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Body Painter
Lisa Berczel
Posts: 3,961
Corona, California, US


Moderator Note!
This discussion is a good example of solid information - even if it isn't the discussion the OP was looking for.

So long as the discussion remains a conversation focused on what is considered a Professional in the industry, the tread will remain.

If the thread derails into Bashing and Critique it will be locked.
Mar 26 13 08:16 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Julia Spenadel
Posts: 16
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


I think everyone is totally overreacting. It seemed like the OP was just curious and no one really answered his question.

I think its efficiency, ability to asses a face and create what will look best (rather than saying I want to do smokey eyes and you're getting smokey eyes!), sanitation (no blowing on false lashes to dry) , and of course skills.

Judging from the photo, I don't think the makeup was that bad, nor was it that good..if anything the MUA should have kept a better eye on the model throughout the shoot. It looks like a case of good makeup gone bad after a few hours .
Mar 26 13 02:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,290
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Death of Field wrote:
This is a TEST photo not an ad campaign.

Don't expect a high budget production from test shoots.
This includes the MUA.

You're being tested on a low production quick shot, not a high end beauty campaign.

So YES this could be done by a very professional MUA.
Erlinda wrote:
Sounds like you're clueless and don't expect much from your testing team. roll

+1 Why would anyone do a test if the result wasn't accurate and the images were worthless?  Would a professional baseball team practice with a wiffle ball just because its a test of how the real game should go?

The OP has every expectation of test images being as high a quality as those team members can produce every day.

Mar 26 13 02:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
SmashinBeauty
Posts: 42
Budapest, Budapest, Hungary


Chicchowmein wrote:
Just my opinion but I don't think that a retoucher posting a before picture without permission would make me want to send work to said retoucher.

Bad form IMHO

I think it(s not smart to expose other people's work like this since it's can backlash on to you retoucher! Just like Chicchowmein states.

Also, no matter how much work you put into free work, you still will have no copyrights over it (unless it was given to you in written form, then you have right to do with it what you like)

I think an MUA should give her best every time no matter it be a test run or not.

Unless these pictures where intentionally made like this to have a retoucher show their skills.

I also am now very curious as to how you would have or have retouched this since I have seen your work and it is very good!

Mar 27 13 09:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
H A Z E
Posts: 82
London, England, United Kingdom


I find that working with a PRO make up artist will make your life easier, as the images you produce will require very little retouching as the make up has been perfected to a high standard on set and within a short amount of time. You simply show them what you want and they deliver, they may make suggestions but if you say no, they wont argue and just stick with your ideas. Most stay focused and they create looks after looks, not spend their time chatting/texting etc. In the end you will have lots of images to choose from, at least 8 different looks for the day. These are the ones worth paying.

Whereas with some amateur/bad ones, I would occasionally have to send the images to a Retoucher because even I can't fix them or don't have the patience to clean it up. I do ask MUAs to clean things up when I see something messy but when you have sent them back 3 times and waited at least 2 to 3 hours already, sending them back to fix it again isn't going to make much of a difference. In this case I pay the Retoucher instead.

It is a shame as their portfolios looked promising but I guess it just shows that sometimes it is the Photographers and retouchers who do an amazing job fixing up other peoples' bad work.
Mar 27 13 08:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Lisa Mae Russell
Posts: 66
Petoskey, Michigan, US


I know that I'm kind of just getting into all of this, but I think people are being a little too touchy. It's equally as much his work as the photographer, model, and MUA. I think that if one person produces poor work, it effects the entire project, so Zorka is well within his right to both be irritated and ask for opinion.
I also think he avoided 'unprofessional' by doing the following things:
He didn't give any names, which is huge.
He didn't offer the entire photo, just some close-ups of what he was having issues with.
He just asked a simple question.
Having said all of that, in my personal opinion, and having only done makeup a handful of times on other models, these photos are barely distinguishable from some girl at the mall who had 20 minutes to get ready or her friends were leaving without her.
I understand your frustration, Zorka.
Apr 02 13 04:51 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
MAGIC FX
Posts: 347
New York, New York, US


