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Model
Gianna Virginia
Posts: 178
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Tell me if this is common practice. Im a bit confused about a recent photographer that I contacted.

Im not sure how I stumbled upon their profile but I did and saw that they were shooting a certain theme and needed models. I liked the idea and let them know that Id love to come on board (assuming it would be a trade). I failed to notice that this person only shoots for pay.

Once they got back to me they told me that this shoot was going to take roughly 1/2hr and the fee would be 300 bucks. I was like...Huh??
If a photographer wants to shoot their own unique theme shouldnt it be either TFP or paid work for the model? Im confused.

This is actually not a rant. I just never came across this sort of arrangement and want feedback.

Then I was told in return for my participation I would be limited to just a small handful of shots, and that any additional images would require more money.

Apparently this photog is looking for new faces and depending on how the model perfoms for the shoot, they could be chosen to represent them in their magazine work.

Has anyone ever heard of this sort of arrangement? I always figured that if a model agrees to participate in a photographers concept it would be trade or paid work.

Thoughts?
Dec 06 12 01:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


Seems kind of strange to me. If he wants to get paid by the model, one would think he'd be willing to shoot what the model wants. But if his work is so completely awesome that it would benefit the model's port so greatly, maybe he has a realistic chance of getting paid by models.
Dec 06 12 01:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


You can always say "no" wink

I'm guessing that if the photographer was Steven Meisel or Mert & Marcus though, plenty of models might think that $300 was a small price to pay for a shoot, a few images and a chance to be considered for further work.




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Dec 06 12 01:55 pm  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,167
New York, New York, US


It's true everywhere, but more so around here, never assume!
Dec 06 12 02:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 2,973
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


He made an offer and you don't like it.  Assumptions that photographers (or any creative) will treat all models or clients the same are dangerous.  He is realistically telling you that the photos of you with the concept discussed have very little value to his portfolio.
Dec 06 12 02:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Pegg
Posts: 1,841
Weymouth, England, United Kingdom


Isn't any photographer who is shooting (and charging for ) a family group, shooting to his concept?
Basically he is offering you 'I will shoot you looking like this and it will cost you x$'.
Dec 06 12 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,428
San Diego, California, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
Apparently this photog is looking for new faces and depending on how the model perfoms for the shoot, they could be chosen to represent them in their magazine work.

Kinda whacky and then at this point it's like "Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....."

I bet if you took a look at the magazines he is published in, your curiosity would be answered. And even then, what if a model is chosen to shoot stuff for magazine submission- do they have to pay for that, too?

Dec 06 12 02:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,469
Los Angeles, California, US


Good example of where it pays to actually read what someone wrote, rather than to just assume what they had in mind

KM
Dec 06 12 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


Ken Pegg wrote:
Isn't any photographer who is shooting (and charging for ) a family group, shooting to his concept?

Not necessarily. When I shoot family portraits, I consult with the family to find out what look and feel they want. Maybe it's a formal setting in front of the fireplace. Maybe it's a fun and relaxed look outdoors. They then rely on my experience to make it look good, but I never come into a portrait session without asking how the paying client wants to be portrayed.

Dec 06 12 02:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,025
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Ken Pegg wrote:
Isn't any photographer who is shooting (and charging for ) a family group, shooting to his concept?

Definitely not.

Dec 06 12 02:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Gianna Virginia
Posts: 178
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:

Not necessarily. When I shoot family portraits, I consult with the family to find out what look and feel they want. Maybe it's a formal setting in front of the fireplace. Maybe it's a fun and relaxed look outdoors. They then rely on my experience to make it look good, but I never come into a portrait session without asking how the paying client wants to be portrayed.

This is why I was confused. A concept is someone else's vision for how they want the end product to appear. If a photographer has a vision for a creative shoot and need models for their vision then.... Im at a loss to see how or why they should get paid for that.

A photographer shooting for parties etc. are shoots for someone else's vision. Hence payment to the photographer. But if a photographer wants to shoot some pinups for their project/concept and is seeking models, payment doesnt seem to make sense. But I doubt any reputable photographer would need to do that anyway.

Dec 06 12 02:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 9,457
Seattle, Washington, US


It doesn't matter who's concept or idea. It's whether everyone agrees to the terms and conditions. If not, move along and 'next'.

And, in my humble opinion from your sound of it; you have a portfolio mill gwc. stay away.
Dec 06 12 03:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
P O T T S
Posts: 5,341
Lake City, Florida, US


Ken Pegg wrote:
Isn't any photographer who is shooting (and charging for ) a family group, shooting to his concept?
Basically he is offering you 'I will shoot you looking like this and it will cost you x$'.

