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12last
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 21,947
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


.
Aug 24 09 05:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Digitoxin
Posts: 13,308
Houston, Texas, US


Emeritus wrote:
CLIFF NOTES VERSION, since MM contains so many people who won’t read more than a single paragraph:

People do things in lots of ways.  More ways than you do.  Some of them are OK.  Lighten up.

Does this apply to everyone on MM?

Aug 24 09 05:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5,874
Troy, Michigan, US


Post hidden on Oct 19, 2009 01:48 pm
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Aug 24 09 05:33 pm  Link 
Model
Lauren Klemm
Posts: 482
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


+1

L.
(showing my support)
Aug 24 09 05:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Sweet LillyBee
Posts: 561
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Good points, all... level headed, reasonable and well thought out. No drama involved.
Aug 24 09 05:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeth Claret
Posts: 56,032
Yelm, Washington, US


I love how you've started Cliff Noting your threads. It's amusing, because the good information is unfortunately getting passed over by too many.


I definitely agree about the Trade or Pay thing. I just did a paid shoot this last weekend that was not ALL about the photographer. He made a point to take me out and shoot some things that I've really been wanting to do. It was a small part of the shoot, but still.

I think people just get too caught up in the money aspect. "well, I'm paying for it, so it's all about what I want." Yes and no. Yes, you should get what you want, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask the other person if they don't have any cool ideas. Maybe they thought of something you didn't.
Aug 24 09 05:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lumigraphics
Posts: 32,628
Detroit, Michigan, US


Geez Roger you missed the biggest one-

7. I won't do nudes, don't ask!/You have to get nude or pay me/I won't do nudes for free!

Some people have religious/job-based/moral/controlling SO reasons which they trumpet as a reason why "I won't do nudes" while other people do mostly/solely nude work and won't consider shooting with anyone who won't lose their clothing. Others will trade for clothed work all day long but DEMAND to get paid if they show any skin.
Aug 24 09 05:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeth Claret
Posts: 56,032
Yelm, Washington, US


Lumigraphics wrote:
Geez Roger you missed the biggest one-

7. I won't do nudes, don't ask!/You have to get nude or pay me/I won't do nudes for free!

Some people have religious/job-based/moral/controlling SO reasons which they trumpet as a reason why "I won't do nudes" while other people do mostly/solely nude work and won't consider shooting with anyone who won't lose their clothing. Others will trade for clothed work all day long but DEMAND to get paid if they show any skin.

Liz's Rules: I won't do nudes for Lumigraphics!

Aug 24 09 05:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 21,947
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Lumigraphics wrote:
Geez Roger you missed the biggest one-

7. I won't do nudes, don't ask!/You have to get nude or pay me/I won't do nudes for free!

Some people have religious/job-based/moral/controlling SO reasons which they trumpet as a reason why "I won't do nudes" while other people do mostly/solely nude work and won't consider shooting with anyone who won't lose their clothing. Others will trade for clothed work all day long but DEMAND to get paid if they show any skin.

Yeah, I missed several, and that's a good one.  I was in some danger of writing the sequel to Crime and Punishment, so I quit.

Aug 24 09 05:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,090
Pelham, New York, US


Emeritus wrote:
2.  It’s Trade or Pay, but Not Both!

I see this one a lot, and it completely baffles me.  It’s as though people are utterly unable to grasp that shoots are done for value received, and that value can take many forms, or combination of forms.

Consider the following possibilities:

(a)    A model is willing to pose for $300, no pictures.
(b)    A model is willing to pose for $100 if the photographer will give her one unedited shot.
(c)    A model is willing to pose for pictures only.

What is it about options (a) and (c) that are acceptable, but option (b) gets the hounds to baying about how “I will pay or trade, but not both!”?  Is it really immoral or fattening?  What is it that makes people utterly blind to the possibility of mixing the way someone gets compensated for a shoot?

I know many art nude photographers that do option (b). It works for them.

