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first123last
Photographer
Bryan Benoit
Posts: 2,106
Miami, Florida, US


The F-Stop wrote:
Come on really.. you can't work it out with the model? How about a test post to see how may hits n comments you get.. let the public decide in Critic section of the forums maybe?

The whole point is that she doesn't want them posted anywhere

May 16 13 12:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charlie-CNP
Posts: 2,644
New York, New York, US


OP: A couple things to take away from this thread.

1. ALWAYS get a signed release regardless if it is TF*, paid, or whatever terms.

2. Generally if it is a TF* shoot, it is just good karma to share images that you may post with the model before posting them to agree on which ones to post. That way, everyone is on the same page. If it is paid however, that is a different circumstance because a release generally states that rights to review or reject images is waived in exchange for payment or other consideration.

3. If it is a friend, let it slide and take down the image for good karma. However, remember this when you are shooting next time if there is a next time with her. Tell her straight up from the get go which images you would like to post before you post and make sure that nothing beyond whatever is agreed upon happens during the shoot. It is completely possible for boobs to pop out of open jackets..etc. during shoots. In that case, you have to call the model out on that if it does not fit the concept and direct them to make the best images. They can't always see when their stuff is hanging out during the shoot.

good luck in your journey!
May 16 13 01:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JoJo
Contest Queen
Posts: 25,389
Clearwater, Florida, US


Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Okay, so I've got a business/legal/etiquette questions for everyone. I am going to explain things fully so you can understand the situation.

First, I've been in photography for just shy of two years, but in entertainment for much longer than that. Because of my financial situation, I'm still working with my original equipment and mostly doing TF shoots (although I have paid before and would prefer to always if I could). I book about 50% of my shoots via MM and the other are friends, network buddies, and people that I meet. My goal here is to create art and keep building up my portfolio, not establish this as my career. I would eventually love to sell some of my prints, but that's not a priority for me at this time.

When I shoot TF, I do not request my models sign anything. I've read comments from other models who will not sign releases for TF shoots anyway. I do make sure we communicate clearly via email (where there is a paper trail) about the concept and general terms (getting them copies of images, etc.) and I have not had a problem until today.

I had a shoot with a friend a few months ago. The wardrobe was torn blue jeans and a leather jacket without a shirt underneath. No nudity, but a bit daring for her. She liked the concept, agreed to it, and had fun shooting it. We even did some great shots of her wearing a t-shirt underneath as well. I got her copies of the untouched files and have slowly been processing them and releasing them into my portfolio.

Today, I finished processing one of my favorite image from the shoot that required a bit of extra retouching. Her pose causes her breast to hang out more than the others, but still completely covered up. I love the image and the couple people I showed it to also think it's great. I texted her that I was about to post another image of her and the conversation quickly turned south.

Long story short, she doesn't want me to post it unless I photoshop a fake t-shirt onto her (which I'm not willing to do). And she actually drew the line saying that she didn't sign a release and is refusing to let me post it online or in any sort of public exhibition, etc. She claims she doesn't want it to come back and bite her later. (She is also an actress.)

Now, there are several ways to look at this. First, I do not want to damage my rapport and friendship with her and I'd even like to shoot with her again. With that in mind, I am (begrudgingly) respecting her request.

What I would like to hear from everyone is, how could this have been avoiding and what really would my legal rights in a situation like this be? My immediate thought is that I could post it regardless of her wishes, but that would burn a bridge that I want to remain intact. Are there some agreements that some of you are using that help in these situations, even without cash flowing (and maybe even saying what would happen if the photographer later wanted to sell prints)? Is there anything else that I'm not thinking?

My goal is to hopefully start getting the cash to pay every model I shoot with so I fully own photos and can do what I want with them, but I'm still a ways off from being able to do that.

Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!

- Aaron

Yup, screw the model - you own the image, you hold copyright - put the pic in your port - to hell with her.

Now, one question - what are you going to do for models once word gets around that you're putting pics in your port that the model strenuously objects to?
Models do talk... and check references.
How many models are going to stand in line for your shoots if you were to receive bad references?

Good news travels fast - bad news travels faster.
You spend years developing a good reputation but all that work could go right down the tube.

