Model
Jamahl Brandon
Posts: 40
Kansas City, Missouri, US
I did a photo shoot with a tog in California. He was great, I really liked his work. I've also done shoots with other togs in the past. However, in 5 years...The 1st 2 togs I shot with were really good too.
The difference is, the togs back then when I 1st started shooting were giving me entire CD's, or atleast allowing me to pick and choose which photos I kept.
On my last several photo shoots, including my latest...I didn't get to see any of the raw images and choose my own. I'm kinda igged about it, because I know there's some better shots in there, but I couldn't even choose them. He handed me a few of the ones he picked, and that was that.
I went thru a 'dry spell' of not doing any photo shoots for a year or 2. Once I realized I'd be waiting days to see any of the photos and have no choice of picking, I remembered why I stopped shooting. I hate leaving a shoot with no photos, and even worse getting sent photos that I didn't choose.
Maybe scam is a harsh word, but you kind of feel that way after the session sometimes. I've even paid a photographer before, and he scammed me out of an entire CD, only sending me his picks.
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Well I think they can be a learning tool, and I do feel things have changed over the years. However, if the images are that important, then just hire someone. Andrew Thomas Evans www.andrewthomasevans.com
Photographer
Trisha May Photography
Posts: 308
Colchester, Connecticut, US
Somebody please tell me what a "tog" and "Igged" means cuse i'm lost 
Photographer
KeithD3
Posts: 1493
Saint Joseph, Missouri, US
The best thing to do is make sure you and the photographer on the same page before you show up for the shoot. There are still photographers who will give you a CD of all the images and photographers who will let you pick a few to be retouched. If those are your expectations you need to be up front about it so you don't end up scheduling a shoot with me or others like me.
If we shoot together you will get 5 or so images selected and retouched by me unless we agreed to something different when we were setting up the shoot.
Just put in your profile what your expectations are. I think the only sound you will hear after that will be crickets or beginners.
Photographer
Another Italian Guy
Posts: 3281
Bath, England, United Kingdom
KeithDewey3 wrote:
Just put in your profile what your expectations are. I think the only sound you will hear after that will be crickets or beginners. Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
If the images are that important, then just hire someone. +1
OP, maybe all these "togs" are getting "igged" that you don't seem to know the word "photographer".
Man, I've "igged out" about that a few times myself... 
Just my $0.02 etc. etc.
Photographer
WildEye Studio
Posts: 659
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Yes, modeling has changed. Models still expect everything from a photographer for TF. Now you get what you pay for. Photographers are plentiful at all skill levels. Although, good photographers are now able to charge because models want good photos and are finding the bargin brands aren't good enough. My suggestion is to find one who's work you like. Negotiate a price, and get photos that have what you're looking for.
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
Communication is key. *Before* you agree to a shoot, ask the photographer how many retouched images you can expect, and also ask if you can go through them with the photographer at the end of the shoot (if that's what you really want). If they say no, you can move on and find someone else willing to meet your terms. OR, you can pay to get what you want.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
It's very important to hash out an agreement that details the terms of the shoot--what each party will provide and when--before the shoot takes place. If you don't like the terms, don't do the shoot. That will alleviate a great deal of disappointments all around. And if you are disappointed, you have in writing proof that the other party is wrong.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
MelissaAnn wrote:
Communication is key. *Before* you agree to a shoot, ask the photographer how many retouched images you can expect, and also ask if you can go through them with the photographer at the end of the shoot (if that's what you really want). If they say no, you can move on and find someone else willing to meet your terms. OR, you can pay to get what you want. Argh, I was just seconds late. Now it looks like I'm copying your exceptionally wise post.
Photographer
REMOVED
Posts: 1546
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Trisha May Photography wrote:
Somebody please tell me what a "tog" and "Igged" means cuse i'm lost A tog is any form of loose fitting clothing, it is Latin, from the Roman toga,
The "shooting with a tog" is only possible if it is worn.
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 3757
Belmont, California, US
KeithDewey3 wrote:
If we shoot together you will get 5 or so images selected and retouched by me unless we agreed to something different when we were setting up the shoot. +1
I am very open to "something different", just needs to be worked out beforehand for TF.
