B R E N N A N wrote:

Eliza, do you get paid per word that you post in the forums? Sweet tap dancing Jesus Christ. How do you even have time to model for the likes of AP with time it takes for you to write your novellas on here?

It's easy for her.  She is an academic working on her PhD. 

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

It's easy for her.  She is an academic working on her PhD. 

Ah, that bit must have gotten lost in her life story on the MM forums. Or maybe I was so busy modeling and worrying with my own academic career I missed it.

B R E N N A N wrote:

Ah, that bit must have gotten lost in her life story on the MM forums. Or maybe I was so busy modeling and worrying with my own academic career I missed it.

I saw it.  We also sometimes exchange PMs.

B R E N N A N wrote:
Ah, that bit must have gotten lost in her life story on the MM forums. Or maybe I was so busy modeling and worrying with my own academic career I missed it.

I can type quickly and I don't enter discussions just to make the kind of one line put downs that is usual in debate here.

I sift through data looking for correlation. After an hour one needs a ten minute break. Few MM posts take me longer than that.

On this particular case I think the model in question has more ability in her little finger in terms of the verb 'model' than some of the formulaic and derivative commercial work slick as it is on many ports here. Yes that work pays the best, has possibly the greatest technical craft, and appears to illicit hero worship form lesser photographers who aspire to that. But one could easily say it's tomorrow's chip paper. I don't see it that way personally but it does get said. In any case the VAST majority of photographers here will never get near that work but that doesn't mean they won't get to work for smaller cleints be they regional mags or niche mags or small fashion or local product that needs models, or just do weddings and use models just for personal creative projects that may eventually get their work in galleries or some commercial clients looking for something left field.

Because I don't do that kind of high level modelling when those guys think that is all there is I feel I should say something. Sure most of us will never make the money agency models make but there is a whole range of art photographey and smaller fashion/boutique work, niche modelling like gothic.retro clothing etc where the model's own image may be important as their cutomers identify with it, fitting, fitness, trade fair promo , performance, burlesque, even glamour. There is even the dreaded 'internet fetish' modelling many of us do a bit of because the pay is okand you don't have to do anything overtly sexual. Be it latex dominatrix or whatever. Many of us don't turn our nose up at that varied work. I'd rather do that because it pays than aspire to somewhere I was realistic enough not to even consider anyway. never entered my head to think I would be in fashion mags. So nothing actually needs to change. There is plenty of work without aspiring to such unrealistic goals that clearly do have height restrictions and it's hard enough even for taller models. Not like I haven't had some interesting experiences and worked alongside people who are also at the top of their tree in different fields that use models.
And I have worked with photographers I regard as some of the best; especially Marco Sanges. People should look at the models he uses. Character models so his images are packed with expressive gesture and pose.

The fact I have been able to give many citations, cases, in depth personal experience of a wide variety of genres it shows there isn't just that commercial and fashion work about.

You yourself in fact are not tall yet also have had success. I had a 5ft 3" model add me recently who has been extremely succesful. I think it would be more interesting to hear those stories and how they manage than just some lofty commercial/advertising/fashion photography simply reciting the 'you've got no chance' mantra because they are ignorant of the bulk of paid journeyman modelling work.

When I modelled alongside top agency fashion models they were surprised how full my diary was when they saw it and I showed them some of the things I was doing. Of course I wasn't on that big pay they are on. So I had to do lots of it. It wasn't difficult to find and I knew plenty of models who were much shorter than I just as busy. Sure in a big city like London you get more. But Denver isn't a village.

The idea that the only way models can make money is to get nude is a fallacy. It is not borne out by paid casting ratios in most areas, and it can end up costing you work if shooting dodgy stuff. Fine Art nude or regular glamour may be fine but appear in a porn mag or on similar internet site and you won't get any of the other work. A small boutique who may pay you £150 for doing their evening event will soon stop using you if they hear from a client you've done that kind of thing. In addition if a shorter model is happy to do nude then the first place to start would be Art colleges and Institutions. The pay is good work regular and actually you could live on that alone. Hundreds if not thousands of such models just in London. You certainly don't have to do tf with photographers for one offs UNLESS it benefits your port to get you that art school work or a specialist travelling nude model port. The Op also says she doesn't mind that work but wanted to know what other options there were. So we heard she can't get into fashion/commercial at any high level that's fine. But there are plenty of other possibilities and I know there are hundreds of photographers in her area that could benefit from such a model.

