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Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,902
Albany, New York, US


This really sounds like altogether a lack of communication on everyone's part.

-You assuming there'd be a MUA. Have you thought about learning to do your own makeup? It might make you more marketable.
-Him not stating what kind of clothes to bring.
-You assuming he wanted the same type of clothes that he already had in his port.
-Him assuming you'd do nudes at the previously agreed upon rate.
-You assuming that just because he wanted to do nudes that he was going to pay you.
-You both not really even getting a vague idea as to what y'all were hoping to accomplish at the shoot.

Is it any wonder why this particular shoot didn't pan out?
Apr 22 13 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Calypso Moon
Posts: 848
Banning, California, US


Laura UnBound wrote:

yes. Even if he had booked an MUA, she could have cancelled/flaked and you would have been in the same situation

Even when they say you dont need to bring ANYTHING, still bring

-simple heels (plain black pumps or strappy heeled sandals)
-makeup
-hair stuff
-black lingerie

50% of the time youre gonna wind up using stuff they said you didnt need to bring.

This.  I ALWAYS bring my entire makeup kit and some basic clothing/shoe options.  It is almost a guarantee that they will ask you for something at the shoot that they didn't ask you to bring.

Apr 22 13 02:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 951
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


Farenell Photography wrote:
This really sounds like altogether a lack of communication on everyone's part.

-You assuming there'd be a MUA. Have you thought about learning to do your own makeup? It might make you more marketable.

He had told me there'd be an MUA. I'm perfectly capable of doing my own make-up (I do for most of my shoots), I just didn't bring any because he said there'd be an MUA.

Farenell Photography wrote:
-You assuming he wanted the same type of clothes that he already had in his port.

Actually, I didn't mention this before, but he claimed he didn't want to use my clothes because according to him they were nothing like what he had in his port.

Farenell Photography wrote:
-You assuming that just because he wanted to do nudes that he was going to pay you.

He was already paying me, but as far as nudes go the rates he had set were far below my normal rates for nudes and it was also not previously discussed that nudes would be shot. Had he told me beforehand that he'd be paying me $20/hr to shoot nudes I wouldn't have accepted the shoot offer.

Apr 22 13 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JSVPhotography
Posts: 4,897
Madison, Wisconsin, US


You were right, he was wrong. You were professional, he was not.
Apr 22 13 02:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,517
Salinas, California, US


Cherrystone wrote:
Your only fault was not walking immediately.

"I don't get MUA/hair on Mondays" is a crock of shit.
JSVPhotography wrote:
You were right, he was wrong. You were professional, he was not.

I agree with those saying you were not at fault!

Bait and switch!  That was no way to be treated!

Apr 22 13 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Lindsey Sharon
Posts: 306
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

When I was a student, I use to go to shoots monthly for the hair students exams.  Great practice and almost always gave you beauty shots.  At every shoot, where there were usually only 10 students in the room, at least 1 MUA would flake.  My best paying film was a job I got because their artist bailed on them the morning they were starting the shoot.  They called me 2 hours behind and I had 1 hr to get there for a 2 week job that paid really freaking well.  We are just as capable of flaking as anyone else in this profession. 

Always keep the basics with you.  I'm never offended if I see a model or actor with their own makeup in their bag.  I'm only insulted if they tell me they brought it "in case you don't have everything".

I just want to know what the day of the week has to do with bringing in a MUA?

Apr 22 13 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DG at studio47
Posts: 2,362
East Ridge, Tennessee, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

ALWAYS. if you don't need it, fine. Think like a "Boy Scout"--always be prepared.

Apr 22 13 02:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Trisha May Photography
Posts: 304
Colchester, Connecticut, US


Top Gun Digital wrote:
As a photographer, I always tell the model what wardrobe to bring before the shoot.  Since we are typically shooting my ideas how would she know what to bring unless I tell her.

The excuses the photographer gave you are bullshit.  I think he just wanted to shoot nudes and was hoping you would do it for $20/hr once you arrived at the location.

+1

Apr 22 13 02:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hector Pachas
Posts: 87
Stamford, Connecticut, US


I wouldn't call you at fault, but certainly naive. It is a good practice to have all details clear from both sides.

With that said, it is clear that the photographer tried to take advantage, in which case you're in your right to walk away.

