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Extremely annoyed with paying client.
Thanks everyone for the help and great feedback! Apr 19 14 01:09 am Link Did the check clear? Apr 19 14 01:14 am Link tenrocK photo wrote: Yes, I just checked again lol. I mainly stated that to show how much she didn't listen to a thing I told her. Apr 19 14 01:16 am Link First mistake "Ok so I posted an ad on craigslist. " Apr 19 14 01:17 am Link Nico Simon Princely wrote: I have gotten a lot of business off craigslist without issues. Do you have any advice on the entire situation? Apr 19 14 01:20 am Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Yes: finish the job to your client's liking and build a good reputation. Apr 19 14 01:25 am Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Yes when you saw that she clearly did not read the ad it was time to walk or do as you did but just don't complain about it because it's to be expected when dealing with someone that did not read your ad/terms and tries to change them during the shoot. Apr 19 14 01:27 am Link Nico Simon Princely wrote: My question was in regards to how to deal with the situation now that I am in it. And I don't see this as complaining, I see this as me telling everyone what happened and why I'm not sure of what to do. Had I not mentioned any of the details that occurred then no one would know a thing about what happened and I would've gotten a million and one questions. I am totally aware that I should have taken the red flags more seriously and ran away but it's too late for that. Apr 19 14 01:36 am Link tenrocK photo wrote: Well I haven't told anyone off yet or been unprofessional, I am going to keep going, but I can almost guarantee that this is going to sour soon because of the e-mails I have been getting from her. Even after we talked on the phone, in person, and now through e-mail about the details, she still behaves as if none of the details are real. I've never dealt with someone like her before. I don't now if there is something wrong with her mentally or what but that's honestly the feeling that I'm getting. Apr 19 14 01:42 am Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: At this point you have already been paid so as long as your are 100% sure the check will not have a stop payment on it. Complete the job to your best ability. Apr 19 14 01:45 am Link Thanks Nico and tenrock. I will keep on truckin' and see what happens. Apr 19 14 02:00 am Link First, you should have taken payment in advance, and ended the shoot at 2 hours. At this point, you have a record in some form, probably emails, of the shoot you agreed to (time and number of images) and the images the client selected. Retouch and give her the 4 images she picked, and be done with it. She's not paying attention and making herself very difficult, you don't owe her anything else, and sounds like you'll be a lot better off for concluding your business with her and never having to deal with her again. Apr 19 14 02:02 am Link wynnesome wrote: True. Hopefully she won't change her mind about about what images she wants me to fix again. I spent an hour on a picture for absolutely no reason. I'm not even sure how what she did makes any sense in her mind. Anyway, I did let her know that she needs to make sure the images she picks are the ones she wants so that I don't waste time (in a nice way). Maybe this time she will listen to me? I'm crossing my fingers. Apr 19 14 02:13 am Link 1 red flag, no problem 2. red flag, ask if they want to find another photographer 3. red flag I am respectfully declining this work (put it in your model release at anytime you can decline and stop work, and deposit is held, for this reason). You have to listen to clients and they will give you the flags quickly, I am sure if you think back you had 3 in 5-10 mins. Better to get out early and respectfully then to wait around for 10 or 15 flags later. Apr 19 14 02:14 am Link so much work for $150. by the time you are done you might average minimum wage. Apr 19 14 02:21 am Link E H wrote: It's funny because the first time her and I talked on the phone I thought she sounded a bit off. I immediately told my friend about the conversation but we both laughed it off because we know someone that we thought acted similar to her and that person is harmless. Anyway, my friend then said that I should do it because it would at least make for an interesting story to tell when I got back home. In agreement, I said ok even though deep down I didn't think it would go well. Apr 19 14 02:24 am Link barepixels wrote: I know, I foresee me having to fix the pictures a million and 1 times. She actually told me that she wanted to purchase 33 additional images, 33... I'm already having trouble with 4 so image working on 33 more! I'm not going to do that. I will find a way to not do that. Jesus help me. Apr 19 14 02:26 am Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Why are you letting someone who isn't on the same page as you affect you? Apr 19 14 02:40 am Link Michael Lohr wrote: I think it's because I feel very responsible for everything I'm involved with. It's a good and bad quality to have. I mean, I know I gave her every single detail imaginable before we even did the shoot and even on the day of the shoot, and I know I earned that money, but having the money and feeling uncertain is making me uneasy about the money being in my possession at all. I just want this to work out so that I can move on and avoid this scenario next time. But you are right, I do need to learn to not let this get to me. I can't control her actions, I can only do my part, keep my cool, and see what happens. Apr 19 14 02:54 am Link my opinion - the more you let people walk over you and demand more than what you offer, the harder it's going to get, although you want to just trek on and get it done *i've done that a couple times* to keep the rep, at one point you will have to put your foot down to prevent yourself being taken the piss out of over and over. clearly state the exact terms of a shoot (in a paper form if you want) , and any changes to a shoot may result in specific extra costs, she obviously sensed that you were nice and a little weak and is playing on it as she can, people will always try to get more for less but to get respect from clients you can't roll over and do everything they say, don't say yes to everything if you're saying no to yourself. so for this situation i would just complete it, even though it will be frustrating, *if you think you didn't explain correctly to her*, complete it. And for your next shoots just make sure you have everything set out written plain and simple so there's no pretend confusions from anyone. Apr 19 14 03:21 am Link When you undersell your work, you invite this kind of client. I'm not saying that you won't find yourself in annoying situations with much bigger jobs, but at least you can justify your suffering