It is a crazy thing really that I have to go on at length. Even now the number of photographers who follow this mantra of no work for non agency standard models yet have 'fit' ticked on their genre interests shows the level of ignorance about a large area of modelling. Yeah and don't think I haven't seen some of that now corrected
So yes some of it is repeated over and over but clearly still doesn't get through though that is a prime example of where at least some have realised.

It is a great shame more models don't contribute. I know why they don't they feel intimidated and the nature of work they do sneered at - they tell me and urge me on as clearly I am not bothered by forum bullies. But a great many shorter models are very successful at a far higher level than I even doing commercial print work. It would be nice for some of them to input. But while unsolicited critique, snide comments and fear of being ostracised exist here they will not. I am trying my best to help overcome that. MM has been ok for me to network and get some work, and for many talented individuals from designers to MUAs to hair stylists to photographers to models to retouchers the experiences have all been great. But a minority here far more vocal than I even if less verbose are determined to runi the credibility of models working here and the object for many is to destroy new model confidence to suggest all that is open for them is nude work and they had better do it for free for top photographers and that other lesser  photographers willing to pay them are just pervy. I only ever had a problem here actually with one such 'top fashion  photographer' who ended up in prison for attacking other MM models. Most what people call gwcs have been charming and serious about learning their craft. They can't afford agency models and so they are perfectly entitled to see out the services of freelance models without either being insulted. As for nude photography itself the majority of photographers are sincere and like artists seeking to make beautiful images of the human form. But beware because some of it may involved things like touching yourself, vibrators and girl on girl etc. Nothing wrong with that either when done tatsefully but it can severely limit what other modelling work is available and possibly future employment prospects. It is this in particular I am accutely aware that some models are bing pushed into with the 'well nobody else will pay you darling because you are too short' deal. In fact, I have already cited a Colordao educational instutution who employ nude models for legit photography classes, and like art colleges if nude work is ok with you go that route and seek photographers who value what you do as a model because you can model, not see you as meat. Why I take on some of the big shot photographers here is not because they are in that category of seeing shorter models as only good for nude work (because they will use taller ones for their fashion/commercial) but because they fuel the kind of seedy photographers that we have all had approaches from through that mantra. Which is complete nonsense. There is plenty of journeyman work for shorter models if they are good, that is not nude, if you use your brain.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
No.

My point, Eliza, is that with their length your posts are entirely too hard to digest. You would be better served by being concise. The internet has the attention span of a gnat, and your posts (not matter how accurate or inaccurate) get lost in your verbosity desire to hear yourself talk.

B R E N N A N wrote:
My point, Eliza, is that with their length your posts are entirely too hard to digest. You would be better served by being concise. The internet has the attention span of a gnat, and your posts (not matter how accurate or inaccurate) get lost in your verbosity desire to hear yourself talk.

Actually Brennan you are not obliged to read them and neither is anyone else.
So I suggest you ignore them if you find them verbose.

I am not interested in speaking to those with the attention span of a gnat. Sure many here do. Many come into debate just to make snide comments and troll rather than attempt to answer the op.

And I am the only person in this thread to have produced evidence as usual. You by contrast have not and just entered the thread to make personal insult.

B R E N N A N wrote:

My point, Eliza, is that with their length your posts are entirely too hard to digest. You would be better served by being concise. The internet has the attention span of a gnat, and your posts (not matter how accurate or inaccurate) get lost in your verbosity desire to hear yourself talk.

I had a college teacher who just drone and on and on.    Smart dude but... In another class a teacher encouraged us to be brief.   There's a certain amount of narcissism in those who have to take over conversations and write novel length replies to simple things.   Be concise.   Be brief if at all possible.   You just lose your audience when you're not and what's the point if no one pays attention.   I know for a fact there are people who ignore me because of my sometimes long winded replies.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I've been curious about this.   I've been watching the Denver area Craigslist ads.   There isn't a lot of models wanted ads in their talent section.   What is there seems to be primarily TF and nude work.   The rest seems to be thinly disguised escort or pornographic work.  http://denver.craigslist.org/tlg/    For example one ad is agency needs models.   You need a car and cell phone.   I wonder what the work consists of?   Height probably doesn't matter though.   That isn't to say what work for petite models is available in Denver, CO.   I just don't know how models would find that work.

