Renard Photography wrote:

Of course I understand the difference, but as this is a site for conversation I would like to point out, that when I first worked with Taylor she was neither signed nor a star and her mother called me.  I had no prejudice other than the ones mentioned, I will not work with goofs, pimps or the like, but this was a genuine attempt to promote a young talent and I cannot tell you how many of those calls turn happily into career long relationships.  Just saying, it is better to keep an open mind than to label an entire group of people as always a negative. 
Always keep an open mind.

I'm thinking this was a TF shoot.   You are a professional commercial shooter and my bet is Taylor's mom paid you.   If someone is paying me they can bring the Prophet Jesus.   However for a general unpaid test shoot, no.   No 'managers' or 'agents' no escorts and no friends.   Here the OP even allows those folks.   The manager could have come and just been a friend.   This manager bs is usually a waste of time for all concerned.  A few weeks ago a manager type asked me about doing some free head shots of one of his girls.

I said, no.   Find someone and pay them.  A smaller issue is also this.  If a model has a manager and plans to use your work beyond Facebook or here.   Photographers need to know that.  IMOH it violates the ideal of a unpaid test shoot.   key here is this.   You are actually a working photographer.   Most of us aren't.

AJScalzitti wrote:
People have little tolerance for "managers" because models don't normally have or need managers, they may have bookers from an agency but that is about it.  Usually these so called managers are just in the way (if not a total sluggo) and add nothing.  I like others just click next or call an agency.

Really?  I would think that all underage would-be models would have a "manager", probably a parent. 

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:
OP is talking about Models and Manager...NOT photographers. Never said anything about a photographer...wow...and a manager cannot provide you with a Job...only an agency can. Ok..we on the same page now? Nothing to do with photography....got it. never said it.

Y'see -- if you are not a model & you are not a manager, what do you care?  The OP is a photographer who is uncomfortable with a model having a manager.  The model is happy (I presume); the manager is happy -- their arrangement is none of your business.  It's okay to choose not to work with a model, but it's not okay to imply that no model should ever have a manager.

I also get the sense that the OP wasn't talking about high-end, experienced, professional models -- I got the impression that we was talking about less experienced models (probably TF* models).  Here's a snippet from the OP:

SitronStudio wrote:
Has anyone heard of such a thing? I've recently cancelled shoots with two models on here who claimed they had "managers". These were "models" who only had cell pics in their ports.

Doesn't sound like it's a choice between a "manager" and an agency -- it sounds like a parent looking out for a wannabe model.

Screamvina wrote:

Screamvina wrote:
Hmmmmm..... I don't mean to derail the thread, but we do group shoots and we have one person responsible for coordinating with the models, the photographers, the make-up artists, the hair stylists, and the venue. Would that be considered a "manager"?

Career no. Large project yes. The person who organizes behind the scenes for plays is a "stage manager". What do you call the person who does that with large scale group photo shoots?

"Event Organizer" or perhaps "Cat Herder"

ForeverFotos wrote:
I have to assume that you haven't had much experience with the type of "sluggos" I referred to, or that you are acting as a manager yourself. Most photographers on here can't relate any positive experiences with a "model manager".

Your statement indicates that you consider yourself a white knight, and are ready to defend the models at any price.

I think you are reading an awful lot into my post.  I invite you to reread the OP -- he's talking about inexperienced models (with cell phone images) and a "manager" who is obviously the model's mother.  I always assumed that "sluggos" were something quite different from mothers.

Renard Photography wrote:
once again the blind leading the blind and it seems most of you have no clue:

As people increasingly do many things, from acting, music, dancing it not unlikely that one would encounter managers.  They are not "pimps" and are quite often the only reason a talent makes it in hard times.

The loyalty in Hollywood is far greater to the managers than it is to the agents.  You might want to investigate.

I see no problem with having an agent and or manager or publicist in any transaction as long as they are pros, nor should you.

Most seriously talented people will have a team behind them, from the very start, what is the problem????  And yes it could be parents, tell Taylor Swift you won't work with her because she has her mom as manager. 

Amateurs, wether photographers, models, managers, stylists or whatever are to be avoided, but if any of you think this attitude of belittling managers prepares you for the real industry and other than shooting some chick on a beach you are dead wrong and really not understanding the way things work in today's climate.

Trouble is, there is the real world.
And then there is MM.

"Y'see -- if you are not a model & you are not a manager, what do you care?  The OP is a photographer who is uncomfortable with a model having a manager.  The model is happy (I presume); the manager is happy -- their arrangement is none of your business.  It's okay to choose not to work with a model, but it's not okay to imply that no model should ever have a manager."



I am not uncomfortable with a model having a manager! I'm uncomfortable with a model pretending they have a manager!

Looknsee Photography wrote:

AJScalzitti wrote:
People have little tolerance for "managers" because models don't normally have or need managers, they may have bookers from an agency but that is about it.  Usually these so called managers are just in the way (if not a total sluggo) and add nothing.  I like others just click next or call an agency.

Really?  I would think that all underage would-be models would have a "manager", probably a parent. 

