Death of Field wrote:
This is a TEST photo not an ad campaign.

Don't expect a high budget production from test shoots.
This includes the MUA.

You're being tested on a low production quick shot, not a high end beauty campaign.

So YES this could be done by a very professional MUA.

Erlinda wrote:
Sounds like you're clueless and don't expect much from your testing team.

+1 Why would anyone do a test if the result wasn't accurate and the images were worthless?  Would a professional baseball team practice with a wiffle ball just because its a test of how the real game should go?

The OP has every expectation of test images being as high a quality as those team members can produce every day.

Chicchowmein wrote:
Just my opinion but I don't think that a retoucher posting a before picture without permission would make me want to send work to said retoucher.

Bad form IMHO

I think it(s not smart to expose other people's work like this since it's can backlash on to you retoucher! Just like Chicchowmein states.

Also, no matter how much work you put into free work, you still will have no copyrights over it (unless it was given to you in written form, then you have right to do with it what you like)

I think an MUA should give her best every time no matter it be a test run or not.

Unless these pictures where intentionally made like this to have a retoucher show their skills.

I also am now very curious as to how you would have or have retouched this since I have seen your work and it is very good!

Lisa Mae Russell wrote:
I know that I'm kind of just getting into all of this, but I think people are being a little too touchy. It's equally as much his work as the photographer, llama, and MUA. I think that if one person produces poor work, it effects the entire project, so Zorka is well within his right to both be irritated and ask for opinion.
I also think he avoided 'unprofessional' by doing the following things:
He didn't give any names, which is huge.
He didn't offer the entire photo, just some close-ups of what he was having issues with.
He just asked a simple question.
Having said all of that, in my personal opinion, and having only done makeup a handful of times on other llamas, these photos are barely distinguishable from some girl at the mall who had 20 minutes to get ready or her friends were leaving without her.
I understand your frustration, Zorka.

Zorka wrote:
but after suggesting the photographer to maybe start thinking of hiring a new MUA (this time a PRO! ) he told me that his MUA is a pro!

( this is the most upsetting part  )

Who are you to say that ??????
that my dear is sooooooo unprofessional of you
You broke ettiquette in such a horrible manner, way out of line , none of your business and demeaning the artist,your suppose to be part of the "team" and you threw the artist under the bus .........  and your supposed to be trusted with images before editing and magazine release 

Id be surprised if they ever work with you again ,,,,, I certainly would not 

pose this same question in the photographers forum or models but use them as the subject , whats the difference from a pro photographer , or model and see how they react lol

Confidentiality !!!!!

let me ask you ..... whats the difference between a pro retoucher and a want to be  .........

So were you comming here to really get a sense of what we Pro s think is the difference between a pro and amature, or were you here to really just trash someone ..................

TheMakeupMan wrote:
( this is the most upsetting part  )

Who are you to say that ??????
that my dear is sooooooo unprofessional of you
You broke ettiquette in such a horrible manner, way out of line , none of your business and demeaning the artist,your suppose to be part of the "team" and you threw the artist under the bus .........  and your supposed to be trusted with images before editing and magazine release 

Id be surprised if they ever work with you again ,,,,, I certainly would not 

pose this same question in the photographers forum or models but use them as the subject , whats the difference from a pro photographer , or model and see how they react lol

Confidentiality !!!!!

let me ask you ..... whats the difference between a pro retoucher and a want to be  .........

So were you comming here to really get a sense of what we Pro s think is the difference between a pro and amature, or were you here to really just trash someone ..................

agree here.....OP tossed the artist under the bus ran over her/him.... But something tells me he or she will get up again and move on..... His or her reputation is still in tact .... This smear campaign disguised as a "question" rarely works in the posters favor

rick lesser wrote:
I'm with Lisa on this.  And Zorka, love your work (P.S. She's a girl)!!!  R-

Oh!! Oops!

