Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
One of my challenges is "extrapolating" or recreating definition. The photographer in me realized that the image left's shoulder should have that "depth," because the model's shoulder is coming out towards the viewer. I drew in (as best I could) the highlight and surrounding circles of darker shade to illustrate the shoulder bulge.

This thread is good for me as well! Thanks for the images to be shared.

Thank you Ronald! That's super helpful.

Thanks also to digital Artform for all of the comprehensive responses

Neil Snape wrote:
Carving. I suppose I'm an experienced retoucher, but must be living in my grotte for too long. I never heard the term carving other than the mess I make when hacking a poultry , mand everyone asks me , "you call that carving?"

It's all just DB, years before MM existed I was doing this with curves layers in mixed L modes. Not sure exactly when the bone heads at Adobe came out with opacity and flow but I think around V7. Using the pen was easier before , you didn't need to be constantly adjusting the keypad shortcuts to get to where you were going.

It has become a reflex, but isn't at all the way it should be. While many of you try to precisely paint the layer, I just hack with varying opacity and flow most often at 50/50 , 30/30, or 70/70. Then I mask the layer and paint on it to redo or revert the splendor of all the wow and pow, that made the picture to 'Shopped to be real.

I think there is a saturation problem if you go too far in DB , carving if you like, that you should pay attention to. For Greenberg pictures it's passable, for others it becomes vulgar quickly.  So that said I can see reason why 100% / 2 % flow without masking would ensure a decent touch.

My way is a sure way to look back in time and say what the heck was I thinking?

Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
I agree with you, "carving" is under the umbrella category of "dodging and burning," but more specifically, you are contouring and remapping and enhancing light.

I just think "carving" sounds more refined and sophisticated. I was introduced to the term from the RetouchPro forum. An alternative for carving could be "painting with light or PWL" for short.

I just call it D&B and as Neil says, it has been done for many many years. Even make-up artists use this when applying shadows and highlights. This is part of the reason why all those actors in Hollywood look so ripped. Apply some shadowy make up in the right places and you look twice as buff

None the less, this turned out to be a nice and interesting thread. I wasn't sure what you were getting at when you started it, but MP got it rolling

Lanenga wrote:

I just call it D&B and as Neil says, it has been done for many many years. Even make-up artists use this when applying shadows and highlights. This is part of the reason why all those actors in Hollywood look so ripped. Apply some shadowy make up in the right places and you look twice as buff

None the less, this turned out to be a nice and interesting thread. I wasn't sure what you were getting at when you started it, but MP got it rolling

MP Retouch wrote:

(the curve masks composited onto a 50% grey layer)

i wouldn't claim to be an advanced retoucher, but my guess is that the more talented a retoucher is at painting human anatomy, the easier this kind of retouching is going to be for him... because you're essentially painting a face in grayscale.

dave phoenix wrote:
i wouldn't claim to be an advanced retoucher, but my guess is that the more talented a retoucher is at painting human anatomy, the easier this kind of retouching is going to be for him... because you're essentially painting a face in grayscale.

It's true that if you know your anatomy and you are a good painter this retouching might get a bit easier, but it's nothing like painting a face in grayscale. The face is already there. You'd just be enhancing some features.

It's more like coloring within the lines than painting from scratch.

Lanenga wrote:
but it's nothing like painting a face in grayscale. The face is already there. You'd just be enhancing some features.

It's more like coloring within the lines than painting from scratch.

Depending on your intent.

I´m never content with the existing shapes so I change them, create my own, my favourite one is the space between the mouth and the nose.

When D&B you are purifying and defining a gradient. Just like when painting.

Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
MP = Michael Pearson.
REMEMBER his name. :-)

Koray wrote:
I also believe that one can d&b quite well to some degree without even brushing at all

To enhance, not to create.

Lanenga wrote:
but it's nothing like painting a face in grayscale. The face is already there. You'd just be enhancing some features.

It's more like coloring within the lines than painting from scratch.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Depending on your intent.

No, not really. Unless you are actually PAINTING new parts in, it's nothing like painting from scratch.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
I´m never content with the existing shapes so I change them, create my own, my favourite one is the space between the mouth and the nose.

