Patrick Walberg wrote:

Wynne didn't not say that she didn't like Brennan's answer, she only clarified what Brennan did not know about Wynne's situation.  No one here claims to have all the answers, as that is just plain silliness on the part of anyone starting this catfight.   

There are photographers including myself who would pay her.  There are photographers who she might agree to TF with.  There are NO SET RULES!!!!!   All she asked for were some examples of reasonable rates, and many of us have given her those examples.


Really now???  What is ANY photographer supposed to pay for of a model???  So I guess you think a 17 year old should be required to model TFP until they are 18 or something???

Wynne has already had photographers in her location pay her to model.  Your snide little statement of "What are they supposed to pay you for" does not go over well with me in regards to how to treat newbies on the forum.  This is not the play ground where people can egg someone on or bully others.  (at least under my watch)  No, I'm not a Nigerian scammer here, but I will call it like I see it.  The OP is a 17 year old who is new to modeling.  You are the adult here.  Act like one!

That's precisely what I said Patrick, white knight away and tell me how to behave all you want 

Laura UnBound wrote:

That's precisely what I said Patrick, white knight away and tell me how to behave all you want 

I'm am far from being a "white knight" or any other label you care to use ... and you know that!    I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you meant.  Perhaps I needed my referee shirt on for the tiff between Brennan and Wynne instead?  Doesn't matter, as the OP got her answers from enough people here by now.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

I'm am far from being a "white knight" or any other label you care to use ... and you know that!    I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you meant.  Perhaps I needed my referee shirt on for the tiff between Brennan and Wynne instead?  Doesn't matter, as the OP got her answers from enough people here by now.

Maybe you don't need to play at being a moderator or "referee" for anyone? No wait...that's silly.  17 year olds who want to start doing business like an adult with adults certainly can't talk with the adults without your supervision.

"I know that"? Patrick I've called you a white knight like a bajillion times. "I call it like I see it"

Laura UnBound wrote:
To be clear, my question of what she's supposed to be getting paid for wasnt snide, its an honest to god question that any model looking to seriously charge for her services needs to ask herself and be incredibly honest and humble when answering. You don't get paid to just simply exist, you don't get paid just because you ask for it, so you need to assess what exactly it is you're bringing to the table that's worth anyone's money


Models get paid for having the right look, stats, etc
Models get paid for having certain skills others don't
Models get paid for their experience in modeling, reputation, etc and instilling confidence in someone that they are more "worth it" than a newbie
Models get paid when they have solid portfolios, good references, and obvious understanding of their business.

What does she bring to the table in any of those categories and how much is their contribution actually worth to the people buying it?  What is modeling worth to her? do the numbers match? That's something she needs to assess. She could easily set her own rates if she answered those questions for herself. "Reasonable" is only reasonable in your own head. I might think 400/hour is reasonable, that doesn't make it so.

I agree with you 100% on all that you've just said.  Those are all questions she should consider asking herself when thinking about what to ask for modeling.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.  We are on the same page on this.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Maybe you don't need to play at being a moderator or "referee" for anyone? No wait...that's silly.  17 year olds who want to start doing business like an adult with adults certainly can't talk with the adults without your supervision.

"I know that"? Patrick I've called you a white knight like a bajillion times. "I call it like I see it"

Laura, I have no name for you.  I don't believe in using names or labels as it deflects from the message that is written at the least, and dehumanizes people at worse.  So whatever you believe a "white knight" to be, then so be it.  I've been called worse.

The reason I'm writing what I have written on here is because I am "friends" with Wynne, and have communicated with her by messages in private.   She has posted previously in the forums, and quite often people don't answer her questions directly.  Many have underhandedly trolled or attacked her in the past.  In the past, right now, and as always, I give my honest opinion. 

In this thread, Brennan questioned the validity of whomever Wynne is working with, and I can understand wanting to know, but then Brennan did make some presumptions first.  Perhaps you think I was a bit preemptive in jumping in the middle of it, but too late now.   I stand by all I've said.  Wynne wanted to know what some "reasonable rates" were and she got her answers.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Laura UnBound wrote:
Brennan already gave you your answer for that, you just didnt like it.


TF.

Wynne didn't not say that she didn't like Brennan's answer, she only clarified what Brennan did not know about Wynne's situation.  No one here claims to have all the answers, as that is just plain silliness on the part of anyone starting this catfight.   

