $50 an hour for someone published as many times as you or me?

Ridiculous.

I love business.

Iona Lynn wrote:
This year since trying to retire and failing I decided to be an uber cheep model.

50 an hour, that is it.

But I also reserve the right to not accept jobs that bore me to tears...

You know better.....

Shandra Stark wrote:
4- Barter

I like doing this anyway, bad economy or not.

ckhd Photography wrote:

I like doing this anyway, bad economy or not.

As do I.

Shandra Stark wrote:
to share ideas about budgeting, planning...etc. 2- Get someone to split the cost.

Probably, not all photographers are good businessmen. If however some models really are both models and really good businesswomen at the same time, why don't they find the way to split the cost and find a bunch of compatible photogs to work with them simultaneously themselves?

Just my 2cents/

Dan OMell wrote:

Probably, not all photographers are good businessmen. If however some models really are both models and really good businesswomen at the same time, why don't they find the way to split the cost and find a bunch of compatible photogs to work with them simultaneously themselves?

Just my 2cents/

I've certainly done it, and would encourage others to as well.

Solid point!

Iona Lynn wrote:
This year since trying to retire and failing I decided to be an uber cheep model.

50 an hour, that is it.

But I also reserve the right to not accept jobs that bore me to tears...

(sadly though I am reasonably enough in touch with reality to know that the lack of work in my area would render this financially unwise)

Wilde Hunt Corsetry wrote:
I feel like a lot of people who put up obstacles to getting what they want, just don't want it bad enough. If your art is important enough to you and your drive great enough, you will go with out (drinks, cigarettes, movie tickets, cable, manicures, etc) to improve your work.

I agree 100%.

Wilde Hunt Corsetry wrote:
I feel like a lot of people who put up obstacles to getting what they want, just don't want it bad enough. If your art is important enough to you and your drive great enough, you will go with out (drinks, cigarettes, movie tickets, cable, manicures, etc) to improve your work.

I totally agree

Shandra Stark wrote:

I've been meaning to for years.

I have a hard time with transitions.  Staying on topic.  General flow.

I used to be a editor, in another life when I was still an author.

stan wigmore photograph wrote:
OP has some good tips and ideas,However I would like to caution  that working with others to share the cost can be a very frustrating and disapointing experience.It's just human nature in general that when you need people the most they will let you down.That's why there are so many "flake" rants in the forums.
    We give models alot of static about flakeing ,but just wait until you try and organize a group of photographers.Best advice I can give is forget about the promises they give,get the money up front!

I once had four photographers book me for a day.  They were shooting in a Studio that belonged to Photographer A.  Photographers B and C wanted glamour and nudes, Photographer D wanted art nudes.

A day for me is about 8 hours, And the photographers did it round robin style.  They knew what the wanted to shoot for each set, and we flew.  Eggtimer in the corner, 15 minute break between sets where they ALL helped move lighting, change props, backdrops, etc and I got to rest and get ready for the next set.  There was a cold buffet set out and always accessible.

Afterwards they took me out to dinner.  Everyone got great images, everyone was happy, and it ran like silk.  I did ask how and why.

They met through a forum like MM, started talking, realized they lived close enough to get together, and went out and had a few drinks.  They discussed this concept, realized that $500/4 is $125, that they had access to a studio, and that they had all done community theater and knew how to do stage work.  They practiced the set-up/take-down a few times, worked together to help each person get the set the wanted designed, and everyone had a specific job- Photographer A on backdrop duty, Photographer B on props, etc.

Organizing something like this scenario is easier than trying to get your kids up, dressed, fed, collected and out the door to school every morning.

Fotographia Fantastique wrote:
Any day now I am expecting a group of models to get together to split my rate (travel and a buffet) to shoot with me robin style.

Nope.  I'm just going to show up, abduct your muse, rape your camera, and sodomize your creativity.

And then I'll bake you cookies.

The Original Sin wrote:

I once had four photographers book me for a day.  They were shooting in a Studio that belonged to Photographer A.  Photographers B and C wanted glamour and nudes, Photographer D wanted art nudes.

A day for me is about 8 hours, And the photographers did it round robin style.  They knew what the wanted to shoot for each set, and we flew.  Eggtimer in the corner, 15 minute break between sets where they ALL helped move lighting, change props, backdrops, etc and I got to rest and get ready for the next set.  There was a cold buffet set out and always accessible.

Afterwards they took me out to dinner.  Everyone got great images, everyone was happy, and it ran like silk.  I did ask how and why.

They met through a forum like MM, started talking, realized they lived close enough to get together, and went out and had a few drinks.  They discussed this concept, realized that $500/4 is $125, that they had access to a studio, and that they had all done community theater and knew how to do stage work.  They practiced the set-up/take-down a few times, worked together to help each person get the set the wanted designed, and everyone had a specific job- Photographer A on backdrop duty, Photographer B on props, etc.