When D&B you are purifying and defining a gradient. Just like when painting.

I knew someone would say this. But even if you do change shapes, that would be more like adjusting the outlines and all you do with carving is color inside them REALLY REALLY precise

I do know people who actually do paint parts in(I've even done it), but that's not what is being discussed here. It was about the comparison between carving/D&B and painting in greyscale.

Lets get back on topic...
This kind of work does however require the retoucher/artist to have the same level of knowledge of "playing with light" as a painter has.

Lanenga wrote:
but it's nothing like painting a face in grayscale. The face is already there. You'd just be enhancing some features.

It's more like coloring within the lines than painting from scratch.

It's not the sine wave, it's the +/- pushes and pulls to the sine wave.

Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
If anyone is lurking at the thread, please join us. We are amongst friends and are here to assist one another.

I am learning tips and tricks myself. It is fun!

Great approach ronan, i must train my eyes more,  on the forms and flows of light and dark body spots, but the "lighten" part on the arm was in my mind , i love to exercise , this thread is great

Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
Here is my attempt at augmenting a slight, structural correction. A lot of guess work and I am still having difficulty "seeing" it.

There is a triangular bone there, the scapula (shoulder blade) and it has two edges (indicated in white) that are present in the model.

Also there is some muscle indicated in green.



There is actually a lot more muscle around the shoulder blade, but the bony ridges, I think, are the most important landmarks.

Koray wrote:
this thread is starting to get scary

Koray wrote:
its all fine as long as this thread will make the world see better images...and I'm not scared of Francis the Bone Collector

edit: oh...I wasnt aware that an evilgrin smilie was added!!!

Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
Scary

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
Sometimes the color you need is not simply a lighter or darker version of the color you have, but a somewhat different hue or saturation. For this reasons digital painters are routinely discouraged from using dodge and burn as a means of painting.

Good point. I think photographers have a bit more leeway because of the nature of the media we're working with. With a painting the viewer is supposed to believe it's real and thus d&b doesn't give very lifelike, vibrant results. Retouching a photo on the other hand is already clearly real so we can get away with less visually exciting highlights and shadows. Sometimes I do like to go and paint in some of the background color to the shadows and the light color to the highlights for visual interest though.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
Something else to look at--

Awesome, bookmarked. I love how it clearly shows the the way the artist shaded the simplified forms.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
I´m never content with the existing shapes so I change them, create my own, my favourite one is the space between the mouth and the nose.

When D&B you are purifying and defining a gradient. Just like when painting.

I'm glad someone brought this up. The curve of the surface is expressed through the gradient, so by altering gradients you can change how angular or smooth a surface is. I also find myself just simplifying gradients I see in the image as it creates a more sleek, visually appealing result.  Same goes for simplifying the shapes of the highlights and shadows. For people who aren't Francis the Bone Collector, this involves lots of trial and error as I don't really know if an highlight or shadow adjustment will "work" until I try it out.

Neil Snape wrote:
I think there is a saturation problem if you go too far in DB , carving if you like, that you should pay attention to. For Greenberg pictures it's passable, for others it becomes vulgar quickly.  So that said I can see reason why 100% / 2 % flow without masking would ensure a decent touch.

My way is a sure way to look back in time and say what the heck was I thinking?

Theres a method I use that's saved me lots of time in the color correction part of d&b. Before I did this I found myself color correcting the d&b more often than not. Now I find myself leaving it alone more often than not. The method is I pull the highlight point of the curve down a little bit on the burn curve, and raise the black point of the curve a bit in the dodge curve. The amount that the saturation is affected by the curve can be adjusted by playing with the corresponding end point to your dodge layer (shadow point) or burn layer (highlight point). This trick only works if you d&b in tiny little blobs and strokes, not if you enhance a large section of the face as contrast will be lost. If you darken down a very bright area, you'll most likely need to paint color. Likewise with an extreme brightening.

Lanenga wrote:
It's true that if you know your anatomy and you are a good painter this retouching might get a bit easier, but it's nothing like painting a face in grayscale. The face is already there. You'd just be enhancing some features.