Model
Cantaloupe
Posts: 4
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
What are the reasons for a photographer to NOT let the model go through the photos and let him/her choose?
Photographer
ARA Photo
Posts: 487
Mountain View, California, US
How do you 'know there are some better shots'?
It's usually in the photographer's interest to provide the best images they shot, everyone is happier that way. If you saw some poses on the camera screen you liked more, then perhaps on a larger monitor they were out of focus. There is a big difference between that little screen and an image fit for print. If I were the photographer then I'd be happy for you to ask me. Have you tried that?
Photographer
Images By OD
Posts: 23
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
I think the reason that you are running into that is the photographers want control over what images are made public with their name on it.
When I started, I would give people who worked TFP with me a CD with all the un-retouched photos and ask them to select 1-2 per hour we shot, based n our prior agreement. What I was then seeing is my images posted with no retouching. These pictures did not reflect the quality of work I want out there with my name on it, so I now pick the photos and retouch them prior to giving any copies.
If a model asked me if they could make selections for me to retouch, I would be okay with that as long as I did the retouching before providing copies of the images.
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
Bryant wrote:
I did a photo shoot with a tog in California. He was great, I really liked his work. I've also done shoots with other togs in the past. However, in 5 years...The 1st 2 togs I shot with were really good too.
The difference is, the togs back then when I 1st started shooting were giving me entire CD's, or atleast allowing me to pick and choose which photos I kept.
On my last several photo shoots, including my latest...I didn't get to see any of the raw images and choose my own. I'm kinda igged about it, because I know there's some better shots in there, but I couldn't even choose them. He handed me a few of the ones he picked, and that was that.
I went thru a 'dry spell' of not doing any photo shoots for a year or 2. Once I realized I'd be waiting days to see any of the photos and have no choice of picking, I remembered why I stopped shooting. I hate leaving a shoot with no photos, and even worse getting sent photos that I didn't choose.
Maybe scam is a harsh word, but you kind of feel that way after the session sometimes. I've even paid a photographer before, and he scammed me out of an entire CD, only sending me his picks. are you shooting with better photographers over time?
because giving a cd of images is a very very amateur approach
allowing the model to make selects is also not as typical for higher end photographers
I will observe this - one or two really superb images from a higher level photographer are worth a ton more than a cd full of more average or mediocre images.
I will also observe that the more experienced the model I work with, the more likely she is to ask for me to send what I consider to be the best image per look. You can't use a ton of images and you want the best. If you have chosen to trade with a photographer that was based on the quality of their portfolio which not only reflects their skills but also their taste in images....
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
Bryant wrote:
I did a photo shoot with a tog in California. He was great, I really liked his work. I've also done shoots with other togs in the past. However, in 5 years...The 1st 2 togs I shot with were really good too.
The difference is, the togs back then when I 1st started shooting were giving me entire CD's, or atleast allowing me to pick and choose which photos I kept.
On my last several photo shoots, including my latest...I didn't get to see any of the raw images and choose my own. I'm kinda igged about it, because I know there's some better shots in there, but I couldn't even choose them. He handed me a few of the ones he picked, and that was that.
I went thru a 'dry spell' of not doing any photo shoots for a year or 2. Once I realized I'd be waiting days to see any of the photos and have no choice of picking, I remembered why I stopped shooting. I hate leaving a shoot with no photos, and even worse getting sent photos that I didn't choose.
Maybe scam is a harsh word, but you kind of feel that way after the session sometimes. I've even paid a photographer before, and he scammed me out of an entire CD, only sending me his picks. He didn't scam you unless he specifically stated in advance that you'd get a CD of all images and he failed to deliver.
Most experienced photographers don't give out CDs of the entire shoot. It could very well be that when you first started modeling, you were shooting with noob photographers who'd do rookie stuff in order to get models to work with them. It may be that you're now working with some photographers who aren't so indiscriminate about the images to which they give you access.
Not all photographers select your images for you, so negotiate that ahead of the shoot.
Model
Evie Wolfe
Posts: 1201
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom
The days of contact sheets are long gone! The status quo now is for the photographer to pick the images they like and send you a few.
If you don't like that, you can negotiate your own terms prior to agreeing to shoot - I don't see a use for having all the photographs from a shoot, but I can see the argument for being allowed to pick a couple of images that you consider helpful to your book for the photographer to edit if it is a trade shoot - some photographers will not be happy with that, some will be - there are always more photographers, and there are always more models.