In my opinion what distinguishes a PRO MUA from a want-to-be MUA, is business.  Many fantastic MUA's have the skills but not the business sense.  And many so so MUA's have the skills to broker deals, market themselves and keep a steady stream of clients to make a great living.  A professional "working" MUA knows that the industry is small and reputation is everything.  We know that other MUA's (our peers) mistakes could just as easily have been our mistakes before we perfected our craft. Most beauty photography you see in VOGUE and publications like these are very retouched regardless of the MUA's skills, and thankfully so, or you're industry would be obsolete.
Apr 02 13 06:54 am  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
TheMakeupMan
Posts: 3,748
Los Angeles, California, US


Honestly this says more about you and your lack of vision  than the makeup artist

you really dont know what they were going for

alot of times we are Testing  different tecniques and products knowing there willl be some love in PS to polish it up

A muddy or dirty  eye could be what they were going for,,,,,, I have an image very simular in my beauty book of the same "dirty eye " 

the lip ........ alot of times youll see in modern style fashion makeup lips that arent perfectly colored ,    color seaping into line , lips intentional made to look dry and blocthy , not filled to the corners , I know I have been asked many times to create makeups where it looked like it was just smeared on and asked to leave the makeup raw
(raw dirty looking makeup was all the rage last year and comes in and out of high fashion stories all the time ) 

the point is , you just dont know , you werent there , the point could have totally been to create exactly what they did and you dont get it and honestly its not yours to judge ............
you were hired to polish it up

you cannot tell if it was from a pro or not becouse you werent there , was a part of the creation of the look or mood or style they were looking to express

what saddens me is you share the same professional  confidentiality we do with our teams and actors with unretouched images that should NEVER see the light of day and posted this on a public forum

I have a friend who retouches vogue covers and many high end covers and have seen what they look like before ps .......... and you would probably raise the same question ,,,,,,,,,   but its not yours to judge or display publicly and thats upsetting becouse now NO ONE will trust you to retouch an image , you just shot yourself in the foot my friend

part of what distinguishes a pro from an amature is knowing when to keep your mouth shut and not post things that will or can bite you on the ass .................
Apr 02 13 09:00 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
DawnaJeanMUA
Posts: 5
Brockton, Massachusetts, US


I think this thread is a GREAT example and way to discuss the types of makeup there is out there.

As far as the term “professional”-well I would consider myself to be professional. My brushes are clean, my kit clean, I always arrive on time, with help if needed, am responsible, respond to emails and calls, and make sure a girl feels beautiful.

With that said I most to bridal makeup. I would never have time to pluck eyebrows with 12 bridesmaids standing around fighting, wedding planners running in and out, mothers of brides crying, flower girls running around. NEVER. If I did, I would run late and that would be UN-professional.
Also, in the area I live in the brides tend to be more natural and like that. If I ever started plucking eyebrows at a trial the girl would jump out of the chair and I would never book a job.

If I used orange lipstick in a fashion shoot I could totally rock a look, if I put orange on a bride I would have tears.   Makeup is like photography, many different styles and many different approaches. Not just professional or non-professional.
Apr 02 13 01:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,801
Buena Park, California, US


Looks a bit dirty.  I don't recall having to fix that from any of my really good MUAs.

As for the lips...those look like old lady lips.  Without knowing what look they were going for, the parts that "seeped" into the lip texture looks unappealing.
Apr 02 13 01:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
rick lesser
Posts: 688
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


Lisa Mae Russell wrote:
I know that I'm kind of just getting into all of this, but I think people are being a little too touchy. It's equally as much his work as the photographer, llama, and MUA. I think that if one person produces poor work, it effects the entire project, so Zorka is well within his right to both be irritated and ask for opinion.
I also think he avoided 'unprofessional' by doing the following things:
He didn't give any names, which is huge.
He didn't offer the entire photo, just some close-ups of what he was having issues with.
He just asked a simple question.
Having said all of that, in my personal opinion, and having only done makeup a handful of times on other llamas, these photos are barely distinguishable from some girl at the mall who had 20 minutes to get ready or her friends were leaving without her.
I understand your frustration, Zorka.