Organizing something like this scenario is easier than trying to get your kids up, dressed, fed, collected and out the door to school every morning.

That is AWESOME.

Shandra Stark wrote:
With so many people up in arms about the economy and its relation to art/hobbies, I thought now would be a great time to share ideas about budgeting, planning...etc.

I will share ideas about the most frequent thing most people complain about on this site.  Feel free to  add clever solutions to other problems.  I have five solutions to one problem.  What problems can you help clear up for people, regarding budgets?:

P: Oh my gosh, your rates are too high.  I can't afford them.  We'll never work together!!!  *cry*  *pout* *bitch*

S:

1- Send an offer anyway. 

If all you have to offer is a sandwich and $50, tell the model/photographer/whatever that exact thing.  You never know!  I am more insulted when someone throws a pity party, and says "You'll never work with little old me.", than I am if someone says "Hey, listen, money is really tight, but I really respect your work and was wondering if you'd accept such and such."

2- Get someone to split the cost.

Just because a model doesn't say "I'll work with more than one person at once" on his or her profile, does not mean that person isn't willing to make exceptions.  I'd be more than happy to shoot with one or two extra photographers, for my same rate.  Split it and save yourself money.  Some models may not be cool with that, but you'll never know if you don't ask.

a- I don't have any friends!  How can I get someone to split the cost, omgz!   
           

*Get on model mayhem and start networking!  It's what you're here to do! "Hey, Jerry, I've admired your work for a while.  I see that Susie Nudie Pants is  visiting soon, and was wondering if you'd want to shoot her with me.  Awesomesauce studios is only $30 an hour, and we could go out for drinks after to talk about the shoot.

*Put up an event thread.  Have a get together at a studio or restaurant, and get to know your fellow photographers.  Talk, shoot landscapes, hang out.  Start a club...whatever you need to do.  Then when Susie Nudie Pants is coming your way, you have a pool of people to choose from.  If Susie already lives near you, or has no plans for travel- ask!!  "Hi, blah blah day of shooting, blah blah, split cost...blah blah what is your rate.  Sincerely, Jerry"

*Join meet-up.com

3- Host a workshop

Whatever this means for you, do it.  If you don't know how, ask the model; you'd be surprised how many of us know how to pull an event together. 

Don't have anything to teach?  GET CREATIVE!  Take photographers on a hiking trip, with model en-tow.  Take them boating, take them around your land, have a crazy shooting party at your studio.  Get people together to give you money and shoot the model, and pay the model his or her day rate from those earnings.  Negotiate how much time said model will shoot with you exclusively.

4- Barter

What do you have that this model may want? 

Examples:

clothes
food
transit passes
room and board (have hotel points?  send a model instead of yourself)
books
gift cards
furniture
electronics
web site
concert/movie/theatre tickets

...etc

Own a bowling alley?  A hair salon?  Pastry shop?  Have your own nightclub or restaurant?

Do you teach skydiving lessons?  Guitar?  Salsa dancing?

Use what you've got.

5- Plan ahead

I never contact a photographer spur of the moment, if I know that they are paid only.  I've always asked WAY before I ever expected to be in their area, or even if I had NO PLANS of being in their area ever.  That way I know how much I'd need to save, should the opportunity present itself, or should I decide to take charge and go now.

Start a shooting fund, for any necessary photography-related stuff. 

Start saving the way that works best  for you, even if you have NO model/mua/project in mind. 


Maybe for you this means $10 week.  Maybe it means never spending your five dollar bills.  Maybe it means saving all your tips from your restaurant gig.

Make it happen.  Some of you are getting in your own way.

I have met many models who have been willing to work out a deal. For my current project, I offered what i felt was a fair deal and was surprised by how many models agreed to shoot with me. So basically morale of the story, you never know until you try.

-Titania- wrote:
One thing that peeves me is when a photographer replies to my quoted rates with "so-and-so will work with me for less/trade!!"  If you know how much you can/are willing to pay a model, tell them that at the get go.

How many paid models have you negotiated with and shot with?  Have you ever looked at this from the photog's POV?  Why would this bother you?  It's just like haggling to buy a car.  That dealership would sell me this same car for less, that dealership would give me a little more for this trade in, can you do the same or better? 

It peeves me when models quote me a rate that is far above the going rate and have less experience than the next model.  It tells me that they don't do their research and have no idea what things and services are worth, and have no idea what they're worth.  This over-quoting is an insult to my intelligence.  Let the other suckers pay the unrealistic rates.

Rodney Almore Photos wrote:
Hi there,

I would like to take a picture of your brain, it seems to be "pretty" awesome from the way you think.  Your message to the industry is right on point, and very insightful.