There are photographers including myself who would pay her.  There are photographers who she might agree to TF with.  There are NO SET RULES!!!!!   All she asked for were some examples of reasonable rates, and many of us have given her those examples.


Really now???  What is ANY photographer supposed to pay for of a model???  So I guess you think a 17 year old should be required to model TFP until they are 18 or something???

Wynne has already had photographers in her location pay her to model.  Your snide little statement of "What are they supposed to pay you for" does not go over well with me in regards to how to treat newbies on the forum.  This is not the play ground where people can egg someone on or bully others.  (at least under my watch)  No, I'm not a moderator here, but I will call it like I see it.  The OP is a 17 year old who is new to modeling.  You are the adult here.  Act like one!

Thank you very much! My thoughts exactly. You've been very helpful in your responses.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Wynne, the average model doing editorial fashion for a magazine makes around $25.00 per hour.   Clothed fashion work doesn't pay well unless its catalog or commercial work.   Ask your agency and on that note.   If you are being represented then they should  be arranging work.   That includes tests.   I did look at their website.   You might do better on your own on second thought.   So what's fair to ask for?   That's very hard to say because you are very limited in what you can shoot.   I would start by finding out how and where the images  will be used.   Will a MUA do your face or hair.   Will clothing be provided.   How long is the shoot expected too last.   How far will you have to travel or is the photographer coming to you.   

Several people have thrown around some in my view unrealistic numbers.   However, frankly I'd focus a bit more on adding more variety to my portfolio if I were you.   In any event any wise photographer should be negotiating with your parents and not you.   Sadly many of the photographers you should work with who can improve your book won't pay you.   My feeling is most of the amateurs who would be willing to pay will move on to another model for more then $25.00 to $30.00 per hour.   Good luck!

That logic doesn't really work.

Girls don't do magazine work for the money. They do it for the tearsheets and the money just evens things out a little.

I charge more for fashion than I make getting booked for more magazines, and I honestly don't know of anyone (personally) that does otherwise.

Wynne Turner wrote:

Thank you very much! My thoughts exactly. You've been very helpful in your responses.

Wynne, when looking at the rates posted, also keep in mind that "experienced" is subjective.

The higher rates I posted for the categories you mentioned would be girls with routine published work and a full book. A "full book" is sometimes only 15 pictures, but it's which pictures.

What is considered experienced in Portland will not be considered experienced everywhere. I'm only saying this because you are going to be traveling.

So, it may be beneficial to ask girls what to charge when you come to their area.

Being one of the more experienced girls in your market may mean you can actually charge MORE there than when you go someplace bigger.

None of this is said with consideration to your work, these are all general statements and I'm trying to be a little more specific. I used to live in Tulsa, OK, and I was considered a very experienced model. And I was! For Tulsa. But when I moved to LA, I was considered a model with "some experience."

I hope this is making sense.

Wynne Turner wrote:

Great! I bet you know everything now as well. Isn't that right? Sure as hell seems like it, wow!

And also just throwing this out there, but do you know anything about the agency I'm with? No. Have you ever talked to my manager? No. Have you ever gotten booked for paid jobs through them? Hmm oh yeah... No! All I was trying to do was inform you of what my agency has done for me and the other models they represent. I guess that's "wrong" though; I suppose I've just been dreaming up everything that's happened so far.

Lastly, you can leave this forum thread now. You have not provided me with any useful information in response to my original question, which for the record was not intended to lead into any immature cat fight about who knows more. You are also not providing me with any helpful answers to my question in a rather unpleasant manner, and I would not like to partake in this conservation further.

She knows a lot because she is an experienced model!

Patrick Walberg wrote:

But Joel, did you catch the previous ones??

Like this one; B R E N N A N wrote:
Ah, I miss being 17 and knowing everything.

Honest and truthful!

B R E N N A N wrote:
This is going to come across as harsher than I intend it to, so I apologize in advance...

Rates for a 17 year old non-agency standard model with little experience in Portland?
TF.

Awww!  So this is your first post on this thread.  This is what started the slight disagreement.  You are not being harsh, you are being presumptive.  Since you know so little about Wynne, it's understandable.  It's interesting to me that out of all the responses she got on the first page, you are the only one who suggested that TF would be the best she could do.  You did not know that she has already been paid by some photographers, and has some sort of management. 