May 16 13 01:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,889
Olivet, Michigan, US


Designit - Edward Olson wrote:
You didn't intend to have her being exposed.
The shot shows exposure than was unintended.
She doesn't want it shown.
Don't post it.

EDIT: To answer your later question, to avoid this situation in the future, don't try to change the terms of the shoot afterward and expect a model to be happy with it.

This.

I strongly recommend getting releases, but that shouldn't change the fact that you should honor your agreements.

May 16 13 06:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,889
Olivet, Michigan, US


Rasa Von Werder wrote:
Hey Aaron - Please listen & hear me out, U've touched a sensitive subject where I have got burned a couple times.  ALWAYS GET A RELEASE EVEN WHEN IT'S TP  BECAUSE WITH TP U HAVE GIVEN SOMETHING VALUABLE TO THE MODEL - they gave U something, U gave them something.  If U R worth Ur salt, which I presume U R, U need a release to use these pictures whether or not U gave the model cash - GET A RELEASE!  ALWAYS!
I have found the following:  With women THEY GET ANTSY, SKITTISH, & HAVE REGRETS RE. ANYTHING & EVERYTHING & THEY WILL PUT U THROUGH THE GRINDER AFTER ALL IS SAID & DONE!  Have had them do it to me!  They AGREE to take the pictures.  Then they want the pictures - then they don't want U to use them! There is always a reason, but @ bottom it's fear, paranoia, bullcrap.
I had the same thing happen with my first MM model.  I paid him twice as much as he was worth.  I can work around faults, but this man had nothing but.  I have always PRIDED myself on working around faults.  So I covered his pot belly with a shirt, but when I turned him around, he had cellulite on his buns.  Then I turned him to the front, his face was so ugly it could stop a clock--I made him turn his face away from the camera.  Finally, after maneuvering every which way, I got about a dozen decent shots--one dozen shots of this creature for $300.
Here is the bottom line.  I then posted the pics, he demanded I take one down because he did not like the way he looked.  I told him "tough luck" & blocked him.
Another model I paid $500. to (& $250. in advances he was not paying back) suddenly writes me a letter to TAKE DOWN ALL HIS IMAGES - I can keep them for "my private use" but not make them public - & remove my name off anything of his - he wants to part ways with me forever.  Later he worked for me again, & said HIS NEW GIRLFRIEND HAD A JEALOUS FIT & MADE HIM DO IT.
GET A RELEASE WITH EACH & EVERY MODEL U USE NO MATTER WHAT - HAVE SOMEONE WITNESS IT JUST IN CASE.
Words to the wise.  THERE WILL ALWAYS B TROUBLE, SOONER OR LATER!

As I said above, whether you get a release or not, you should honor your agreements.

May 16 13 06:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,889
Olivet, Michigan, US


FrancisXavier wrote:
As the photographer, you own the rights to the images, whether a release was signed or not.  So you have the right to use the shots as you see fit,  But... what is legal is not what is always fair.  The basic concept of a TF shoot is that both of you benefit.  If the model feels a particular photo from a shoot benefits you but not them, and if you ever intend to work with this model in the future, then, unless there is some overwhelming reason for using it, don't post, sell or publish in any way the offending image.  It is the old dilemma, what is legal versus what is moral, and in areas not affected by overwhelming need, I always choose moral.  Just my two cents.

There's a difference between some images benefiting me and not the model, and the other way around, which is fine, and having images that actually cause one of us distress.

May 16 13 07:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The F-Stop
Posts: 1,510
New York, New York, US


Bryan Benoit wrote:

The whole point is that she doesn't want them posted anywhere

Well I can understand if she stated in her shoot no nudes and this pic has someting reveealing.. yes then heck I wouldn't post it.

BUT without know that.... your point is she is selfish? TF is a two way street and each should come to some compromise as to what is good or not. So how about putting it up in the critique forum n let the members chime in as part of the fun?

It seems models also don't see thmselves as others do and she just may be obsessing about her cellulite, fat ass, or small tits.. but meanwhile the shot is a killer in the art world.

Vein or stupid?