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:
OP is talking about Models and Manager...NOT photographers. Never said anything about a photographer...wow...and a manager cannot provide you with a Job...only an agency can. Ok..we on the same page now? Nothing to do with photography....got it. never said it.

Y'see -- if you are not a model & you are not a manager, what do you care?  The OP is a photographer who is uncomfortable with a model having a manager.  The model is happy (I presume); the manager is happy -- their arrangement is none of your business.  It's okay to choose not to work with a model, but it's not okay to imply that no model should ever have a manager.

I also get the sense that the OP wasn't talking about high-end, experienced, professional models -- I got the impression that we was talking about less experienced models (probably TF* models).  Here's a snippet from the OP:


Doesn't sound like it's a choice between a "manager" and an agency -- it sounds like a parent looking out for a wannabe model.

The OP also made clear that one model was of age yet had her mother try to set up their shoot and act as a manager.   Some shooters may be comfortable with that.   I would not be and it seems the OP wasn't either.   I would rather deal directly with the model.   No go betweens  to muck things up and in the past its been that for me managers got details wrong and ruined shoots.   Last week a nude model told me how a former manager screwed up a shoot for her.

I don't shoot minors but if I did would expect to deal with parents.   This is in part why, I decline work with under 18 year old models.  I also have found every model manager I've ever run into to be either nearly a pimp or a idiot or both.

The Trousseau wrote:
so many flippant responses running through my head for this one: 

"Manager?  I need a manager!  Someone who can managing my house cleaning!"

"What do these managers make?  I mean, 10 percent of nothing is... let's see... "

"I like to work with people who manage themselves."

"What do these managers make?  I mean, 10 percent of nothing is... let's see... "


So, what is 10% of TFP for a manager ?

Tony Lawrence wrote:

The OP also made clear that one model was of age yet had her mother try to set up their shoot and act as a manager.   Some shooters may be comfortable with that.   I would not be and it seems the OP wasn't either.   I would rather deal directly with the model.   No go betweens  to muck things up and in the past its been that for me managers got details wrong and ruined shoots.   Last week a nude model told me how a former manager screwed up a shoot for her.

I don't shoot minors but if I did would expect to deal with parents.   This is in part why, I decline work with under 18 year old models.  I also have found every model manager I've ever run into to be either nearly a pimp or a idiot or both.

There were at least a few model managers in the Chicago area who interfered with shoots scheduled by the models they supposedly managed. I had direct experience with one of them, so I am voting "NO" to internet managed models.

GeM Photographic wrote:
"Event Organizer" or perhaps "Cat Herder"

Hee hee! We've mentioned the term "Cat Herder" :-D

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Really?  I would think that all underage would-be models would have a "manager", probably a parent. 


Y'see -- if you are not a model & you are not a manager, what do you care?  The OP is a photographer who is uncomfortable with a model having a manager.  The model is happy (I presume); the manager is happy -- their arrangement is none of your business.  It's okay to choose not to work with a model, but it's not okay to imply that no model should ever have a manager.

I also get the sense that the OP wasn't talking about high-end, experienced, professional models -- I got the impression that we was talking about less experienced models (probably TF* models).  Here's a snippet from the OP:


Doesn't sound like it's a choice between a "manager" and an agency -- it sounds like a parent looking out for a wannabe model.

GeM Photographic wrote:
"Event Organizer" or perhaps "Cat Herder"

I'd be willing to admit to 'the first option'... although some breeds of cats are pretty cool...

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I would rather deal directly with the model.   No go betweens to muck things up and in the past its been that for me managers got details wrong and ruined shoots.   Last week a nude model told me how a former manager screwed up a shoot for her.

I don't shoot minors but if I did would expect to deal with parents.   This is in part why, I decline work with under 18 year old models.  I also have found every model manager I've ever run into to be either nearly a pimp or a idiot or both.

...  "rather deal directly with the model",
...  "in the past ... managers got details wrong and ruined shoots".
I think all that's fine.  You can choose whom you want to work with, using whatever criteria is relevant to you.

But you'd rather deal directly with the model, but I can equally understand that a model might rather have someone else deal with the photographer.  Like I said in my original post, some young (underage or not) models are not comfortable checking out a photographer, and many might not be comfortable negotiating terms.  So, I think it's quite understandable that some models might want a trusted manager deal with all those details.


"I also have found every model manager I've ever run into to be either nearly a pimp or a idiot or both".  That's the only thing in the post that makes me uncomfortable.  I believe that many models' managers are often a parent, who is unlikely not an idiot or a pimp.  Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe that in some cases a manager provides a useful service both to the model and indirectly to the photographer.  The manager makes the model feel safe & keeps the model organized & on time.  Ain't that a good thing?

Looknsee Photography wrote:

...  "rather deal directly with the model",
...  "in the past ... managers got details wrong and ruined shoots".
I think all that's fine.  You can choose whom you want to work with, using whatever criteria is relevant to you.

But you'd rather deal directly with the model, but I can equally understand that a model might rather have someone else deal with the photographer.  Like I said in my original post, some young (underage or not) models are not comfortable checking out a photographer, and many might not be comfortable negotiating terms.  So, I think it's quite understandable that some models might want a trusted manager deal with all those details.