You should get in the habit of have either a contract or release that specifies all those details, and have it signed before you even start shooting, it's just a good business practice.

Good luck,
Apr 22 13 02:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 951
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


Lynz_Sharon wrote:
I just want to know what the day of the week has to do with bringing in a MUA?

Thank you for your advice.

According to him, the days of the week thing was because he scheduled certain kinds of shoots on certain days of the week.

Apr 22 13 02:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DG at studio47
Posts: 2,362
East Ridge, Tennessee, US


always have SOMETHING in writing, even if it is a printout of the emails you shared with the photographer. You've been on MM 3 years,long enough to know that if it is not in writing, it did not happen, was not promised, etc., etc., yada yada yada. best wishes in the future OP.
Apr 22 13 02:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 951
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


DG at studio47 wrote:
always have SOMETHING in writing, even if it is a printout of the emails you shared with the photographer. You've been on MM 3 years,long enough to know that if it is not in writing, it did not happen, was not promised, etc., etc., yada yada yada. best wishes in the future OP.

He actually pulled up our e-mails on his computer himself, so it was all there.

Apr 22 13 02:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Light and Lens Studio
Posts: 1,261
Sisters, Oregon, US


You were right to walk out.  You probably should have left earlier. 

You aren't the "Lone Ranger" here.  The forum is glutted with posts like this.  Do what you feel is right; then you don't have to seek approval of the entire population of MMville when things don't go as planned. 

Some photographers are dorks -changing what's agreed upon, etc.  Some models are dorks -refusing to shoot what has been agreed upon.  Shit happens.  It happens in every walk of life.  Accept it. Move on.

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/130320/11/5149fcfdc4ac7_m.jpg
Apr 22 13 03:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Horwitz
Posts: 2,593
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:

How?

FOR NOT WALKING OUT


duh!

Apr 22 13 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SensualThemes
Posts: 3,042
Swoyersville, Pennsylvania, US


Chain Reaction wrote:
Sounds like bait and switch. I don't blame you for walking.

I would have walked out on me...but neither party was  me,

but yea

walk
walk
run


lkin
i

Apr 22 13 03:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Expression Unlimited
Posts: 1,123
San Diego, California, US


JSVPhotography wrote:
You were right, he was wrong. You were professional, he was not.

agreed

...with this premis

due to MUA mix up,
you did not have the look he expected, or the clothes he expected / wanted and perhaps then he didn't then want to shoot and pay you...
however he offerred something he thought was reasonable - don't scream at me, you do shoot Nudes and hes been paid for them - but you didn't agree, fair enough,  so you left

that's cool
it's not wrong

BUT if he was creepy about it and dishonest about it - that doesn't show from what I just read here


Seriously tho, you came with NO make up with you?? Seriously??

Apr 22 13 03:18 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
CHAD ALAN
Posts: 3,337
Los Angeles, California, US


Sorry this happened to you!

As others have said, there are steps you can take to make sure you are prepared for anything that may come up, MUA's not showing up, etc. But sounds like the photographer's day was poorly planned, and he didn't communicate his needs esp with regard to wanting to shoot nudes.
Apr 22 13 03:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 2,918
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


Collaboration on creative projects will result in some great and a few not-so-great shoots. You will certainly meet some people that just do not have your same creative style or direction.  Creativity and planing for me is the responsibility of the photographer and there obviously was none.  I would write this off as a bad shoot and move on.

As far as CAMing a bad shoot, I don't see that he violated any MM terms.  He wanted to shoot nudes and you didn't agree on price.  Just a failed negotiation not anything sinister.
Apr 22 13 03:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,829
Santa Ana, California, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Ahem. I didn't say "bring a MUA", I said "bring make-up". Big difference. Also, I am perfectly capable of doing my make-up seeing how I've lived the last 21 years as a girl, but if a MUA is supposed to be present, I won't necessarily be prepared to do my own extensive make-up looks. Please do me a favor and read my posts before you badly troll them. Kthanks.

You might want to stop and think before you start calling me names. So I misread bringing makeup to mean bring mua - honest mistake. I was trying to help you. Also, being a girl and therefore knowing makeup is different from knowing makeup for photography.

Apr 22 13 03:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6,370
Dallas, Texas, US


If what you are telling us is true...then he was a total tool.