Nope. Shoot advertising. It is almost never your concept.

Dec 06 12 03:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11,985
Costa Mesa, California, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
Tell me if this is common practice. I'm a bit confused about a recent photographer that I contacted.

I'm not sure how I stumbled upon their profile but I did and saw that they were shooting a certain theme and needed models. I liked the idea and let them know that Id love to come on board (assuming it would be a trade). I failed to notice that this person only shoots for pay.

Once they got back to me they told me that this shoot was going to take roughly 1/2hr and the fee would be 300 bucks. I was like...Huh??
If a photographer wants to shoot their own unique theme shouldnt it be either TFP or paid work for the model? Im confused.

This is actually not a rant. I just never came across this sort of arrangement and want feedback.

Then I was told in return for my participation I would be limited to just a small handful of shots, and that any additional images would require more money.

Apparently this photog is looking for new faces and depending on how the model perfoms for the shoot, they could be chosen to represent them in their magazine work.

Has anyone ever heard of this sort of arrangement? I always figured that if a model agrees to participate in a photographers concept it would be trade or paid work.

Thoughts?

So.... Shoot my concept. Pay me. MAYBE I'll put you in a magazine. Did he also try and sell you lessons to improve your modeling skill or promise to represent you?

Dec 06 12 03:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,364
Portland, Oregon, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
If a photographer wants to shoot their own unique theme shouldnt it be either TFP or paid work for the model?

Sorry, no. 

Anyone has the right to ask for whatever compensation she/he wants.
Everyone else has the right to accept, decline, or make a counteroffer.


Everything else doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter who asks whom.  It doesn't matter who had the idea originally.  All that matters is whether the person wanting to get paid can find sufficient appropriate people to pay him/her.

So, if you don't want to pay him, make a counteroffer or walk away.  If he can't find people to pay him, he'll figure something else out.  But he's not wrong to ask to get paid.

Dec 06 12 03:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Stephen Hudgins
Posts: 3
East Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
Sorry, no. 

Anyone has the right to ask for whatever compensation she/he wants.
Everyone else has the right to accept, decline, or make a counteroffer.


Everything else doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter who asks whom.  It doesn't matter who had the idea originally.  All that matters is whether the person wanting to get paid can find sufficient appropriate people to pay him/her.

So, if you don't want to pay him, make a counteroffer or walk away.  If he can't find people to pay him, he'll figure something else out.  But he's not wrong to ask to get paid.

Dec 06 12 03:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
radar
Posts: 860
New York, New York, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
If a photographer wants to shoot their own unique theme shouldnt it be either TFP or paid work for the model?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Sorry, no. 

Anyone has the right to ask for whatever compensation she/he wants.
Everyone else has the right to accept, decline, or make a counteroffer.


Everything else doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter who asks whom.  It doesn't matter who had the idea originally.  All that matters is whether the person wanting to get paid can find sufficient appropriate people to pay him/her.

So, if you don't want to pay him, make a counteroffer or walk away.  If he can't find people to pay him, he'll figure something else out.  But he's not wrong to ask to get paid.

+1

Dec 06 12 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Gianna Virginia
Posts: 178
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Chuckarelei wrote:
It doesn't matter who's concept or idea. It's whether everyone agrees to the terms and conditions. If not, move along and 'next'.

And, in my humble opinion from your sound of it; you have a portfolio mill gwc. stay away.

Actually the work this person shoots is very artistic and interesting. LOTS of photoshop and fantasy stuff. Thats what drew me to the concept. But I certainly wouldnt pay for it. Not because its not good work, but because its not my idea nor anything I need for my portfolio.

Dec 06 12 03:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
James Morgan aka Maddog
Posts: 102
Burlison, Tennessee, US


I tf my shots of my themed art projects, with the model knowing that if they sell... She gets a cut.
Dec 06 12 03:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SitronStudio
Posts: 1,058
Venice, Florida, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
You can always say "no" wink

I'm guessing that if the photographer was Steven Meisel or Mert & Marcus though, plenty of models might think that $300 was a small price to pay for a shoot, a few images and a chance to be considered for further work.




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

I doubt that Steven Meisel or M and M charge models to be in their shoots.

Dec 06 12 03:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,726
Belmont, California, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
If a photographer wants to shoot their own unique theme shouldnt it be either TFP or paid work for the model?

