Flex Photography wrote:
Models who are underage, (18 in England) cannot legally sign a model release. You need the parent or legal guardian to give their permissin by signing! Also, I would never shoot an underage model without the parent/guardian always present! I would also not consider anything suggestive or at all revealing! Cover your ass!!

(In Scotland 16 is the legal age!)

Took the words right out of my mouth. Do what he said and you should be fine.

mixphotography wrote:
Thanks all, glad I asked now. Kind of assumed 16  was okay.  I will ask to speak to parents first.

thanks again

Mick

You might want to hang around a bit longer, I wouldn't put tons of stock in the advice you received.

mixphotography wrote:
I'm curious Cherrystone

Nothing much to be curious about.

You just asked what is, essentially, a legal question to a community of photographers, models, make-up artists, hair stylists, wardrobe designers and retouchers.

The only thing sillier than doing that is actually expecting to get correct information upon which you can rely.

If you screw it up, are you going to go to Court and say:

"BUT, but, . . . but, . . .a photographer in the United States said it was ok . . . "

??

My suggestion: find a lawyer in your jurisdiction.  Find out what the law is in your jurisdiction.  If you can't find one to give you the advice for free, it's likely worth the cost of the consult so that you don't have to ever worry about this again, in the future.

(for the future: if you are experiencing a painful medical condition, best to contact a physician.  If you have leaky pipes, best to consult a plumber.  If you have questions about lighting or camera equipment or retouching or shutter speeds, feel free to ask those questions in a MM forum)

I think THAT is likely what CherryStone is hinting at.  Either that OR the fact that you're very likely going to be bombarded with a ton of very expert-"sounding" advice from non-experts.

Tread lightly.  Be careful.  Have fun.  Good luck!

PYPI FASHION wrote:
My understanding is that you don't really need a model release for most uses in the U.K. but it's still a good idea to involve the parents and make sure they are on board.

Correct - and in some cases having a badly worded release will do you more harm than good.

But if the model is under 18 you need to think carefully about what you will be shooting and why. Is it a paid portfolio shoot, a TF shoot, fashion, lingerie, what? Getting the parents involved is probably a wise move, but be aware that it won't necessarily protect you in the event that some busybody takes a dislike to to one of the photos and reports you.

Personally I won't shoot anybody under 18 apart from agency models on agency sanctioned tests.

Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Stefano Brunesci wrote:
Personally I won't shoot anybody under 18 apart from agency models on agency sanctioned tests.

Stefano Brunesci wrote:
Personally I won't shoot anybody under 18 apart from agency models on agency sanctioned tests.

Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Weddings, senior portraits and school photos. The three biggest retail photography markets. All involve subjects under 18, every single day.

mixphotography wrote:
I'm curious Cherrystone

Some of what was said earlier is utter rubbish

I figured in time someone from the UK who knows what they are talking about would weigh in, I'm aware of 3-4 I would put stock into their answers.

One of them has, so your off and running....perhaps one of the others will too.

Personally IMHO, if this is going to be a continuing endeavor for you, consult with a barrister who has experience in related fields. Don't consult with one who is a real estate expert. Get whatever contracts, forms, etc approved by them and go to business. Have them refreshed every year or two. Laws do change.

Lastly, don't ever take photographic advice from lawyers.

Bruce Hart wrote:
what about all the commercial photographers who do senior portraits? seems like there are a lot of those shoots. or is that considered safer than shooting underage models?

Lumigraphics wrote:
Weddings, senior portraits and school photos. The three biggest retail photography markets. All involve subjects under 18, every single day.

The OP is not asking about senior portraits or school photos - he's asking about shooting an underage model.

OP, you DON'T need a model release in the UK (unless you're planning to submit the images to magazines or stock houses) but you DO need to be aware that taking 'indecent' photos of anybody under 18 can get you jail time and automatic inclusion on the sex offenders register.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection … n_Act_1978

"What's an indecent photo?" I hear you ask. Good question. Ask the judge or jury at your trial because they are the ONLY people with the power to decide as there is no accepted legal definition in the UK. So if you get the wrong jury then almost any photo you take could be ruled 'indecent' by them. Is that a risk you're willing to take just for the sake of shooting with this model?

That's why I only shoot under 18's on agency sanctioned tests and I would advise you to do the same.

If you want a more authoritative opinion, wait for Studio36uk to reply or PM him.


Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Stefano Brunesci wrote:
The OP is not asking about senior portraits or school photos - he's asking about shooting an underage model.

OP, you DON'T need a model release in the UK (unless you're planning to submit the images to magazines or stock houses) but you DO need to be aware that taking 'indecent' photos of anybody under 18 can get you jail time and automatic inclusion on the sex offenders register.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection … n_Act_1978

"What's an indecent photo?" I hear you ask. Good question. Ask the judge or jury at your trial because they are the ONLY people with the power to decide as there is no accepted legal definition in the UK. So if you get the wrong jury then almost any photo you take could be ruled 'indecent' by them. Is that a risk you're willing to take just for the sake of shooting with this model?

