Dani Vespa wrote:
Finding the photographers hasn't been the problem...it's the hair and MUAs... (Not that they're a problem.) I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong or maybe expecting too much?

The more elements you organize and put in place, the more people will jump on board that test/TF project.

So, if there are clothes. Accessories. Shoes for EVERY page. A wicked location or studio, some form of mua expenses or trade going on, I think you will find people.

Anything less and it's not portfolio-worthy.

Shooting implied nudes could raise your chances. A lot of mua/beauty work is topless implied etc, but you're restricting your availability perhaps in that department. Be selective, but if you're not offering yourself for some types of beauty work, I can't see why a mua would get excited. They probably don't see you as a fashion model and feel it would be a glorified portrait session, which is not much use to an experienced mua who is edging towards publication.

A huge part of any self-employed business is getting more "no" than "yes", so don't give up, but perhaps consider what you yourself can do to make shoots more portfolio-worthy for people.

On more than one occasion I've been let down by mua's and have an emergency. I run to a shop called Screenface and grab the nearest assistant, who is more than keen to build their portfolio and work with a published photographer. Same with hair, I've used hair salons in emergencies and these people did a great job and were fun to work with, they loved the experience too. Large department stores can be a good source in an emergency too.

One of the main things, will be the quality of the photographer. The better the tog, the more mua's will want to test.

Ms BSK wrote:
All MUAs or Hair Stylists are looking for the same three things - photographer, model and concept. It is like the holy trinity of book building. If there is one part of the trinity that doesn't jive for some reason then they may not want to spend the time testing with that team. It doesn't have to even be that they do not like one of the three sometimes they do not need what is being offered at the time. If you are looking for someone without experience (which it sounds like you are - it is a good opportunity to grow as a team) you can try the schools. They have people graduating all the time that need what you are offering. You get can together to try something smaller like just doing beauty, fashion or whatever you are in to just to test out the vibe. Once you find someone that you work well with you can work on the bigger concepts.

Well I have a ton of concepts that I would love to shoot, a willing photog who often is willing to shoot at least 2 of them, so the MUA/hair stylist has a choice! Maybe one shoot has already been done a million times but the other could really enhance their port. That's what I'm trying for...

I don't really care who does it. What I mean by that is talent comes from all places and sometimes you just need a break to get going. Not being very experienced doesn't mean there's a lack of talent and tons of experience sometimes can be over-hyped. I just want to be able to do my best as a model, however that happens.

I noticed you are located in NYC, which is where I am moving in a few months. Are you referring to up there? I know there are tons of  schools. Or did you mean anywhere?

Rollo David Snook wrote:
Shooting implied nudes could raise your chances. A lot of mua/beauty work is topless implied etc, but you're restricting your availability perhaps in that department. Be selective, but if you're not offering yourself for some types of beauty work, I can't see why a mua would get excited. They probably don't see you as a fashion model and feel it would be a glorified portrait session, which is not much use to an experienced mua who is edging towards publication.

Why do you say that beauty work has to be implies/topless/nude? Also, why would that make me less of a fashion model? I have seen and talked to plenty of models on here who don't do nudes and don't have difficulty in this area. I started MM very recently so I haven't had a chance to really get a great port, but I don't see myself as a "glorified portrait" model, nor do I see my only alternative to be taking off my clothes.

Rollo David Snook wrote:
Reading your profile, you sound like someone with a passion and creativity, this is actually very important and personally it's a big factor for me, to know the person will strive for a good shot, not just the cash, but it's probably the very first line in the profile that makes some people pass over.

And yes, mua schools is another source I've used in emergencies and often the results have been spectacularly good, because they see the opportunity and work really hard.

You don't think I should tell people I'm fairly new at this? Isn't that deceptive?

Angel Graves wrote:
Speaking as someone who does hair, makeup, wardrobe and design work I'm only interested in TF for a few reasons. It's a future relationship I can build that's mutually beneficial, I can try out new products, try new concepts, or replace dated images in my port.
I prefer to work with easy going people and if they feed me it's even better lol

I still do TF work even now, I test whenever I can and I'm always looking to improve things

Very good to know. And good food does seem to be a good bartering tool on here...

Dani Vespa wrote:
You don't think I should tell people I'm fairly new at this? Isn't that deceptive?

Dani, you don't tell people you are new, you tell them you are amateur, it's a very huge difference. I'm suggesting to you that the mua is looking for someone who has the same goals as themselves.