Negotiate.. compromise?

May 16 13 07:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
flashart
Posts: 17
Puyallup, Washington, US


long story short if you post it she won't work with you again. Maybe none of her friends.
May 16 13 07:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,889
Olivet, Michigan, US


Nathine wrote:
Input from a model.

I carry with me contract agreements for paid and TFP/CD. I think it's better for both sides. In general what it says is that both parties agree to how the prints are to be released.
If stays much friendlier that way.

Nathine

Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:
Wait.  You make the photographers sign YOUR release?  And they actually do it?

I'd do that.  If she paid me enough.  Double or triple standard rates, maybe, depending on the details.

May 16 13 07:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5,878
Troy, Michigan, US


Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Okay, so I've got a business/legal/etiquette questions for everyone. I am going to explain things fully so you can understand the situation.

First, I've been in photography for just shy of two years, but in entertainment for much longer than that. Because of my financial situation, I'm still working with my original equipment and mostly doing TF shoots (although I have paid before and would prefer to always if I could). I book about 50% of my shoots via MM and the other are friends, network buddies, and people that I meet. My goal here is to create art and keep building up my portfolio, not establish this as my career. I would eventually love to sell some of my prints, but that's not a priority for me at this time.

When I shoot TF, I do not request my models sign anything. I've read comments from other models who will not sign releases for TF shoots anyway. I do make sure we communicate clearly via email (where there is a paper trail) about the concept and general terms (getting them copies of images, etc.) and I have not had a problem until today.

I had a shoot with a friend a few months ago. The wardrobe was torn blue jeans and a leather jacket without a shirt underneath. No nudity, but a bit daring for her. She liked the concept, agreed to it, and had fun shooting it. We even did some great shots of her wearing a t-shirt underneath as well. I got her copies of the untouched files and have slowly been processing them and releasing them into my portfolio.

Today, I finished processing one of my favorite image from the shoot that required a bit of extra retouching. Her pose causes her breast to hang out more than the others, but still completely covered up. I love the image and the couple people I showed it to also think it's great. I texted her that I was about to post another image of her and the conversation quickly turned south.

Long story short, she doesn't want me to post it unless I photoshop a fake t-shirt onto her (which I'm not willing to do). And she actually drew the line saying that she didn't sign a release and is refusing to let me post it online or in any sort of public exhibition, etc. She claims she doesn't want it to come back and bite her later. (She is also an actress.)

Now, there are several ways to look at this. First, I do not want to damage my rapport and friendship with her and I'd even like to shoot with her again. With that in mind, I am (begrudgingly) respecting her request.

What I would like to hear from everyone is, how could this have been avoiding and what really would my legal rights in a situation like this be? My immediate thought is that I could post it regardless of her wishes, but that would burn a bridge that I want to remain intact. Are there some agreements that some of you are using that help in these situations, even without cash flowing (and maybe even saying what would happen if the photographer later wanted to sell prints)? Is there anything else that I'm not thinking?

My goal is to hopefully start getting the cash to pay every model I shoot with so I fully own photos and can do what I want with them, but I'm still a ways off from being able to do that.

Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!

- Aaron

no release, no posting...next time, get a release regardless.

May 16 13 07:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darryl Varner
Posts: 725
San Jacinto, California, US


My two cents' worth:

1. Always get a release
2. Don't post it
3. If the shot's really all that remarkable and you feel you absolutely have to use it, you may want to consider making a hard copy and including it your paper portfolio as a sample of your work. Otherwise, it's probably best to just re-shoot it with a different model.
May 16 13 07:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


I'm starting to learn these scenarios can be avoided by showing the model every image from a TF shoot and let them decide which ones they really really dislike. Then you don't spend time editing a photo they aren't happy with.  It can get to the point where someone's demands are insane, but if they want a photo or two eliminated for whatever reason, just save everyone trouble and delete them.  In the past I've done TF shoots by showing the models a selection of photos I picked out from the shoot, but it's starting to seem flawed to me.  I am very generous with the number of images I will work on, but that might not be enough.  TF is really a partnership.

