Photographer
Chuck Purnell
Posts: 336
Wilmington, Delaware, US
Should Models with little or no experience modeling be demanding paid work right off the bat? I have been checking out various profiles here on MM and I have been noticing some of these so called models with little experience say they won't work for free or they want compensation preferred.
I just think if they are starting out they should get some experience and do some TFP shoots to gain some experience before they start saying they want paid work. Have of them don't even know how to pose correctly and yet they want paid work! SMH!!!
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
Chuck Purnell wrote:
Should Models with little or no experience modeling be demanding paid work right off the bat? I have been checking out various profiles here on MM and I have been noticing some of these so called models with little experience say they won't work for free or they want compensation preferred.
I just think if they are starting out they should get some experience and do some TFP shoots to gain some experience before they start saying they want paid work. Have of them don't even know how to pose correctly and yet they want paid work! SMH!!! in my opinion it's the photographer's job to pose the model. you are the artist. one should not be lazy in this regard.
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 22898
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
... let them eat cake!
Studio36
Photographer
GCobb Photography
Posts: 15898
Southaven, Mississippi, US
They can do whatever they want. Chances are they're either proud of what they do or someone has filled their heads full of crap and told them they should be charging. I had someone locally ask me for payment and I think she has one shoot under her. It's their call as far as I'm concerned.
Photographer
GCobb Photography
Posts: 15898
Southaven, Mississippi, US
Mark Laubenheimer wrote:
in my opinion it's the photographer's job to pose the model. you are the artist. one should not be lazy in this regard. Exactly
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
This is merely a reflection of the current state of our culture. Anything competitive has been banned from public schooling and most childhood and teenage experiences - everyone is beautiful, everyone wins
this does not prepare young people for the real world - and it does give them a sense of entitlement -
add to that the fact that there are many "photographers" here who *will* pay especially if she will get naked, regardless of her experience or merit as a model
I do not mind compensating *talent* btw - I just don't see it in a significant statistical majority of those who demand it here.
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Mark Laubenheimer wrote:
in my opinion it's the photographer's job to pose the model. you are the artist. one should not be lazy in this regard. GCobb Photography wrote:
Exactly Then I take it a fresh warmed one from the morgue would suffice?
Photographer
Matt Schmidt Photo
Posts: 3709
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
Chuck Purnell wrote:
Should Models with little or no experience modeling be demanding paid work right off the bat? No . . .
Just like when I bought my first camera body . . . I didn't take 15 photos and then demand pay.
Photographer
GCobb Photography
Posts: 15898
Southaven, Mississippi, US
Cherrystone wrote:
Mark Laubenheimer wrote:
in my opinion it's the photographer's job to pose the model. you are the artist. one should not be lazy in this regard. Then I take it a fresh warmed one from the morgue would suffice? That's how we like them.
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
Cherrystone wrote:
Mark Laubenheimer wrote:
in my opinion it's the photographer's job to pose the model. you are the artist. one should not be lazy in this regard. Then I take it a fresh warmed one from the morgue would suffice? depending on the intent of the artist.
Photographer
33431
Posts: 11
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
Fotographahaulic wrote:
No . . .
Just like when I bought my first camera body . . . I didn't take 15 photos and then demand pay. +1
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Chuck Purnell wrote:
Should Models with little or no experience modeling be demanding paid work right off the bat? I have been checking out various profiles here on MM and I have been noticing some of these so called models with little experience say they won't work for free or they want compensation preferred.
I just think if they are starting out they should get some experience and do some TFP shoots to gain some experience before they start saying they want paid work. Have of them don't even know how to pose correctly and yet they want paid work! SMH!!! Umm, I assume that everyone wants to get paid, and there is nothing wrong with starting a negotiation by asking to get paid. That's their business.
Your business is whether or not you are willing to pay them. Your choices are...
... accept,
... decline, or
... make a counter offer.
But you don't have the right to ridicule or judge the other party. In fact, that just leads down a dark & unconstructive path. If you don't want to pay the model, just say "no"; don't say "no because you are too inexperienced to be asking for pay".
In my opinion, photographers who get offended when models ask to get paid are not being very "professional".
The way I figure it: the universe takes care of a model's rates.
... If she manages to get a lot of work at her requested rate, she's right.