"I also have found every model manager I've ever run into to be either nearly a pimp or a idiot or both".  That's the only thing in the post that makes me uncomfortable.  I believe that many models' managers are often a parent, who is unlikely not an idiot or a pimp.  Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe that in some cases a manager provides a useful service both to the model and indirectly to the photographer.  The manager makes the model feel safe & keeps the model organized & on time.  Ain't that a good thing?

Models who feel the need to have managers should have them.   I simply won't work with them and it seems that most other members who post on this won't either.  Yep, your a optimist as managers provide no needed anything for models expect to be a pain in the as^.   I prefer to work with adults who can handle their business on their own.  Again my expediences have been these clowns couldn't manage a lemonade stand much less a models career.

Docta Shock Photografix wrote:
Have dealt with plenty and never had a problem, A non-issue for me

So there is such a thing as a legitimate Model Manager? Is that a Philly thing? I know markets differ, but none of the other posts seem to mention dealing with a legitimate Model Manager. I wouldn't have a problem dealing with one if the model had a career and a need for a manager. What I'm referring to which many people have missed are model wannabees pretending they have a manager. That I won't deal with. Even a parent (unless the model is a minor, then I insist they accompany the model to the shoot) who's looking out for their child. If said child is over 18, I expect them to have enough self-confidence to make their own decisions. If they don't, I don't want to work with them. Self -confidence is something I look for in a model, and it's not easily faked in front of the camera.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Models who feel the need to have managers should have them.   I simply won't work with them and it seems that most other members who post on this won't either.  Yep, your a optimist as managers provide no needed anything for models expect to be a pain in the as^.   I prefer to work with adults who can handle their business on their own.  Again my expediences have been these clowns couldn't manage a lemonade stand much less a models career.

+1

SitronStudio wrote:
Has anyone heard of such a thing? I've recently cancelled shoots with two models on here who claimed they had "managers". These were "models" who only had cell pics in their ports. ...

You might want to rethink your strategy of going after models who only have cell phone pics.

Curt at photoworks wrote:

You might want to rethink your strategy of going after models who only have cell phone pics.

I love cell phone pics! If you look good in a cell phone pic, I know we've got a good chance of getting some good shots in the studio.

Lottie Bamford wrote:
i always take a friend to my first shoots with a new photographers,

As a two very close friends of mine, sadly got abused by the same photographer,
So i just make sure im going to be safe, they dont get invovled in my shoots,

If allowed they'll sit in the cornor, Model managers do exsit in the uk, as ive heard of many, but as people have said most of them are ''Controling boyfriends'',

But i think models should stand on there own two feet and sort there own shoots out

I have no problem with a model bringing a friend, I often suggest it if they're driving a distance. It's when the friend is pretending to be a "manager" that I have problems.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
Every time I've come across an internet model with a manager, it's basically been code for escort boyfriend.

I agree.  I suppose I don't mind when they tell me they want to bring an escort, although I prefer not boyfriends, but when they hide it and try to impress themselves by claiming it's their "manager" it's just ridiculous. Like the OP said, silly.

Fotographahaulic wrote:
Until a Model, Actor, Musician or even a Baseball player has made a name for themselves . . . I can't see why a manager is required,

In LA, NY and Orlando, in almost all cases, an actor will have a manager before they have an agent.  It is very difficult to put together the reel you need to be taken seriously.  It requires an understanding of the business to get from point A to point B.  There are very few successful actors who have broken in on their own.

Musicians often have a manager, even from day one.  If you read the California statute covering talent agents (along with the legislative history), they had to write some exceptions into the statutes to cover managers for musicians.  As an example, managers can get work for bands, whereas a manager can't get parts for actors.   A good manager is an essential element for a musician.

On the other hand, most models do not need a manager. In general, it is handled by their agent (although in some situations, professional management can help a model get started).   LIkewise, I know of few athletes that have a manager, in the talent sense.  Certainly some of them have business managers to handle their financial affairs.

Andy Virus wrote:
I was offered a manager if I did a cam sessions.  XD

Yeah, I know a model you know that I offered to shoot, with a licensed, MUA, and she wanted to bring her roomie, who could do it.

Now, we are talking about a trained Pro, Hair and MUA with years of experience, who did great work, but a scared little girl from asstown texass wanted her roomie to hold her hand.

One was a scam, one was a little girl who was trying to run game.

There's a diff.

I'd hire you Andy, in a heartbeat, cause your a Pro.

Your friend, well, she needs to grow up.

Bottom line is, the real ones Show Up. The wanna be's need a hand holder.

John Edward wrote:
Yeah, I know a model you know that I offered to shoot, with a licensed, MUA, and she wanted to bring her roomie, who could do it.

You know... I have a certain experience in the NYC market... and I am (currently) in an advisory position to an agency/management firm (around since 1983, the year I've graduated high school!) which includes shooting for them... and I don't have the balls to pretend that I could "manage" a model in a real, professional way that she would deserve, because I have no real experience (only peripheral) in that field...

What I know may easily exceed the knowledge of most of those managers... and what I know is totally insufficient!

"Just a thought..., just a thought" (quoting Halle Berry in "Swordfish"... )

udor