Apr 02 13 04:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
rick lesser
Posts: 688
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


I'm with Lisa on this.  And Zorka, love your work (P.S. She's a girl)!!!  R-
Apr 02 13 04:30 pm  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
TheMakeupMan
Posts: 3,748
Los Angeles, California, US


Zorka wrote:
but after suggesting the photographer to maybe start thinking of hiring a new MUA (this time a PRO! smile ) he told me that his MUA is a pro!

( this is the most upsetting part  )

Who are you to say that ??????
that my dear is sooooooo unprofessional of you
You broke ettiquette in such a horrible manner, way out of line , none of your business and demeaning the artist,your suppose to be part of the "team" and you threw the artist under the bus .........  and your supposed to be trusted with images before editing and magazine release 

Id be surprised if they ever work with you again ,,,,, I certainly would not 

pose this same question in the photographers forum or models but use them as the subject , whats the difference from a pro photographer , or model and see how they react lol

Confidentiality !!!!!

let me ask you ..... whats the difference between a pro retoucher and a want to be  .........

So were you comming here to really get a sense of what we Pro s think is the difference between a pro and amature, or were you here to really just trash someone ..................

Apr 02 13 07:33 pm  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,119
Coronado, California, US


TheMakeupMan wrote:
( this is the most upsetting part  )

Who are you to say that ??????
that my dear is sooooooo unprofessional of you
You broke ettiquette in such a horrible manner, way out of line , none of your business and demeaning the artist,your suppose to be part of the "team" and you threw the artist under the bus .........  and your supposed to be trusted with images before editing and magazine release 

Id be surprised if they ever work with you again ,,,,, I certainly would not 

pose this same question in the photographers forum or models but use them as the subject , whats the difference from a pro photographer , or model and see how they react lol

Confidentiality !!!!!

let me ask you ..... whats the difference between a pro retoucher and a want to be  .........

So were you comming here to really get a sense of what we Pro s think is the difference between a pro and amature, or were you here to really just trash someone ..................

agree here.....OP tossed the artist under the bus ran over her/him.... But something tells me he or she will get up again and move on..... His or her reputation is still in tact smile.... This smear campaign disguised as a "question" rarely works in the posters favor

Apr 03 13 02:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Lea Halliwell
Posts: 3,939
Lexington, Kentucky, US


Seriously? The op asked a question. Those of you bashing him/her need to shut the fuck up or answer the question.
He/she didn't ask anything about the photography, only the makeup. Its not your places to judge his/her motive or professionalism. For all you know, he/she has permission to post it!

This shit is exactly why I left the forums. People get stupid & butthurt over shit that doesn't affect them or have anything to do with the thread.
Apr 03 13 03:22 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Lisa Mae Russell
Posts: 66
Petoskey, Michigan, US


rick lesser wrote:
I'm with Lisa on this.  And Zorka, love your work (P.S. She's a girl)!!!  R-

Oh!! Oops!

Apr 03 13 03:36 am  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Castorena stylist
Posts: 22
San Diego, California, US


Aside from the ethics, or whatever.