Denver, CO has a unemployment dept. like most cities.   Not seeing any modeling or promo work there.   To be fair there are promotional agencies there like Mile High:   http://www.promotionsmilehigh.com/   I have family who live in Denver and my understanding is these agencies have a lot more people then work.   Not sure but I don't recall the OP mentioning promo work but she could start at Mile High.   Craigslist seems to be a bust.

Sorry Tony I know you don't like reading but if you did take a few minutes to do so you could save yourself some wasted time. I already gave you one denver agency for promo models and here are a few more:
http://nxtmodel.com/
http://pushmodels.com/denver-colorado-promo-models.php
http://www.affinitytalent.com/index2.html
http://www.modelmachine.com/denver-promotional-models/
http://www.donnabaldwin.com/index.asp
http://www.emmegirls.com/Promo_Models_Denver.php
http://www.models4tradeshows.com/cities … onstrators
http://www.attackmarketing.net/Denver_P … al_Models/

I could go on there are lots more.

Including of course the one you cite too.

You would also if you had read the op have seen she has already done so promo modelling.

Craigslist - well that's a mixed bag isn't it. There appear to be sometimes ok jobs on it but a lot of dodgy stuff yes I agree. I don't know anyone who uses craiglist or similar UK listings to find work. Whatever they do. I have told you before - while one may get some jobs from MM castings most work comes to the model direct once she has some references. It is NOT hard once you have a few good reputation. I have certainly never had to look on craigslist and the like. It is getting the work in the first place that is more tricky; and there is no substitute for pounding the street and the internet, sending emails and giving out z cards,  and following up every enquiry with a pleasant attitude. So for example - with fit model jobs most of them are on the company websites. That is how fit models find generally work not craiglist. Then just finding stuff on google:
http://303cycling.com/node/5025 Two fit models for a cycle wear company. The shorter model required was 5ft 5" so no good to the op but certainly not an agency standard height so open to someone (except its filled). I told you everybody making clothing needs fit models. Yes not all cities have a lot of fashion manufacturing but they will have some, and one can always apply for jobs miles away. Fit models tend to be employed full time and the pay is good so worth moving for. Some have height restrictions. But not all. As I also showed you Top Shop one of the largest fashion retailers in the UK was advertising for 5ft 4" fit models.

Furthermore I know UK models who have modelled in Aspen - and one of them is only 5ft 4" . So places like that often have events and seasonal work for models from far further afield than just locally. If UK models are prepared to go to Aspen to work then I don't think it unreasonable for a Denver model to.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I had a college teacher who just drone and on and on.    Smart dude but... In another class a teacher encouraged us to be brief.   There's a certain amount of narcissism in those who have to take over conversations and write novel length replies to simple things.   Be concise.   Be brief if at all possible.   You just lose your audience when you're not and what's the point if no one pays attention.   I know for a fact there are people who ignore me because of my sometimes long winded replies.

Yes quite right I have wasted enough time on you as you don't read the posts as if you had you would not continue to repeatedly state your beliefs when given evidence which proves them false. You have no wish to learn how a shorter model gets work but some shorter models may. So I don't make the posts for you. However; you aren't making yourself look very clever by failing to read or even using google before you make your fallacious statements.

Of course you can say I am a narcissist but that is just more personal attack because really you have nothing else to counter with. And ad hominem is a fallacy too. Of course I know that because I listened to my long winded professor....

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Actually Brennan you are not obliged to read them and neither is anyone else.
So I suggest you ignore them if you find them verbose.

I am not interested in speaking to those with the attention span of a gnat. Sure many here do. Many come into debate just to make snide comments and troll rather than attempt to answer the op.

And I am the only person in this thread to have produced evidence as usual. You by contrast have not and just entered the thread to make personal insult.

But your evidence was buried in your personal drivel, in which the OP (who has long since abandoned this thread) would have to sift through to glean any actual information, doing a disservice to her. Her, who is your audience.

Also, I have worked the Denver market extensively, and it sucks. It is not sustainable market for full time modeling, or even making decent side money. So there's that.

Christopher Hartman wrote:
My head hurts.

Nattering nabobs of negativism.
(Spiro T.Agnew)