Aug 24 09 05:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kelly Watkins
Posts: 4,144
San Diego, California, US


Yo TXeritus!! You trying to take all the fun and chaos out of the forums? What's up wit dat??
Aug 24 09 05:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
LizzyB
Posts: 2,169
Rochester, New York, US


I read ALMOST all of it, my eyes started to glaze over a bit by the end wink

Lots of good points. Especially about how a shoot can be a mixture of both tfcd/paid...i'd probably actually prefer that form of compensation.

Thank you for posting.
Aug 24 09 05:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Angel Afterlife
Posts: 317
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia


This is a great topic and I'm glad you brought it up, though you are definitely a softy.  I really don't agree with your opinions, but arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, not matter what you're still retarded.  I have been thinking about a list of rules to post and some of these fit perfectly, although they are in essence the same rule:


2. It’s Trade
I don't pay anybody, my clients do.

3.  No money for gas/kit fees/anything else on trade shoots!
I don't pay fees, my clients do.
I don't ask models, MUA/hair for a fee for Brooks loans, equipment, studio rent, or expenses.

6.  Models Without Experience Should Not Ask to be Paid!
I would never even pay a supermodel, my clients do.
Aug 24 09 06:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SLE Photography
Posts: 68,937
Orlando, Florida, US


Roger, part of the reason it seems so polarized here is that "negotiable" positions don't argue well.

People have (rightfully) pointed out that one of the reasons Republicans have long fared better in debates and with many segments of the public is because they present simple, easy to understand black & white arguments & speak with CERTAINTY... and people crave certainty. 

When people disagree and one side says "Well it's a complex issues with many shades of grey" and the other says "It is THIS WAY!" not only do the absolutists sound more certain but they can make easier arguments.

This comes in to play for many of the arguments here.  You mention escorts, for instance, and I'll take it 'cause it's one I have a *LITTLE* experience arguing here.  Most of those of us in the so-called "no escort" block actually WILL negotiate & make reasonable exceptions depending on the circumstances.  But the reason some of us have taken hard line positions is because of the negative & malicious tone coming from the other side & in responding to them it's FAR easier to take a hard line "THIS IS HOW IT IS" stance in response to them than to make a nuanced argument.  After all, rational discourse is difficult once someone calls you a child molester.

The escort debate is CERTAINLY not the only one where this comes in to play.  You rightfully mention that some photographers take the "no all RAWs" thing as an almost religious issue that offends their sense of propriety, and that attitude makes it hard to discuss rationally.  On top of that the disappointment some people feel when deals aren't honored (as with models who get no images), or those who've gotten bad advice from Sluggos or other "net professionals" about how things "work" muddies the waters.  Add to that the tendency of internet debates to be... well, I don't know a nice word for it, and you get the strident debates here.

In real life MOST of us are reasonable & are willing to be flexible and negotiate.  Unfortunately it doesn't come across in some of the debates here and it can make ALL of us look a little crazy.
Aug 24 09 06:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Digital Czar
Posts: 933
Oak Park, Illinois, US


Digitoxin wrote:

Does this apply to everyone on MM?

IF the idea is to sometime(perhaps in the future) be a professional, or at least "Act like a professional" though you are an amateur, hobbiest, etc., then it should follow that one must strive for those kind of standards, the ones used in the professional end of the business. And the pro end functions with them.

Aug 24 09 06:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jessica Explains It All
Posts: 2,819
Atlanta, Georgia, US


I
Aug 24 09 06:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3,574
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


Thanks for writing this Roger. I have to admit to the same puzzlement you describe. I often tell people asking for advice that all they need to do think about why they want to shoot, what it's worth to them and based on that, negotiate. I'm amazed that people don't seem to get it, and further still are ready to jump down someones throat just because they have a different starting opinion, when they're not aware of the facts of the story.

I now have a thread to point to! smile
Aug 24 09 06:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lumigraphics
Posts: 32,628
Detroit, Michigan, US


Elizabeth Claret wrote:

Liz's Rules: I won't do nudes for Lumigraphics!