Replace "shouldn't it be" with "isn't it typically" and I'd agree with you 100 percent. Typically if I have a concept, I'm going to pay the model. The posting you're referring to is atypical, which I think is your point, but anybody can make up any offer for anything, so you were smart to focus on the differences and not get sucked into something you don't seem to want to do.

Gianna Virginia wrote:
...and depending on how the model perfoms for the shoot, they could be chosen to represent them in their magazine work.

Frankly this phrase is more of a red flag for me. As others have noted, ask to see the magazine and then dig into its history.

Dec 06 12 03:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Melodye Joy
Posts: 542
Rancho Cucamonga, California, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
Tell me if this is common practice. Im a bit confused about a recent photographer that I contacted.

Im not sure how I stumbled upon their profile but I did and saw that they were shooting a certain theme and needed models. I liked the idea and let them know that Id love to come on board (assuming it would be a trade). I failed to notice that this person only shoots for pay.

Once they got back to me they told me that this shoot was going to take roughly 1/2hr and the fee would be 300 bucks. I was like...Huh??
If a photographer wants to shoot their own unique theme shouldnt it be either TFP or paid work for the model? Im confused.

This is actually not a rant. I just never came across this sort of arrangement and want feedback.

Then I was told in return for my participation I would be limited to just a small handful of shots, and that any additional images would require more money.

Apparently this photog is looking for new faces and depending on how the model perfoms for the shoot, they could be chosen to represent them in their magazine work.

Has anyone ever heard of this sort of arrangement? I always figured that if a model agrees to participate in a photographers concept it would be trade or paid work.

Thoughts?

Did the artists travel/casting call mention pay or negotiable? If not, sounds like a case of an artist not being clear on what they want, who they seek and what fees/payment are involved.

Just my thoughts smile

Dec 06 12 03:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
ChristianMicah483
Posts: 20
Knoxville, Tennessee, US


SitronStudio[/quote wrote:

I doubt that Steven Meisel or M and M charge models to be in their shoots.

right?

Dec 06 12 03:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
Actually the work this person shoots is very artistic and interesting. LOTS of photoshop and fantasy stuff. Thats what drew me to the concept. But I certainly wouldnt pay for it. Not because its not good work, but because its not my idea nor anything I need for my portfolio.

Well I guess the real issue then is value...not who is responsible for the concept.

If Mario Testino or Patrick Demarchelier contacted you and offered you the opportunity to shoot with them for $300, would you even consider saying 'no' because it wasn't your concept? Probably not likely. As with most models, you'd jump at the privilege...and rightly so.

Dec 06 12 03:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


dp
Dec 06 12 03:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kev Lawson
Posts: 7,422
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Chuckarelei wrote:
It doesn't matter who's concept or idea. It's whether everyone agrees to the terms and conditions. If not, move along and 'next'.

And, in my humble opinion from your sound of it; you have a portfolio mill gwc. stay away.

+1

Dec 06 12 03:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kawika Photography
Posts: 110
San Diego, California, US


I had this cool response but just check them out. If you don't like what you see then move on. GL
Dec 06 12 03:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


SitronStudio wrote:
I doubt that Steven Meisel or M and M charge models to be in their shoots.

Well you can bet someone is paying them, whether it's a model/agency or a commercial client. They certainly aren't paying models or shooting unknown models TF*.

Dec 06 12 03:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Gianna Virginia
Posts: 178
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Toto Photo wrote:

Gianna Virginia wrote:
If a photographer wants to shoot their own unique theme shouldnt it be either TFP or paid work for the model?

Replace "shouldn't it be" with "isn't it typically" and I'd agree with you 100 percent. Typically if I have a concept, I'm going to pay the model. The posting you're referring to is atypical, which I think is your point, but anybody can make up any offer for anything, so you were smart to focus on the differences and not get sucked into something you don't seem to want to do.


Frankly this phrase is more of a red flag for me. As others have noted, ask to see the magazine and then dig into its history.

Thanks for the advice. The key words here are atypical and typical. Also thanks for pointing out the red flag bit.

Dec 06 12 03:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
Tell me if this is common practice. Im a bit confused about a recent photographer that I contacted.

Im not sure how I stumbled upon their profile but I did and saw that they were shooting a certain theme and needed models. I liked the idea and let them know that Id love to come on board (assuming it would be a trade). I failed to notice that this person only shoots for pay.

Once they got back to me they told me that this shoot was going to take roughly 1/2hr and the fee would be 300 bucks. I was like...Huh??
If a photographer wants to shoot their own unique theme shouldnt it be either TFP or paid work for the model? Im confused.

This is actually not a rant. I just never came across this sort of arrangement and want feedback.

