Colorado Model Amber wrote:
Did you shoot at his studio/house? If so I would show up asking in person. Otherwise not much you can do.

No you wouldn't..

John Jebbia wrote:
No you wouldn't..

On the other hand it would be amusing to thread to read about after .

However not recommended

Tina Zhou wrote:
So I shot with a fine art photographer in the beginning of July and I asked him how long will it take for him to send me the photos, he said about two weeks. He also forgot to give me a model release at the shoot and said he will email it to me after, which also never happened.

I am very careful with picking which photographer to work with, our discussion about the the type of photos we are trying to achieve was very clear, and the photo shoot was very professional and went well.

I emailed him two weeks ago asking about the photos nicely, no reply. I emailed him a few days ago on MM about the photos nicely as well. Read the message, never replied.

I understand lots of photographers take longer than they say they do when processing photos, but he's a fine art photographer and at the shoot he said he doesn't edit his photos much because he likes to keep them as natural as possible.

I'm frustrated because it has been almost two month and he's not responding. Even an update would help but he has not said anything. I am thinking about calling him, but I'm just worried he will do the same and won't pick up.

So models, when something like this happens, what do you do? What can we do to help ourselves?

You are in Canada and the law in Canada differ from those of us here in USA.  You might have more rights in Canada than you think..

http://www.capic.org/resources.html?scr … t+You+Sell

  Are you the creator or he is the creator?   Being a photographer does not automatically make him the creator, especially you didn't sign anything..
 
You might need to find out more about Canadian law regarding copy rights.  But from reading, sounds to me like he can't use the images either since you didn't sign anything that stated he is the creator.

Green Grape  wrote:
could be a result of the photographer not knowing what to do & too embarrassed to show you the photos

Highly doubtful, and far more likely a matter of biting off more than they can chew, ie, shooting more than they can edit.

Tina Zhou wrote:
What can we do to help ourselves?

if i was a good looking model, i would shoot myself. not kidding. i certainly wouldn't trust the majority of the XXXXXXX shooters here to get it right. italian guy and a handful of others, maybe. i do like the snickers bar idea.

Greg Kolack wrote:

Just as an FYI - in case you weren't aware - this actually works in your favor.

That depends on if she means that she didn't sign one or just didn't get a copy of the one she signed.

DougBPhoto wrote:
All I can tell you is that sometimes the stars align all wrong and it takes longer than it should.

Yes, in some cases it might be a lazy photographer, but in other cases there may be a slew of other reasons.

As for other work being done and shared first, I would not get caught up in such a red herring, just because one set of work was able to be completed really has no relevance to why another set of work is not completed.   Having images retouched is not like taking a number at the DMV where everything is done following a neat and orderly queue.

Sometimes things may be done according to paid work before trade, sometimes deadlines for publications come before other things, and sometimes work that is easier to knock out is done first and things that are more complex may get delayed/postponed.

Sometimes it just takes way longer than it should to get an image just right, way longer than anyone would expect.

Unfortunately things don't always go as planned, and if you think you're frustrated about delays, there may be photographers who are quite frustrated about that exact same too.

As for what to do... unfortunately photographers are not a homogeneous bunch, and what works for one photographer or one model does not mean it is going to work for others.

The advice I've heard most often from models is that it isn't worth worrying about and making yourself sick over, and trying to push too hard can backfire and make things worse.

I agree. Stuff happens.

Tina Zhou wrote:

now that you mention it, this might be of relevance. The casting call he posted was for lingerie/implied nude, and he said that it's fine if you are not comfortable doing implied nude, lingerie is fine, which is why I responded, and I did indicate to him I am only comfortable with lingerie before hand. He inboxed me inspiration photos and about half lingerie half implied. While preping for the shoot at the studio, we were talking about the type of photos we were going to do, and i said I'm only doing lingerie, then he says "well you know the type of photos i take, you have seen my portfolio" (his port was full of nude/implied nude, but I was thinking he was interested in trying out something else) My reply was "your casting says lingerie is fine" While shooting, he tried to convince me to do implied nude shots and I decided to do a few photos without a bra, because I did see that it is much more tasteful without a bra. When he asked if I was going to take off my underwear, and I refused.

