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Photographer
Jim McSmith
Posts: 762
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom


Fawna Latrisch has recently published a book advising models how to conduct themselves within the modelling industry.

I haven't read the book, largely because I'm not a model, but it is interesting to know what preconceptions a model may have before working with them. One issue she raises in an article with respect to the payment of models, she advises that models should request payment up front before any film is in the can.

This may come across as sound advice to models but my feeling is, as one respondent to her article here on MM put it, a broad brush approach to paying models, making the assumption that all have the professional demeanour that she does.

While this may be good advice to individual models it completely ignores the photographer's perspective and I think this makes the book, at least where the payment advice is concerned, somewhat unidimensional. The reason being that most photographers wont want to pay up front until services have been delivered. This could, in my humble opinion, bring both parties to an impasse, giving the novice untried model the general idea she should be paid in advance without testing her capabilities to deliver the goods.

My advice to Fawna would be to revisit her book with a view to adding that missing second dimension, the perspective of the photographer to the model. This will give her target readership a more realistically informed perspective of the model-photographer relationship. Fawna may wish to consider publishing an amended second edition which would no doubt lend justice to her undoubted talents and expertise.

What are your thoughts on this issue my esteemed friends and colleagues?
Apr 05 13 07:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5,209
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


Well Jim, my first thought was; 'have you told Fawna all this?'
Apr 05 13 08:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 8,297
Olney, Maryland, US


Jim McSmith wrote:
I haven't read the book . . .

My advice to Fawna would be to revisit her book with a view to adding that missing second dimension, the perspective of the photographer to the model. This will give her target readership a more realistically informed perspective of the model-photographer relationship. Fawna may wish to consider publishing an amended second edition which would no doubt lend justice to her undoubted talents and expertise.

Still giving advice!!!

Apr 05 13 08:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,781
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Exactly how many jobs pay you before the work week starts?  More to the point it's not how the actualy industry works, as recent law suites from models against their agency point out.
Apr 05 13 08:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Edward
Posts: 2,462
Dallas, Texas, US


AJScalzitti wrote:
Exactly how many jobs pay you before the work week starts?  More to the point it's not how the actualy industry works, as recent law suites from models against their agency point out.

Well, there is one, where the ladies get payment upfront. As for Models, I pay at the end of the job. If the job ends early, the pay is prorated.

Apr 05 13 08:26 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Big A-Larger Than Life
Posts: 33,410
The Woodlands, Texas, US


John Edward wrote:
Well, there is one, where the ladies get payment upfront. As for llamas, I pay at the end of the job. If the job ends early, the pay is prorated.

You can put my hamburgers and milk into a business envelope.  cool

Apr 05 13 08:55 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,975
Austin, Texas, US


Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:

You can put my hamburgers and milk into a business envelope.  cool

I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today

Apr 05 13 08:58 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Big A-Larger Than Life
Posts: 33,410
The Woodlands, Texas, US


Damianne wrote:

I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today

With chz and extra ketchup?  big_smile

Apr 05 13 09:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,452
Salem, Oregon, US


the way i've seen it put is don't sign the model release until you have your money. normally i take care of all that at the beginning of the shoot. and so far no one has run off on me (although i've heard stories about that).

advice is all well and good but ultimately it gets down to what works between two people and i think if either side pushes too hard or for too much  then it can get interesting (and that's the part some of the advice for new models may not get into).
Apr 05 13 09:26 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Nikki Magnusson
Posts: 6,841
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Damianne wrote:
I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today

"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today"http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/43/3c652048ad4144b2b346d2bbb5870272/l.gif

Apr 05 13 09:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
MoRina
Posts: 5,771
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


The message I get from the article is:  if you choose to shoot with shady, questionable people who you think are going to try to screw you out of something, you ought to ask for your money up front.

My thinking is that you should check out people you are working with, ask specific questions, ensure you get specific answers, and get agreement in writing on payment and other details in advance of the shoot.  If you have questions about their motives or character, don't book a shoot with them.
Apr 05 13 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jim McSmith
Posts: 762
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom


Drew Smith Photography wrote:
Well Jim, my first thought was; 'have you told Fawna all this?'

I have now. Besides, as a published text it's open to critique like any other published material or art works.

Apr 05 13 10:31 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Echo_
Posts: 282
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany


Wait, so you haven't read the book?
Apr 05 13 10:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jim McSmith
Posts: 762
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom


Echo_ wrote:
Wait, so you haven't read the book?

I have read the excerpt provided by the author. I wasn't discussing the whole book but the chapter on payment. I have read many of the reviews here on MM and Amazon and the material has received a mixed reception for a variety of reasons.