You are too far away and too dangerous! Your clutziness might rub off and make ME fall down a ravine or something! yikes

Aug 24 09 06:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lumigraphics
Posts: 32,628
Detroit, Michigan, US


Brett Michael Nelson wrote:
This is a great topic and I'm glad you brought it up, though you are definitely a softy.  I really don't agree with your opinions, but arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, not matter what you're still retarded.  I have been thinking about a list of rules to post and some of these fit perfectly, although they are in essence the same rule:


2. It’s Trade
I don't pay anybody, my clients do.

3.  No money for gas/kit fees/anything else on trade shoots!
I don't pay fees, my clients do.
I don't ask models, MUA/hair for a fee for Brooks loans, equipment, studio rent, or expenses.

6.  Models Without Experience Should Not Ask to be Paid!
I would never even pay a supermodel, my clients do.

Just so you know, people have been brigged for this kind of comment.

Aug 24 09 06:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachel Jay
Posts: 20,333
Hoffman Estates, Illinois, US


Well-written, Roger.  Not that I'd expect anything less wink

I'm with you 100%.  Bravo, sir!!
Aug 24 09 06:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Beaute de LeDeux-Shelly
Posts: 2,867
Ashland, California, US


its wise to be flexible when negotiating
Aug 24 09 07:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patchouli Nyx
Posts: 25,351
Carmel, California, US


I suspect part of the seeming rigidity in internet positions might be due to actual rigidity on a position with merit (like a no escort policy based on the result of bad escort incidents)  OR the positions are held by internet members who like to position their viewpoints as the result of their expertise and  themselves as "authorities" in "the industry."

There's a LOT of territorial stomping on the forums, photographers (mostly) doing intricate quasi0-ritualistic dances trying to demonstrate their rank in the big pecking order of "the industry."   On the internet, it's a bit harder to determine who is a big cheese and who is full of shit.

Many of the fights that break out in the forums are as a result of this power dance.
Aug 24 09 07:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
TrackBelle
Posts: 4,485
Chicago, Illinois, US


This is one of the most coherent and meaningful threads I have ever seen. Bravo!
Aug 24 09 07:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rebel Photo
Posts: 11,446
Florence, South Carolina, US


Too bad the real world doesn't work that way...














there would never be war if it did.
Aug 24 09 07:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 16,474
Fullerton, California, US


The title alone is a giveaway: rigidity in any negotiation is almost always a Bad Idea.

Figure out what both/all parties want, and figure out if there's some way to accomplish that to everyone's satisfaction. If there is, it doesn't matter if it involved bathtubs and lime jello, or a $100 bill. If not, at least you know it's not because someone couldn't think past their own little box.
Aug 24 09 07:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,721
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Hey now, who do you think you are?  If you knew anything about the industry you'd know that real photographers don't negotiate.  Maybe you should spend some more time in the forums before you start lecturing to the pros.  wink tongue
Aug 24 09 07:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeth Claret
Posts: 56,032
Yelm, Washington, US


Lumigraphics wrote:

You are too far away and too dangerous! Your clutziness might rub off and make ME fall down a ravine or something! yikes

Omg, don't get me started, lol. It's not a successful shoot if someone doesn't get hurt! lol

Aug 24 09 07:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael McGowan
Posts: 3,458
Tucson, Arizona, US


Roger, you should be taken out and stoned. Er, somebody oughta buy you a drink? One or the other. But not both.

It's a shame more folks don't realize that it's a big world out there, with lots of creative solutions for situations.
Aug 24 09 08:00 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
PashaPhoto
Posts: 9,726
Brooklyn, New York, US


i finally figured it out, Roger...

i finally know what's wrong with you...

you have a disease... it's called "common sense" and has this nasty sideffect called "logic"...

it's this terrible affliction that's causing you to have headaches when you read the forums... don't worry though, i'm sure a doctor named "new short chunky model who will revolutionize the fashion industry" will offer her services for free to cure you smile
Aug 24 09 08:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,803
Chicago, Illinois, US


SLE Photography wrote:
Roger, part of the reason it seems so polarized here is that "negotiable" positions don't argue well.