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
Cantaloupe wrote:
What are the reasons for a photographer to NOT let the model go through the photos and let him/her choose? Some (not all) models don't have the slightest clue as to what is a good and usable image and what isn't. Some (not all) models don't know the difference between the needs of a model's portfolio and the needs of a photographer's portfolio.
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Fotografica Gregor wrote:
because giving a cd of images is a very very amateur approach
allowing the model to make selects is also not as typical for higher end photographers ???
I've given all the images out before to those who have an interest in retouching or who want to do it themselves. Dosent hurt me as I do the one or two images I want and the model can do as many as they want. Win, win.
I let all clients and most models select the images. That's what they pay for, makes my life easier, and makes them happy. Granted I just do model portfolios and a lot of headshots around here, so maybe I'm not that "high end".
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8283
Tucson, Arizona, US
Orca Bay Images wrote:
Some (not all) models don't have the slightest clue as to what is a good and usable image and what isn't. Some (not all) models don't know the difference between the needs of a model's portfolio and the needs of a photographer's portfolio. But some photographers don't know the needs of a model's portfolio.
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
Bryant wrote:
I hate leaving a shoot with no photos Another reason not to give you any and all images from the shoot: you're willing to take and use an unedited, unproofed image. Worse: You might decide you can edit the image into shape. The latter scenario is a nightmare for photographers who give a damn about their work... seeing a mangled image with the photographer getting credit for it.
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
Alabaster Crowley wrote:
But some photographers don't know the needs of a model's portfolio. True. And those photographers have no business helping new models build their portfolios.
Photographer
Muskopf Photography
Posts: 278
Dayton, Ohio, US
Paying clients pick their own photos.
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8283
Tucson, Arizona, US
Muskopf Photography wrote:
Paying clients pick their own photos. I've been allowed to pick my own photos, by a photographer that does "paid work only," in a trade shoot.
Every single case is different.
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
I let all clients and most models select the images. That's what they pay for, makes my life easier, and makes them happy. Granted I just do model portfolios and a lot of headshots around here, so maybe I'm not that "high end". As a standard practice for models and other TF participants, I weed out the total misses, the blah images and the duplicates (unless the duplicates have subtle differences that might be significant to the model), then set up an online rough proofs album of the best 40-80. I'll sometimes offer recommendations, but the model is free to choose from the album. Having the album online allows the model to view and select at their leisure, and review with friends, if they wish.
I've had only a couple of models wash their hands of the selection process and have me make the picks.
Photographer
Top Gun Digital
Posts: 1528
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Bryant wrote:
I went thru a 'dry spell' of not doing any photo shoots for a year or 2. Once I realized I'd be waiting days to see any of the photos and have no choice of picking, I remembered why I stopped shooting. I hate leaving a shoot with no photos, and even worse getting sent photos that I didn't choose.
Maybe scam is a harsh word, but you kind of feel that way after the session sometimes. I've even paid a photographer before, and he scammed me out of an entire CD, only sending me his picks. You should get whatever you bargained for. You can't just agree to a trade shoot and leave it at that. You and the photographer have to agree before the shoot on what you're going to receive and the time frame in which you'll receive it. Some photographers give a CD of all the images, some let the model choose what they want and some give the model whatever they pick without consulting the model. It's ridiculous to say that a photographer scammed you because you didn't get what you expected when you never made your expectations clear to begin with. Why would you assume you'll get a CD of all the images unless that was agreed to prior to the shoot.
Photographer
joe man
Posts: 39
San Marcos, Texas, US
KeithDewey3 wrote:
If we shoot together you will get 5 or so images selected and retouched by me unless we agreed to something different when we were setting up the shoot. YUP! No way do I give over a CD of all images . .. What???? .... and let everybody know that I can take really crappy shots too .. or worst yet .. have a model select the worst of the worse and then let on that I shot it. No thanks.
At least cull the crappy ones ..... ad as for the CD .. heck no.. I prefer to post to a folder and they can download what they want.