The next day, he emailed me two untouched photos saying these are samples and asked me what i thought of those. In the email also said he needed a model tomorrow because another model was being flaky, and he asked me if I wanted to shoot again the following Thursday. I thanked him for the photos and said unfortunately I didn't see your email on time to schedule any shoots with you.

In my judgement, I don't think these reasons are enough to tick off a professional photographer, but with unreasonable people, you never know i guess.

Well, NOW you say you got 2 photos the next day. I think that is all you are going to get. I am betting those were the best.

Isis22 wrote:
Well, NOW you say you got 2 photos the next day. I think that is all you are going to get. I am betting those were the best.

Two unretouched sample photos are sufficient? Who did she work with?? Yanick Dery???

Working on photos can be very time-consuming, but the repercussions from unprofessional behavior should always be THE motivating factor, when it comes to building good relationships.

Seems to me like the photographer just wanted some free nude modeling, and got upset when things didn't go his way.
oh well..

MnPhoto wrote:

Two unretouched sample photos are sufficient? Who did she work with?? Yanick Dery???

Working on photos can be very time-consuming, but the repercussions from unprofessional behavior should always be THE motivating factor, when it comes to building good relationships.

Seems to me like the photographer just wanted some free nude modeling, and got upset when things didn't go his way.
oh well..

I never said it was sufficient or right. No contact since July after repeated attempts would seem to mean it's all she is going to get.

I do agree it sounds like the photographer had hopes the photo shoot or even a subsequent one would end up being nude.

Colorado Model Amber wrote:
I haven't read all the post and sorry to the OP BUT I guess my advice was "bad" as I have found out by others. Some called me "crazy" and said I had "issues" Also dissing my looks, my child and my motherhood isint needed because the advice I give. Gotta love facebook and other nice people who tell you about it. I don't appreciate the posting on facebook about the advice I have given on this post. Sorry again OP if I am hijacking your post but A lot of people who posted here posted on facebook about me. I feel bad that these people are jealous and insecure that they couldn't have contacted me personally but had to be unprofessional. Just cause one doesn't like the advice another gives doesn't mean you have to be rude. Thank you again to the people who gave me the facebook link.

Once again I just don't see anything wrong with a Model showing up asking for her pictures not "demanding" she took the time out of her busy schedule to do this shoot and the photographer is being unprofessional.

Im sure it was taken out of context on the internet :-)

It just sounds more "amusing" than it actually is

And you probably didn't mean it like stalk the poor guy till you get a response
type thing

Tina Zhou wrote:
So I shot with a fine art photographer in the beginning of July and I asked him how long will it take for him to send me the photos, he said about two weeks. He also forgot to give me a model release at the shoot and said he will email it to me after, which also never happened.

I am very careful with picking which photographer to work with, our discussion about the the type of photos we are trying to achieve was very clear, and the photo shoot was very professional and went well.

I emailed him two weeks ago asking about the photos nicely, no reply. I emailed him a few days ago on MM about the photos nicely as well. Read the message, never replied.

I understand lots of photographers take longer than they say they do when processing photos, but he's a fine art photographer and at the shoot he said he doesn't edit his photos much because he likes to keep them as natural as possible.

I'm frustrated because it has been almost two month and he's not responding. Even an update would help but he has not said anything. I am thinking about calling him, but I'm just worried he will do the same and won't pick up.

So models, when something like this happens, what do you do? What can we do to help ourselves?

Give up.  If he's not responding, it's unlikely he ever will.

Having not signed a release is good.  His usage is more limited than if you had signed one for whatever terms he'd have demanded.

-N-o-t-h-i-n-g- wrote:

Im sure it was taken out of context on the internet :-)

It just sounds more "amusing" than it actually is

And you probably didn't mean it like stalk the poor guy till you get a response
type thing

No, I didn't mean stalk the guy or "demand" her pictures but making a facebook post about me and dissing my child and motherhood was a bit much. But I wont make a big deal about it on this post sorry to the OP again.

NicoleNudes wrote:
Nothing really.

Chalk it up to experience.
Maybe something happened to the photos and he's too embarrassed to tell you? I had that happen before and I waited almost 3 years to finally hear back from the guy. Shit happens.