I also understand everyone has their own way of doing business.  Not saying my opinion is right or wrong..it's just different.
May 16 13 07:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 4,091
Los Angeles, California, US


The F-Stop wrote:
Well I can understand if she stated in her shoot no nudes and this pic has someting reveealing.. yes then heck I wouldn't post it.

BUT without know that.... your point is she is selfish? TF is a two way street and each should come to some compromise as to what is good or not. So how about putting it up in the critique forum n let the members chime in as part of the fun?

It seems models also don't see thmselves as others do and she just may be obsessing about her cellulite, fat ass, or small tits.. but meanwhile the shot is a killer in the art world.

Vein or stupid?

Negotiate.. compromise?

...

wat

She agreed to implied nudity. The boob wasn't a total nip slip but there was more boob than she was comfortable with for one reason or another. She asks the photographer not to use it.

... so you tell him to post it on a PUBLIC critique forum to peers he does not know? ... because you think that she might think she's fat or something?

Did you ever consider that maybe she just doesn't want that much boob to be visible for some reason and that posting it in a PUBLIC critique forum to strangers is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the OP should do?

It's a trade shoot, and she felt a line was crossed and requested for the image to not see the light of day. I highly doubt it's a matter of "omg I don't like my boob fat" ... and it was one image that just didn't fly as opposed to the entire shoot.

And, y'know, no money exchanged hands... if she was paid, I'd be of a different opinion, but it sounds like she's a friend and she just didn't feel OK with that image.

May 16 13 07:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Innovative Imagery
Posts: 2,815
Los Angeles, California, US


It is pretty simple.

1.  Do a shooting agreement detailing the type of shoot and the amount of
     compensation you both will receive, be it pictures or money.  Level of revealing,
     usage, copyright, etc. should all be covered.

     Both of you (or all of you, MUA, Stylist - if they are getting pictures too) agree to
     the terms.  Both (All) of you sign it.  Execute a 2257 form, if applicable.

2.  Have the model sign a model release, with one of the conditions that it becomes
     effective upon payment of the agreed upon compensation.

2.  Do the Shoot.  Do a good job.

3.  Deliver on the compensation and include a usage agreement detailing their
     understanding or what permissions they have regarding retouching, posting on
     social media, water marks, print sales, whatever.  Have them sign that they got it
     and understand and accept it.

That is four separate pieces of documentation.  It makes it pretty clear what was covered and understood by the parties.

With respect to the OP's situation, since you don't want to burn that bridge, don't post the image.  In the future, IF you are going to solicit their opinion, then show them before you spend time on the image and give them an indication on what you can do.

I wouldn't.  I have artistic control.  I shoot to their approved limits.  I don't try to get anything by them. If a nip slip or some other issue happens to get recorded, I delete it or never show it.  Keep a copy of the documents with the image files by photographing them with your camera or scanning them.  File the originals.

CLARIFICATION: When I said I wouldn't I mean I wouldn't after the fact.  If a model wanted to experiment with some ideas on a  shoot, say nudity for example, as an additional part of a TF shoot, I would agree ahead of time for her to review and accept them.  Once she decided they were OK and signed the release, then that is that.  I wouldn't do that for an entire shoot, nude or otherwise, unless she was paying me.
May 16 13 11:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Aaron Matthew Kaiser
Posts: 8
Burbank, California, US


Thanks again for everyone's feedback. This has been very helpful.
May 17 13 12:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,718
Salinas, California, US


With a TF shoot with someone I want to shoot with again, I would not post it if she didn't like it.   You didn't say if the ones you showed it to were males who would dig boobs hanging out no matter!  So your friend is particular about what gets out there, and you now know this.  If you feel this one shot is so great that you must post it, then don't expect your friendship with her to continue.

When I shoot glamour and/or nudes, I pay models for those images with their boobs hanging out.  It's something that they are not going to complain about.  They're getting paid!  wink
May 17 13 12:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,718
Salinas, California, US


JoJo wrote:

Yup, screw the model - you own the image, you hold copyright - put the pic in your port - to hell with her.

Now, one question - what are you going to do for models once word gets around that you're putting pics in your port that the model strenuously objects to?
Models do talk... and check references.
How many models are going to stand in line for your shoots if you were to receive bad references?