TheMakeupMan wrote:
Honestly this says more about you and your lack of vision  than the makeup artist

you really dont know what they were going for

alot of times we are Testing  different tecniques and products knowing there willl be some love in PS to polish it up

A muddy or dirty  eye could be what they were going for,,,,,, I have an image very simular in my beauty book of the same "dirty eye " 

the lip ........ alot of times youll see in modern style fashion makeup lips that arent perfectly colored ,    color seaping into line , lips intentional made to look dry and blocthy , not filled to the corners , I know I have been asked many times to create makeups where it looked like it was just smeared on and asked to leave the makeup raw
(raw dirty looking makeup was all the rage last year and comes in and out of high fashion stories all the time ) 

the point is , you just dont know , you werent there , the point could have totally been to create exactly what they did and you dont get it and honestly its not yours to judge ............
you were hired to polish it up

you cannot tell if it was from a pro or not becouse you werent there , was a part of the creation of the look or mood or style they were looking to express...

+1

I don't see what the big deal is? Your role isn't to judge the makeup choices. I see a little fall out(possibly ill placed glitter), I see some stray eyebrow hairs, I see the gloss no longer reaches the edge of the lip, I see the foundation has worn off under the eye. What you have presented are some very out of context close ups, a level of detail never intended as the final image. I'd assume that the minimal smokey liner and the bled out lip colour were an artistic choice, and the rest is wear and tear through the shoot. The hairs could have been cleaned up, but very natural brows have not vanished from the catwalks so the model may have not been permitted to alter them.

It's not setting the world alight with its avant garde design, and personally the glitter is not a choice I'd make, but if this was the look desired on set then surely your role is to polish it? It might be an idea in future to ask for the brief or theme before agreeing to a test, and even to be copied in on mood boards/story designs etc.

Regarding your initial question the basic answer is money. If you make your living from makeup, then you can call it your profession, whatever attributes that have led you to that place. There are many journeyman makeup artists who will never sell books based on their works but who are nonetheless professionals for that. There are probably far more thwarted amateurs out there who, though they can make some beautiful faces, for whatever lack be it opportunity/geography/drive/motivation/people skills/oral hygiene will never truly be able to quit their day job and go pro.

Lea Halliwell wrote:
Seriously? The op asked a question. Those of you bashing him/her need to shut the fuck up or answer the question.
He/she didn't ask anything about the photography, only the makeup. Its not your places to judge his/her motive or professionalism. For all you know, he/she has permission to post it!

This shit is exactly why I left the forums. People get stupid & butthurt over shit that doesn't affect them or have anything to do with the thread.

It's very unwise to believe your opinion is more important than others...Telling people to "shut the F up" because you don't agree  with their opinion really is immature.  Your language is appalling and distracts from any bit of  professionalism this board had...I think you were better off just staying away from the forums if they effect you this negatively. 

You're not an artist and really don't have a dog in this race... maybe get a hobby?

Mary wrote:
....... a Professional is someone that shows up on time, when and where they are supposed to be... With the tools they need.... A professional is someone that never speaks poorly of their fellow artists skills in public....A professional is a strong team player who lifts those around them up and tries to make everyone the best they can be at whatever they do.

I hope these lines echoed.

Mike Kelcher wrote:
... many people call themselves "makeup artists". Some people who refer to themselves as "makeup artists" actually make money applying makeup and therefore fall into the very broad category of "professional makeup artists". A "professional" is simply someone who makes money doing something.

Makeup artists are a dime a dozen. Most don't deserve the word "artist" as an adjective describing what they do. In my humble opinion, most are merely "makeup application technicians"....which means "people who apply makeup". A true makeup "artist", applies makeup in a manner where a person's face is like a "canvas" that they apply makeup to in a manner that could only be considered "art". True makeup "artists" are rare, but once you've worked with one, and have enjoyed editing the resulting images, it's not hard to see that some of these people truly deserve to be called "artists" and the quality of their work is top notch.
Just as some professional photographers are better than others, and just as some professional models are better than others, MUA's differ in experience and quality...and...some are better than others. Like all artists, our work speaks for itself and it's either "art" or it's not.

With regard to the posted images, I'm not impressed by the work of the model or the makeup person. Models that deserve a magazine cover work hard on their appearance, they eat right, they sleep, they moisturize, they drink lots of water, and do a lot of things right in order to manage their appearance. MUA's that deserve covers find a way to minimize "flaws" in facial tonality, texture, and structure while maximizing the beauty of the model. A good photographer sees this beauty, lights, poses and photographs it in a manner that results in an image filled with artistic beauty, which is further enhanced by retouching. If everyone involved did a great job, the results will be awesome, but like a chain, the weakest link is where the problems lie. A true "artist" of any sort, produces results that can only be called "art"...the rest is like oats that have already gone through a horse.