Certainly I am in favor of doing TFP for many reasons that have little to do with a models or photographers experience level, but more to do with mutual benefit.  Wynne mentioned rates for work that would not necessarily benefit her, as she is working already.  She has gotten her answers, but what you had to say was not terribly positive, now was it? 

I hope you get to feeling more positive soon!  Best wishes to you! 

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Honest and truthful!

Hey Jerry!  Honest, sure.  Truthful, well maybe ... maybe not, because not all 17 year olds believe or act like they know everything.  In her original post, Wynne's question was straight forward.  Things in this thread started to deteriorate when Brennan told Wynne that "TF" was her answer then challenged Wynne regarding her management.  Who knows?  There very well could be a whole other thread regarding her "management" situation, BUT that was not what the OP posted about.  So it went just a bit off topic then.  I know where it started though ... from the "TF" remark.   I think Kelli Kickham is doing an excellent job as a moderator here and in posting through out this thread! 

Great advise starting on page one by Kelli, along with Looknsee Photography!   

B R E N N A N wrote:
I can't really opine as to what images would or would not benefit the OP without venturing into unsolicited critique area.

Thank God you didn't do that!  I hate to see people go to the brig for stupid mistakes!

Really, I am not a mean person, and I'm sorry I've ridden your ass on this thread.  Also I can appreciate that you are trying to help her.  The fact is that Wynne asked about rates, and you went straight to "TF's" which is something she has already been doing, along with paid work.  Her's was a curious teenaged model question.  No, she does not have "agency standard" stats, but did you notice the responses previous to your post?  You were the only one who suggested she go back to square one doing TF.  She didn't need to be told to do TF, she is already doing it.

When it comes to TF, I do quite a lot of it!  I have done TF with models of the experience level of you or Kelli Kickham here ... then I have also paid models of yours and Kelli's level $100 an hour too!  Someone called me a cheapskate because I wouldn't pay her $150 an hour.  I have my limits as everyone does here, and I am fairly negotiable too.  It doesn't have to be a put down.

Scoria wrote:
I haven't charged yet, but in my opinion, I think the rates should change in consideration of the time. If it takes me half an hour to get to a shoot and it's just one hour, I'll charge a higher hourly rate than if it took me half an hour to get to the shoot and it were a five hour shoot.

I'd take into consideration gas money spent, any money spent on wardrobe or MUA/hairstylists and what type of shoot it is. If it's a style I'm interested in, I'm bound to do a better job than one I'm not interested in (not intentionally, I just think that's how people work) so I'd charge more for shoots I know I'll do better in.

Then again, I might want to charge more for a shoot I don't want to do, simply because I don't want to do it. I guess circumstances change it in every situation, is what I'm saying... so go with what you feel is right. Figure out how much you should charge to "break even" with your expenses, then add what you feel is reasonable so you get some profit.

I was literally shaking my head as I read this.  I guess if you're not making money, you could have this attitude, as long as you don't care if you continue not to make money. 

I say this with the intent of brotherly love, if you want to improve and make money, make every shoot your best.  If you can't find interest in what you do, maybe this isn't for you.  I really wish every model though was as honest as you on their profile page.

K I C K H A M wrote:

That logic doesn't really work.

Girls don't do magazine work for the money. They do it for the tearsheets and the money just evens things out a little.

I charge more for fashion than I make getting booked for more magazines, and I honestly don't know of anyone (personally) that does otherwise.

I provided the numbers as a ideal of what models make.   According to the DOL the average model makes under $20,00 per hour.   Their figures not mine.   The OP has asked what is a reasonable rate.   I also pointed out that clothed fashion usually doesn't pay well unless its catalog or commercial work.   I don't know of many models on MM who make a lot doing clothing only work.   Present company excluded of course.   Based on what I am hearing for a model like her reasonable might start at $25.00 to $30.00 per hour.    Much more and as I said those who might want too shoot her and those who might want to shoot her might move on to another model.   I'm also aware why models accept low rates for tear sheets as I know some actual models who have been in Elle and Vogue.

As for what other models make for doing the kind of clothed work the OP is describing I have paid $25.00 a hour to a few models with BMG and Elite.   I'm certainly not shooting for publication.    The OP asked what's reasonable.   Models like you with a extensive book and experience...then that number changes.   In my opinion rather then focus on payment at all the OP might consider adding to her portfolio.   I gather she's speaking about charging those who she feels can't add to it based on their work.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Thank God you didn't do that!  I hate to see people go to the brig for stupid mistakes!