The makeup is a hot mess! I don't think there is a universal definition of what a MUA PRO is (?) but I would say that the person who did that makeup is def. not a pro.. or maybe he/she was sick/hungover lol
Apr 04 13 12:04 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Cynna Stylz MUA
Posts: 216
New York, New York, US


It's hard to say what was asked of the MUA if you and I were not part of the conversation. I was once asked to put makeup on a model in a photo shoot. She wasn't 18yo yet but looked 12yo. I applied neutral light makeup and touch of eyeliner. He wanted her to look more like an adult so I asked her chaperone if I should make her look older. Now since this was TFP I wanted great pics but I actually felt uncomfortable doing so. I still did it and as soon as the shoot was done I wiped it all off before she walked out the door (more to ease my conscience) . Test shots are just that. Your vision will simply be different from someone else.  Please take this as a learning experience to help you communicate clearly with MUA's you plan on working with.

Good Luck
Apr 04 13 09:13 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Heather J M
Posts: 711
London, England, United Kingdom


TheMakeupMan wrote:
Honestly this says more about you and your lack of vision  than the makeup artist

you really dont know what they were going for

alot of times we are Testing  different tecniques and products knowing there willl be some love in PS to polish it up

A muddy or dirty  eye could be what they were going for,,,,,, I have an image very simular in my beauty book of the same "dirty eye " 

the lip ........ alot of times youll see in modern style fashion makeup lips that arent perfectly colored ,    color seaping into line , lips intentional made to look dry and blocthy , not filled to the corners , I know I have been asked many times to create makeups where it looked like it was just smeared on and asked to leave the makeup raw
(raw dirty looking makeup was all the rage last year and comes in and out of high fashion stories all the time ) 


the point is , you just dont know , you werent there , the point could have totally been to create exactly what they did and you dont get it and honestly its not yours to judge ............
you were hired to polish it up

you cannot tell if it was from a pro or not becouse you werent there , was a part of the creation of the look or mood or style they were looking to express...

+1

I don't see what the big deal is? Your role isn't to judge the makeup choices. I see a little fall out(possibly ill placed glitter), I see some stray eyebrow hairs, I see the gloss no longer reaches the edge of the lip, I see the foundation has worn off under the eye. What you have presented are some very out of context close ups, a level of detail never intended as the final image. I'd assume that the minimal smokey liner and the bled out lip colour were an artistic choice, and the rest is wear and tear through the shoot. The hairs could have been cleaned up, but very natural brows have not vanished from the catwalks so the model may have not been permitted to alter them.

It's not setting the world alight with its avant garde design, and personally the glitter is not a choice I'd make, but if this was the look desired on set then surely your role is to polish it? It might be an idea in future to ask for the brief or theme before agreeing to a test, and even to be copied in on mood boards/story designs etc.

Regarding your initial question the basic answer is money. If you make your living from makeup, then you can call it your profession, whatever attributes that have led you to that place. There are many journeyman makeup artists who will never sell books based on their works but who are nonetheless professionals for that. There are probably far more thwarted amateurs out there who, though they can make some beautiful faces, for whatever lack be it opportunity/geography/drive/motivation/people skills/oral hygiene will never truly be able to quit their day job and go pro.

Apr 04 13 05:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Leila Nadine
Posts: 36
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


I'd say stay in the safety zone and in good stead as far as your name goes, if you don't like the makeup artist or their work maybe don't work with them again instead of showcasing their work on a site where they may well be trying to network, gain experience & work. Everyone can make a mistake but potentially tarnishing their chances for next time? I'd steer clear!
Apr 04 13 06:28 pm  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,119
Coronado, California, US


Lea Halliwell wrote:
Seriously? The op asked a question. Those of you bashing him/her need to shut the fuck up or answer the question.
He/she didn't ask anything about the photography, only the makeup. Its not your places to judge his/her motive or professionalism. For all you know, he/she has permission to post it!

This shit is exactly why I left the forums. People get stupid & butthurt over shit that doesn't affect them or have anything to do with the thread.

It's very unwise to believe your opinion is more important than others...Telling people to "shut the F up" because you don't agree  with their opinion really is immature.  Your language is appalling and distracts from any bit of  professionalism this board had...I think you were better off just staying away from the forums if they effect you this negatively. 

