David Cajio Photography wrote:
I have no issues with a man being pretty or feeling more comfortable as a woman.  I do have a problem with a man representing a woman in the public under false pretenses.

Yeah, because people are just ever so accepting of crossdressers in the first place.

Makes you wonder how many other beautiful "women" you know who aren't.

Elizabeth Claret wrote:
Makes you wonder how many other beautiful "women" you know who aren't.

Yeah, I know a dude who likes to fool people into thinking he's a chick. I used to blow his cover all the time. Pissed off dudes, sometimes.. lol

Elizabeth Claret wrote:
Yeah, because people are just ever so accepting of crossdressers in the first place.

Makes you wonder how many other beautiful "women" you know who aren't.

I never said the world was accepting, I never said the truth is easy, but I would never teach my children or encourage a role model that children look up to, that it is okay to lie, because it "easier" and people will "accept it."  But I guess we know where you stand on the issue.  Good to know.

Elizabeth Claret wrote:

Yeah, because people are just ever so accepting of crossdressers in the first place.

Makes you wonder how many other beautiful "women" you know who aren't.

I know a couple of TG (male and female) and some are mighty convincing. Some of them are better and being female than most girls i know!

David Cajio Photography wrote:
I never said the world was accepting, I never said the truth is easy, but I would never teach my children or encourage a role model that children look up to, that it is okay to lie, because it "easier" and people will "accept it."  But I guess we know where you stand on the issue.  Good to know.

I don't think it's acceptable to lie to people. However, it's not really the best decision to bring your children up naive either to think they can get through life and be successful by not playing that game.

You know damn well that (s)he would not be even an eighth as popular as (s)he is if (s)he had been 100% honest from the start.

I don't condone lying, but I can understand why people do it. It's great to teach your children how the world should be, but you should also not hide your children from how the world IS.

Elizabeth Claret wrote:

I don't think it's acceptable to lie to people. However, it's not really the best decision to bring your children up naive either to think they can get through life and be successful y not playing that game.

You know damn well that (s)he would not be even an eighth as popular as (s)he is if (s)he had been 100% honest from the start.

I don't condone lying, but I can understand why people do it.

OOOOOOOOoooh.  Now that makes sense.  Its not okay to lie, unless it will make you more popular -- then it is.  I get it now, thank you.

Miss Murder Photography wrote:

I know a couple of TG (male and female) and some are mighty convincing. Some of them are better and being female than most girls i know!

I'm fairly convinced that I'm a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body.

That makes sense, right?

David Cajio Photography wrote:

OOOOOOOOoooh.  Now that makes sense.  Its not okay to lie, unless it will make you more popular -- then it is.  I get it now, thank you.

Yes. Please. Continue to twist my words, and ignore the parts where I said I don't condone lying.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

OOOOOOOOoooh.  Now that makes sense.  Its not okay to lie, unless it will make you more popular -- then it is.  I get it now, thank you.

I would suggest that if this is the way you debate issues, your children have other things to worry about.

Elizabeth Claret wrote:



Yes. Please. Continue to twist my words, and ignore the parts where I said I don't condone lying.

I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate here, because my original statement was that I had an issue with a role model lying about his gender, to which you quote and justified said person's action.

There is, also, a man that has recently been featured as a woman in Vogue and disowned by her entire family, and she has been honest about all of it from the start including her sex change that she is going through.  Her dad is a pro soccer player and she has been in the limelight her entire life and she didn't feel it was necessary to lie, so I'm having a very hard time seeing your point here is all.

MJF Artworks wrote:

I would suggest that if this is the way you debate issues, your children have other things to worry about.

I apologize if the statement: "but I would never teach my children" was misleading, I do not have children, this was meant as-in when/if I had children I would not teach them this way.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate here, because my original statement was that I had an issue with a role model lying about his gender, to which you quote and justified said person's action.

There is, also, a man that has recently been featured as a woman in Vogue and disowned by her entire family, and she has been honest about all of it from the start including her sex change that she is going through.  Her dad is a pro soccer player and she has been in the limelight her entire life and she didn't feel it was necessary to lie, so I'm having a very hard time seeing your point here is all.

He/ She was discovered by a modeling agency and everything else fell into place.
She didn't know that she would become a role model.
Why does it matter if he lived as a women? Unless you're planning on sticking your dick in "her" it has no direct effect on you.

The Duchess of Dork wrote:

I'm fairly convinced that I'm a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body.