Then I was told in return for my participation I would be limited to just a small handful of shots, and that any additional images would require more money.

Apparently this photog is looking for new faces and depending on how the model perfoms for the shoot, they could be chosen to represent them in their magazine work.

Has anyone ever heard of this sort of arrangement? I always figured that if a model agrees to participate in a photographers concept it would be trade or paid work.

Thoughts?

A lot of the time people are paying specifically because they want my ideas.

Sometimes it's in a bigger context that they've determined, but everything else is me.

I haven't had someone pay me to be part of an ongoing personal project.

Dec 06 12 04:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 16,288
Sacramento, California, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
Has anyone ever heard of this sort of arrangement? I always figured that if a model agrees to participate in a photographers concept it would be trade or paid work.

"figured", "assumed", "thought"

While I realize that this is a general networking site, I've always treated every communication as an actual professional job. Therefore, I don't assume, figure, thought or expect anything except specifics and facts.

Part of being professional is simply stating all the important things required to know before the job is accepted. One of those important things would be, "Is this a trade or paid?" Always ask or explain clearly what you expect. And sometimes, it pays to do it twice in writing. Even if it's a phone call, my policy is - I confirm it by e-mail or letter so it's in writing. Habit ingrained by long practice.

Many questions, rants and dramas that happen in the forums could be solved by clear communications of all the points you should cover before every job.

Dec 06 12 05:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,774
Atlanta, Georgia, US


It happens, but just like anything you need to decide the value to you.  Is it going to be a great image that gets you work, then maybe it's worth it; otherwise move on and don't waste time or energy on it.
Dec 06 12 06:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dannielle Levan
Posts: 12,857
New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Good example of where it pays to actually read what someone wrote, rather than to just assume what they had in mind

KM

This

Dec 06 12 06:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


SitronStudio wrote:
I doubt that Steven Meisel or M and M charge models to be in their shoots.

I think you may have missed the point I was making.

Of course they don't need to charge MM models - they shoot supermodels and get paid $$$ by clients to do so!

However, for $300, the chance to shoot with either of those teams would be the bargain of the century for most models on MM.



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Dec 06 12 07:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Colored Photos
Posts: 192
Los Angeles, California, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
Tell me if this is common practice. Im a bit confused about a recent photographer that I contacted.

Im not sure how I stumbled upon their profile but I did and saw that they were shooting a certain theme and needed models. I liked the idea and let them know that Id love to come on board (assuming it would be a trade). I failed to notice that this person only shoots for pay.

Once they got back to me they told me that this shoot was going to take roughly 1/2hr and the fee would be 300 bucks. I was like...Huh??
If a photographer wants to shoot their own unique theme shouldnt it be either TFP or paid work for the model? Im confused.

This is actually not a rant. I just never came across this sort of arrangement and want feedback.

Then I was told in return for my participation I would be limited to just a small handful of shots, and that any additional images would require more money.

Apparently this photog is looking for new faces and depending on how the model perfoms for the shoot, they could be chosen to represent them in their magazine work.

Has anyone ever heard of this sort of arrangement? I always figured that if a model agrees to participate in a photographers concept it would be trade or paid work.

Thoughts?

If you are paying, the shoot should be tailored to your needs, wants, desires, concepts. If he is shooting something specific, like a personal concept, then he needs to be paying the model. You should just ignore it and move on.

Personally the two things that bother me, is when a model approaches me to want to shoot and then throws me a fee. and so the same goes with a photographer. If I am creating a personal concept, I pay the model.

Sounds like he is using some gimmick to cast models and then turns it around to charge them. Just avoid it.

Dec 07 12 12:40 am  Link  Quote 
Model
MB JenB
Posts: 3,036
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
...I did and saw that they were shooting a certain theme and needed models. I liked the idea and let them know that Id love to come on board (assuming it would be a trade). I failed to notice that this person only shoots for pay.

Once they got back to me they told me that this shoot was going to take roughly 1/2hr and the fee would be 300 bucks...

Then I was told in return for my participation I would be limited to just a small handful of shots, and that any additional images would require more money.

Has anyone ever heard of this sort of arrangement?..
Thoughts?

Sounds like you answered a casting and he wanted money yet that he only wanted to offer you trade-term prints.

I'd walk. Sounds like this person is very confusing or out to take advantage of you.
Jen

Dec 07 12 05:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kawika Photography
Posts: 110
San Diego, California, US


Interesting approach. I guess they can ask whatever they want just like the model can answer however they want. GL
Dec 07 12 09:31 pm  Link  Quote 
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