You're not an artist and really don't have a dog in this race... maybe get a hobby?

Apr 04 13 08:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Adina Pintilie
Posts: 18
Spring Lake Heights, New Jersey, US


Mary wrote:
....... a Professional is someone that shows up on time, when and where they are supposed to be... With the tools they need.... A professional is someone that never speaks poorly of their fellow artists skills in public....A professional is a strong team player who lifts those around them up and tries to make everyone the best they can be at whatever they do.

I hope these lines echoed.

Apr 04 13 09:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mike Kelcher
Posts: 12,712
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Two things.

1. The OP has been accused of all sorts of wrong-doing, yet probably did no harm unless somebody knows who the photographer, model, or MUA is. Without that knowledge, there's no harm done to anyone.

2. To answer the OP's question.... many people call themselves "makeup artists". Some people who refer to themselves as "makeup artists" actually make money applying makeup and therefore fall into the very broad category of "professional makeup artists". A "professional" is simply someone who makes money doing something.

Makeup artists are a dime a dozen. Most don't deserve the word "artist" as an adjective describing what they do. In my humble opinion, most are merely "makeup application technicians"....which means "people who apply makeup". A true makeup "artist", applies makeup in a manner where a person's face is like a "canvas" that they apply makeup to in a manner that could only be considered "art". True makeup "artists" are rare, but once you've worked with one, and have enjoyed editing the resulting images, it's not hard to see that some of these people truly deserve to be called "artists" and the quality of their work is top notch. The OP mentioned some names of some famous MUA's, and while fame is great, there are others whose work is also top notch but they lack the desire or never had the opportunity to obtain fame.

Just as some professional photographers are better than others, and just as some professional models are better than others, MUA's differ in experience and quality...and...some are better than others. Like all artists, our work speaks for itself and it's either "art" or it's not.

With regard to the posted images, I'm not impressed by the work of the model or the makeup person. Models that deserve a magazine cover work hard on their appearance, they eat right, they sleep, they moisturize, they drink lots of water, and do a lot of things right in order to manage their appearance. MUA's that deserve covers find a way to minimize "flaws" in facial tonality, texture, and structure while maximizing the beauty of the model. A good photographer sees this beauty, lights, poses and photographs it in a manner that results in an image filled with artistic beauty, which is further enhanced by retouching. If everyone involved did a great job, the results will be awesome, but like a chain, the weakest link is where the problems lie. A true "artist" of any sort, produces results that can only be called "art"...the rest is like oats that have already gone through a horse.
Apr 04 13 09:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Adina Pintilie
Posts: 18
Spring Lake Heights, New Jersey, US


Mike Kelcher wrote:
... many people call themselves "makeup artists". Some people who refer to themselves as "makeup artists" actually make money applying makeup and therefore fall into the very broad category of "professional makeup artists". A "professional" is simply someone who makes money doing something.

Makeup artists are a dime a dozen. Most don't deserve the word "artist" as an adjective describing what they do. In my humble opinion, most are merely "makeup application technicians"....which means "people who apply makeup". A true makeup "artist", applies makeup in a manner where a person's face is like a "canvas" that they apply makeup to in a manner that could only be considered "art". True makeup "artists" are rare, but once you've worked with one, and have enjoyed editing the resulting images, it's not hard to see that some of these people truly deserve to be called "artists" and the quality of their work is top notch.
Just as some professional photographers are better than others, and just as some professional models are better than others, MUA's differ in experience and quality...and...some are better than others. Like all artists, our work speaks for itself and it's either "art" or it's not.

With regard to the posted images, I'm not impressed by the work of the model or the makeup person. Models that deserve a magazine cover work hard on their appearance, they eat right, they sleep, they moisturize, they drink lots of water, and do a lot of things right in order to manage their appearance. MUA's that deserve covers find a way to minimize "flaws" in facial tonality, texture, and structure while maximizing the beauty of the model. A good photographer sees this beauty, lights, poses and photographs it in a manner that results in an image filled with artistic beauty, which is further enhanced by retouching. If everyone involved did a great job, the results will be awesome, but like a chain, the weakest link is where the problems lie. A true "artist" of any sort, produces results that can only be called "art"...the rest is like oats that have already gone through a horse.