That makes sense, right?

i'm not even sure what gender i am, mentally, sometimes.

Envy wrote:
...Unless you're planning on sticking your dick in "her" it has no direct effect on you.

That is my secret plan "wrings hands", I just need to see what sort of equipment is under those drawers.

Or, we can stick to second base

David Cajio Photography wrote:
I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate trolling here, ...

FTFY

Shizam1 wrote:

That is my secret plan "wrings hands", I just need to see what sort of equipment is under those drawers.

Or, we can stick to second base

Envy wrote:

He/ She was discovered by a modeling agency and everything else fell into place.
She didn't know that she would become a role model.
Why does it matter if he lived as a women? Unless you're planning on sticking your dick in "her" it has no direct effect on you.

That is a valid point, but I know there are a lot of confused young men in Japan right now wondering what it means that they were attracted to a man and I'm sure this has created an awkward situation that could have been avoided.

Like I said I have no issues with her lifestyle choices, but I don't agree with the lying, she knew she was a man and was pretending to be a woman, she only admitted it after she had been found out, instead of coming forward from the start.

But, meh, I digress, I won't argue, I spose it isn't really any of my business now is it?

David Cajio Photography wrote:

I never said the world was accepting, I never said the truth is easy, but I would never teach my children or encourage a role model that children look up to, that it is okay to lie, because it "easier" and people will "accept it."  But I guess we know where you stand on the issue.  Good to know.

so, if someone is born a male or "in between" but the parents choose to raise a male, yet he feels like a she inside, is he lying by pretending to be a man or being  woman?

Wara Model wrote:

so, if someone is born a male or "in between" but the parents choose to raise a male, yet he feels like a she inside, is he lying by pretending to be a man or being  woman?

Apparently, people are against discussion and conversation in this thread, because I was quoted as "trolling" when I was simply trying to debate my opinion, so I won't comment any further on my thoughts.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

That is a valid point, but I know there are a lot of confused young men in Japan right now wondering what it means that they were attracted to a man and I'm sure this has created an awkward situation that could have been avoided.

Like I said I have no issues with her lifestyle choices, but I don't agree with the lying, she knew she was a man and was pretending to be a woman, she only admitted it after she had been found out, instead of coming forward from the start.

But, meh, I digress, I won't argue, I spose it isn't really any of my business now is it?

Are you serious? You can't possibly be this diluted.
They were not attracted to a man, they are attracted to an illusion of a woman.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

Apparently, people are against discussion and conversation in this thread, because I was quoted as "trolling" when I was simply trying to debate my opinion, so I won't comment any further on my thoughts.

boohoo. It's the internet, it happens.
If you have a point of view, stick up for it; I prefer logical discussions and debates. I did not throw the t word at you, I asked a question since I'm interested in your answer.

The Duchess of Dork wrote:
Yeah, I know a dude who likes to fool people into thinking he's a chick. I used to blow his cover all the time. Pissed off dudes, sometimes.. lol

Can work both ways.  Be careful that you don't have any skeletons.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

Apparently, people are against discussion and conversation in this thread, because I was quoted as "trolling" when I was simply trying to debate my opinion, so I won't comment any further on my thoughts.

I had no idea I had such power.  I'll use it more wisely in the future.

Seriously, if you feel strongly on the subject then stand up for yourself.  Don't let one person being dismissive cause you to back down.  I expressed my own opinion in a simple and rude way.  That's just a reflection of my mood at the moment.  I certainly didn't want you to feel that your thoughts were not welcome.  What I wanted was to show you how your words were coming across to at least one person, to give you pause to think about how you're presenting yourself.  And yes, I knew that I was presenting myself rudely - I rarely do that, but sometimes it comes out.

Wara Model wrote:

boohoo. It's the internet, it happens.
If you have a point of view, stick up for it; I prefer logical discussions and debates. I did not throw the t word at you, I asked a question since I'm interested in your answer.

I think the person can live their life as they see fit, but when it comes to being in a position like the aforementioned they need to be honest about whatever their physical traits may be.

What if you hired someone to watch women's dressing rooms and you later find out that person was a he.  Where do you draw the line?  Granted this is an extreme example, but my point is with all the secrecy its only a matter of time before someone is going to have to draw that line.

I guess I am naive, because I'm the type of person that just believes in being honest and upfront, even if the cost is heavy and a lot to bear, I do it anyways, because I feel better about and sleep soundly at night.