Good news travels fast - bad news travels faster.
You spend years developing a good reputation but all that work could go right down the tube.

^^^^  Listen to this!  ^^^^^

May 17 13 12:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Barely StL
Posts: 880
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Nip slips happen - a lot. If nudity (or nipples showing or whatever) was not part of your agreement with the model before the shoot, don't even ask. Just delete them.

There's one model I've shot nine times over the past two years. In one avant-garde, open-jacket shoot there were at least a dozen nip slips. She knows nobody will ever see them.

It's amazing how much more relaxed she is - and how much more willing to push the envelope. She is now free to focus on poses and expressions rather than worrying about whether an open jacket is a little too open.

There should be a clear understanding and agreement as to the intent of a shoot from the beginning. Stick with the agreement.

If a model feels that a photos from a trade shoot shows more of anything than she's comfortable with, don't use the photo; You have a lot more to lose than to gain.

If you're doing a paid shoot for publication, work with a model with whom whatever it is that you want to shoot is clearly within her limits - not at the edge of them.
May 17 13 01:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark C Smith
Posts: 857
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


The most important thing is what you already stated, you want to work with this model again and feel like you have a good rapport.

If I had a great shoot with a model and we planned to shoot again, I wouldn't let a disagreement over one image ruin that vibe. One image, even a great one, isn't worth the possibility of many more great images in the future and who knows what else from good word of mouth. Models tends to know other models smile
May 17 13 04:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JAE
Posts: 2,140
West Chester, Pennsylvania, US


One image isn't going to mean that much to you in the long run.  I would just not use this image and respect her boundaries.  Bad word of mouth can travel fast.
May 17 13 06:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RONALD NZ TAN
Posts: 2,381
San Francisco, California, US


Always respect the comfort zone of your model. Based from reading your thread, this model is also your friend. I don't know how close of friendship and I don't think it really matters.

Again . . . I always believe in advocacy towards respecting the comfort zone of models.

Trust is like a vase. I am certain you heard this before. You can break the trust—either intentional or accidental—regardless, once the vase (trust) has been repaired, it isn't the same and completely whole like the original. Keep in mind that you are starting out and trying to earn professional credibility and positive reputation. You don't need dislikes or unprofessional comments against you at this time.
May 17 13 06:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Aaron Matthew Kaiser
Posts: 8
Burbank, California, US


Barely StL wrote:
Nip slips happen - a lot. If nudity (or nipples showing or whatever) was not part of your agreement with the model before the shoot, don't even ask. Just delete them.

There was no nip-slip. She was still covered where it mattered and the shot was within what we discussed prior to shooting. She just got cold feel afterward and decided she didn't want it out there in the universe.

May 17 13 10:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,492
Houston, Texas, US


Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Now, there are several ways to look at this. First, I do not want to damage my rapport and friendship with her and I'd even like to shoot with her again. With that in mind, I am (begrudgingly) respecting her request.

Most likley, your rapport with the model is toast regardless of how much you accomdate her.

May 17 13 10:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
GingerMuse
Posts: 369
STUDIO CITY, California, US


ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS get a model release signed.
I don't know any models who are against signing a model release at a shoot unless there is something in the release that doesn't seem right.
I also do photography and have never had an issue with a model/actress signing a release. I will not shoot without one.

Sounds to me like you weren't working with someone who is very professional. If she wasn't comfortable with you posting a photo of her wearing a jacket with no top underneath (assuming her breasts were covered), then she shouldn't have decided to pose that way and wasted your time. She's lucky that you are being nice and decided to remove it.
I don't know why you would want to work with her again, but that's your choice. I personally wouldn't.

but seriously, you should always have the model sign a release. It's not worth it not to have it.
May 17 13 10:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,492
Houston, Texas, US


Rasa Von Werder wrote:
GET A RELEASE WITH EACH & EVERY MODEL U USE NO MATTER WHAT - HAVE SOMEONE WITNESS IT JUST IN CASE.
Words to the wise.  THERE WILL ALWAYS B TROUBLE, SOONER OR LATER!