You are so right. Totally agree with your statements.

Apr 05 13 09:03 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
The AR project
Posts: 78
New York, New York, US


Posing the question without the images would have been in better taste.  I'm not sure if you were going for the shock value.  Perhaps the feedback could have been more constructive.  maybe smile

Asking for critique/feedback on work that is not your own or one you have been hired to work on mirrors poor work ethics and questionable character.  Leaving us with the an example of "What NOT TO DO as a professional"?

This is just one to grow on!

0.02
Apr 06 13 04:08 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
ImageBeautique
Posts: 169
London, England, United Kingdom


Mary wrote:
It's very unwise to believe your opinion is more important than others...Telling people to "shut the F up" because you don't agree  with their opinion really is immature.  Your language is appalling and distracts from any bit of  professionalism this board had...I think you were better off just staying away from the forums if they effect you this negatively. 

You're not an artist and really don't have a dog in this race... maybe get a hobby?

^^^^ my thoughts exactly!




But to answer the original question (etiquette etc aside) personally I find the makeup appalling, in my eyes a PRO makeup artist would stay on set until the very end to make sure fall down  (like in the photo) doesn't happen and so the makeup stays 'fresh' looking throughout.
The makeup looks like it has deteriorated over time and under bright, hot lights. If the MUA had left the set then I find that unprofessional but also if the MUA was on set throughout and hadn't cleaned this up then I also find that unprofessional!   

And to the people saying this was 'only a test shoot' I find that outrageous!!! Surely any professional, whether that be a photographer, MUA, stylist or model should use theirs skills to the best of their ability whether they are on a paid shoot or a test shoot!?

Apr 06 13 02:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Ash Mathews
Posts: 251
Los Angeles, California, US


Mike Kelcher wrote:
Two things.

1. The OP has been accused of all sorts of wrong-doing, yet probably did no harm unless somebody knows who the photographer, llama, or MUA is. Without that knowledge, there's no harm done to anyone.

2. To answer the OP's question.... many people call themselves "makeup artists". Some people who refer to themselves as "makeup artists" actually make money applying makeup and therefore fall into the very broad category of "professional makeup artists". A "professional" is simply someone who makes money doing something.

Makeup artists are a dime a dozen. Most don't deserve the word "artist" as an adjective describing what they do. In my humble opinion, most are merely "makeup application technicians"....which means "people who apply makeup". A true makeup "artist", applies makeup in a manner where a person's face is like a "canvas" that they apply makeup to in a manner that could only be considered "art". True makeup "artists" are rare, but once you've worked with one, and have enjoyed editing the resulting images, it's not hard to see that some of these people truly deserve to be called "artists" and the quality of their work is top notch. The OP mentioned some names of some famous MUA's, and while fame is great, there are others whose work is also top notch but they lack the desire or never had the opportunity to obtain fame.

Just as some professional photographers are better than others, and just as some professional llamas are better than others, MUA's differ in experience and quality...and...some are better than others. Like all artists, our work speaks for itself and it's either "art" or it's not.

With regard to the posted images, I'm not impressed by the work of the llama or the makeup person. llamas that deserve a magazine cover work hard on their appearance, they eat right, they sleep, they moisturize, they drink lots of water, and do a lot of things right in order to manage their appearance. MUA's that deserve covers find a way to minimize "flaws" in facial tonality, texture, and structure while maximizing the beauty of the llama. A good photographer sees this beauty, lights, poses and photographs it in a manner that results in an image filled with artistic beauty, which is further enhanced by retouching. If everyone involved did a great job, the results will be awesome, but like a chain, the weakest link is where the problems lie. A true "artist" of any sort, produces results that can only be called "art"...the rest is like oats that have already gone through a horse.

