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Photographer
Veasna
Posts: 2,177
Aldershot, England, United Kingdom


Ok if there's only you the photographer and the model. Who would be the witness to sign the form? Do we always need an assistant to sign that? or leave it blank?
Jun 22 09 10:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


The photographer is the witness for the model's signature


KM
Jun 22 09 10:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Veasna
Posts: 2,177
Aldershot, England, United Kingdom


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
The photographer is the witness for the model's signature


KM

no im talking about the witness signature section. not the model's signature part

Jun 22 09 10:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


you can be the witness AND the photographer
Jun 22 09 10:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Timothy Nantz
Posts: 483
Thomasville, North Carolina, US


at last a duty for those pesky escorts we hear so much about! wink
Jun 22 09 10:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Veasna
Posts: 2,177
Aldershot, England, United Kingdom


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
you can be the witness AND the photographer

do you have a sample of the form? cause when i search online i see tons and I dont' know which one i can use neutral

Jun 22 09 10:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 21,947
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Veasna Him wrote:
Ok if there's only you the photographer and the model. Who would be the witness to sign the form? Do we always need an assistant to sign that? or leave it blank?

First find the legal requirement that there even be a witness.

Wait, there isn't one?

Jun 22 09 10:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 21,947
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Veasna Him wrote:

do you have a sample of the form? cause when i search online i see tons and I dont' know which one i can use neutral

There is no official form.  Many people have devised their own.

Jun 22 09 10:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bill Mason Images LLC
Posts: 1,854
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Veasna Him wrote:

do you have a sample of the form? cause when i search online i see tons and I dont' know which one i can use neutral

Donwload the official U.S. government form. I believe this is it.

http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/webd … onForm.pdf

Jun 22 09 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Veasna
Posts: 2,177
Aldershot, England, United Kingdom


Bill Mason Images wrote:

Donwload the official U.S. government form. I believe this is it.

http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/webd … onForm.pdf

oh that's what i did already but i was wondering if others use different ones...and plus i dont get the part where they say "Producer" is the photographer the "Producer" why not just say Photographer instead of Producer?

Jun 22 09 10:53 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Felicia Sun
Posts: 1,046
Cambridge, England, United Kingdom


Veasna Him wrote:

oh that's what i did already but i was wondering if others use different ones...and plus i dont get the part where they say "Producer" is the photographer the "Producer" why not just say Photographer instead of Producer?

Perhaps because it might not always be a photographer, but some sort of filmmaker/producer?

Jun 22 09 10:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BlueDancer Digital
Posts: 105
Portland, Maine, US


Bill Mason Images wrote:
Download the official U.S. government form. I believe this is it.

http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/webd … onForm.pdf

Looking at this form, and the requirement for the model to sign photocopies of her ID... am I to understand that we must always have a photocopier on hand to do a shoot? That's pretty inconvenient for people like me who do a lot of work on location and outdoors...

I believe I satisfy the requirements by taking a photo of the ID, and the model holding the ID, in lieu of having her sign anything more than my release (which includes text verifying her status as a legal adult).

Can anyone comment on this?

Jun 22 09 10:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


Here is the two page form that I use.

http://www.onlinepixxx.com/2257.forms

It is the very same one that LFP (Larry Flynt Publications) paid a lot of money to have speciality lawyers to make up for them.

This is NOT a model release . . . this is the 2257 form that must be kept separate from the model release.

Enjoy . . .


KM
Jun 22 09 10:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gil Lang C
Posts: 819
Isla Vista, California, US


answered now.
Jun 22 09 11:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Posts: 5,105
Greenville, South Carolina, US


Bill Mason Images wrote:

Donwload the official U.S. government form. I believe this is it.

http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/webd … onForm.pdf

It really needs to have the title of the work(s) and date of production in there somewhere also.

Jun 22 09 11:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


BlueDancer Digital wrote:

Looking at this form, and the requirement for the model to sign photocopies of her ID... am I to understand that we must always have a photocopier on hand to do a shoot? That's pretty inconvenient for people like me who do a lot of work on location and outdoors...

I believe I satisfy the requirements by taking a photo of the ID, and the model holding the ID, in lieu of having her sign anything more than my release (which includes text verifying her status as a legal adult).

Can anyone comment on this?

You must have photocopies for the model to sign. Make sure that you slightly enlarge the copy so that it is not at 100% magnification, as that is illegal under Homeland Security Regulations.

You beliefs are wrong . . . if you don't comply 'exactly' to the regulations,  you can be in big trouble.

KM

Jun 22 09 11:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Posts: 5,105
Greenville, South Carolina, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
You must have photocopies for the model to sign. Make sure that you slightly enlarge the copy so that it is not at 100% magnification, as that is illegal under Homeland Security Regulations.

You beliefs are wrong . . . if you don't comply 'exactly' to the regulations,  you can be in big trouble.

KM

With all due respect to you Ken, I have to say it's not required for the photocopies to be signed by the model to meet the 2257 guidelines. It is simply a precaution some producers use to prevent the model from using a false identity when checked against the driver's license signature to ensure he/she is not impersonating someone else or using a fake ID.