Can you PM me who it is? I'm curious since we're in the same area.

Will you also PM me as well? I have a feeling
I know who it is and I'm in your area.

I would wait a month and then all at once, email and call.
Or get a model manager to do it for you.
I've once asked my entertainment law attorney to do that for me.
I got an instant response, lol.

Honestly, this photographer is showing all the signs
of someone not upholding their end of the bargain.
The not responding several times (on top of no updates)
is a good indicator. Maybe he is suddenly ill?
Wait another month and then contact by every possible method,
If that fails, a last resort is perhaps tweet or FB post openly that its past the two weeks and you are still waiting for your images.
for your images from July ___ shoot.

You were right to always use polite professional language when communicating by any method. :-)


Good luck!

MnPhoto wrote:
Photographers I Have Worked With (Updated 08/29/2013)
Joe Schmoe MM# 123456 - Photoshoot 08/03/2013
John Doe.    MM# 999999 - Photoshoot 02/07/2012 - Still waiting for photos
Fig Newton   MM# 777777 - Photoshoot 07/02/1980
Etc.

MnPhoto wrote:
...looks somewhat professional, and a hell of a lot better than some rants you read on some people's profiles. No disqualifying or derogatory comments are necessary.

The OP has already tried to communicate, and it is obvious that she is now being ignored. Updating a list and moving on allows her to keep some of the dignity she may feel she lost by chasing after the photographer after he got what he wanted. If she gets photos, then she can remove the extra comment. There is no need to post that it took 6 months to get them.

I sit on the fence for a lot of issues, because I am a firm believer that there are always two sides to a story, but I also believe that if a photographer can't make the time to provide a single image after a TFP photoshoot, because s/he is a) too busy or b) not happy with the results
Then...
S/he should a) schedule less shoots OR b) practice a bit more by working with people that DO NOT expect photos in return for their time.

I couldn't disagree more! While this allows the model to warn other models who should stumble across her profile, to photographers this can be seen as more drama than the BBC.

I can only comment on how I see the list:
Firstly, I wonder about John Doe, is he withholding pictures or has the models
decided she/he now wants all/RAWs?
Secondly it could suggest anything that upsets the model could end up on the list.
Thirdly, why would I bother? I work with some amazing people that don't have lists so why try and work out what this list means?

I guess it might be because I'm from the school of "not washing my dirty knickers in public".

Far better to tell people you know rather than put it on a billboard so any Tom, Dick or Harriet can see.

Colorado Model Amber wrote:

No, I didn't mean stalk the guy or "demand" her pictures but making a facebook post about me and dissing my child and motherhood was a bit much. But I wont make a big deal about it on this post sorry to the OP again.

Oh , i am not aware of what may have been said on Facebook :'(

I just disagree with what you said about showing up at someones house .
not sure?  but they may have grounds to call the police or something
ekkkkk !!

And At the end of the day there's a lot worse that could happen than
not getting some photos :')

Colorado Model Amber wrote:
I haven't read all the post and sorry to the OP BUT I guess my advice was "bad" as I have found out by others. Some called me "crazy" and said I had "issues" Also dissing my looks, my child and my motherhood isint needed because the advice I give. Gotta love facebook and other nice people who tell you about it. I don't appreciate the posting on facebook about the advice I have given on this post. Sorry again OP if I am hijacking your post but A lot of people who posted here posted on facebook about me. I feel bad that these people are jealous and insecure that they couldn't have contacted me personally but had to be unprofessional. Just cause one doesn't like the advice another gives doesn't mean you have to be rude. Thank you again to the people who gave me the facebook link.

Once again I just don't see anything wrong with a Model showing up asking for her pictures not "demanding" she took the time out of her busy schedule to do this shoot and the photographer is being unprofessional.

Don't tell me, they started "I don't post in the forums because people are mean..." before they then rip into you and be extra mean?

They are not even worth your time since they don't have the balls to post where you made the original comment.