That's why I only shoot under 18's on agency sanctioned tests and I would advise you to do the same.

If you want a more authoritative opinion, wait for Studio36uk to reply or PM him.


Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Great Quote!

In your kind Wiki article it says one is not allowed, inter alia,:

"(a) to take, or permit to be taken, any indecent photograph of a child (meaning in this Act a person under the age of 16);" --25 years later changed to age 18, in 2003, copying the UN treaty and US law.

I too, out of habit, not the law, shoot 18+ overseas when the look includes anything risque. Better to stay in the habit since I'm US-based, for me.

I hate quoting an article that 6 million people have the ability to modify, but it is quick, usually accurate, and you really had a ready resource there. Stefano, I have seen your posts in other forums and find lots of thoughtfulness, careful consideration and wisdom in your thread contributions. I'm trying to practice here so that when I go "out there" to other Forums I will exhibit a similar level of professionalism and helpfulness. Thanks for your great examples!!

Matrix Studio wrote:
I hate quoting an article that 6 million people have the ability to modify, but it is quick, usually accurate, and you really had a ready resource there.

Exactly. Wiki is no substitute for qualified legal or medical advice but it's normally a pretty good indication of how things are.

The main reason I used it rather than digging out and quoting the Act itself was because the Wiki article helpfully also points out that, although all the offences in the Act are based on the concept of an 'indecent' photo or act, there is not actually any definition of what constitutes 'indecent' in English law


Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Lumigraphics wrote:

Weddings, senior portraits and school photos. The three biggest retail photography markets. All involve subjects under 18, every single day.

QFT. Not to mention all the automated photo booths at the malls, wonder how many of them have had to explain themselves to a judge?

Shooting "minors" is a HUGE percentage of the retail photography business, to act like there is some "risk" in that requires a lawyers help is silly at the least.

Ray Holyer wrote:
You are not doing anything illegal.  A model release, signed by the parent at the time of the shoot (and each time you shoot), is a good idea, not just because of the Release itself, but because it's a good indication of parental consent, and all that stuff.

Make sure you get proof of age, to be sure that she is over 16.

I look upon the lack of definition of 'indecent' as a positive thing.  First of all, the guidelines used are pretty much the same as the USA's Dost stuff, so there is some guidance, but, ultimately, each case is judged on its merits, and UK juries tend not to be as stupid as some people would like to think.  There is a difference between a shoot with parental involvement and portfolio use by both parties, and a shoot done without parental knowledge for a photographer's "own private collection", even though the photographs might be the same.

What are you talking about??  I've taken pictures of hundreds of "minors" never once made any of them produce ID. 

"sorry we can't go forward until you produce a drivers liscense!!"

"I'm only 9??!"

Flex Photography wrote:
Models who are underage, (18 in England) cannot legally sign a model release. You need the parent or legal guardian to give their permissin by signing! Also, I would never shoot an underage model without the parent/guardian always present! I would also not consider anything suggestive or at all revealing! Cover your ass!!

Matrix Studio wrote:
Since the age of consent across the UK is 16 you are pretty safe. Certainly the Commons may have passed a child porn law mandating sexually explicit photos to be a higher age. Call your local solicitor on Monday, she/he will be able to say.

Better yet, browse here on MM for a fellow UK Photog, and ask for a copy of his template model release. Boots on the ground may have an answer for you in an hour!

2 different answers as to what the legal age in England is. Both make their statements with certainty - but obviously one of them is wrong. I'm not saying who is, as I don't know.

The point is research the law yourself and get a definitive answer.

Mi Do - Comps wrote:
My avatar is 14 and from Australia. The 2nd photo in my portfolio is 17 from Sweden. There is another who is 16 from Russia and a 4th girl in my portfolio who is 17 and from Michigan. None of them signed forms (I booked them through their agency and the photos were for our portfolios). If I were going to sell the work I would have the parents sign a release. Honestly, the models I work with from fashion agencies are coming from around the globe so I have NO idea how to have them sign releases and often wonder if I would need to get their parents signature from Argentina to sell a piece in the US (that is why I do commissioned work and have the client and agencies figure out the paperwork). In the end: the paperwork will depend on the assignment.

Content was brought up by others so I will address it as so: Use adult models for adult themed work and child/young adults/teens for non-adult natured work. It's that simple.
--
MICHAEL DONOVAN
http://MichaelDonovanPhotography.com

Common sense and logic, you haven't been around long have you?

CGI Images wrote:
Common sense and logic, you haven't been around long have you?

Most of the advice on this site is counterintuitive and defies common sense/logic. I'm tired of reading threads where people jump in and say "run away from minors, have the parents breathe down your neck as you shoot, you will go to jail for even shooting anyone under the age of 19 in any way."