Jun 22 09 11:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


Cogito Ergo Zoom wrote:

With all due respect to you Ken, I have to say it's not required for the photocopies to be signed by the model to meet the 2257 guidelines. It is simply a precaution some producers use to prevent the model from using a false identity when checked against the driver's license signature to ensure he/she is not impersonating someone else or using a fake ID.

You are correct, that the 2257 regulations do not 'require' the photocopies be signed. However, for your own protection, as proof that the person who is signing knows what it is that they are signing, you should have them sign the copies in such a way that some of the ink of their signature goes over the area of the copied ID's so that upon close inspection it is obvious that they didn't sign a blank piece of paper, but that the copy was on the paper first.

KM

Jun 22 09 11:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Veasna
Posts: 2,177
Aldershot, England, United Kingdom


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

You are correct, that the 2257 regulations do not 'require' the photocopies be signed. However, for your own protection, as proof that the person who is signing knows what it is that they are signing, you should have them sign the copies in such a way that some of the ink of their signature goes over the area of the copied ID's so that upon close inspection it is obvious that they didn't sign a blank piece of paper, but that the copy was on the paper first.

KM

im confused don't i just need one piece of paper for them to sign..well two 2257 and model release right?

Jun 22 09 12:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


The model release has nothing to do with 2257

They are for two separate purposes.

You should have both and keep them separated in your files.

KM
Jun 22 09 12:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan Howell
Posts: 2,188
New York, New York, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
The model release has nothing to do with 2257

They are for two separate purposes.

You should have both and keep them separated in your files.

KM

Yet they can be on the same document.  I have not seen any mention that they must be on separate sheets of paper.  I would caution that the some emphatic language used in this thread is not supported by actual regulations as discussed in numerous threads here and sites more closely associated with the issue.  There is a difference between regulations and good ideas and it is important to differentiate the two.

Jun 22 09 03:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


Yes . . . you are correct on that.

However, when I met with the FBI agents that handle the 2257 investigations, they were very clear that the model releases should not be filed in the same place as the 2257 forms.

Why . . . I don't know and didn't ask.

I just took their word on that.

KM
Jun 22 09 03:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Digitoxin
Posts: 13,341
Houston, Texas, US


Veasna Him wrote:
Ok if there's only you the photographer and the model. Who would be the witness to sign the form? Do we always need an assistant to sign that? or leave it blank?

Where in the Regulations is a witness to a signature required?

Jun 22 09 03:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tim Foster
Posts: 1,758
New York, New York, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Yes . . . you are correct on that.

However, when I met with the FBI agents that handle the 2257 investigations, they were very clear that the model releases should not be filed in the same place as the 2257 forms.

Why . . . I don't know and didn't ask.

I just took their word on that.

KM

When you met with the FBI agents? Over what sort of content?

Jun 22 09 04:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
shotbytim
Posts: 1,014
GREENWELL SPRINGS, Louisiana, US


Felicia Sun wrote:

Perhaps because it might not always be a photographer, but some sort of filmmaker/producer?

That's right. The photographer may be working for hire and will not be in possession of the photos. The person who will "distribute" the photos is the one who must maintain the records or attach to the photos contact information of a "Custodian of Records".

Jun 22 09 04:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 21,947
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Bill Mason Images wrote:
Donwload the official U.S. government form. I believe this is it.

http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/webd … onForm.pdf

There is no such thing as an official US government form.  That certainly is not one.  It's just one suggested by FSC, which is not by any stretch of the imagination a part of the US government.

Jun 22 09 04:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


Tim Foster wrote:
When you met with the FBI agents? Over what sort of content?

I've mentioned this in several threads on 2257 before (I guess you missed them).

I attended a meeting between the FBI agents that are assigned to the 2257 inspections and representative members of the adult industry.

The agents informed us as to how they were conducting their inspections and what they would be looking for.

They also told us how photographers/producers would be selected for inspections.

It was quite interesting and informative.

KM

Jun 22 09 04:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
EnlightendedPhotography
Posts: 821
Eugene, Oregon, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
You must have photocopies for the model to sign. Make sure that you slightly enlarge the copy so that it is not at 100% magnification, as that is illegal under Homeland Security Regulations.

You beliefs are wrong . . . if you don't comply 'exactly' to the regulations,  you can be in big trouble.

KM

Can you take a digital picture of the drivers license / passport and social security card?  I had been carrying a portable scanner but a model said this is what another photographer did.

Jun 22 09 05:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


EnlightendedPhotography wrote:

Can you take a digital picture of the drivers license / passport and social security card?  I had been carrying a portable scanner but a model said this is what another photographer did.

Personally, I would not want to take a photo of the ID. I want a paper copy that can be signed in ink. I want proof that the model has signed the copy of her ID that will hold up in court, if need be.

KM

Jun 22 09 05:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
OLJ studio
Posts: 1,550
Winnetka, California, US


Jun 22 09 05:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


OLJ studio wrote:
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=187041&page=

I did take some notes . . . not as complete as the writers from AVN did, however.