You are so right. Totally agree with your statements.

Mary wrote:
It's very unwise to believe your opinion is more important than others...Telling people to "shut the F up" because you don't agree  with their opinion really is immature.  Your language is appalling and distracts from any bit of  professionalism this board had...I think you were better off just staying away from the forums if they effect you this negatively. 

You're not an artist and really don't have a dog in this race... maybe get a hobby?

^^^^ my thoughts exactly!




But to answer the original question (etiquette etc aside) personally I find the makeup appalling, in my eyes a PRO makeup artist would stay on set until the very end to make sure fall down  (like in the photo) doesn't happen and so the makeup stays 'fresh' looking throughout.
The makeup looks like it has deteriorated over time and under bright, hot lights. If the MUA had left the set then I find that unprofessional but also if the MUA was on set throughout and hadn't cleaned this up then I also find that unprofessional!   

And to the people saying this was 'only a test shoot' I find that outrageous!!! Surely any professional, whether that be a photographer, MUA, stylist or model should use theirs skills to the best of their ability whether they are on a paid shoot or a test shoot!?

Mike Kelcher wrote:
Two things.

1. The OP has been accused of all sorts of wrong-doing, yet probably did no harm unless somebody knows who the photographer, llama, or MUA is. Without that knowledge, there's no harm done to anyone.

2. To answer the OP's question.... many people call themselves "makeup artists". Some people who refer to themselves as "makeup artists" actually make money applying makeup and therefore fall into the very broad category of "professional makeup artists". A "professional" is simply someone who makes money doing something.

Makeup artists are a dime a dozen. Most don't deserve the word "artist" as an adjective describing what they do. In my humble opinion, most are merely "makeup application technicians"....which means "people who apply makeup". A true makeup "artist", applies makeup in a manner where a person's face is like a "canvas" that they apply makeup to in a manner that could only be considered "art". True makeup "artists" are rare, but once you've worked with one, and have enjoyed editing the resulting images, it's not hard to see that some of these people truly deserve to be called "artists" and the quality of their work is top notch. The OP mentioned some names of some famous MUA's, and while fame is great, there are others whose work is also top notch but they lack the desire or never had the opportunity to obtain fame.

Just as some professional photographers are better than others, and just as some professional llamas are better than others, MUA's differ in experience and quality...and...some are better than others. Like all artists, our work speaks for itself and it's either "art" or it's not.

With regard to the posted images, I'm not impressed by the work of the llama or the makeup person. llamas that deserve a magazine cover work hard on their appearance, they eat right, they sleep, they moisturize, they drink lots of water, and do a lot of things right in order to manage their appearance. MUA's that deserve covers find a way to minimize "flaws" in facial tonality, texture, and structure while maximizing the beauty of the llama. A good photographer sees this beauty, lights, poses and photographs it in a manner that results in an image filled with artistic beauty, which is further enhanced by retouching. If everyone involved did a great job, the results will be awesome, but like a chain, the weakest link is where the problems lie. A true "artist" of any sort, produces results that can only be called "art"...the rest is like oats that have already gone through a horse.

This!  1

Lea Halliwell wrote:
Seriously? The op asked a question. Those of you bashing him/her need to shut the fuck up or answer the question.
He/she didn't ask anything about the photography, only the makeup. Its not your places to judge his/her motive or professionalism. For all you know, he/she has permission to post it!

This shit is exactly why I left the forums. People get stupid & butthurt over shit that doesn't affect them or have anything to do with the thread.

If they wanted a makeup critic , go to the critic section
and btw , grow up .....................

The AR project wrote:
Posing the question without the images would have been in better taste.  I'm not sure if you were going for the shock value.  Perhaps the feedback could have been more constructive.  maybe

Asking for critique/feedback on work that is not your own or one you have been hired to work on mirrors poor work ethics and questionable character.  Leaving us with the an example of "What NOT TO DO as a professional"?

This is just one to grow on!

0.02

exactly , Thank you

Makeup by Dani B wrote:
Oh my. Oh dear.