Why do you say that beauty work has to be implies/topless/nude?

Again, I didn't say this either. I am saying that SOME beauty work involves the model being topless/implied, backshot or hands on boobs etc.

Also, why would that make me less of a fashion model?

AGAIN, I didn't say this either. I am guessing/suggesting that PERHAPS the mua did not see you as a fashion model, based on your profile and current pics. Clearly you have an arty streak and interest in the actual concepts themselves.

I don't see myself as a "glorified portrait" model, nor do I see my only alternative to be taking off my clothes.

Neither do I

but unless you are Muslim or have a million customers already, no fashion agency is going to take a girl with unusual stats who ALSO refuses to shoot head and shoulders shots without her bra on. That's all I am saying, I am not talking about anything erotic or nude, I am talking about standing in a pair of jeans being photographed with no bra on, hands over your boobs, or a backshot. This kind of job does come up and if with a fashion agency, you would definitely get asked to do this kind of job. You've asked how to attract more mua's. Being versatile for cosmetic work is one way, that's all I am saying. Even in fashion, some jobs require sheer clothing etc. I don't really want to make a big issue of the nude thing, like you said it is not essential, but it is a contributory factor for me, if the model doesn't "shoot nudes", how on earth am I going to do a cosmetic shoot without showing any bra?

If you thought I was calling you a glorified portrait model, my apologies for not being clearer, since you are new it is fairly obvious you're building the port up. I was rather referring to the endless amounts of models here whose portfolios indicate they've never worked with a team, only the photographer. They also tend to be a model that is not suitable entirely for fashion, doesn't shoot nudes, works with bf escort and their port tends not to have much clarity, you struggle to actually see anything of the model, other than their face.

Rollo David Snook wrote:

Dani, you don't tell people you are new, you tell them you are amateur, it's a very huge difference. I'm suggesting to you that the mua is looking for someone who has the same goals as themselves.

That's what I had on my bio. The word "amateur". I took it off though.


If you thought I was calling you a glorified portrait model, my apologies for not being clearer, since you are new it is fairly obvious you're building the port up. I was rather referring to the endless amounts of models here whose portfolios indicate they've never worked with a team, only the photographer. They also tend to be a model that is not suitable entirely for fashion, doesn't shoot nudes, works with bf escort and their port tends not to have much clarity, you struggle to actually see anything of the model, other than their face.

I am very versatile. I can go without a bra, I just don't want anything exposed. My hands are not a bra and therefore using them to cover my breasts is nudity for me. And to answer how you shoot, see the response above this and underneath yours. Strapless bra. The tiny one that I own rarely shows in anything I wear but does wonders for both my figure and my comfort.

I'm not offended. I'm a go-getter. I'm booking a lot of shoots and for me that's a win. I never even thought someone of my proportions could be doing this. I'm so glad I was wrong.

Rollo David Snook wrote:
This is what I am trying to get across...

https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/p … 2#28261392

In this particular shot, she is most likely wearing a towel. However shots similiar to this do require implied topless.

I'd probably be fine with this shot honestly. But ONLY this shot. Too much down and you get into nudity. Also, if I put implied, everyone has their own definition of that. I don't want to be a liar. Hell, there are some slight fetish things I would do or pose with, but the minute you put it on your profile, it's assumed you do ALL of it.

I have a shoot I did in a strapless dress where I look just as nude as that model in some of the photos. Being comfortable with my body really has nothing to do with why I don't shoot nudes.

Rollo David Snook wrote:
Dani, let me ask you your own question, why are you struggling to get mua's?

If it's not your profile or pics, then perhaps like other posts have said, it's the photographer?

I figured it was because I'm new, still working on my port, and usually take what I get and make the best of it. I also figured they wanted to be paid. I have no idea, outside of that. That's why I posted this.

Dani Vespa wrote:
What would make you want to work TF with someone who wasn't a pro model or photographer, etc.? Are there certain features you look for in a models face?

For me, at this stage in my portfolio building, the model doesn't have to be a pro, but there does have to be potential demonstrated in a nice little collection of photos in their port for me to have faith that they'd bring what is desired to a shoot. In other words, whether or not you can get an artist at the moment, try to do a few shoots that really show off your modeling skills. Anyone looking to shoot with a newer model is not likely to expect you to have wowing makeup in your port yet. They're wanting to see what you can do for them (poses, expressions, willingness to experiment and be comfortable) and the attitude you convey in what you have to say about yourself, your work ethic and your goals.