You can read some of what went on here:  http://business.avn.com/articles/7344.html

I did tape record the entire meeting, so maybe that qualifies as 'notes' too.

KM

Jun 22 09 05:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
EnlightendedPhotography
Posts: 821
Eugene, Oregon, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

Personally, I would not want to take a photo of the ID. I want a paper copy that can be signed in ink. I want proof that the model has signed the copy of her ID that will hold up in court, if need be.

KM

I thank you for letting me (us) use your 2257 format document and I am now using it and have the model sign the document - I was doing a scan of both the Drivers License / Passport and Social Security Card on top of the 2257 Document - Now I am just taking a digital picture (higher resolution than the scanner) of these documents after she signs it with witness.  I do most of my statue pictures outdoors and really hate to carry the extra gear.

Jun 22 09 05:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


EnlightendedPhotography wrote:

I thank you for letting me (us) use your 2257 format document and I am now using it and have the model sign the document - I was doing a scan of both the Drivers License / Passport and Social Security Card on top of the 2257 Document - Now I am just taking a digital picture (higher resolution than the scanner) of these documents after she signs it with witness.  I do most of my statue pictures outdoors and really hate to carry the extra gear.

I hope you didn't misunderstand me . . . I do not condone the taking photos of the ID's. I want paper copies of the ID's with the models signature in ink going over the copy.

You can either bring a copy machine to your location, or have the model fill out the paperwork before you leave your place to go shoot.

At both Playboy and Penthouse, it was not uncommon to have the models fill out all the paperwork several days before the actual shoot. And on other occasions, we would bring a copier to the location.

KM

Jun 22 09 06:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ckhd Photography
Posts: 1,244
Saint Johns, Arizona, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Yes . . . you are correct on that.

However, when I met with the FBI agents that handle the 2257 investigations, they were very clear that the model releases should not be filed in the same place as the 2257 forms.

Why . . . I don't know and didn't ask.

I just took their word on that.

KM

It's because under a 2257 investigation, they can look through anything that has 2257 records in it.  Keep your 2257 stuff in a different file cabinet in a seperate room and on a seperate computer.  When the feds come, they have no reason to be anywhere except the 2257 room, the bathroom, and the kitchen for a drink.  They don't have the right to look through your studio, through your other business files, through your business computer, through anything that does not have 2257 records.  Now, if your business computer/file cabinet/whatever has 2257 records, they can rifle through them.  They ask to see your studio, you can say, "I will not physically stop you, but I object to you going in there as there are no 2257 records in there."

If they are looking to fry you, limit their fuel.

Jun 22 09 06:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


ckhd wrote:

It's because under a 2257 investigation, they can look through anything that has 2257 records in it.  Keep your 2257 stuff in a different file cabinet in a seperate room and on a seperate computer.  When the feds come, they have no reason to be anywhere except the 2257 room, the bathroom, and the kitchen for a drink.  They don't have the right to look through your studio, through your other business files, through your business computer, through anything that does not have 2257 records.  Now, if your business computer/file cabinet/whatever has 2257 records, they can rifle through them.  They ask to see your studio, you can say, "I will not physically stop you, but I object to you going in there as there are no 2257 records in there."

If they are looking to fry you, limit their fuel.

Excellent advice !

I do keep my 2257 information in the reception room on a computer that is not networked to anything else in the building. Everything that is needed for inspectors is in that room, including places for them to sit and work, access to a bathroom and drinking water.

All of this was covered during the meeting with the industry and FBI inspectors.

KM

Jun 22 09 06:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ckhd Photography
Posts: 1,244
Saint Johns, Arizona, US


I read the AVN aritcle.  I don't believe for a second that they select from a 'lottery'.
Jun 22 09 06:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,441
Los Angeles, California, US


ckhd wrote:
I read the AVN aritcle.  I don't believe for a second that they select from a 'lottery'.

If they didn't, they could be accused of singling out someone for prosecution and that could overturn a verdict.

Apparently they use a 'randomizer' program that selects 10 names from their ever-growing database of photographers/producers/videographers.

Once those names have been inspected, they run the computer again for the next 10 names.

KM

Jun 22 09 06:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ckhd Photography
Posts: 1,244
Saint Johns, Arizona, US


I work for the gubbmint at my day job, and now I really don't believe it.  I know an 'official' cover story when I see it.  The 'randomizer' is only for when they don't have someone specific in mind.

Crap, now I'm going to be randomly investigated for someting...
Jun 22 09 07:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Strange Babes
Posts: 436
Los Angeles, California, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
you can be the witness AND the photographer

can I be witness, photographer and model smile

Jun 22 09 08:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Strange Babes
Posts: 436
Los Angeles, California, US


Veasna Him wrote:

oh that's what i did already but i was wondering if others use different ones...and plus i dont get the part where they say "Producer" is the photographer the "Producer" why not just say Photographer instead of Producer?

if you make picture you produce picture. if you walk in make picture and leave. everything else done by someone else. you not producer.

Jun 22 09 08:39 pm  Link  Quote 
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