Tina Zhou wrote:
I'm sorry everyone, I forgot to mention it was TFP shoot. I kinda got the idea that I wasn't getting the photos, but it bugs me that someone has photographs of me that I do not have. I think what most likely happened is that he booked too many shoots and his post work is too backed up. He has a full time job and does photo shoots a couple of times a week in a rented studio. I have seen most of the photos on his camera at the shoot and they are not bad photos (I think I have pretty good judgement).

Thanks for the replies everyone, it has been very helpful. I think I need to be a lot more careful with whom I work with.

In that case, be patient. If he feels hounded he may just be ignoring you until he's ready. In the excitement it is easy to feel "hounded". He may just be a poor communicator.

Drop him a polite message every few weeks as a reminder. Keep an eye out for them going online anywhere too.

Darren Brade wrote:

Don't tell me, they started "I don't post in the forums because people are mean..." before they then rip into you and be extra mean?

They are not even worth your time since they don't have the balls to post where you made the original comment.

Thank you!

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:

You are in Canada and the law in Canada differ from those of us here in USA.  You might have more rights in Canada than you think..

http://www.capic.org/resources.html?scr … t+You+Sell

  Are you the creator or he is the creator?   Being a photographer does not automatically make him the creator, especially you didn't sign anything..
 
You might need to find out more about Canadian law regarding copy rights.  But from reading, sounds to me like he can't use the images either since you didn't sign anything that stated he is the creator.

That article is out of date. Last year the copyright laws were changed in Parliament. Since she is in Ontario here there is no right to likeness and the photographer is now ALWAYS  copyright holder (unless signed away), it does not help her.

Darren Brade wrote:
Don't tell me, they started "I don't post in the forums because people are mean..." before they then rip into you and be extra mean?

They are not even worth your time since they don't have the balls to post where you made the original comment.

You mean like here where they rip a bit into Amber

https://www.facebook.com/groups/164897816914923/

Darren Brade wrote:
I couldn't disagree more! While this allows the model to warn other models who should stumble across her profile, to photographers this can be seen as more drama than the BBC.

I can only comment on how I see the list:
Firstly, I wonder about John Doe, is he withholding pictures or has the models
decided she/he now wants all/RAWs?
Secondly it could suggest anything that upsets the model could end up on the list.
Thirdly, why would I bother? I work with some amazing people that don't have lists so why try and work out what this list means?

I guess it might be because I'm from the school of "not washing my dirty knickers in public".

Far better to tell people you know rather than put it on a billboard so any Tom, Dick or Harriet can see.

Again, there are always two sides to a story, hence my suggestion that she not post anything other than the fact that she is still waiting for her photos. I cannot emphasize enough that it should not involve superlatives, or judgements. Only the fact that she is still waiting for her photos. I can type that 20 times, and there will always be someone that assumes it is some form of blacklist. Again, the list will change as soon as the photos are received, but it should never say, "I never got the photos." It should only read: WHEN the shoot was done, and whether the model is STILL WAITING. That's it. People get busy, and sometimes forget. Such a list is a friendlier reminder than a barrage of annoying emails and phone calls. Showing up might work, if it is a studio, but what if the shoot took place at a residence, or a rented space??

Those secret blacklists are great as personal reminders (i.e., you remind yourself why you will never work with someone again), but they are much more severe, and more likely to be viewed as slander, if the photographer finds out about its existence due to a lost client.

A public pending list is a far friendlier way to remind everyone involved that, "Hey, we need to finish this thing."

Commonsense would dictate that a model that shoots often, would have a lot of entries that show she is still waiting for photos, because you are less likely to  get retouched images within a couple of weeks.

But (and a big one)...
if there is one entry that shows an unusually long period since the day of the photoshoot, then a different model might find it VERY helpful, because it opens a dialogue, before that new model finds herself in the same situation (i.e., waiting for an unusually long period of time).

It will allow him/her to do more of the "due diligence" that everybody seems to think others should do, with magic.

Darren Brade wrote:
...
Firstly, I wonder about John Doe, is he withholding pictures or has the models
decided she/he now wants all/RAWs?
....

Demanding raw files is one of those myths perpetuated by people that do not bother to explain to their clients and/or collaborators, the difference between thumbnails and high resolution images.