CodyMyers wrote:
Is it strange that I find "it" more attractive now?

No.  I saw a pic recently of a very sexy model on MM in which she has a very convincing penis added to the photo of her.  I'd actually want to deep-throat her, if it were a real cock.

On the other hand, I see more strange things before breakfast than most people see in a year.

And don't say "it."  Say "she."  That's how she identifies herself, so respect that - unless she says otherwise.

Envy wrote:

Are you serious? You can't possibly be this diluted.
They were not attracted to a man, they are attracted to an illusion of a woman.

I have issues with this argument, because:

Imagine you are a vegetarian, someone makes chocolate cake and lies to you and tells you its chocolate cake, you love it, later they tell you there were beef and poultry products in it.  You are okay with them lying because you liked the illusion of it being chocolate?

David Cajio Photography wrote:

I think the person can live their life as they see fit, but when it comes to being in a position like the aforementioned they need to be honest about whatever their physical traits may be.

What if you hired someone to watch women's dressing rooms and you later find out that person was a he.  Where do you draw the line?  Granted this is an extreme example, but my point is with all the secrecy its only a matter of time before someone is going to have to draw that line.

I guess I am naive, because I'm the type of person that just believes in being honest and upfront, even if the cost is heavy and a lot to bear, I do it anyways, because I feel better about and sleep soundly at night.

OK, again, I present you with this situation-

Yes, you are born a male, but you FEEL like a female inside. It feels wrong to change in the men's locker room. It feels wrong to have the body you do.

What then?

I'm in full agreement that we should be more honest with ourselves and those around us.

The Duchess of Dork wrote:
Dunno how many people are familliar with her...

I'm not.

Wara Model wrote:

OK, again, I present you with this situation-

Yes, you are born a male, but you FEEL like a female inside. It feels wrong to change in the men's locker room. It feels wrong to have the body you do.

What then?

I'm in full agreement that we should be more honest with ourselves and those around us.

I'm not sure there IS a right answer.  I'm not even sure my opinion is right.  I agree that a person cannot help how they are wired, but I know they are able to be honest about it, that is all I was saying, that I prefer the honest over secrecy approach -- I have no issues with how one chooses to reflect their gender so long as they are honest about it.

David Cajio Photography wrote:
I think the person can live their life as they see fit, but when it comes to being in a position like the aforementioned they need to be honest about whatever their physical traits may be.

What if you hired someone to watch women's dressing rooms and you later find out that person was a he.  Where do you draw the line?  Granted this is an extreme example, but my point is with all the secrecy its only a matter of time before someone is going to have to draw that line.

I guess I am naive, because I'm the type of person that just believes in being honest and upfront, even if the cost is heavy and a lot to bear, I do it anyways, because I feel better about and sleep soundly at night.

What if you hired a person and later found out he was gay?
What if you hired a person and later found out she was a Southern Baptist?
What if you hired a person and later found out he was a Libertarian?
What if ...

I just shrug.

Yes, strive for honesty, integrity, responsibility, forgiveness, empathy, loyalty, and so on.  Recognize, though, that in some cases society isn't ready to handle it, and in other cases it's none of anyone else's business, and in still others circumstances conspire to prevent you from living up to ideals.  I try to be polite at all times.  I slipped and was rude to you.  Can you forgive me for that?  Would you be able to forgive me even if I didn't recognize my mistake?

People are fallible, people are hypocrites, and however much you strive for "goodness" there will always be something missing.

If you can forgive me, or other people, why not forgive this person for what you perceive as a kind of sin?

Forgiveness is a crucial virtue.  If you practice honesty, forgiveness should also be on your list.

/end sermon

David Cajio Photography wrote:

I'm not sure there IS a right answer.  I'm not even sure my opinion is right.  I agree that a person cannot help how they are wired, but I know they are able to be honest about it, that is all I was saying, that I prefer the honest over secrecy approach -- I have no issues with how one chooses to reflect their gender so long as they are honest about it.

OK, I think I get where you're coming from now, which is MUCH different than how I think most people initially understood your statement.

There is no right answer. It is up to each individual what is right.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

I have issues with this argument, because:

Imagine you are a vegetarian, someone makes chocolate cake and lies to you and tells you its chocolate cake, you love it, later they tell you there were beef and poultry products in it.  You are okay with them lying because you liked the illusion of it being chocolate?

That would effect YOU personally.

How is her decision to be a woman effecting anyone other than her?