One really good bare or minimally made up photo always makes me happy to see, so I can look at a blank canvas without interference of anything else on it and imagine what I could do with it. Make sure there's no shadowing or artsy, obscure angles. Just a simple, understated photo. Get that photo for MUAs!

There are definitely particular features being looked for, but not exclusively. When I'm looking for models for a makeup look or photoshoot idea, I almost always have in mind a general type of look (hair color/type/length, ethnicity, facial features, eye color) I'd prefer for that concept. Everyone is looking for something different and what they want changes from project to project and though you can alter your appearance, you can't be everything everyone wants all the time.

the lonely photographer wrote:
I find getting MUA's rather easy to find where I live, a lot  of them do "editorial work", though not what I shoot. The hard part is finding a hairstylist to do TF.
Most  newly  "licensed" hairstylists, are looking for a  job as an assistant, or working  for one of the franchise hair salons.
Most can't afford to do a TF shoot. Building a portfolio, is not a high  priority,  they have rent, car payment and other expenses. The free lancer HS may be more plentiful, though I suspect they  have bills to  pay too. Best bet is find a beauty school and try and  workout a deal. Though  you'll probably have to work around the students schedules.

Most licensed stylist have no desire to build a port that can't be used to advertise skills that get them paid work is the problem. Bridal, commercial (prom, special occasion), cut/color services... This is the work they need to showcase for a trade to be of benefit.
I'm a unique one in this group because I have a client base and work around that at things I find fun when I'm not being paid. I'm of a fortunate few.

Makeup by Dani B wrote:
Honestly, I see the note about "solicitation" as a red flag, tells me you aren't familiar with how things work. But looking at your pictures would probably make me say no unless you were shooting with a photographer whose work I knew well and loved. I can't say more as this isn't a critique forum. But that's the honest truth, although it's just my opinion, nothing more.

My advice would be to continue shooting to diversify your port, take out the "note" in your profile, and don't approach someone who is a pro without really solid idea/photographer, etc.

About the note: I have been on here for less than 2 whole weeks and have already been propositioned unprofessionally 3 times. One of them was someone I had never heard from before. He asked me if I was single. Two of them were way after the initial contact. In fact, I was in talks about what concept/location it would be and he kept dragging. Then he just started flirting and said we should hang out. The last one apologized for not getting back to me sooner, but invited me to come to the kegger he was throwing for his son's 21st birthday.

I'm not adverse to meeting people and making friends. However, I feel like I need some safeguard against people who are doing these things before we've even met. I wouldn't drink at my day job, so why would I go to a body painter's son's 21st birthday?

I could go on, but I'll spare you my rant. I just want to be respected.

Beat Face Beauty wrote:
Well I know in my case, I won't agree to a test or tf shoot if it won't benefit my portfolio. I think everyone's goal in the end is to get paid. Building an awesome portfolio so people can know your skill set and know what you're capable of. You may have some cool ideas but they may not match up with everyone else's visions. That's all it is. If you don't fit the market they're trying to get into they probably won't even bother. Also like everyone else said, if the photographer isn't up to par people may pass. I've done several shoots I should have passed on and can't even use on my site anymore. It's really a waste of valuable time in the end. I've worked with a lot of aspiring models who were great! So I doubt it's because you're new.

I think everyone is kind of misunderstanding. I guess I'm just really excited and shouldn't expect MUAs and hair stylists to come running without some experience. Since I'm really only contacting people that are new, a lot of them seem not to check their MM as often as I do.

There's a difference between being new and being fresh off the approval list. I feel like I don't have anything impressive enough to show a MUA. But really, I don't actually think it's me. I've been complimented on my strong facial features more than anything else. So I was just trying for some feedback...but I do appreciate it!

Ms BSK wrote:
All MUAs or Hair Stylists are looking for the same three things - photographer, model and concept. It is like the holy trinity of book building. If there is one part of the trinity that doesn't jive for some reason then they may not want to spend the time testing with that team. It doesn't have to even be that they do not like one of the three sometimes they do not need what is being offered at the time.

+1.

Dani Vespa wrote:
I think everyone is kind of misunderstanding. I guess I'm just really excited and shouldn't expect MUAs and hair stylists to come running without some experience. Since I'm really only contacting people that are new, a lot of them seem not to check their MM as often as I do.