... If she doesn't get any work at all at her requested rate, you're right.
... Either way, you need do nothing.
Smart models who don't get hired at the rates she requests will figure out something else to do.
One final point: a model's "look" and attitude trumps her experience. Some models with no experience at all are better than some models with decades of experience.
Photographer
Yan Tan Tethera
Posts: 4185
Biggleswade, England, United Kingdom
Right and wrong in equal measure.
Photographer
RBM Photo
Posts: 557
Bellbrook, Ohio, US
Either someone will pay them . . . or they won't. Either way it's not your concern, just shrug your shoulders and move on.
Photographer
Dan K Photography
Posts: 5581
STATEN ISLAND, New York, US
Depends on the model. I am sure there have been many PB playmates who have very little experience and they got paid well.
Same with the rare fashion model.
Photographer
33431
Posts: 11
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
Dan K Photography wrote:
Depends on the model. I am sure there have been many PB playmates who have very little experience and they got paid well.
Same with the rare fashion model. True but I'm pretty sure none of them demand pay right out the gate... they are offered so and so much and its either they take it or leave it.
Photographer
A_Nova_Photography
Posts: 8652
Winston-Salem, North Carolina, US
I've heard this same thing from many, many photographers and it's the only thing that drives me insane when it happens...
I get the message from a model and it goes like this... Hi, I love YOUR work and would love to shoot with you... If they look like someone I'd trade with I respond back to start setting up a shoot... Within a message or 2 I get either the "how much do you compensate your models" or "my rates are..." This usually comes from models with zero experience who are trying to build a portfolio....
Photographer
Kool Koncepts
Posts: 965
Saint Louis, Michigan, US
Chuck Purnell wrote:
Should Models with little or no experience modeling be demanding paid work right off the bat? I have been checking out various profiles here on MM and I have been noticing some of these so called models with little experience say they won't work for free or they want compensation preferred.
I just think if they are starting out they should get some experience and do some TFP shoots to gain some experience before they start saying they want paid work. Have of them don't even know how to pose correctly and yet they want paid work! SMH!!! Looks like this could be in response to this thread:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=825024
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
Mark Laubenheimer wrote:
in my opinion it's the photographer's job to pose the model. you are the artist. one should not be lazy in this regard. What you say is perfectly correct - when working with newbie models, as I often have. However, I do not expect to pay for the privilege of teaching her how to model... there is no "value added" here.
And, I prefer to work with models who *make my work better* with their appearance and skill - this is worthy of compensation IMO
Artist/Painter
sdgillis
Posts: 2464
Portland, Oregon, US
There is nothing wrong with trying to earn some payment depending on the demands of the job.
sometimes worth it to pay some basic expenses rather that put up a "been there, done that" attitude.
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
Fotografica Gregor wrote:
What you say is perfectly correct - when working with newbie models, as I often have. However, I do not expect to pay for the privilege of teaching her how to model... there is no "value added" here.
And, I prefer to work with models who *make my work better* with their appearance and skill - this is worthy of compensation IMO i use my skill as a photographer to make my work better. i don't rely on pretty girls. everyone can be pretty.
Photographer
Julian W I L D E
Posts: 1831
Portland, Oregon, US
It's really not about what "they demand" or what you or I "demand." It's about a "continuum of talent, experience and resources." And everyone is on the continuum. Somewhere. You work with someone just under your level: they pay you. You work with someone just above you: you pay them. And it's really not that hard to figure out.
Maybe when you're just starting out. Not when you've been around the block a few times. ;-)
Just sayin',
-JULIAN
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
Mark Laubenheimer wrote:
i use my skill as a photographer to make my work better. i don't rely on pretty girls. everyone can be pretty. Well of course I "rely on my own skills to make my work better" - however, if you are not "relying on pretty girls" - or seeking the creative partnership that a dynamic and skilled model can provide, how are you going to expect to produce imagery suitable for editorial publication or commercial sale?
"Everyone can be pretty" is true enough in the TF world, but will not impress the art director for an editorial magazine or an advertising agency...
and ultimately, even very talented and experienced photographers can both learn from and have their quality of work "upgraded" by top shelf models.
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
Fotografica Gregor wrote:
Well of course I "rely on my own skills to make my work better" - however, if you are not "relying on pretty girls" - or seeking the creative partnership that a dynamic and skilled model can provide, how are you going to expect to produce imagery suitable for editorial publication or commercial sale?