This!  1

Apr 06 13 10:55 pm  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
TheMakeupMan
Posts: 3,748
Los Angeles, California, US


Lea Halliwell wrote:
Seriously? The op asked a question. Those of you bashing him/her need to shut the fuck up or answer the question.
He/she didn't ask anything about the photography, only the makeup. Its not your places to judge his/her motive or professionalism. For all you know, he/she has permission to post it!

This shit is exactly why I left the forums. People get stupid & butthurt over shit that doesn't affect them or have anything to do with the thread.

If they wanted a makeup critic , go to the critic section
and btw , grow up .....................

Apr 07 13 07:54 am  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
TheMakeupMan
Posts: 3,748
Los Angeles, California, US


The AR project wrote:
Posing the question without the images would have been in better taste.  I'm not sure if you were going for the shock value.  Perhaps the feedback could have been more constructive.  maybe smile

Asking for critique/feedback on work that is not your own or one you have been hired to work on mirrors poor work ethics and questionable character.  Leaving us with the an example of "What NOT TO DO as a professional"?

This is just one to grow on!

0.02

exactly , Thank you

Apr 07 13 07:55 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Makeup Hair by Dani B
Posts: 720
Seattle, Washington, US


Oh my. Oh dear.

In the world where people actually get paid regularly to do this and live off what they make, where people don't gossip/swear/belittle/degrade others' work at work or in professional arenas, where artists of all kinds support each other....this sort of thing just doesn't exist.

2 decades in, I've seen it over and over. Those who do not do the above I have perhaps met or worked with once...then never seen or heard of again.

Being nice, having a sense of humor, being adaptable, being humble...trump creativity and skills every time. You may not think it's right or fair, it's just the way it is.
Apr 07 13 03:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5,062
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Makeup by Dani B wrote:
Oh my. Oh dear.

In the world where people actually get paid regularly to do this and live off what they make, where people don't gossip/swear/belittle/degrade others' work at work or in professional arenas, where artists of all kinds support each other....this sort of thing just doesn't exist.

2 decades in, I've seen it over and over. Those who do not do the above I have perhaps met or worked with once...then never seen or heard of again.

Being nice, having a sense of humor, being adaptable, being humble...trump creativity and skills every time. You may not think it's right or fair, it's just the way it is.

Going the extra mile doesn't hurt either. Like going out of your way to do makeup for a shoot on short notice, even if it's inconvenient. People remember other people who do things like that.

Apr 07 13 04:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
UK_Makeup_Artist
Posts: 896
Liverpool, England, United Kingdom


To every artist who has offered a critique of the "mistakes" in those photos, I say shame on you.

How would you feel if you stumbled upon a thread bashing your work? The retoucher wasnt there, he doesnt know the artist and had no right to post those pictures.

I know the relationships professional photographers build with retouchers and without permission they absolutely CANNOT show before/after shots. There must be a written agreement in place so to the OP I say, "I seriously hope you have a written agreement to show the unretouched images because they are not yours to post..." Little thing called copyright and all.

I am not even going to answer the question of professional/unprofessional because that is a smoke screen for the OP's original intent which was to get everyone squabbling. Troll.
Apr 07 13 09:41 pm  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
TheMakeupMan
Posts: 3,748
Los Angeles, California, US


UK_Makeup_Artist wrote:
To every artist who has offered a critique of the "mistakes" in those photos, I say shame on you.

How would you feel if you stumbled upon a thread bashing your work? The retoucher wasnt there, he doesnt know the artist and had no right to post those pictures.

I know the relationships professional photographers build with retouchers and without permission they absolutely CANNOT show before/after shots. There must be a written agreement in place so to the OP I say, "I seriously hope you have a written agreement to show the unretouched images because they are not yours to post..." Little thing called copyright and all.