There's a difference between being new and being fresh off the approval list. I feel like I don't have anything impressive enough to show a MUA. But really, I don't actually think it's me. I've been complimented on my strong facial features more than anything else. So I was just trying for some feedback...but I do appreciate it!

It will really depend on what the MUA or photographer is looking for and everybody is different.  I currently work with a team (MUA, Photographer, Hair Sylist, Clothing Designer, studio, etc) and often we look for new models.  every project is different and it depends on if the look would fit what we are looking for.  Keep trying and maybe you might find the right team.

Raw-Beauty wrote:
It will really depend on what the MUA or photographer is looking for and everybody is different.  I currently work with a team (MUA, Photographer, Hair Sylist, Clothing Designer, studio, etc) and often we look for new models.  every project is different and it depends on if the look would fit what we are looking for.  Keep trying and maybe you might find the right team.

Thank you!

Dani Vespa wrote:
NOTE: First and foremost, this is NOT a solicitation! I am asking for advice, not for someone to do this for me!

Hi everyone!

I'm just starting out here on MM! Though I may be new, my ideas are very big and often require a MUA and/or hair stylist. I'm not really at the point where I can comfortably pay for any yet, especially since I've only ever done TF shoots. I know you want to make money, but you have to start somewhere, just like I'm doing...right? (Or am I totally wrong?)

This lack of extra help has meant that I don't actually get to do the shoots I'm dying to do which would make my port so much more incredible. I don't mind trying out someone without a whole lot of experience. But every time I reach out, I don't get a response and feel stupid.

How would you approach this? What would make you want to work TF with someone who wasn't a pro model or photographer, etc.? Are there certain features you look for in a models face?

I'm really trying for advice here...thanks!

Nah, you just havent found the right photographer yet for you. It will happen. Keep pushing, never stop sending out cheery hellos to teams you want to work with.

What I do when I do TF, which isnt often cuz I am sweating my butt off trying to make rent, its because I want to challenge myself and be pushed. Here is an example. I was walking in Vancouver one day, with a friend, kinda buzzed I must say, and there was this terrific exhibition of statues made out of farm machinary parts in a gallery. I went inside, said hello and found out the sculptor was coming for an opening in a couple weeks.

I put up a post in a local forum for 6 models. I figured I would do some special effects and beauty on all of them for the opening. The gallery owner was tickled pink that I was bringing 6 beautiful models to help boost the show. The models were thrilled to get some pics. I put up a notice in a local makeup school and brought in 2 senior makeup students to assist. Then I contacted my costume designer friend who ran a costume store along, she provided the outfits. Voila, it was a caravan!
I met a photographer at the show, who I ended up working for over the next 2 years with steady paid work. Who'd a thunk it?

So being unafraid of rejection and going after a concept in your head is the ticket. Get an idea of a shoot you want to do and find the team to execute it. Take charge, put up a post, needed: MUA/hair and photographer for TF concept shoot.

You gotta be able to answer everyone coherently when they ask "whats in it for mois?"

CK Makeup Artistry wrote:
If you want to know why I'd personally not work with you then I can message you privately. I won't turn this in to a critiquing session but it seems that you're quite defensive. I find often people ask for their work to be critiqued but turn around and make different reasons or excuses for what is being said. Open your ears because quite frankly you came here asking for help and you're rejecting a good portion of what people are saying.

I appreciate your offer, and while I'm not trying to turn down good advice, if you read the note on my very first post, I clearly say I am not looking for a critique or to really make this about me. That's why I'm getting defensive. Because I'm not ready for a critique of my work yet... I'm wayyy too new. I'm totally taking in what people are saying, but the times I'm getting defensive are when people aren't really answering my question. My question was what can a model do to make herself/himself more marketable to a MUA/hair stylist who would do a shoot TF.

I do appreciate that you would offer to personally help me though. I'm not trying to be so defensive or sound ungrateful for the advice I've been lucky enough to be given. It's just hard to know that people have so much to say about my port and there's very little I can do to change anything.

Dani Vespa wrote:
My question was what can a model do to make herself/himself more marketable to a MUA/hair stylist who would do a shoot TF.

The answer to this question will always be "what is in it for me as a makeup or hair artist." If you want to shoot something and you aren't getting a good response then you haven't offered the artist something they want for their book. Keep asking and be flexible about your concepts. In the mean time working on building your own book. In my experience when starting out the best thing to do is work on simple and clean concepts.