"Everyone can be pretty" is true enough in the TF world, but will not impress the art director for an editorial magazine or an advertising agency...
and ultimately, even very talented and experienced photographers can both learn from and have their quality of work "upgraded" by top shelf models. editorial publication or commercial sale? ad agency?
the OP never mentioned those. neither did i.
everyone can be pretty. anytime. any place. i do portraiture. no ad agency or magazine needed to justify the people i photograph.
Photographer
Chuck Purnell
Posts: 336
Wilmington, Delaware, US
In my opinion, photographers who get offended when models ask to get paid are not being very "professional". I agreed with some of the points you made but not really this one about photographers not being professional because they questioned her want on getting paid. Is there anything wrong with a model wanting to get paid? No. Does she deserve to be paid? Most people want to be paid for their time. I have done shoots for free before and I hate it but I did it and the model is now a repeat customer because she knows my work and how I helped her out when she was starting.
The other day I viewed a good number of profiles and I came across several that had photos that were not professionally done (i.e. shot with a cell phone or point and shoot), the model didn't look like she knew what she was doing and yes I do think its the photographer's job to pose the model but the point I am making is that based on her profile here on MM, and I can only go by that, if she had amateurish photos posted how then can she say she will ONLY work for paid assignments? I agree with someone may have filled these models heads and said don't accept any shoots where your not getting paid. I have no idea.
If I came across a profile that just blew me away and the pics were professionally done and I said to myself I would like to work with this model then yea I don't have no problem booking and paying that person if she only accepts paid assignments. Sometimes I just need a model or models to make an appearance at an event and they know way in advance that they will be paid for their time.
The bottom line, I can only go by what is written or posted in their MM profiles. Some models will say they will do TFP shoots but prefer paid assignments which is cool. I came across one profile and her only experience was being in her High School's fashion show and yet she was one of the "paid assignment only" models.
If you notice most of the Very Experienced model profiles on here almost all have PAID ASSIGNMENTS ONLY! Why? They have experience. They don't want no photographer wasting their time on a shoot or acts like he is not sure what he wants and can't deliver. Many of them - modeling is there "9 to 5" job so I totally understand where they are coming from. Its the ones that have ZERO experience but want to act as if they have years of experience and demand payment. I had a model with little experience, tell me recently she wanted me to pay her $400 for 2 hours of work! There was no way that was going to happen! She did get paid for her 2 hours of work but it was not $400!
I really didn't want this to turn into a rant. I just made an observation while viewing profiles and wanted to voice my opinion thats all.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13562
Washington, Utah, US
Chuck Purnell wrote:
The other day I viewed a good number of profiles and I came across several that had photos that were not professionally done (i.e. shot with a cell phone or point and shoot), the model didn't look like she knew what she was doing and yes I do think its the photographer's job to pose the model but the point I am making is that based on her profile here on MM, and I can only go by that, if she had amateurish photos posted how then can she say she will ONLY work for paid assignments? I agree with someone may have filled these models heads and said don't accept any shoots where your not getting paid. I have no idea. I agree many models have unrealistic expectations about their worth and/or really don't care. Many think it may be easy money and they would rather not model at all than work their way up.
It's their choice. I can't control what they seek or offer. I can't force a flaky model to show. I do however have choices: I can choose models who have a more realistic sense of their place in the market. I can choose to work through an agency. If I can't find a model who offers what I want for a price I feel is fair, I can choose to shoot a less expensive subject matter. I can choose to spend my Saturday drinking beer and watching t.v. instead of accepting an over priced shoot.
I think photographers here sometimes get their heads so wrapped up in MM land, that it's easy to forget we have options.
Photographer
Hank Shiffman
Posts: 384
Mountain View, California, US
How exactly are these models demanding pay? The word brings with it an implication of unreasonableness. I do pay models, even inexperienced ones, when I'm expecting (demanding?) a signed commercial release from the shoot. I'm hoping to make money from the images, so it seems reasonable to me that they should want/expect compensation. Just how much compensation is reasonable is a discussion we need to have. If they quote a figure I think is out of line, I'll tell them so. If they offer to negotiate, we may reach an agreement. If not, I'll regret the missed opportunity, and perhaps they will as well. But I don't think of it as their making demands, any more than I'm demanding that they work with me.