GingerMuse wrote:
but seriously, you should always have the model sign a release. It's not worth it not to have it.

To date I have done over 500 model shoots over the past 8 years. Out of all those, I have only had one hostile request to take images down and one friendly request. I've also taken down all images of 1 model by my own choice because the relationship soured and I no longer wanted to show any of my work with them.

IMHO, those are favorible enough odds so that the hassle or getting releases is greater than the hassle of a rare dissatisfied model and therefore choose not to bother with them.

And frankly, I find it to be liberating as do many of the models.

May 17 13 10:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,108
Nashville, Tennessee, US


Nathine wrote:
Input from a model.

I carry with me contract agreements for paid and TFP/CD. I think it's better for both sides. In general what it says is that both parties agree to how the prints are to be released.
If stays much friendlier that way.

Nathine

Yup, it stays friendly. I'd say, *please* leave my studio now.

May 18 13 12:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,108
Nashville, Tennessee, US


I'd not use it. Better to avoid drama. And not work with someone that difficult.
May 18 13 12:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Private Collection
Posts: 34
Beverly Hills, California, US


In the rare instances where I shoot TF, regardless of the release, I give the model 100% approval over all implied/nude/erotic/fetish images that we shoot. If they aren't happy with it, then I don't post it.  YES, it's bitten me in the butt...had shots I love that a model didn't, but it gives my models extra confidence and we really push their limits knowing we can 'dial it back' later.

I'll sacrifice a few images for that.
Jul 20 13 10:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


From the description I'm guessing you were shooting something like this:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2845/9325665781_b395fb408c_z.jpg

and got this:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2827/9328467884_e0b887676b_z.jpg

(I showed these to the model and she was fine with both versions BTW).

Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
There was no nip-slip. She was still covered where it mattered and the shot was within what we discussed prior to shooting. She just got cold feel afterward and decided she didn't want it out there in the universe.

The only 'safe' way of doing this type of shot is to shoot with a model who does topless or nude.
Failing that, explain to the model that there may be 'loose nipples' running amok but that since she's not agreed to 'topless' then she can review any you deem borderline and let her decide.

Unless she agrees up-front to nippleage, it's churlish to post them.

When shooting it may be feasible to tape the nipples to prevent 'slippage': these were taped...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7336/9328518790_03018f04f9_z.jpg

Here you can just see the edge of the tape where it hasn't been 'shopped' out yet:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3738/9325720511_6e0eeff5fb_z.jpg

Only a little straightening of the garment's edge in photoshop was required to get it to look like it was hanging naturally...

Jul 21 13 03:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image Magik
Posts: 1,068
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


Generally under those circumstances it's just best to let it be. In the end it's only a photo. It's not like you can't take another one or better one. Bad blood is nearly impossible to repair.
Jul 21 13 04:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image Magik
Posts: 1,068
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


Barely StL wrote:
Nip slips happen - a lot. If nudity (or nipples showing or whatever) was not part of your agreement with the model before the shoot, don't even ask. Just delete them.

There's one model I've shot nine times over the past two years. In one avant-garde, open-jacket shoot there were at least a dozen nip slips. She knows nobody will ever see them.

It's amazing how much more relaxed she is - and how much more willing to push the envelope. She is now free to focus on poses and expressions rather than worrying about whether an open jacket is a little too open.

There should be a clear understanding and agreement as to the intent of a shoot from the beginning. Stick with the agreement.

If a model feels that a photos from a trade shoot shows more of anything than she's comfortable with, don't use the photo; You have a lot more to lose than to gain.

If you're doing a paid shoot for publication, work with a model with whom whatever it is that you want to shoot is clearly within her limits - not at the edge of them.

Pretty much what I do:-) And because of it models aren't scared to try different things with me or shoot implied stuff.

Jul 21 13 04:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Nogawd Photography
Posts: 118
Cleveland, Ohio, US


As some have hinted at, some bad release info in this thread.
Jul 21 13 04:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ars Gratia Artis 908
Posts: 80
Wooster, Ohio, US


Don't use the photo, but keep it for yourself.