AdelaideJohn1967 wrote:

You mean like here where they rip a bit into Amber

https://www.facebook.com/groups/164897816914923/

Thanks for sharing, but no, I'm referring to people that send private massages to rip into someone because they know they can't do it on MM in public.

Jay Black wrote:
Know any hackers who could get insider the photographer's computer? Grab his most unflattering self-portraits, upload them to Facebook, Flickr and Instagram with the right keywords/tags (including his name and location). Then, when he comes crying to you all you have to say is, "But those are the photos you sent me. If you send me MY photos, I'll replace those you see online now."

So you'd encourage an illegal activity that could get the OP arrested. Looks good on TV until they get caught.

MnPhoto wrote:

Again, there are always two sides to a story, hence my suggestion that she not post anything other than the fact that she is still waiting for her photos. I cannot emphasize enough that it should not involve superlatives, or judgements. Only the fact that she is still waiting for her photos. I can type that 20 times, and there will always be someone that assumes it is some form of blacklist. Again, the list will change as soon as the photos are received, but it should never say, "I never got the photos." It should only read: WHEN the shoot was done, and whether the model is STILL WAITING. That's it. People get busy, and sometimes forget. Such a list is a friendlier reminder than a barrage of annoying emails and phone calls. Showing up might work, if it is a studio, but what if the shoot took place at a residence, or a rented space??

Those secret blacklists are great as personal reminders (i.e., you remind yourself why you will never work with someone again), but they are much more severe, and more likely to be viewed as slander, if the photographer finds out about it from a lost client.

A public pending list is a far friendlier way to remind everyone involved that, "Hey, we need to finish this thing."

Commonsense would dictate that a model that shoots often, would have a lot of entries that show she is still waiting for photos, because you are less likely to  get retouched images within a couple of weeks.

But (and a big one)...
if there is one entry that shows an unusually long period since the day of the photoshoot, then a different model might find it VERY helpful, because it opens a dialogue, before that new model finds herself in the same situation (i.e., waiting for an unusually long period of time).

It will allow him/her to do more of the "due diligence" that everybody seems to think others should do, with magic.


Demanding raw files is one of those myths perpetuated by people that do not bother to explain to their clients and/or collaborators, the difference between thumbnails and high resolution images.

I know you mean well, but this type of list needs maintenance and is open to misinterpretation, look at it this way:

Generally, when a shop keeper places an item in a shop window, his customers will assume that, that item is for sale.

The people making that assumption are not being difficult they are just following a set of rules. With MM, the profile is a person's "shop window" and the majority of people will make decisions based on that profile.

The list you mention may be useful for models looking at references from other models, but is that what a model's profile is used for? A model's profile should be aimed at enticing photographers to work with them, irrelevant lists about the status of their shoots which may or may not be up to date is not likely to encourage photographers to work with them.

When viewing someone's profile, one has to ask how their work would look on that person's profile should you ever decide to work with them.

Also the reality is those that are not interested in given photos to the models are hardly going to be looking at said profile thinking "I must hurry up".

Tina Zhou wrote:
...it bugs me that someone has photographs of me that I do not have. ...

If this bugs you, then professional modeling may not be your best career choice.

If you get hired for a real photo shoot for an advertising campaign or catalog work, it is unlikely that that you will receive copies of any images.  If any images do get used in a printed publication, then you can buy copies of that publication.  If the images get put on a billboard, or in-store display, you can go to it and snap a cell phone picture.  You will probably never see images that don't get used.


In the case of TFP where the photographer does not deliver, this sounds like a simple contract dispute.  You waived your normal fee in exchange for images.  He did not provide the images.  If this happened to me, I would consider going to small claims court to get my normal fee. The email record of the agreement would be very helpful in small claims court.  Of course, I live in the US and you are in Canada.  I don't know if Canada has an equivalent to our small claims courts.

I am not an attorney, and this is not legal advice.  For reliable legal advice talk to a local attorney.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:

You are in Canada and the law in Canada differ from those of us here in USA.  You might have more rights in Canada than you think..

http://www.capic.org/resources.html?scr … t+You+Sell

  Are you the creator or he is the creator?   Being a photographer does not automatically make him the creator, especially you didn't sign anything..
 