On the other hand, any attempt to modify the terms of my release or to renegotiate once the shoot has begun will be met with extreme resistance on my part. I don't like surprises, and I request terms for compensation up front to avoid conflict later. So far it's worked for me.
Photographer
MC Grain
Posts: 1647
New York, New York, US
Chuck Purnell wrote:
Should Models with little or no experience modeling be demanding paid work right off the bat? I have been checking out various profiles here on MM and I have been noticing some of these so called models with little experience say they won't work for free or they want compensation preferred.
I just think if they are starting out they should get some experience and do some TFP shoots to gain some experience before they start saying they want paid work. Have of them don't even know how to pose correctly and yet they want paid work! SMH!!! Pay never has anything to do with experience it is always a function of leverage.
Different things create different leverage for different people so the answer will always be case specific.
Photographer
NIMATARADJI photography
Posts: 898
Chicago, Illinois, US
Chuck Purnell wrote:
Should Models with little or no experience modeling be demanding paid work right off the bat? I have been checking out various profiles here on MM and I have been noticing some of these so called models with little experience say they won't work for free or they want compensation preferred.
I just think if they are starting out they should get some experience and do some TFP shoots to gain some experience before they start saying they want paid work. Have of them don't even know how to pose correctly and yet they want paid work! SMH!!! It's appropriate for them to ask--worst case scenario you will say no!
I have never paid for models who are just starting no matter what they think their time is worth. There are so many other models, I haven't even given it a second thought. TF shoots are free, and full release must be signed. Some models who disagree with this policy won't shoot with me. I move on.
NIMATARADJI | Photography
http://allamericanheadshots.com
http://www.facebook.com/AllAmericanHeadshots
Photographer
Isaiah Brink
Posts: 2328
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
Chuck Purnell wrote:
Should Models with little or no experience modeling be demanding paid work right off the bat? I have been checking out various profiles here on MM and I have been noticing some of these so called models with little experience say they won't work for free or they want compensation preferred.
I just think if they are starting out they should get some experience and do some TFP shoots to gain some experience before they start saying they want paid work. Have of them don't even know how to pose correctly and yet they want paid work! SMH!!! Il know I'm going to be booed for this, but if a prospective model is just starting out, she should be paying the photographer for the images.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
one of my favorites was a friend of a model. she had it going on from the start and certainly would have been worth paying. some girls just have it, even at the start.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
around here photographers doing amazing work will do it on trade so there has to be something special about a photographer (maybe fashion or they can get them published in maxim) for a model to be willing to pay i think. Isaiah Brink wrote:
Il know I'm going to be booed for this, but if a prospective model is just starting out, she should be paying the photographer for the images.
Model
Samantha Church
Posts: 197
Chicago, Illinois, US
If they can get paid, more power to them. I don't think it's a question of ethics--that it's fair or right for a model to pay her dues by doing free work before asking for pay. I think it's a matter of business. Charge what you can get. And if at first, you can't get anything, or determine that you'd rather trade with or pay for good photographers at first so you have a portfolio that will ultimately allow you to charge MORE, cool. Or if you can ask for and get the money you want right off the bat, cool.
We all adjust our rates all of the time based on what we can get. If they find they can't get paid, then they'll lower their rates or start trading.
Nothing is fair about the business of the arts in general. Some people are successful right off the bat and don't pay due one, and some put in years and years of great work and no financial compensation. There's no right or wrong way to go about it.
Photographer
Land Imagery
Posts: 906
Springfield, Missouri, US
In a free market society, they can demand whatever they want for their services. We photographers can choose whether or not we are willing to pay their rates. As with any other business venture, models will find that the size of their clientele will vary depending upon their rates, talent and experience. If they are happy with the living they make and the size of their clientele, they'll stay with those rates. If they aren't, they'll change them. There's a lot of competition out there. When a new model with a weak portfolio states that they'll only take paid work, I chuckle and skip to the next person. If she has a look or feature that I think is worth the investment, then it's on.
Frankly, I agree with the above comment. The photographer is the artist. In most cases, the final quality of the posing is up to you. New models usually take more time and patience to work with to get that look you're after, but, it's up to you.
Just my random musings.
ML
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