It's more like coloring within the lines than painting from scratch.

I do think it's much easier than painting a face from scratch, but the amount you intend to change the form of the face determines how much it feels like painting a face from scratch. For example in the edit I posted in this post, I really did end up painting the form of the nose in a way that was totally different from the original. Even that isn't quite the same as painting from scratch, but it's close.

Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
OFF TOPIC: Isn't there a time on MM, that is people use the word, "scary," the coding would automatically replace with some graphic?

Looks like the evil reign of the fear cat has finally come to an end. Rejoice!

Koray wrote:
its all fine as long as this thread will make the world see better images...and I'm not scared of Francis the Bone Collector

edit: oh...I wasnt aware that an evilgrin smilie was added!!!

I love "Francis the Bone Collector's" extensive knowledge of anatomy. I guess I'm his padawan when it comes to understanding the body.

Michael C Pearson wrote:
Theres a method I use that's saved me lots of time in the color correction part of d&b. Before I did this I found myself color correcting the d&b more often than not. Now I find myself leaving it alone more often than not. The method is I pull the highlight point of the curve down a little bit on the burn curve, and raise the black point of the curve a bit in the dodge curve. The amount that the saturation is affected by the curve can be adjusted by playing with the corresponding end point to your dodge layer (shadow point) or burn layer (highlight point). This trick only works if you d&b in tiny little blobs and strokes, not if you enhance a large section of the face as contrast will be lost. If you darken down a very bright area, you'll most likely need to paint color. Likewise with an extreme brightening.

Before I begin, I want to comment that I really like your work and your contribution to this thread. As someone who is not a retoucher but enjoys learning about retouching, I am thankful for your contribution.

Your comment above with regard to color correcting with d&b reminded me of something I read in Gry Garness's ebook.

Page 15, digital RETOUCHING for FASHION, BEAUTY & PORTRAIT PHOTOGRAPHY
photoshop CS5
Part 2 Skin Retouching
By Gry Garness
http://www.grygarness.com/photoshop/e-b … -books.htm

USING A SCREEN LAYER FOR DODGING

I generally find myself dodging much more often than burning, and this is definitely one of my favorite ways to dodge. By simply making a blank layer and blending it to Screen mode, you can sample the color of the skin nearby and use this color to dodge with. Just find the right brush capacity. It's really intuitive. If you have a pink blemish (or area) and your want to drive it more towards yellow as you lighten it, you simply sample a more yellow area of skin and brush over the pink. For this it's best to work with very low opacities.

I am not positive that this information directly relates to your comments Michael about color correction.

However, I hadn't seen the color sampling before when dodging and burning. Perhaps some others hadn't either. So I thought I would mention it in case others find color sampling helpful.

Michael C Pearson wrote:
I'm glad someone brought this up. The curve of the surface is expressed through the gradient, so by altering gradients you can change how angular or smooth a surface is. I also find myself just simplifying gradients I see in the image as it creates a more sleek, visually appealing result.  Same goes for simplifying the shapes of the highlights and shadows. For people who aren't Francis the Bone Collector, this involves lots of trial and error as I don't really know if an highlight or shadow adjustment will "work" until I try it out.

To me this sounds all really obvious and is what I always tell people first.

When looking at 2D images, our brain tricks us in seeing 3D shapes/objects because that's what we have experienced throughout or life when growing up, but with enough practice you can make your brain see what's really there (insert matrix quote). A flat image with gradients on them.

So when people ask me how to become better at retouching, I tell them to train there eyes to see what's really there. This however is always a lot harder than just copying some techniques you've seen on some DVD.

When it comes to anatomy I'd like to suggest to get yourself a copy of Sobotta  or Gray's Anatomy. I find them a lot more useful now, then back when I was in med school.

Lanenga wrote:
It's true that if you know your anatomy and you are a good painter this retouching might get a bit easier, but it's nothing like painting a face in grayscale. The face is already there. You'd just be enhancing some features.

It's more like coloring within the lines than painting from scratch.