Apr 05 13 10:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 10,108
Santa Ana, California, US


Well, I put my experience/feeling about this in the comments with the article. Where I think this belongs. I also used my real name in the comments. And Fawna responded with a qualification.
Apr 05 13 10:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jim McSmith
Posts: 762
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom


John Allan wrote:
Well, I put my experience/feeling about this in the comments with the article. Where I think this belongs. I also used my real name in the comments. And Fawna responded with a qualification.

My post is probably more detailed than your comment. However, there is no such thing as bad publicity and my critique will probably lead to more interest in the book and greater sales for the author.

Apr 05 13 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5,209
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


Jim McSmith wrote:

My post is probably more detailed than your comment. However, there is no such thing as bad publicity and my critique will probably lead to more interest in the book and greater sales for the author.

Well done Jim - why hasn't Fawna signed you up as her PR agent?

Apr 05 13 10:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BlueMoonPics
Posts: 4,343
New York, New York, US


Nikki Magnusson wrote:

"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today"http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/43/3c652048ad4144b2b346d2bbb5870272/l.gif

Wimpy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … 3ZU#t=130s

Apr 05 13 11:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


Jim McSmith wrote:
My post is probably more detailed than your comment. However, there is no such thing as bad publicity and my critique will probably lead to more interest in the book and greater sales for the author.

Yes, because we were all sitting around waiting to hear what you thought before pulling the trigger on the purchase.

The fact you think your critique would have any bearing on interest in the book or sales figures speaks volumes.

I think you need to publish a book called "The Gospel According To Jim." I'm not sure if it should be in the Self-Help or Fiction section.

Apr 05 13 11:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 38,274
Portland, Oregon, US


Jim McSmith wrote:

My post is probably more detailed than your comment. However, there is no such thing as bad publicity and my critique will probably lead to more interest in the book and greater sales for the author.

None the less, I thought this site had rules against unsolicited critiques, which is not limited to photos in profiles.

Apr 05 13 11:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jim McSmith
Posts: 762
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom


DougBPhoto wrote:
None the less, I thought this site had rules against unsolicited critiques, which is not limited to photos in profiles.

I'm doing a critique of a publicly available text which is the same as doing a critique of a novel like Fifty Shades of Grey or a movie like Last Tango In Paris. This text has been subjected to many critiques across the web already. This isn't a critique of an MM profile. Furthermore, I am discussing the issue of payment raised in the text which is open to discussion without censorship.

Apr 05 13 11:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 38,274
Portland, Oregon, US


Jim McSmith wrote:
I'm doing a critique of a publicly available text which is the same as doing a critique of a novel like Fifty Shades of Grey or a movie like Last Tango In Paris. This text has been subjected to many critiques across the web already. This isn't a critique of an MM profile. Furthermore, I am discussing the issue of payment raised in the text which is open to discussion without censorship.

It looks a lot more like an unsolicited critique of this MM Edu article

http://www.modelmayhem.com/education/mo … hoto-shoot

Jim McSmith wrote:
My advice to Fawna would be to revisit her book with a view to adding that missing second dimension, the perspective of the photographer to the model. This will give her target readership a more realistically informed perspective of the model-photographer relationship. Fawna may wish to consider publishing an amended second edition which would no doubt lend justice to her undoubted talents and expertise.

Yeah, how could anyone think you're giving an unsolicited critique..

John: I'm not expanding it, IIRC, that rule has been applied to this exact thing in the past.

There are already plenty of models who are legitimately annoyed about photographers coming into this forum acting all superior and dismissive of their opinions, by all means, lets push that even further by coming into their house and taking a dump in the middle of their living room.

Apr 05 13 11:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 10,108
Santa Ana, California, US


DougBPhoto wrote:

It looks a lot more like an unsolicited critique of this MM Edu article

http://www.modelmayhem.com/education/mo … hoto-shoot

Although, I think the appropriate place for comments is with the article itself, I'm not sure that lobbying for the expansion of "unsolicited critique" is in anyone's best interest.
I think MM is oppressive enough already of speech.

Apr 05 13 11:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Skydancer Photos
Posts: 21,919
Santa Cruz, California, US


Moderator Note!
Just a note. It's fine to bring up an EDU article in the forums, as well as to agree, disagree, or otherwise discuss the ideas presented. That's a good thing. smile

Please avoid personal critiques and attacks.