Thanks for waking us up!

-Aviva- wrote:
Shandra-You're brilliant for starting this thread.

Thank you!

FotoMark wrote:

I have met many models who have been willing to work out a deal. For my current project, I offered what i felt was a fair deal and was surprised by how many models agreed to shoot with me. So basically morale of the story, you never know until you try.

*high five*

That's awesome! 

I've been finding out the same thing.  I mean, I always knew it deep down, and have always encouraged OTHER people, but I just put up a casting for a completely different type of work, and am pretty surprised by the number of absolutely ridiculously amazing people are contacting me, and even MORE surprised that some of the people I'm taking time to reach out to on my own for trade, are messaging me back basically saying "of  course!".

I do have a lot of pride in what I do, and I typically think of myself as one of the absolute best, but only in reference to the ART world.  It's humbling and comforting to know that my options are not half as limited as I once believed.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
lol I tried to get someone to split the cost with me before

Everyone, even the commercial photographers with all the resources I could imagine, took a few looks at the models (very experienced girls btw) and said "You know, there are tons of girls that will do what you are suggesting for free"

haha and then I got tons of girls that did what I was suggesting for free

at that point I realized I could keep doing this TF thing forever.

You can, and you're entitled to.

I wouldn't suggest you do this for some random model whose look is a dime a dozen.

If you really want to work with someone (a specific someone, not just anyone), you will find a way to do so.

This thread was made for those who want to work with a specific someone, whoever that someone is, regardless of whether or not they have found them.

Devious Designs wrote:
This is an interesting thread and I haven't seen any designer like myself post and I could write a book on this. Wait, I did!

As a designer we really get shafted from all directions. We have to pay models, the photographers, MUA's etc. For models this is really wild. Before the economy got bad everything was great, except for a lot of mature models who thumbed their noses at us for the obvious reasons. They wanted more and would go for the higher offer. Then what was funny was when the economy got bad, guess who came back round begging for work and even cut their rates? Needless to say they got a taste of their own medicine. If everyone noticed even Old Navy got cretive and went with using mannequins. I had to serious laugh as a model there is your competition. It's a one time investment, the model (mannequin) always on time, never asks questions, never has a diva attitude, can hold the same pose for ever without needing a break, and they even do nudes without a varied rate. The list goes on and we have even went that route at times. What is funny as the is that we still have work and we can't book a model to save our lives for mainly one simple reason... they take forever toget back to you. It's surprising that in a day and age of cell phones, email, and text messaging, models have become horrible with communiction. In our business, I demand from my staff that all mail, phones, emails, etc, are responded to within 72 hours. How can you plan a shoot when you can't get people to call or contact you back.

We do barter for outfits, perosnal training services, trip to a day spa and things like that. We try to show our appreciation to models by offering such things. It's tough out there and we know it. We don't expect anyone to do something for nothing. Yet regardless of the age of the model, how long she has modeled, whether she does nudes or not, they all come at us for $100 an hour, or more. I don't mind paying that, but like another photographer said, we are not going to pay a model just starting out, or nude able to do nudes $100 hour. I know I'm going to catch all kinds of grief for this comment, but it's pretty easy money if you have someone doing your makeup and hair, telling you how to pose and all that. I have a union mob of mannequin that are fighting for their fair of exposure in front of the camera. lol What I tell models is this and it's all about business. Consider each job offer as there are no two the same. Consider the client's budget, the difficulty of the job, what is being offered of supplied and wht you have to supply. Then consider a fair rate. Maybe you do have to lower your rate for this job, but it could land you more work. Most importantly, keep in contact with with the client!!!

Now we rarely do TFP's and for good reason. It cost you time and money to get there, to put food on your table, pay your bills, etc. Do we offer photos for the model to use? You bet! Unlike photographers, we just have one or two simple rules. If we pay you, then don't use the photos for profit. Two just make sure we get listed for credit.

Affordability goes hand in hand with marketing and I see a lot of models fall victim to a number of simple mistakes. We get a lot of models who are not comfortable modeling thongs and this blows my mind, yet they still want want a nude model can make. Stop and think about. Everything is covered so what is the problem? Do you adjust your rates, do we go with a nude model? It's a no brainer. Even though we are a clothing company, we select nude models because they are more comfortable, generally don't need an escort, and are easier to work with. Keep that in mind on your next offer! I also see a lot of model who have nude shots in their ports and in big bold letters state "I DON'T DO NUDES SO DON'T EVEN ASK!" Again stop and think about it. Is someone going to offer you work with that? We're not and we're going to move on to the next one.