Telling you that there will be a MUA, then not having one and just blowing it off as no big deal...not cool, very unprofessional and simply dishonest.

Booking you for a clothed shoot at one rate, then telling you that it will be a nude shoot instead, and at the same rate...not cool, very unprofessional and simply dishonest.

These are the kind of guys that give MM a bad name!

When you run into these kinds of situations, there's really no point in remaining.  If these are his opening games...what can you expect next?  It sucks that there are guys like this out there, but unfortunately, all you can do is leave immediately and suck it up.
Apr 22 13 03:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 951
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


John Allan wrote:
You might want to stop and think before you start calling me names. So I misread bringing makeup to mean bring mua - honest mistake. I was trying to help you. Also, being a girl and therefore knowing makeup is different from knowing makeup for photography.

I never called you names. I said you were badly trolling, which you were. Nothing you've said has been constructive.

Apr 22 13 04:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 951
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


Expression Unlimited wrote:
however he offerred something he thought was reasonable - don't scream at me, you do shoot Nudes and hes been paid for them - but you didn't agree, fair enough,  so you left

He didn't "offer". It was more like "I don't like that dress. Take it off and put this shear cloth over your body and we'll shoot you like that".

Funny sidenote, when I told him I wasn't shooting nudes for $20/hr he said "well but this isn't nude". I lol'd a little on the inside.

Apr 22 13 04:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,829
Santa Ana, California, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
I never called you names. I said you were badly trolling, which you were. Nothing you've said has been constructive.

That's name calling. And it's untrue.
You asked in your OP if you were wrong. I answered saying that you seem to have a lot of drama in your modeling life and that you may want to look at the common denominator - you.
I misread your post about makeup to mean that you were asking if you should bring your own mua. I answered that question in good faith.
Again - you need to stop throwing accusations of trolling around, much like you also seem to have a habit of labeling those with which you work with derogatory names (your previous thread). Maybe your aggressive approach, if it carries over to your shoots, is having an impact on the way photographers treat, respect you.

Apr 22 13 04:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


You know my position on "stripper rates".

That said, if he agreed to shoot clothed at $20 per hour and provide a MUA and knows that you charge more for nudes than that was the agreement and he's a dick for trying to change it during the shoot.

Personally I wouldn't really have blamed you for walking out as soon as it became apparent a MUA wasn't being provided.





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com
Apr 22 13 04:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CSDewitt Photography
Posts: 22
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

YES!!!

Apr 22 13 04:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CSDewitt Photography
Posts: 22
Atlanta, Georgia, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
You know my position on "stripper rates".

That said, if he agreed to shoot clothed at $20 per hour and provide a MUA and knows that you charge more for nudes than that was the agreement and he's a dick for trying to change it during the shoot.

Personally I wouldn't really have blamed you for walking out as soon as it became apparent a MUA wasn't being provided.





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

+1

Apr 22 13 04:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 951
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


John Allan wrote:
That's name calling. And it's untrue.
You asked in your OP if you were wrong. I answered saying that you seem to have a lot of drama in your modeling life and that you may want to look at the common denominator - you.
I misread your post about makeup to mean that you were asking if you should bring your own mua. I answered that question in good faith.
Again - you need to stop throwing accusations of trolling around, much like you also seem to have a habit of labeling those with which you work with derogatory names (your previous thread). Maybe your aggressive approach, if it carries over to your shoots, is having an impact on the way photographers treat, respect you.

Yes, that's not telling me I'm wrong, that's telling me I'm dramatic, without telling me how you came to this conclusion. I'm a pretty happy model overall. Like I said, this is the first time in 3 years that something like this has happened to me. I'm not sure if you've talked to the photographers I've shot with but I seriously doubt you've talked to most of them, and seeing as you've never shot with me you know very little about how I operate as a model.

Also, point out to me where I called a photographers I've worked with derogatory names.

Apr 22 13 04:42 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Robb Mann
Posts: 10,116
Baltimore, Maryland, US


It sounds like you missed a few red flags from the photographer. Chalk it up to a not-so-expensive lesson and move on.
Apr 22 13 04:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18,066
Orlando, Florida, US


John Allan wrote:

No, you shouldn't drag along a makeup artist for "just in case". That's a waste of the artist's time at the very least. You should however, as a model, be skilled enough in basic makeup for photography, that you could handle a simple natural look, as well as a simple more fashion oriented look. Things happen.

reading comprehension failure

Apr 22 13 04:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Seismic Images
Posts: 519
Morisset, New South Wales, Australia


robert b mitchell wrote:
You should have gotten out sooner. That was your only fault. Don't listen to the trolls here!