People have (rightfully) pointed out that one of the reasons Republicans have long fared better in debates and with many segments of the public is because they present simple, easy to understand black & white arguments & speak with CERTAINTY... and people crave certainty. 

When people disagree and one side says "Well it's a complex issues with many shades of grey" and the other says "It is THIS WAY!" not only do the absolutists sound more certain but they can make easier arguments.

This comes in to play for many of the arguments here.  You mention escorts, for instance, and I'll take it 'cause it's one I have a *LITTLE* experience arguing here.  Most of those of us in the so-called "no escort" block actually WILL negotiate & make reasonable exceptions depending on the circumstances.  But the reason some of us have taken hard line positions is because of the negative & malicious tone coming from the other side & in responding to them it's FAR easier to take a hard line "THIS IS HOW IT IS" stance in response to them than to make a nuanced argument.  After all, rational discourse is difficult once someone calls you a child molester.

The escort debate is CERTAINLY not the only one where this comes in to play.  You rightfully mention that some photographers take the "no all RAWs" thing as an almost religious issue that offends their sense of propriety, and that attitude makes it hard to discuss rationally.  On top of that the disappointment some people feel when deals aren't honored (as with models who get no images), or those who've gotten bad advice from Sluggos or other "net professionals" about how things "work" muddies the waters.  Add to that the tendency of internet debates to be... well, I don't know a nice word for it, and you get the strident debates here.

In real life MOST of us are reasonable & are willing to be flexible and negotiate.  Unfortunately it doesn't come across in some of the debates here and it can make ALL of us look a little crazy.

I think that you and Roger are very intelligent; your mini essays are informative and enlightening reads. However, if you took into account the level of intelligence of the average MM'er, you would soon realize you were preaching to a giant bowl of guava fruit.

Aug 24 09 08:14 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
PashaPhoto
Posts: 9,726
Brooklyn, New York, US


Robert Randall wrote:

I think that you and Roger are very intelligent; your mini essays are informative and enlightening reads. However, if you took into account the level of intelligence of the average MM'er, you would soon realize you were preaching to a giant bowl of guava fruit.

that an insult to guava smile

Aug 24 09 08:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,721
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


SLE Photography wrote:
Roger, part of the reason it seems so polarized here is that "negotiable" positions don't argue well.

People have (rightfully) pointed out that one of the reasons Republicans have long fared better in debates and with many segments of the public is because they present simple, easy to understand black & white arguments & speak with CERTAINTY... and people crave certainty. 

When people disagree and one side says "Well it's a complex issues with many shades of grey" and the other says "It is THIS WAY!" not only do the absolutists sound more certain but they can make easier arguments.

This comes in to play for many of the arguments here.  You mention escorts, for instance, and I'll take it 'cause it's one I have a *LITTLE* experience arguing here.  Most of those of us in the so-called "no escort" block actually WILL negotiate & make reasonable exceptions depending on the circumstances.  But the reason some of us have taken hard line positions is because of the negative & malicious tone coming from the other side & in responding to them it's FAR easier to take a hard line "THIS IS HOW IT IS" stance in response to them than to make a nuanced argument.  After all, rational discourse is difficult once someone calls you a child molester.

The escort debate is CERTAINLY not the only one where this comes in to play.  You rightfully mention that some photographers take the "no all RAWs" thing as an almost religious issue that offends their sense of propriety, and that attitude makes it hard to discuss rationally.  On top of that the disappointment some people feel when deals aren't honored (as with models who get no images), or those who've gotten bad advice from Sluggos or other "net professionals" about how things "work" muddies the waters.  Add to that the tendency of internet debates to be... well, I don't know a nice word for it, and you get the strident debates here.

In real life MOST of us are reasonable & are willing to be flexible and negotiate.  Unfortunately it doesn't come across in some of the debates here and it can make ALL of us look a little crazy.