Michael C Pearson wrote:
I do think it's much easier than painting a face from scratch, but the amount you intend to change the form of the face determines how much it feels like painting a face from scratch. For example in the edit I posted in this post, I really did end up painting the form of the nose in a way that was totally different from the original. Even that isn't quite the same as painting from scratch, but it's close.

I did see that image and I am still not convinced unless you would call this painting too

Click link for video

Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
OFF TOPIC: Isn't there a time on MM, that is people use the word, "scary," the coding would automatically replace with some graphic?

Haha yes there was. Seems like MM is maturing. Too bad...

Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
In a sense, "carving" is doing what makeup artists do. Improving and reshaping the face resulting in attractive illusions.

Well she is pressing her fingers right into the bone and muscle structure to smudge which we cant

Koray wrote:

Well she is pressing her fingers right into the bone and muscle structure to smudge which we cant

Koray wrote:

Well she is pressing her fingers right into the bone and muscle structure to smudge which we cant

Note to Adobe:
Add a Poly Juice tool in next version of Photoshop

Michael C Pearson wrote:

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
Sometimes the color you need is not simply a lighter or darker version of the color you have, but a somewhat different hue or saturation. For this reasons digital painters are routinely discouraged from using dodge and burn as a means of painting.

Good point. I think photographers have a bit more leeway because of the nature of the media we're working with. With a painting the viewer is supposed to believe it's real and thus d&b doesn't give very lifelike, vibrant results. Retouching a photo on the other hand is already clearly real so we can get away with less visually exciting highlights and shadows. Sometimes I do like to go and paint in some of the background color to the shadows and the light color to the highlights for visual interest though.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
Something else to look at--

Awesome, bookmarked. I love how it clearly shows the the way the artist shaded the simplified forms.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
I´m never content with the existing shapes so I change them, create my own, my favourite one is the space between the mouth and the nose.

When D&B you are purifying and defining a gradient. Just like when painting.

I'm glad someone brought this up. The curve of the surface is expressed through the gradient, so by altering gradients you can change how angular or smooth a surface is. I also find myself just simplifying gradients I see in the image as it creates a more sleek, visually appealing result.  Same goes for simplifying the shapes of the highlights and shadows. For people who aren't Francis the Bone Collector, this involves lots of trial and error as I don't really know if an highlight or shadow adjustment will "work" until I try it out.

Neil Snape wrote:
I think there is a saturation problem if you go too far in DB , carving if you like, that you should pay attention to. For Greenberg pictures it's passable, for others it becomes vulgar quickly.  So that said I can see reason why 100% / 2 % flow without masking would ensure a decent touch.

My way is a sure way to look back in time and say what the heck was I thinking?

Theres a method I use that's saved me lots of time in the color correction part of d&b. Before I did this I found myself color correcting the d&b more often than not. Now I find myself leaving it alone more often than not. The method is I pull the highlight point of the curve down a little bit on the burn curve, and raise the black point of the curve a bit in the dodge curve. The amount that the saturation is affected by the curve can be adjusted by playing with the corresponding end point to your dodge layer (shadow point) or burn layer (highlight point). This trick only works if you d&b in tiny little blobs and strokes, not if you enhance a large section of the face as contrast will be lost. If you darken down a very bright area, you'll most likely need to paint color. Likewise with an extreme brightening.

Lanenga wrote:
It's true that if you know your anatomy and you are a good painter this retouching might get a bit easier, but it's nothing like painting a face in grayscale. The face is already there. You'd just be enhancing some features.

It's more like coloring within the lines than painting from scratch.

I do think it's much easier than painting a face from scratch, but the amount you intend to change the form of the face determines how much it feels like painting a face from scratch. For example in the edit I posted in this post, I really did end up painting the form of the nose in a way that was totally different from the original. Even that isn't quite the same as painting from scratch, but it's close.

Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan wrote:
OFF TOPIC: Isn't there a time on MM, that is people use the word, "scary," the coding would automatically replace with some graphic?

Looks like the evil reign of the fear cat has finally come to an end. Rejoice!


I love "Francis the Bone Collector's" extensive knowledge of anatomy. I guess I'm his padawan when it comes to understanding the body.

I think i love you.

But you already know that

x