Yeah its a bait and switch alright.

Apr 22 13 04:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gavin Poh
Posts: 228
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

Yes you should. Most of the time the MUA doesnt stick around for the whole shoot, so having your own for quick touch ups is always handy.
I think you did the right thing to question the tog, and then walk out. As many have stated here its a communications issue and in my view, quite straight forward.

The tog (may have been flaked on by Mua) wanted to add nudes to the shoot.
Model has a price in mind.

Both disagree..

Whats left to do BUT to leave?

You've done the right thing and im glad you didnt name and shame the tog on a public forum.

Apr 22 13 04:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Abby Hawkins
Posts: 2,002
Boston, Massachusetts, US


You were very much in the right.  I get the feeling that he thought he could get away with it because, "Well, I *am* paying her!" Even though it's not at all what you agreed.

I've noticed some people are like that.  It doesn't matter what the $$ amount is, or what you agreed to previously, they think they can get the world because they put some currency on the table.
Apr 22 13 04:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

Yes, always worth having an emergency kit available just in case to do simple looks and something to style/brush your hair. It's not expected if a MUA is already part of the team, but could be a real life saver.

If you are providing clothing, it's always worth sending a few snapshots of the garments (I recommend Whatsapp if you have a Smart Phone), just to be on the safe side. Also have heels, nude underwear  / black underwear too.

If I'm travelling to a shoot I always over-stock on photography equipment and don't use half of it. It's my comfort blanket.

Darren

www.darrenbrade.com

Apr 22 13 04:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DG at studio47
Posts: 2,362
East Ridge, Tennessee, US


always have SOMETHING in writing, even if it is a printout of the emails you shared with the photographer. You've been on MM 3 years,long enough to know that if it is not in writing, it did not happen, was not promised, etc., etc., yada yada yada. best wishes in the future OP.

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
He actually pulled up our e-mails on his computer himself, so it was all there.

then it would make perfect sense for you to walk away from the shoot, since his vision and intentions did not match the email communication. My advice was that you take the printed out emails with you to the shoot, sorry that I did not make that clear. have your own 'stuff'. always.have your own MUA/HS products, your own record of the shoot concept and communications. never rely 100% on someone else unless you have experience with them. its just good business practice and you won't run into this problem again. as always, best wishes OP.

Apr 22 13 05:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Warren Photography
Posts: 721
GLENMOORE, Pennsylvania, US


You should have asked him what he wanted you to bring. "As many looks as you can" could mean a lot of things.

However, I would say you were right to walk.
Apr 22 13 05:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Justin Suyama
Posts: 113
Seattle, Washington, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

That's not an answer.

+1 ...  not an answer, a dumb response. Glad you walked, don't do business with idiots, pervs or egos, at least after you've found out they fit that criteria.

Apr 22 13 05:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Rock Victorian
Posts: 142
Norfolk, Virginia, US


Based on your account of what happened, you were in the right.
Apr 22 13 05:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,796
Olivet, Michigan, US


I would happily shoot you nude, and clothed.  And I wouldn't charge a cent!
Apr 22 13 06:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CraigVoisin Photography
Posts: 129
Whitesboro, Texas, US


Top Gun Digital wrote:
As a photographer, I always tell the model what wardrobe to bring before the shoot.  Since we are typically shooting my ideas how would she know what to bring unless I tell her.

The excuses the photographer gave you are bullshit.  I think he just wanted to shoot nudes and was hoping you would do it for $20/hr once you arrived at the location.

Exactly !

Unfortunately this happens alot more than what is let out publicly .

Apr 22 13 06:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AaronPawlak
Posts: 2,704
New York, New York, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Am I at fault here? Or was I in the right in walking out?

Also, this thankfully didn't wreck my day. At most it prevented me from sleeping in and doing some morning yoga.

You could (or should) have asked that he pay for your time that he wasted.
As far as I can see, he still owes you the 20/hr, for whatever number of hours it was to be. You showed up and ready to work.

Apr 22 13 06:07 pm  Link  Quote 
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