You might need to find out more about Canadian law regarding copy rights.  But from reading, sounds to me like he can't use the images either since you didn't sign anything that stated he is the creator.

As per our Copyright Act here where she & *I live, the photographer is the owner of the copyright in all circumstances. Bar none. With respect to his use of her likeness, statements like "he can't use the images either" are misleading quasi-truths. From a legal perspective, he requires a signed consent to use her likeness for commercial purposes up here in Canada. He didn't give her a copy, is what she stated. Who said she didn't sign one??? Let's pretend you assumed correct, then what? Does she call 911 saying the big bad photographer is using her likeness? She's gotta spend some $, and show the courts where and how it was for commercial purposes. Not on MM, fB, or any other social networking site. Not in his Book, or on his studio's walls. Commercially. A real pain in the cock!

OP: I feel for ya, please don't misunderstand my position. When I modelled, I was *very selective of whom I posed for. As a shooter, I guarantee pix in 21 days or less from any unpaid-shoots. I do not 'pay' in images - but we all have our own approaches & beliefs IMHO, 4-weeks/30-days is reasonable & acceptable. 6-weeks is long, but still acceptable. I'd say chalk it up to a learning experience & move onkeep a private shit-list, and give it to other models who ask.

Ðanny
http://dbi.carbonmade.com
http://www.dbiphotography.com
Posted by DBIphotography via his CrackBerry®

"The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius."
~Oscar Wilde

Darren Brade wrote:
I know you mean well, but this type of list needs maintenance and is open to misinterpretation, look at it this way:

Generally, when a shop keeper places an item in a shop window, his customers will assume that, that item is for sale.

The people making that assumption are not being difficult they are just following a set of rules. With MM, the profile is a person's "shop window" and the majority of people will make decisions based on that profile.

The list you mention may be useful for models looking at references from other models, but is that what a model's profile is used for? A model's profile should be aimed at enticing photographers to work with them, irrelevant lists about the status of their shoots which may or may not be up to date is not likely to encourage photographers to work with them.

When viewing someone's profile, one has to ask how their work would look on that person's profile should you ever decide to work with them.

Also the reality is those that are not interested in given photos to the models are hardly going to be looking at said profile thinking "I must hurry up".

Maintenance is a big factor! We all know that ignorance is no excuse for breaking the the law, but laziness is just as inexcusable.

The points you bring up are exactly the reasoning behind such a "progress list."

Although some people think the Profile is a good forum for a diatribe (my profile comes across as a rant, because I got the SAME QUESTIONS over and over), I for one, view Profile Content (the Bio, not the portfolio images) as a source for the information I may need right after I view the images.

It is clear obvious that unlike an official storefront, the text content of a MM profile does not follow any specific format or rules, therefore the storefront analogy does not work here.

I would rather a profile not talk about "walks on the beach" or "my favorite color is blue." Even statements about bubbly personality, or getting along with people are irrelevant, because they are highly subjective.

I just want to know three things:
1. Do you meet the criteria (looks, measurements) for the project?
2. Are you disciplined/reliable.
3. Will you be able to communicate efficiently, or at least not drop off the side of the planet on the day of the shoot?

Everything else is irrelevant, and how long you've been waiting for photos from others is none of my concern.

NOW, if I were deciding whether to schedule a modeling gig with a photographer, and I wanted to research his reputation, it would be nice to find information from people with whom s/he has worked, in a very objective way.

Does s/he have a habit of stating "2-4 weeks" when s/he really means 2-4 months?

Information like that is useful! Especially when you have a very short window of free time to update/start a portfolio. Models do not need photos that show what they looked like 3-4 months ago. You know?

There is nothing worse than reading photographers blame models for not doing their "due diligence", when they turn around and tell other models to keep quiet about problem photograhers.

Communicate directly (model to model) you say?

People take forever to reply to emails, do you think they will spend the necessary time and effort to give an unbiased response in a useful message? Most people will say, "Was ok" and move on.

A phonecall? That is the worst type of reference, because it is rushed, and is usually based on feelings, and unsubstantiated opinions. Not facts.

Again, no matter how many times I state it, not all LISTS are BLACKLISTS, even if some people have predispositions against them.