Really, I am not a mean person, and I'm sorry I've ridden your ass on this thread.  Also I can appreciate that you are trying to help her.  The fact is that Wynne asked about rates, and you went straight to "TF's" which is something she has already been doing, along with paid work.  Her's was a curious teenaged model question.  No, she does not have "agency standard" stats, but did you notice the responses previous to your post?  You were the only one who suggested she go back to square one doing TF.  She didn't need to be told to do TF, she is already doing it.

...don't care...irrelevant...

Patrick, I don't care if you ride my ass, or white knight, or highjack this thread; you're not doing her any favors by continuing to do so.

I was one of the initial people to suggest she tf because:
a) I can see her portfolio
b) I'm one of the few - if not the only- model in this thread who is familiar with the Portland market and has worked it extensively as a freelance  model.

The OP didn't mention someone had offered to pay her (assuming that actually happened, since it would have been relevant to her first post), but it doesn't matter; I still stand by my answer that for someone of her experience level in the Portland market, she shouldn't be charging anything.

keros wrote:
Seems so simple....If the photos are not used for advertising and/or the photographer is not making money from them. Why would he/she pay a model?  If someone wants me to pay them, I take it as they really don't appreciate my work and move on. I also think anyone willing to pay a young model might want to reevaluate their intentions. It's just plain creepy. If I'm getting paid, you're getting paid. If I'm not, you should be grateful someones taking the time and effort to try and make a great image for you. There's too many unhappily married men on here with cameras. For us who are actually trying to make a living doing this... it just doesn't make sense.

I'm here to find new faces and hopefully take them with me, when I'm doing a paid job. It happens . I know and have shot models that were once cover girls on Vogue and Elle and they shoot for trade all the time. Wake up. Let's be real... our gear cost thousands of dollars, plus insurance, advertising and many other post cost.
This should be a place to collaborate and try new things out, with mutual benefits to both Model and Photographer. Girls and Guys book REAL jobs all the time off the portfolios they have built from this site. That's payment.

Why is it creepy to pay someone to get started, if they have experience / skills you need.  Some photographers also don't want the obligations of a trade, feeling that their own time is worth more than the model's compensation.  For, say, a successful attorney, to pay a model $100 for a four hour shoot might make a lot more sense than making sure she gets 10 or so nicely retouched images.

keros wrote:
Seems so simple....If the photos are not used for advertising and/or the photographer is not making money from them. Why would he/she pay a model?  If someone wants me to pay them, I take it as they really don't appreciate my work and move on. I also think anyone willing to pay a young model might want to reevaluate their intentions. It's just plain creepy. If I'm getting paid, you're getting paid. If I'm not, you should be grateful someones taking the time and effort to try and make a great image for you. There's too many unhappily married men on here with cameras. For us who are actually trying to make a living doing this... it just doesn't make sense.

I'm here to find new faces and hopefully take them with me, when I'm doing a paid job. It happens . I know and have shot models that were once cover girls on Vogue and Elle and they shoot for trade all the time. Wake up. Let's be real... our gear cost thousands of dollars, plus insurance, advertising and many other post cost.
This should be a place to collaborate and try new things out, with mutual benefits to both Model and Photographer. Girls and Guys book REAL jobs all the time off the portfolios they have built from this site. That's payment.

Fine artists have been hiring models for generations before cameras were invented.
For many photographers they simply continue the tradition of hiring talent to achieve their goals. (art, practice, hobby,)

The third party client based commercial/editorial aspect of photography is only a VERY small part of photographer/model economy.

B R E N N A N wrote:
Patrick, I don't care if you ride my ass, or white knight, or highjack this thread; you're not doing her any favors by continuing to do so.

I was one of the initial people to suggest she tf because:
a) I can see her portfolio
b) I'm one of the few - if not the only- model in this thread who is familiar with the Portland market and has worked it extensively as a freelance  model.

The OP didn't mention someone had offered to pay her (assuming that actually happened, since it would have been relevant to her first post), but it doesn't matter; I still stand by my answer that for someone of her experience level in the Portland market, she shouldn't be charging anything.