I am not even going to answer the question of professional/unprofessional because that is a smoke screen for the OP's original intent which was to get everyone squabbling. Troll.

Exactly.   Bravo!

Apr 08 13 08:11 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,119
Coronado, California, US


UK_Makeup_Artist wrote:
To every artist who has offered a critique of the "mistakes" in those photos, I say shame on you.

How would you feel if you stumbled upon a thread bashing your work? The retoucher wasnt there, he doesnt know the artist and had no right to post those pictures.

I know the relationships professional photographers build with retouchers and without permission they absolutely CANNOT show before/after shots. There must be a written agreement in place so to the OP I say, "I seriously hope you have a written agreement to show the unretouched images because they are not yours to post..." Little thing called copyright and all.

I am not even going to answer the question of professional/unprofessional because that is a smoke screen for the OP's original intent which was to get everyone squabbling. Troll.

yep.... You called it.  I have no problem critiquing someones work if they ask for it.. Or if they are doing Vogue or some other high profile job (that's fair game IMO)  You want celeb status you take the knocks with it... But this is just a shot sent to a re-toucher  and in my opinion that's a relationship like doctor/patient...it's sacred

Apr 09 13 06:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
MA YE
Posts: 37
New York, New York, US


Talk about turning an attempt at something educational into a pointing and shouting match, why do people even attempt to make an effort on here anymore?
Apr 09 13 08:02 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
KJB
Posts: 1,183
New York, New York, US


UK_Makeup_Artist wrote:
To every artist who has offered a critique of the "mistakes" in those photos, I say shame on you.

How would you feel if you stumbled upon a thread bashing your work? The retoucher wasnt there, he doesnt know the artist and had no right to post those pictures.

I know the relationships professional photographers build with retouchers and without permission they absolutely CANNOT show before/after shots. There must be a written agreement in place so to the OP I say, "I seriously hope you have a written agreement to show the unretouched images because they are not yours to post..." Little thing called copyright and all.

I am not even going to answer the question of professional/unprofessional because that is a smoke screen for the OP's original intent which was to get everyone squabbling. Troll.

BINGO!!!

Apr 10 13 04:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Jackie McClay MUA
Posts: 154
Edison, New Jersey, US


Apr 17 13 01:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Tara Pagliara MUA
Posts: 701
New York, New York, US


Lisa Mae Russell wrote:
I know that I'm kind of just getting into all of this, but I think people are being a little too touchy. It's equally as much his work as the photographer, llama, and MUA. I think that if one person produces poor work, it effects the entire project, so Zorka is well within his right to both be irritated and ask for opinion.
I also think he avoided 'unprofessional' by doing the following things:
He didn't give any names, which is huge.
He didn't offer the entire photo, just some close-ups of what he was having issues with.
He just asked a simple question.
Having said all of that, in my personal opinion, and having only done makeup a handful of times on other llamas, these photos are barely distinguishable from some girl at the mall who had 20 minutes to get ready or her friends were leaving without her.
I understand your frustration, Zorka.

Um, call me crazy but wouldn't it only be his work if he showed the retouched images?

Apr 18 13 01:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
UK_Makeup_Artist
Posts: 896
Liverpool, England, United Kingdom


Mary wrote:
yep.... You called it.  I have no problem critiquing someones work if they ask for it.. Or if they are doing Vogue or some other high profile job (that's fair game IMO)  You want celeb status you take the knocks with it... But this is just a shot sent to a re-toucher  and in my opinion that's a relationship like doctor/patient...it's sacred

EXACTLY Mary. I cant believe so many other artists were so quick to jump on another makeup artist who isnt even here to defend their choices. He/She could have had 5 minutes, on set under the lights to change a look...we have no idea. The photographer could have said "dont waste time, ill get them to fix it in post" How many times have we all heard that when time is running out?! Shocking.

Apr 19 13 07:06 pm  Link  Quote 
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