1. Hire a nude model to recreate the exact pose for and do a re-shoot of the idea.

2. Wait. I shot a model in tank top and panties and she had a perfect behind, so I posted the pic. Her family and friends found the pic and she got embarrassed and asked me to take the pic down. I did right away, no arguments. A little bit of time passed and I talked to her and she got over the embarrassment factor and TOLD me to re-post the pic, which I did then.

If she is an actress, she might be going through a tricky situation and can't take the risk. She might also at some future date, need a really sexy photo of herself that pushes the lines, but doesn't cross them. She has your phone number...when she calls you, tell her you can't find the original, but you remember the shot well. You are pretty booked at the moment, but if she could pay you___________, you'd be very happy to shoot her again whenever the time is good for her, you'll make the time.

I think by not using the photo you stand a very good chance of getting some positive networking word of mouth.
Jul 21 13 04:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eralar
Posts: 1,778
Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada


Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
A Google search resulting in a photog who uses the following agreement for TF shoots. Has anyone tried using something like this? Thoughts on its fairness?

http://www.pbjae.us/TFP%20Contract.pdf

Any release you have the model sign would cover you... from legal troubles. But not from drama, and certainly not losing a friend.

As was said, you have two choices:

1- always find a model whose limits are one step further than what you are shooting (in your case, a model who is ok with topless). This avoids having to keep your best picture from a shoot to yourself.

2- shoot close to the model's limits, and put in writing in your agreement that you will show the model each picture you wish to release BEFORE doing so. This ensures you are on the same page, and you will also remember to show her the picture before you actually spent time in post production for nothing.

But personally, I prefer having a separate release for TF. Any model who say she won't sing a release will not have pictures taken from me, unless she pays for the service.

Jul 21 13 04:44 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachel-Elise
Posts: 1,650
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


ALWAYS do a release. There's no guarantee that the photos will come out in a way that the model was not expecting. Heck, I've been doing this since dinosaurs roamed the earth, and I've had it happen to me once or twice recently. I had one lawyer friend telling me to sue the pants off of the guy, until I scanned and sent him the release. (ALL the lawyer's idea, not mine; I was sending him the release to show him that, really, I just needed to have been more specific in the usage of some particular photos, since the friend wouldn't shut up. tongue )

You never know when you'll get someone who isn't as balanced as me, though. Even with my release, I *might* have had a legal case, but I recognized that it was kind of my fault as well that this thing happened. Long story short, you need to watch out for yourself!
Jul 21 13 02:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3,000
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


Your relationships with models and other key resources are more important to your success that any single photo.  You need to revise your process with TFP shoot planing to discsuss with the model how the final photos are selected.
Jul 21 13 03:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RSH-Photography
Posts: 518
Austin, Texas, US


TF is all about cooperation. Don't post it.
Jul 21 13 03:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,636
Los Angeles, California, US


To avoid this happening in the future again, you COULD do the release thing... but, honestly speaking, much of this situation could happen again even with a release.

I tend to only shoot my "racier" (which isn't super racy) stuff with people I trust, and this is one of the reasons why. I have things that can't be posted due to work outside of modeling, and if people try to post those photos, it can be really bad news for me.

Try to think of a model's limits and why they are there so that if a photo is on the line, you can ask her BEFORE you edit it.

Now, if a model says a photo is just unflattering, I'd be inclined to leave it up-- this is bigger than that.


I have one basic rule on both sides of the lens: Don't be a dick. If a model wants something taken down and seems to have genuine concerns, especially if it was a trade shoot (but I assume my limits will be ok in a paid shoot as well, if I disclose them before the shoot), why not just take it down?
If a model thinks she looks ugly in a picture and threatens to sue, well, then she's being a dick.
If you don't get photos back to the models at all, dick move.

In cases like this, there may not be specific rules, but I don't think it's terribly hard to navigate.
Jul 21 13 03:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Allure Photography - MA
Posts: 88
Berlin, Massachusetts, US


ALWAYS!!!!! Get a Model Release. NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!
Jul 21 13 04:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,351
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


Allure Photography - MA wrote:
ALWAYS!!!!! Get a Model Release. NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!

What possible difference could that make.

Jul 21 13 04:23 pm  Link  Quote 
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