Brennan, my point is that she did not ask what "she" should charge.  She did not ask for a critique of her portfolio for one to base an answer to a question she didn't even ask.  She didn't ask for an opinion as to if she should continue to "TF" at all.  Here is her original post to remind you;

Wynne Turner wrote:
I want to know some examples of your reasonable rates you charge for a paid shoot that does NOT benefit you, the photographer just keeps the photos. And for a model with experience. What are reasonable hourly rates for:

1. Fashion/Lifestyle Clothing
2. Fitness
3. Swimwear/Bikini

And do you think it's good to have a 2 hour minimum?

.

Now that is a direct and clear original post if I ever saw one!  Brennan, you are a great model, with loads of experience.  I do appreciate you being a member here very much!  However, you were the one who hijacked the thread first. 

The original post is a fairly common question from new models who are perhaps getting paid offers for the first time.  We ALL have to start some place.  I would say that nearly everyone of us has done "TF" early on, and then at some point, some of us will charge for our services.  To tell a model to continue to "TF" is not helpful.  You could give more insight as to how you went from a beginner to charging what you do now?

Back to the OP.   I've stated my opinion that "reasonable rates" to me would be in the $25 to $75 an hour range with a 2 hour minimum.

Death of Field wrote:
Fine artists have been hiring models for generations before cameras were invented.
For many photographers they simply continue the tradition of hiring talent to achieve their goals. (art, practice, hobby,)

The third party client based commercial/editorial aspect of photography is only a VERY small part of photographer/model economy.

Thank you for posting your response to Keros post!  It is NOT so simple as "everyone gets paid" as many photographers do hire models for work with no intention of making money, and there are models who hire photographers too.  The third party "client" has become even less a frequent aspect of the photography economy since the advent of digital cameras.  Many people are self publishing online now. 

The valid point made is that many people on this website are working on a trade basis regardless of their experience level.  The OP model, Wynne has already done some modeling TF, and her question was not about herself.  At least it seems to me that her question was to get a general idea of what models are charging.  Anyone saying that she is not worthy of charging is wrong.

ontherocks wrote:
one thing about Portland is we have a lot of traveling models (carlotta champagne for one) cruising through (and some based here as well like my friend miss redrose). so for a photographer with funds there are some very experienced models (many who will do nudes) available to choose from.

my last trade shoot was with a model from Idaho who went over to the oregon coast on a trip.

so plenty of traveling models floating around, in addition to the locals. just depends on how photographers will view you as part of that mix.

back when i started here four years ago the traveling models were often in the $75-$125/hour range, usually with a half-day discount and a two-hour minimum. the last model i hired was $75/hour (a very experienced nude glamour model i hired for a workshop who was traveling through) but that was a while ago.

The dollar amounts have been all over the place!      I think that $75-$125/hour range is something for young/starting models to aspire to, but not always reached right away.  Someone mentioned potentially paying $10 an hour, and I'm sure there are some who would shoot for that amount.  But I wont go over the $100 an hour mark unless it's someone rather extraordinary.  There are plenty of great models on this site within the $25 to $75 an hour range ... and some for the $100 an hour range too!  This is a negotiable subject depending on more than just ones experience level.

Fred Gerhart wrote:
For the OP... I suggest you simply consider your cost of doing business (COB) annually and then work from that point forward to establish your rate. Some things to consider when calculating your COB are: gym membership, clothing and accessories, makeup, and so on.

Once you have the COB then divide by the number of hours you think you will work in a year. That will then become a starting hourly rate. Now add in what you think is a fair wage and that will become your final hourly rate. Can you book at that rate? Maybe and maybe not as there is a ton of competition out there. If you want top rates you are going to have to set yourself apart from the rest of the pack and must have "the look". Some models such a Valerie Whitaker have "the look". A photographer simply cannot take a bad photography of Valerie. But in addition to being a top model she is also an expert at hair, makeup, wardrobe, and free posing. She also takes direction very well. Those abilities along with her look determine her rates.

Begin by always bringing your A Game to every shoot and always treat every shoot equally important. When you finish a shoot do a self assessment and ask how can I do better next time out? Then make the needed changes and repeat...

A top model also has a killer head shot as the first photograph in their portfolio as well as their Avatar. Us photographers begin our assessment of a models abilities  by first checking the models profile information and then the head shot. We then assess the remainder of the portfolio to determine if we think the model will meet our needs.