It really also is a workflow thing. I pick the image(s). I pick the degree of editing, and I thus can control my time into it. Elsewise, I get models seeing an image and then wanting me to do this or do that etc .. all "for free" right? ... because "they" are the ones that "really" bring the only value to the shoot.
OK Ill stop now ....
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14689
Los Angeles, California, US
Paying for a shoot doesn't mean you get a CD of all the images.
Once I started working with great photographers, MAYBE 1 in 20 lets me go through all the images.
It actually kind of frustrates me... As a full time model, finding time to sift through 500 photos and pick the ones I'd like is stressful. I much prefer to work with people (whether paid or trade) who I trust to pick the right photos.
Model
Josie Lee
Posts: 768
San Diego, California, US
Fotografica Gregor wrote:
are you shooting with better photographers over time?
because giving a cd of images is a very very amateur approach
allowing the model to make selects is also not as typical for higher end photographers
I will observe this - one or two really superb images from a higher level photographer are worth a ton more than a cd full of more average or mediocre images.
I will also observe that the more experienced the model I work with, the more likely she is to ask for me to send what I consider to be the best image per look. You can't use a ton of images and you want the best. If you have chosen to trade with a photographer that was based on the quality of their portfolio which not only reflects their skills but also their taste in images.... This.
Really spectacular photographers whose portfolios you love,
can generally be trusted to choose the best images.
From my rare TF shoots, I don't want more than two images per look.
Quality over quantity. I usually get anywhere from 3-10 edited images
per TF shoot. I would hate to go over 500 images from a shoot. A photographer would
also be a better judge of which images will print nicely in an editorial.
I've loved images and wanted images that I did not realize were out of focus, etc.
Many photographers because they also trust me, offer to let me take a glance over the images on dropbox that were
uploaded in case I want to request particular shots. That is always appreciated by me but
I trust my TF photographers so much that I sometimes I don't even look. Lol!
IMHO
P.S. You can outline your stipulations prior to TF shoots
that you want X number of finished images within X number of months from date of shoot. Then go with the photographers who will accommodate this.
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 11726
Olney, Maryland, US
KeithDewey3 wrote:
The best thing to do is make sure you and the photographer on the same page before you show up for the shoot. There are still photographers who will give you a CD of all the images and photographers who will let you pick a few to be retouched. If those are your expectations you need to be up front about it so you don't end up scheduling a shoot with me or others like me. WildEye Studio wrote:
Models still expect everything from a photographer for TF. MelissaAnn wrote:
Communication is key. Brian Diaz wrote:
It's very important to hash out an agreement that details the terms of the shoot... It goes on and on!
Photographer
Tim Little Photography
Posts: 11771
Wilmington, Delaware, US
I love to shoot TFCD but there are some things that are impossible. I cannot edit raw images and give them to a model at the end of a shoot. It takes too long. I make all of this clear before the shoot and explain what shooting raw means. But, I do edit shortly after the shoot and it is common for me to have at least two or three that I can email to the model that evening. There is more to making a photograph than just firing the shutter.
Photographer
The Dave
Posts: 8848
Ann Arbor, Michigan, US
Models can pick or I can, I leave that up to them to decide.
Model
LizzyB
Posts: 2225
Rochester, New York, US
personally i'd rather have a few edited pics than a bunch of nearly-worthless raw photos. of course you want to make sure you are familiar and appreciative of the photographer's editing style.
Photographer
Weathers Photography
Posts: 29
Oxford, Alabama, US
You know if photographers are called togs, maybe models should be called moes. Respect goes both ways.
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 28745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
If you can't trust the photographer to pick the best images for the both of you why are you working with them in the first place? You either like the work they've chosen exhibit or you don't.
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
???
I've given all the images out before to those who have an interest in retouching or who want to do it themselves. Dosent hurt me as I do the one or two images I want and the model can do as many as they want. Win, win.
I let all clients and most models select the images. That's what they pay for, makes my life easier, and makes them happy. Granted I just do model portfolios and a lot of headshots around here, so maybe I'm not that "high end".
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com Well then you are one of probably not a few exceptions :p your work is excellent and if your business plan is to shoot model portfolios and you are comfortable releasing a mass of images and allowing the models to determine what is out there in circulation then that is fine and it must be working for you.
