Emeritus wrote:
CLIFF NOTES VERSION, since MM contains so many people who won’t read more than a single paragraph:

People do things in lots of ways.  More ways than you do.  Some of them are OK.  Lighten up.

Does this apply to everyone on MM?

Lumigraphics wrote:
Geez Roger you missed the biggest one-

7. I won't do nudes, don't ask!/You have to get nude or pay me/I won't do nudes for free!

Some people have religious/job-based/moral/controlling SO reasons which they trumpet as a reason why "I won't do nudes" while other people do mostly/solely nude work and won't consider shooting with anyone who won't lose their clothing. Others will trade for clothed work all day long but DEMAND to get paid if they show any skin.

Liz's Rules: I won't do nudes for Lumigraphics!

Lumigraphics wrote:
Geez Roger you missed the biggest one-

7. I won't do nudes, don't ask!/You have to get nude or pay me/I won't do nudes for free!

Some people have religious/job-based/moral/controlling SO reasons which they trumpet as a reason why "I won't do nudes" while other people do mostly/solely nude work and won't consider shooting with anyone who won't lose their clothing. Others will trade for clothed work all day long but DEMAND to get paid if they show any skin.

Yeah, I missed several, and that's a good one.  I was in some danger of writing the sequel to Crime and Punishment, so I quit.

Emeritus wrote:
2.  It’s Trade or Pay, but Not Both!

I see this one a lot, and it completely baffles me.  It’s as though people are utterly unable to grasp that shoots are done for value received, and that value can take many forms, or combination of forms.

Consider the following possibilities:

(a)    A model is willing to pose for $300, no pictures.
(b)    A model is willing to pose for $100 if the photographer will give her one unedited shot.
(c)    A model is willing to pose for pictures only.

What is it about options (a) and (c) that are acceptable, but option (b) gets the hounds to baying about how “I will pay or trade, but not both!”?  Is it really immoral or fattening?  What is it that makes people utterly blind to the possibility of mixing the way someone gets compensated for a shoot?

I know many art nude photographers that do option (b). It works for them.

Digitoxin wrote:

Does this apply to everyone on MM?

IF the idea is to sometime(perhaps in the future) be a professional, or at least "Act like a professional" though you are an amateur, hobbiest, etc., then it should follow that one must strive for those kind of standards, the ones used in the professional end of the business. And the pro end functions with them.

Elizabeth Claret wrote:

Liz's Rules: I won't do nudes for Lumigraphics!

You are too far away and too dangerous! Your clutziness might rub off and make ME fall down a ravine or something!

Brett Michael Nelson wrote:
This is a great topic and I'm glad you brought it up, though you are definitely a softy.  I really don't agree with your opinions, but arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, not matter what you're still retarded.  I have been thinking about a list of rules to post and some of these fit perfectly, although they are in essence the same rule:


2. It’s Trade
I don't pay anybody, my clients do.

3.  No money for gas/kit fees/anything else on trade shoots!
I don't pay fees, my clients do.
I don't ask models, MUA/hair for a fee for Brooks loans, equipment, studio rent, or expenses.

6.  Models Without Experience Should Not Ask to be Paid!
I would never even pay a supermodel, my clients do.

Just so you know, people have been brigged for this kind of comment.

Lumigraphics wrote:

You are too far away and too dangerous! Your clutziness might rub off and make ME fall down a ravine or something!

Omg, don't get me started, lol. It's not a successful shoot if someone doesn't get hurt!

SLE Photography wrote:
Roger, part of the reason it seems so polarized here is that "negotiable" positions don't argue well.

People have (rightfully) pointed out that one of the reasons Republicans have long fared better in debates and with many segments of the public is because they present simple, easy to understand black & white arguments & speak with CERTAINTY... and people crave certainty. 

When people disagree and one side says "Well it's a complex issues with many shades of grey" and the other says "It is THIS WAY!" not only do the absolutists sound more certain but they can make easier arguments.

This comes in to play for many of the arguments here.  You mention escorts, for instance, and I'll take it 'cause it's one I have a *LITTLE* experience arguing here.  Most of those of us in the so-called "no escort" block actually WILL negotiate & make reasonable exceptions depending on the circumstances.  But the reason some of us have taken hard line positions is because of the negative & malicious tone coming from the other side & in responding to them it's FAR easier to take a hard line "THIS IS HOW IT IS" stance in response to them than to make a nuanced argument.  After all, rational discourse is difficult once someone calls you a child molester.