Items in a profile that lower the amount of money photographers are willing to pay are " I always bring an escort" or "I Don't Shoot Nudes" or "I am managed by so and so..".   

When hiring I may not be shooting anything that requires nudity but I want that option available  if the moment arrives and I understand the adjustment in compensation to the model is required.

If I see any of those things I mentioned above in either the profile or portfolio then I offer a trade shoot instead of compensation.

Good Luck

I appreciate your advice; it was helpful. As for the things I have written on my profile, it is important that I include those. I am 17, so doing any type of nude work would be illegal, and I also must bring an escort on all shoots because of my age and for safety reasons. I wrote that I do not do any nude work on my profile because in addition to it being illegal for me, I was also getting too many offers for lingerie and nude shoots before I posted that, which is inappropriate. When I'm 18, I will no longer always bring an escort so some of those things I have written on my profile will be changed or deleted.

B R E N N A N wrote:

Patrick, I don't care if you ride my ass, or white knight, or highjack this thread; you're not doing her any favors by continuing to do so.

I was one of the initial people to suggest she tf because:
a) I can see her portfolio
b) I'm one of the few - if not the only- model in this thread who is familiar with the Portland market and has worked it extensively as a freelance  model.

The OP didn't mention someone had offered to pay her (assuming that actually happened, since it would have been relevant to her first post), but it doesn't matter; I still stand by my answer that for someone of her experience level in the Portland market, she shouldn't be charging anything.

Like Patrick has said, my original question was not asking for opinions of what I, personally, should charge. I posted the question because I wanted to read some examples of what other models charge (which I thought was very straightforward), so then I could look at their portfolios, experience levels, locations etc... so I could have a little reference and then figure out *on my own* what my rates should be (if I were to even set standard hourly rates). I also didn't ask for an opinion of my portfolio, or to be told that I'm not good enough to get paid at all. Patrick seems to be getting me completely here, and I appreciate that. And Brennan, just so you know, I have a paid shoot booked for next weekend.

Miroslava Svoboda wrote:
I don't really go by reasonable or at least I was told that my rate is unreasonable. I go by what makes financial sense, as in what doesn't put me in a minus or just breaks me even. What is the point in that? I'd rather stay home.

So you're not what you would call an enthusiast because you would rather stay home? Personally I shoot for fun all the time without financial incentive.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Laura UnBound wrote:
Brennan already gave you your answer for that, you just didnt like it.


TF.

Wynne didn't not say that she didn't like Brennan's answer, she only clarified what Brennan did not know about Wynne's situation.  No one here claims to have all the answers, as that is just plain silliness on the part of anyone starting this catfight.   

There are photographers including myself who would pay her.  There are photographers who she might agree to TF with.  There are NO SET RULES!!!!!   All she asked for were some examples of reasonable rates, and many of us have given her those examples.


Really now???  What is ANY photographer supposed to pay for of a model???  So I guess you think a 17 year old should be required to model TFP until they are 18 or something???

Wynne has already had photographers in her location pay her to model.  Your snide little statement of "What are they supposed to pay you for" does not go over well with me in regards to how to treat newbies on the forum.  This is not the play ground where people can egg someone on or bully others.  (at least under my watch)  No, I'm not a moderator here, but I will call it like I see it.  The OP is a 17 year old who is new to modeling.  You are the adult here.  Act like one!

I agree with that. She's been rather abrupt with me from time to time.

Wynne Turner wrote:

Like Patrick has said, my original question was not asking for opinions of what I, personally, should charge. I posted the question because I wanted to read some examples of what other models charge (which I thought was very straightforward), so then I could look at their portfolios, experience levels, locations etc... so I could have a little reference and then figure out *on my own* what my rates should be (if I were to even set standard hourly rates). I also didn't ask for an opinion of my portfolio, or to be told that I'm not good enough to get paid at all. Patrick seems to be getting me completely here, and I appreciate that. And Brennan, just so you know, I have a paid shoot booked for next weekend.

Wynne, there are too many variables to actually look at for anyone to determine rates.   You could look at local models and see but models like Laura and Brennan have fantastic books and they are going to look at your book and give you their thoughts based on its content.   Their rates are based on their experience.   Only you can really decide what's fair.   If you are working at Starbucks for $10.00 an hour  is $20.00 per hour too model fair.    Also you require a escort (that's a personal choice) So that persons time should be considered as well.  Start with how far you will have too drive.   Add in gas and food.  How long will the session last.   Is make-up hair and clothing included.   What is the planned use of the work.