In the world where people actually get paid regularly to do this and live off what they make, where people don't gossip/swear/belittle/degrade others' work at work or in professional arenas, where artists of all kinds support each other....this sort of thing just doesn't exist.

2 decades in, I've seen it over and over. Those who do not do the above I have perhaps met or worked with once...then never seen or heard of again.

Being nice, having a sense of humor, being adaptable, being humble...trump creativity and skills every time. You may not think it's right or fair, it's just the way it is.

Going the extra mile doesn't hurt either. Like going out of your way to do makeup for a shoot on short notice, even if it's inconvenient. People remember other people who do things like that.

UK_Makeup_Artist wrote:
To every artist who has offered a critique of the "mistakes" in those photos, I say shame on you.

How would you feel if you stumbled upon a thread bashing your work? The retoucher wasnt there, he doesnt know the artist and had no right to post those pictures.

I know the relationships professional photographers build with retouchers and without permission they absolutely CANNOT show before/after shots. There must be a written agreement in place so to the OP I say, "I seriously hope you have a written agreement to show the unretouched images because they are not yours to post..." Little thing called copyright and all.

I am not even going to answer the question of professional/unprofessional because that is a smoke screen for the OP's original intent which was to get everyone squabbling. Troll.

Exactly.   Bravo!

UK_Makeup_Artist wrote:
To every artist who has offered a critique of the "mistakes" in those photos, I say shame on you.

How would you feel if you stumbled upon a thread bashing your work? The retoucher wasnt there, he doesnt know the artist and had no right to post those pictures.

I know the relationships professional photographers build with retouchers and without permission they absolutely CANNOT show before/after shots. There must be a written agreement in place so to the OP I say, "I seriously hope you have a written agreement to show the unretouched images because they are not yours to post..." Little thing called copyright and all.

I am not even going to answer the question of professional/unprofessional because that is a smoke screen for the OP's original intent which was to get everyone squabbling. Troll.

yep.... You called it.  I have no problem critiquing someones work if they ask for it.. Or if they are doing Vogue or some other high profile job (that's fair game IMO)  You want celeb status you take the knocks with it... But this is just a shot sent to a re-toucher  and in my opinion that's a relationship like doctor/patient...it's sacred

UK_Makeup_Artist wrote:
To every artist who has offered a critique of the "mistakes" in those photos, I say shame on you.

How would you feel if you stumbled upon a thread bashing your work? The retoucher wasnt there, he doesnt know the artist and had no right to post those pictures.

I know the relationships professional photographers build with retouchers and without permission they absolutely CANNOT show before/after shots. There must be a written agreement in place so to the OP I say, "I seriously hope you have a written agreement to show the unretouched images because they are not yours to post..." Little thing called copyright and all.

I am not even going to answer the question of professional/unprofessional because that is a smoke screen for the OP's original intent which was to get everyone squabbling. Troll.

BINGO!!!

Lisa Mae Russell wrote:
I know that I'm kind of just getting into all of this, but I think people are being a little too touchy. It's equally as much his work as the photographer, llama, and MUA. I think that if one person produces poor work, it effects the entire project, so Zorka is well within his right to both be irritated and ask for opinion.
I also think he avoided 'unprofessional' by doing the following things:
He didn't give any names, which is huge.
He didn't offer the entire photo, just some close-ups of what he was having issues with.
He just asked a simple question.
Having said all of that, in my personal opinion, and having only done makeup a handful of times on other llamas, these photos are barely distinguishable from some girl at the mall who had 20 minutes to get ready or her friends were leaving without her.
I understand your frustration, Zorka.

Um, call me crazy but wouldn't it only be his work if he showed the retouched images?

Mary wrote:
yep.... You called it.  I have no problem critiquing someones work if they ask for it.. Or if they are doing Vogue or some other high profile job (that's fair game IMO)  You want celeb status you take the knocks with it... But this is just a shot sent to a re-toucher  and in my opinion that's a relationship like doctor/patient...it's sacred

EXACTLY Mary. I cant believe so many other artists were so quick to jump on another makeup artist who isnt even here to defend their choices. He/She could have had 5 minutes, on set under the lights to change a look...we have no idea. The photographer could have said "dont waste time, ill get them to fix it in post" How many times have we all heard that when time is running out?! Shocking.