Models in my experience, including the very best, are not always the best judge of which images to release. I am perfectly happy for really good models to have a flick through all of the images we shot from a proofing gallery on my website. Some like to do this as a learning tool, some like to be sure that if there are a favourite image or two from the shoot that they have opportunity to request them. I am fine with that -
However I don't shoot model portfolios as a rule. My work is primarily commercial, and for self promotion and a bit of a hobby really, I shoot editorial work. I always release the tears and all of my selects to the models and do not mind if they make a few selections. This is however a different game altogether than shooting portfolios -
I personally would not take on a trade shoot for portfolio work, which is of course the situation being discussed by the OP....
Photographer
KungPaoChic
Posts: 4221
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
I don't shoot unpaid tests but when I shoot paid tests, headshots, portraits or comp cards I upload the images to a password protected proof gallery and let the clients pick images -- that way they can share images with agent or whomever they want.
From there they send me the file numbers of the images they want retouched but it is all spelled out in writing beforehand.
For personal projects and editorials the models let me pick the images.
Hasn't been a problem for me but if you are clear beforehand it works a lot better IMO.
I am not suggesting that my way is the only way it is just what works for me.
IMO if you aren't able to get what you need TF it might be time to pay for it but make sure you know what you are getting before the shoot takes place.
Photographer
eybdoog
Posts: 2647
New York, New York, US
OP: two things.
1. We are called "photographers", not "tog's".
2. Every individual that you approach to collaborate with will have a different standard. There is no set guarantee of images from testing or otherwise, only what you and the photographer agree to prior to working together on a shoot.
My advice, man up, quit being butt hurt, and hire someone out right to photograph you that you respect if you really want a certain thing for your portfolio. Otherwise, prepare to negotiate and hear the word no sometimes. good luck
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Good Lord, I haven't had anyone give me a CD in probably 4 years!
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8095
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Cantaloupe wrote:
What are the reasons for a photographer to NOT let the model go through the photos and let him/her choose? Lots of reasons (many have been states already...time to convert RAW files, etc.). My personal reason is that a model has a different filter they are seeing the photos through...no pun intended.
For example, when a model is looking at their own image, they tend to be more critical about things as it relates to them personally and not to things as far as the quality of an image. When a photographer looks at an image, they have an unbiased view as to what does, or what does not make an image aesthetically pleasing. A photographer is looking at composition, rule of thirds, depth of field, posing structure, and focal points whereas a model is looking at the same photo and thinking, "Jeez, my ass looks big in that one."
When I agree to collaborate with an MUA, I might make some suggestions on colors to go with the theme of the shoot or some general looks but I don't tell them how to do the brush strokes on the eye shadow or what brand of lipstick to use. I agree to work with them because I have seen the results they have done on other shoots and I trust that the result they will provide will meet or exceed my expectations.
When I agree to work with a model, I trust that she will actually know how to pose their body and can pull off different facial expressions without a huge amount of instruction. In some cases I trust that they will bring a good variety of quality wardrobe with them and that everything is clean and fits. I trust that they have recently had a mani and a pedi and the stubble isn't too bad from their recent waxing.
When a model agrees to work with me on a TFP basis, they are agreeing to trust my experience to know how to use my camera, lights and equipment. They trust in my knowledge and experience in adjusting light to create a certain effect. They trust in my experience in retouching an image to achieve a certain quality and look and they expect me to know how to choose a good photo from a bad one.
I understand that some models want to have all the photos so they can review and learn from the shoot. I'm totally cool with that, and if a model asks me if they can have the photos for that purpose, no problem. I'm happy to put up a gallery of low-res images with a big watermark over the front of the photos for them, but they will most certainly not receive all the photos. No way. No how. Aint gonna happen. There is simply no reason for it. If a model is unhappy with that then I am not the photographer for them, and I'm fine with that. But to call what I have as my policy...a policy that is very common for professional photographers, a scam. I think that's a bit obnoxious.
The other problem with handing over all the images is that inevitably, a model will wind up picking the absolute shittiest photo possible from the entire shoot. It's simple Murphy's Law. And then they are going to take that un-retouched photo and plaster it all over Facebook and Model Mayhem while tagging your name to it.
So if a model is in such a desperate needs to have all the photos we shot from the shoot, no problemo, as long as they pay me handsomely for them.
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