No one can really tell you what's fair and their rates may be based on the fact that they do nudes or the kind of images that you don't.   Maybe they are taller and more agency standard models.   Maybe they don't require a parent to attend or a escort.   Maybe they have a more portfolio of solid well done fashion and glam styled images.   Decide on what you feel is reasonable and if you are always busy go up on that rate.   If work is slow then consider lowering it.     Contact local models to see if they will tell you what they make.   Look at what they show in their profile and if they do nudes or not.

Jim McSmith wrote:

I agree with that. She's been rather abrupt with me from time to time.

Nope, I've never interacted with you in the forums. While I've lurked and laughed at the last 2 threads you've started, I have not chimed in or interacted with you at all (I even did a Sendu check to be sure).

Wynne Turner wrote:
Like Patrick has said, my original question was not asking for opinions of what I, personally, should charge. I posted the question because I wanted to read some examples of what other models charge (which I thought was very straightforward), so then I could look at their portfolios, experience levels, locations etc... so I could have a little reference and then figure out *on my own* what my rates should be (if I were to even set standard hourly rates). I also didn't ask for an opinion of my portfolio, or to be told that I'm not good enough to get paid at all. Patrick seems to be getting me completely here, and I appreciate that. And Brennan, just so you know, I have a paid shoot booked for next weekend.

And that is awesome! Good for you!!!!

As far as you asking what one should charge, not specifically related to your portfolio, again, I reiterate:
One who does not (or cannot and should not at 17) shoot nudes, Without agency stats, who has little to no experience, lives in Portland, and requires an escort due to her age should be doing tf. That person's (be it you or another model) reasonable rate is tf. The end.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
...doesn't matter...

Back to the OP.   I've stated my opinion that "reasonable rates" to me would be in the $25 to $75 an hour range with a 2 hour minimum.

Patrick, you are aware it is difficult for a pro, full time, internationally published model with thousands of shots under her belt to net $75 per hour in the Portland region (and I am not specifically referring to me)? If the OP were to quote $75 per hour, or even $50 per hour in her market, she would be laughed at and would never work again. Do you realize what a disservice you're doing her by quoting rates for a market which with you're unfamiliar?

Wynne Turner wrote:
Like Patrick has said, my original question was not asking for opinions of what I, personally, should charge. I posted the question because I wanted to read some examples of what other models charge (which I thought was very straightforward), so then I could look at their portfolios, experience levels, locations etc... so I could have a little reference and then figure out *on my own* what my rates should be (if I were to even set standard hourly rates). I also didn't ask for an opinion of my portfolio, or to be told that I'm not good enough to get paid at all. Patrick seems to be getting me completely here, and I appreciate that.

You DO realize why that is, yes?  ^^^^

My suggestion, if that was your original question, maybe you could go back and edit your original post to make it more clear that you do want to know what others are charging, and no discussion of what you should charge.

If only 80% of people really understood what you were asking for, perhaps the problem is in the way the question was presented, not with the people reading it/responding to it.

Wynne, I think many people have been trying to be helpful to you, but in the forums and on the site you are likely viewed as a newbie, and as such, it is easy to accidentally alienate people (who might hire you) so I'm sure you're aware how important it is with regards not only to what you say, but how you say it  (and if it comes across as humble or as cocky.)

DougBPhoto wrote:
...snip...

My suggestion, if that was your original question, maybe you could go back and edit your original post to make it more clear that you do want to know what others are charging, and no discussion of what you should charge.

If only 80% of people really understood what you were asking for, perhaps the problem is in the way the question was presented, not with the people reading it/responding to it.

Wynne, I think many people have been trying to be helpful to you, but in the forums and on the site you are likely viewed as a newbie, and as such, you can quickly alienate people (who might hire you) so I'm sure you're aware how important it is with regards not only to what you say, but how you say it.

I answered both what the OP should be charging and what anyone in her situation should charge; neither of my answers were well accepted.

Bree Addams wrote:

Patrick, you are aware it is difficult for a pro, full time, internationally published model with thousands of shots under her belt to net $75 per hour in the Portland region (and I am not specifically referring to me)? If the OP were to quote $75 per hour, or even $50 per hour in her market, she would be laughed at and would never work again. Do you realize what a disservice you're doing her by quoting rates for a market which with you're unfamiliar?