As a few have said here bartering is great and we do it! Now that we are mainly ecommerce, we get tons of emails from models, photographers, vendors and customers. I have offered tons of models extra work and a number of simple ways. For example, when we do a shoot, we always as the model if they are interested in doing fitting work afterwards. It pays a flat rate of $25 an hour for you to just stand there and try on various outfits in various design stages. Yet it flips most out to think that someone might see them nude or the physical contact. Sure you have to be careful these days, but get over the insecurities! Another thing we offer is with our shopping cart software and others, with login info we set you up with, you can help add new items to various websites, add product descriptions, help process orders and the software is super easy! This allows us to track everything you do such as when you log in and out. Thats how you get paid. The pay can be done as simple as having a Paypal account and just transferring the money. Yet here we are offering work to models and none will even consider it.

As for photographers. OMG! You guys are a real hoot. We are not back in the days of having to buy photo paper, developing chemicals, having a dark room and all the equipment. We are in the digital age. Photoshop CS4 is what $800 but you can get it for $125 in a combo deal with Lightroom as we did by just doing our homework. Or you can use Gimp and other editing software. Unless you have a sticks and bricks studio, what is your real costs? Not that much after considering the purchase of your equipment. There is a ton of things you can do to lower cost or be more affordable too. Even though we have all the equipment, we farm out a lot of our photo work to various photographers. It provides the photographers work and income. Yet so many are so greedy. What I love about you guys is that say on a 4 hour shoot you may take 300 shots, But you only want to come off of 5 to 25 is the most we have ever gotten. They are hand picked and edited and end up mainly unusable to us as a result. And then is the raw image issue and the copyrights, the licensing and useage fees and it goes on and on. Fortunately for us  most of the shots you see in our ports were done by a few couples. So we get two for the price of one. Talk about affordablity! Plus you get two different styles of shots. And to ice the cake the highest couple charges us $45 and hour, we get all the photos in raw format, no copyright, no licensing, fee and all that you guys general bicker over. You have to admit all three couples do damn good work. Do we take care of them? You bet!

Let me give a quick example here. Just recently we had a calendar shoot lined up and it was for a great cause... to help a farming family who's son almost died in a farming accident. So I got called upon to play middle man. Now while everyone was on board and the photographer for this project were awesome in there reduced rates, and offering up some great things (Thanks to those photograhers... our awesome), I went to John Deere and talked to them. They alread provided a donation, equipment to the farm for planting and such, they offered the models promo work, to be in commercials and marketing materials. As for the photographers, well they were going to let them do any photography work. Plus offer this for a year! All they wanted in return was copies of raw images to use for the marketing. Needless to say one greedy photographer kept asking why do we need all the other photographers? UM DUH? Everyone get photos to do as they wish plus all that John Deere was offering. Once agian here we go with the copyrights, no raw images, Joe SMOE is going to get more than me, and I get to hand pick the shots and edit them to my liking, blah, blah, blah.

You have 12 models that are posting your work, us a designer, the cartering poeple and the other businesses who was also willing to use these guys for marketing photo work, J.D. giving you work for a year, you could have sold the photos to stock photo companies, used the other photographer work to create your own calendar, a quick how to e book on how to do a group shoot, etc. The list is endless. Yet One Greedy Jack Wagon ruined it for everyone. There was networking, bartering and affordablilty down the pisser. What is sad is the there was a number of models willing to travel from out of state for gas and hotel expenses.

Consider each deal and get creative people. We have a lot of talented models, photographers and other professional here that if we are willing to step of side of the box, a bit we can all come up with amazing ways to do what we love, be affordable and still make money without putting yourself out of work, or exploited others.

Great Thread Everyone!

Thanks,

Devious Designs

nice!...  but, why didn't you just boot the one photographer who was ruining it for everybody and continue the amazingness without him?

Paul Ward wrote:
bartering has served me well.  i host out of town models in exchange for a shoot and it's given me access to models i normally couldn't work with.  also, i can do experimental stuff that i normally wouldn't do on a paid shoot.

i've also put out less cash for paid shoots since lots of models who get paid rarely (according to what they tell me) get an enlargement for their wall/book or digital images for their online portfolio or website.

hosting (for the non locals):  stay here for the duration of your trip in exchange for one shoot not to last more than three hours

partial pay (for the locals):  some cash plus a few digital files which the model chooses at the end of the shoot, an enlargement for their wall or portfolio, and food if they are hungry and round trip subway fare.

not a bad deal, even in a recession

nice job!

high five!

Looknsee Photography wrote:
In fact, when I was starting out buying investment real estate, someone gave me a four page reader's digest article on negotiations.  Just following those techniques must have saved me $100,000 in the past few years.

Does "Readers Digest" have a MBA Program? Just wondering.

Iona Lynn wrote:
This year since trying to retire and failing I decided to be an uber cheep model.

50 an hour, that is it.

But I also reserve the right to not accept jobs that bore me to tears...

You are so much in demand that you can't retire!