And, if it were common sense, the OP wouldn't have even asked and people wouldn't have jumped in to freak out before I had posted.

Mi Do - Comps wrote:

Most of the advice on this site is counterintuitive and defies common sense/logic. I'm tired of reading threads where people jump in and say "run away from minors, have the parents breathe down your neck as you shoot, you will go to jail for even shooting anyone under the age of 19 in any way."

And, if it were common sense, the OP wouldn't have even asked and people wouldn't have jumped in to freak out before I had posted.

You had me at "hello"!

Stefano Brunesci wrote:

Correct - and in some cases having a badly worded release will do you more harm than good.

But if the model is under 18 you need to think carefully about what you will be shooting and why. Is it a paid portfolio shoot, a TF shoot, fashion, lingerie, what? Getting the parents involved is probably a wise move, but be aware that it won't necessarily protect you in the event that some busybody takes a dislike to to one of the photos and reports you.

Personally I won't shoot anybody under 18 apart from agency models on agency sanctioned tests.

Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

OP, if you want advice on how to word you release, if you intend to use one, Studio 36 maybe able to help.

JLC Images wrote:
1. Talk to a lawyer

2. Do what he says

3. Don't fuck her

Everything else is gravy

So spanking her is ok? Cool.

JLC Images wrote:
1. Talk to a lawyer

2. Do what he says

3. Don't fuck her

Everything else is gravy

I get the idea that laywers aren't as common in the uk. Even so, do you call a lawyer every time a minor contacts you for a shoot ? I wonder how rich lawyers would be if those mall pseudo glamour shot places called a lawyer every time a high school wanabee shows up with her myspace friends...

Paul

JLC Images wrote:
1. Talk to a lawyer

2. Do what he says

3. Don't fuck her

Everything else is gravy

Paul Brecht wrote:
I get the idea that laywers aren't as common in the uk. Even so, do you call a lawyer every time a minor contacts you for a shoot ? I wonder how rich lawyers would be if those mall pseudo glamour shot places called a lawyer every time a high school wanabee shows up with her myspace friends...

Paul

Exactly Paul, not to mention the laws in regards to "f'ing" her and photographing her have nothing at all to do with each other. It's often perfectly legal to "f" someone but completely illegal to photograph it.

Flex Photography wrote:
Models who are underage, (18 in England) cannot legally sign a model release. You need the parent or legal guardian to give their permissin by signing! Also, I would never shoot an underage model without the parent/guardian always present! I would also not consider anything suggestive or at all revealing! Cover your ass!!

(In Scotland 16 is the legal age!)

+1

You need to have written consent from a parent or legal guardian.

mixphotography wrote:
Dear all

I have been in contact with a 16 year old local model to work together on a TFCD photoshoot to expand both our portfolios.

She is listed on MM and appears to have shot before.

Are there any laws / requirements I need to be aware of before agreeing.  Am I covered by a model release?  Does a parent /guardian need to be present / sign model release form?

All advice relating to UK law gratefully appreciated

I can't speak on UK law but in the US state that i live in (Pennsylvania) it is illegal for minors to negotiate contracts. They also can't sign one without a parent or legal guardian's co-signature
I'm assuming the laws where you live are written about the same.
So just make sure you touch base with the model's parents and agree to terms with them before setting anything up.

CGI Images wrote:

What are you talking about??  I've taken pictures of hundreds of "minors" never once made any of them produce ID. 

"sorry we can't go forward until you produce a drivers liscense!!"

"I'm only 9??!"

With respect, sir, I do know what I'm talking about - I am in the UK, and I know about the law and this sort of thing, it's different to how things are in the US.

Under 16's are looked on quite differently by a lot of UK agencies, including Social Services, and I wouldn't take the sort of pictures of a 15 year old that I would happily take of a 16 year old.  We're not talking Senior Portraits here (not a big market at all in the UK), we're talking modelling portfolios, and there is a difference.

Ray Holyer wrote:

With respect, sir, I do know what I'm talking about - I am in the UK, and I know about the law and this sort of thing, it's different to how things are in the US.

Under 16's are looked on quite differently by a lot of UK agencies, including Social Services, and I wouldn't take the sort of pictures of a 15 year old that I would happily take of a 16 year old.  We're not talking Senior Portraits here (not a big market at all in the UK), we're talking modelling portfolios, and there is a difference.

Just my point Ray, we don't know the content, maybe it's just headshots.  But to suggest they need to obtain "photo id". How many 10yr olds have a photo id? 

There are alot of content assumptions being made just because the girl used the word "model".

Jordan Liberty wrote:

+1

You need to have written consent from a parent or legal guardian.

For what exactly, you really think all those portrait places in the malls require parental written consent when some teen girl walks in and lays down $40 and says "I want my portrait taken", come on.