The escort debate is CERTAINLY not the only one where this comes in to play.  You rightfully mention that some photographers take the "no all RAWs" thing as an almost religious issue that offends their sense of propriety, and that attitude makes it hard to discuss rationally.  On top of that the disappointment some people feel when deals aren't honored (as with models who get no images), or those who've gotten bad advice from Sluggos or other "net professionals" about how things "work" muddies the waters.  Add to that the tendency of internet debates to be... well, I don't know a nice word for it, and you get the strident debates here.

In real life MOST of us are reasonable & are willing to be flexible and negotiate.  Unfortunately it doesn't come across in some of the debates here and it can make ALL of us look a little crazy.

I think that you and Roger are very intelligent; your mini essays are informative and enlightening reads. However, if you took into account the level of intelligence of the average MM'er, you would soon realize you were preaching to a giant bowl of guava fruit.

Robert Randall wrote:

I think that you and Roger are very intelligent; your mini essays are informative and enlightening reads. However, if you took into account the level of intelligence of the average MM'er, you would soon realize you were preaching to a giant bowl of guava fruit.

that an insult to guava

SLE Photography wrote:
Roger, part of the reason it seems so polarized here is that "negotiable" positions don't argue well.

People have (rightfully) pointed out that one of the reasons Republicans have long fared better in debates and with many segments of the public is because they present simple, easy to understand black & white arguments & speak with CERTAINTY... and people crave certainty. 

When people disagree and one side says "Well it's a complex issues with many shades of grey" and the other says "It is THIS WAY!" not only do the absolutists sound more certain but they can make easier arguments.

This comes in to play for many of the arguments here.  You mention escorts, for instance, and I'll take it 'cause it's one I have a *LITTLE* experience arguing here.  Most of those of us in the so-called "no escort" block actually WILL negotiate & make reasonable exceptions depending on the circumstances.  But the reason some of us have taken hard line positions is because of the negative & malicious tone coming from the other side & in responding to them it's FAR easier to take a hard line "THIS IS HOW IT IS" stance in response to them than to make a nuanced argument.  After all, rational discourse is difficult once someone calls you a child molester.

The escort debate is CERTAINLY not the only one where this comes in to play.  You rightfully mention that some photographers take the "no all RAWs" thing as an almost religious issue that offends their sense of propriety, and that attitude makes it hard to discuss rationally.  On top of that the disappointment some people feel when deals aren't honored (as with models who get no images), or those who've gotten bad advice from Sluggos or other "net professionals" about how things "work" muddies the waters.  Add to that the tendency of internet debates to be... well, I don't know a nice word for it, and you get the strident debates here.

In real life MOST of us are reasonable & are willing to be flexible and negotiate.  Unfortunately it doesn't come across in some of the debates here and it can make ALL of us look a little crazy.

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." ~ Voltaire

Robert Randall wrote:

I think that you and Roger are very intelligent; your mini essays are informative and enlightening reads. However, if you took into account the level of intelligence of the average MM'er, you would soon realize you were preaching to a giant bowl of guava fruit.

Alan & Roger keep telling me to be nice and do outreach & education, so I'm trying.  I figure I might reach a few who're capable of being educated. 

Emeritus wrote:
6.  Models Without Experience Should Not Ask to be Paid!

Mindful that not everyone shoots agency fashion models, this "rule" preplexes me the most.  I cannot understand the mindset of someone who feels this should be the status quo for models, but it smacks of photographers with overdeveloped egos and underdeveloped portfolios.  Anyway, your response sums it up:

Emeritus wrote:
OK, we get it.  You don’t pay inexperienced models.  Here’s what you don’t get:  lots of people do, including both good amateur and professional photographers and commercial and fashion clients.  There is no Law Of Nature that says models can’t get paid just because they aren’t experienced.

And if they can get paid, at least sometimes, what exactly is wrong with asking to be paid?  Sure, you don’t do it.  You think they don’t deserve it.  Whether you are right or wrong about that is a matter for the market to decide.

And guess what:  A lot of models at all levels who say they want to be paid will accept unpaid shoots if you ask in the right way.  Knee-jerk reactions to the request aren’t helpful to you or the model.

And guess what else?  Some of those models turn out to be talented, and worth every dime they ask for.  Not all, of course, but enough that an automatic rejection may be costing you worthwhile opportunities.

Lumigraphics wrote:

Just so you know, people have been brigged for this kind of comment.

And now another one has been.  Which kinda comes back to what I was saying about lack of civility & thought in how one expresses one's self being a major factor in rigidity.