Thanks.
Apr 05 13 12:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,781
Atlanta, Georgia, US


ontherocks wrote:
the way i've seen it put is don't sign the model release until you have your money. normally i take care of all that at the beginning of the shoot. and so far no one has run off on me (although i've heard stories about that).

advice is all well and good but ultimately it gets down to what works between two people and i think if either side pushes too hard or for too much  then it can get interesting (and that's the part some of the advice for new models may not get into).

I tend to do it at the end as my releases also stats that nothing was done under duress etc.

Apr 05 13 12:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,942
Seattle, Washington, US


The book is called  "A Wise Girl's Guide to Modeling" not "A Photographer's Perspective on the Decisions Models Make."

Besides, it's obvious that some photographers won't want to pay up front, that's not really a perspective that needs to be pointed out.  Any model who hasn't been paid (as agreed) at the end of a shoot, knows that it's a good idea to get the money first. 

I agree with Fawna, although it's not always necessary to get money up front if you know you're dealing with a reputable photographer who you've checked references on.
Apr 05 13 05:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,523
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I've probably done about a thousand shoots if I had to guess. Very infrequently am i offered payment at the beginning of the shoot. And yet I've never once had a problem collecting payment. Ever. If it's not an agency job, I always get confirmation about the rate beforehand and if it's a client I've never worked with before (or especially if it's a show client because those jobs tend to be hectic and things can easily be forgotten), I always confirm how payment will be received beforehand (will it be cash or cheque on the day of the show or will it be cheque later or an e-transfer?) I've actually never had to remind a client or photographer to pay me at the end of the shoot either. Maybe i've just been lucky though.
Apr 05 13 07:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,869
Olivet, Michigan, US


Kelleth wrote:
I've probably done about a thousand shoots if I had to guess. Very infrequently am i offered payment at the beginning of the shoot. And yet I've never once had a problem collecting payment. Ever. If it's not an agency job, I always get confirmation about the rate beforehand and if it's a client I've never worked with before (or especially if it's a show client because those jobs tend to be hectic and things can easily be forgotten), I always confirm how payment will be received beforehand (will it be cash or cheque on the day of the show or will it be cheque later or an e-transfer?) I've actually never had to remind a client or photographer to pay me at the end of the shoot either. Maybe i've just been lucky though.

I haven't paid that many times, but I've never paid in advance, and it's not uncommon for there to have been an opportunity to "flake" on paying, but I wouldn't dream of it.  One shoot, we had a two hour set, then an hour break while she shot with someone else, and then a second, hour long set.  I went across the street and had lunch during her other shoot, and paid at the end of the second set.  In another case, we did two shoots on consecutive days, and I paid at the end of the second day.  Similarly, when I've done shoots for models / retail clients, I've been paid at the end of the shoot (a bit different, since they haven't yet gotten the complete service, but somewhat similar).

In no case has the one paying attempted to shortchange the other, and I've never had a model refuse to sign the release at a shoot.

Apr 05 13 07:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,598
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


I remember one model I talked to about booking a shoot wanted all RAW images, payment up front, wanted to edit the model release wanted digital images at 700 DPI (yes, I know that makes no sense), and would not agree to a shoot without these concessions, all because she read somewhere that this is what models should do.  Obviously I passed.

6 months later it appeared that she had never gotten a shoot and eventually deleted her profile.  It looks like every other potential photographer prudently decided to pass as well.

I guess my point is that expecting things that may benefit you just because you read somewhere you should get these things, only benefits you if people are willing to work with you given that stipulation.
Apr 05 13 07:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,523
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Art of the nude wrote:

I haven't paid that many times, but I've never paid in advance, and it's not uncommon for there to have been an opportunity to "flake" on paying, but I wouldn't dream of it.  One shoot, we had a two hour set, then an hour break while she shot with someone else, and then a second, hour long set.  I went across the street and had lunch during her other shoot, and paid at the end of the second set.  In another case, we did two shoots on consecutive days, and I paid at the end of the second day.  Similarly, when I've done shoots for models / retail clients, I've been paid at the end of the shoot (a bit different, since they haven't yet gotten the complete service, but somewhat similar).

In no case has the one paying attempted to shortchange the other, and I've never had a model refuse to sign the release at a shoot.

Absolutely. it just kind of has to work on the honour system. Though I'm always sure to save email or message transactions that discuss payment until I receive it...just in case.

Apr 05 13 08:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kithos
Posts: 360
York, Pennsylvania, US


Anyone can write a book and just because it's published, doesn't mean the contents has any validity. It appears to be a good beginners guilde written by a beginner.
Apr 05 13 09:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Virtual Studio
Posts: 5,657
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


[edit] - already done.
Apr 06 13 05:35 am  Link  Quote 
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