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." ~ Voltaire

Aug 24 09 08:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SLE Photography
Posts: 68,937
Orlando, Florida, US


Robert Randall wrote:

I think that you and Roger are very intelligent; your mini essays are informative and enlightening reads. However, if you took into account the level of intelligence of the average MM'er, you would soon realize you were preaching to a giant bowl of guava fruit.

Alan & Roger keep telling me to be nice and do outreach & education, so I'm trying.  I figure I might reach a few who're capable of being educated.  smile

Aug 24 09 09:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Richard Dubois
Posts: 8,687
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Emeritus wrote:
6.  Models Without Experience Should Not Ask to be Paid!

Mindful that not everyone shoots agency fashion models, this "rule" preplexes me the most.  I cannot understand the mindset of someone who feels this should be the status quo for models, but it smacks of photographers with overdeveloped egos and underdeveloped portfolios.  Anyway, your response sums it up:

Emeritus wrote:
OK, we get it.  You don’t pay inexperienced models.  Here’s what you don’t get:  lots of people do, including both good amateur and professional photographers and commercial and fashion clients.  There is no Law Of Nature that says models can’t get paid just because they aren’t experienced.

And if they can get paid, at least sometimes, what exactly is wrong with asking to be paid?  Sure, you don’t do it.  You think they don’t deserve it.  Whether you are right or wrong about that is a matter for the market to decide.

And guess what:  A lot of models at all levels who say they want to be paid will accept unpaid shoots if you ask in the right way.  Knee-jerk reactions to the request aren’t helpful to you or the model.

And guess what else?  Some of those models turn out to be talented, and worth every dime they ask for.  Not all, of course, but enough that an automatic rejection may be costing you worthwhile opportunities.

Aug 24 09 10:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SLE Photography
Posts: 68,937
Orlando, Florida, US


Lumigraphics wrote:

Just so you know, people have been brigged for this kind of comment.

And now another one has been.  Which kinda comes back to what I was saying about lack of civility & thought in how one expresses one's self being a major factor in rigidity.

Aug 25 09 01:00 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,438
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


Some things are negotiable; some things are just not. So I offer to Roger's list.....

8. Models, if you don't like the release you are presented with, just change it to suit yourself.

A position which would be non-negotiable for me [and clients as well]. I'll negotiate pay; images; license; a steak dinner; or an optional pregnancy; nearly anything else, but not the text of the releasing document(s). I [or my clients] didn't pay my/our lawyers to write it so a person not trained in law could just arbitrarily change anything in it.

Studio36
Aug 25 09 01:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Keith Goodman
Posts: 771
Talihina, Oklahoma, US


I think a number of posts and bios expressing rigidity are just chest ponding and/or wishful thinking.  The authors are saying they are so good at what they do that there is a line around the block of people who want to work with them despite their overbearing natures or hard and fast rules.  Perhaps it is like the myth of choosing the surgeon with the worst bedside manner because if he is that ugly to his patients he must be good.

Great post Roger.
Aug 25 09 01:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brooks Avenue Studio
Posts: 578
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Tom Brokaw
It's easy to make a buck. It's a lot tougher to make a difference.
Aug 25 09 01:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BYS
Posts: 11,614
Paris, Île-de-France, France


People do things in lots of ways.  More ways than you do.  Some of them are OK.  Lighten up.

i don't really understand why if you want my pictures you will change the rules that make me get these pictures

i don't negociate , never , one anything that could denature the final result ,
hopefully it is my only rule lol
but a take or leave it

anything else is negociable 

tb
Aug 25 09 01:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T-D-L
Posts: 9,979
Los Angeles, California, US


Well I just want to say thank you for this informative and well versed post Roger smile  Your thoughts and insights into the world of photography and modeling are always appreciated.  I hope more people read this and take something positive from it.  I wish you'd write a book for photographers....
Aug 25 09 01:51 am  Link  Quote 
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