Ok, it's a fact that I know that you are a wonderful, experienced model who works full time at modeling and loves it.  I get it! 

What you are failing to get is that this is NOT about the Wynne!  How can I make this anymore clear to you?  She did NOT specifically ask about what she should charge, nor what the market is like for models in Portland, Oregon.  What you are saying about her misses the entire OP of hers!  You "made" it about her with your comments that were/are OFF TOPIC ... and I mean FAR OFF TOPIC!!  I posted her original post for you to see your mistake in taking this off topic, but you still don't get it?

Even if you want to continue to argue your point stating that she should do TF, you are doing a disservice to yourself!   The OP didn't ASK, but if you must know, she is going to be traveling, and she has already modeled for some paying jobs.  So you talking about the Portland market, and that she should continue to TF is completely irrelevant to her OP! 

PLEASE READ the posts from Kelli Kickham and Tony Lawrence in this thread!  What they have written is EXCELLENT!!!!

DougBPhoto wrote:
My suggestion, if that was your original question, maybe you could go back and edit your original post to make it more clear that you do want to know what others are charging, and no discussion of what you should charge.

If only 80% of people really understood what you were asking for, perhaps the problem is in the way the question was presented, not with the people reading it/responding to it.

Wynne, I think many people have been trying to be helpful to you, but in the forums and on the site you are likely viewed as a newbie, and as such, you can quickly alienate people (who might hire you) so I'm sure you're aware how important it is with regards not only to what you say, but how you say it  (and if it comes across as humble or as cocky.)

Doug, I think it's a little late now for her to edit her OP ... besides, I've reposted it, and I'll repost it right now;

Wynne Turner wrote:
I want to know some examples of your reasonable rates you charge for a paid shoot that does NOT benefit you, the photographer just keeps the photos. And for a model with experience. What are reasonable hourly rates for:

1. Fashion/Lifestyle Clothing
2. Fitness
3. Swimwear/Bikini

And do you think it's good to have a 2 hour minimum?

So what's so difficult to understand?  You know as well as I do that if 80% of the people who post in these forums understand the original post, then it's gotta be a well written post!  BECAUSE many people don't understand what is written, while many others don't write well enough either.  There is NO WAY that anyone can get 100% of the people to understand perfectly what they have written.  So for you to say that perhaps 80% understand the original post is a HUGE compliment to the writer! 

Not once has Wynne asked what she should be charging.  That would put her at risk of being critiqued, and that's for a different section of the forums.  She did not ask about any specific geographic market either.  She did ask about three specific types of modeling and if a 2 hour minimum was a good idea.   

You are correct about Wynne and her being a new model to the forums.  In her earliest threads, she did come across to many of us as cocky or sassy.  A 17 year old singer was sassy to Adam Levine on the Voice ... as saying "Why are you talking ... you didn't turn your chair for me!" then she went with Usher.  After that cockiness, she apologized to Adam about that.  It makes for good television though. 

But back to Wynne, I understand and work with a lot of youth.  When she first posted July of last year, I knew she was running through a minefield so to speak and became friends with her.  So in the past, we've written private messages to each other.   I've explained some of the things that she had questions about.  So I think Wynne is cool.

I like Brennan too!  She is a great model!  I've already stated some where that I would pay a model of Wynne's level and ability $25 to $50 IF she were traveling though the area.  I also stated that I would pay a model of Brennan's level and ability from $75 to $100 an hour.  Both with a 2 hour minimum. Those are FACTS from me as to what I would pay.  That number most likely will vary for each model and through negotiation. 

Why Brennan is stuck on making this about Wynne concerns me.  In the OP, the questions asked were about models own experiences.  I would LOVE to hear more from Brennan about what she charges, but that's beside the point.  The point being that she is stuck on ramming TF and the Portland, Oregon market down Wynne's throat.  Is it really that bad there?  I heard someone suggest $10 an hour.  Better than TF! 

Tony Lawrence is my buddy, and I admire Kelli Kickham greatly!  I'd shoot with Kelli in a heartbeat and pay whatever her rate is!   In this particular thread, the posts from Kelli and Tony have been right on!  Their posts are very informative to all models reading this thread.