with a bigger paycheck to match. Don't do photo shoots for $150. It's as bad for you as it is for everybody else. Apr 19 14 03:21 am Link tenrocK photo wrote: +1 Apr 19 14 04:09 am Link I dealt with a client like her one time, a pure nightmare, very difficult to stay professional but that's what you have to do. Finish up as quickly as you can, deliver the images she picked and refuse to do any more. By allowing her change the conditions on the day and staying for five hours with her, you let her believe that she could mess you around and you would accept anything she does. The sooner you put your foot down the sooner she'll back off. My client had ADHD but didn't tell me until about a year later when she came back looking for more prints. Apr 19 14 08:35 am Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: All jobs require certain parameters to be specified. Four retouched images is an open invitation for trouble because it makes no limitations as to the amount and type of retouch work. Just the retouch work could easily eat up your costs. Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Difficult clients depend on you to not say anything. What did you say when she was late? What did you say when the first two hours were up? Where you tired after only two hours? Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Finish your part as agreed. You didn't control the situations as they developed and were "too tired" to deal with later - then it becomes your problem. Dealing with it immediately would have prevented more agony. Apr 19 14 08:56 am Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Price each additional image at $20 and maybe you'll make it worth your already spent time. Apr 19 14 09:08 am Link You have taken the money and done what you said (and more to boot). You do nothing more - move on. She is obviously an idiot and is probably friends with idiots, so you wouldn't want recommendations from her anyway. I see no reason to offer a refund or do anymore work for free. If she wishes to pay more for you to do further work on the images, that is up to her. Apr 19 14 10:03 am Link Mr. Alvarez Reality check, you project wayyyy too much negativity ..avoid these dramatic ramblings, it's unprofessional as hell. I bet you can figure it out on your own, but generally, this business is a service one about the clients and doing everything you can to accommodate them. Often you have to cull clients that become too costly to pursue.. (this doesn't even technically qualify as a client, though)... the goal is to make people come back reoccurring, emphasizing the client term - customer who comes back again and again. it doesn't matter how much they paid, it matters how much value they believe they received..and your ability to sell that. I think personally you're smarter than this and genuinely want to learn.. so wake up dude, Apr 19 14 10:07 am Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Next time, write up all the details and conditions agreed upon and get her to sign it. Then she has no grounds for claiming a misunderstanding. The day we met for the shoot she was an hour late. She was supposed to change in my hotel room and then we would walk around the strip taking pictures. She decided that wasn’t going to work for her because it was too much walking up and down to change so she said that we should drive around instead and she would change in her car. Her choice. So I got in her car and the shoot lasted 5 hours, not 2. Your choice to let it go that long. What were you thinking? And what did you do or say when the two hour mark came and went? Did you say anything at all? At the end of the shoot she gave me a check instead of cash like I told her to do when we first spoke on the phone. By that point I was so tired that I didn't care. No ATMs in the area? That was likely her clue to walk all over you the rest of the way. When I finally got back to Cali, I sent her all of the sample images, she picked 4, gave me the numbers, and I started to fix them. I sent her 2 of the four like an hour ago and she told me that one of the images was simply not going to work for her, after I spent more than an hour working on it because she picked it and told me to fix it. So did you stick to your guns and give her only the images she ordered, or did you process more images she decided she wanted instead? When we were in her car, before the shoot even started, she started talking to me about how pricey I was and that she actually was going to go with someone else that has a studio and a lot more equipment than I do Right then and there I'd tell her to go with the cheaper photographer with more gear. I already know this mess is only going to get worse and I honestly feel like giving her her money back even though I worked hard as hell and I deserve it. Should I give it back? How do I deal with this situation? If you give the money back after all this, you've played right into her game of getting a bunch of work for nothing. Apr 19 14 10:21 am Link OP: no offense, but you need to stick to your guns. A client hires you because they see your prior work and want to work with you for images that are similar to that work. You need to manage your clients expectations, and if you don't, they are going to continue to drag you all over the map and then some. You agreed to $150 (which is very low btw) for 4 retouched images with a 2 hour shoot window. She sent you 4 selects. Retouch them, send them to her, and move on. You have everything in written communication with her already I hope also. If she decides to complain, you have everything documented, and you have upheld your end of the agreement. For future, you need to manage expectations in advance and stick to them. Take a non-refundable deposit up front for half down to hold the date/time, and sign a written agreement even with the client prior to the shoot date. This helps to manage expectations as well. You are wasting time that could be spent on another shoot for your business. Unfortunately sometimes, there are always going to be folks that you just can not please no matter what. It sounds like in this case that she is simply trying to get something for nothing. You can get rid of that demographic by pricing your work more accurately to what the market will withstand. At this point, I would re-state the agreement with her, ask her what final four images that she wants, retouch them, send them, and move on. good luck Apr 19 14 10:42 am Link You have to run you business as a professional-period. First, when you client was an hour late, you should have immediately told her that there was only an hour remaining of your photo shoot time. Secondly, when the shoot exceeded the amount of time you agreed on, you should immediately have said that you have finished the 2 hour shoot period and any more time would be extra at $XX per hour. When the client produced a check, you should have immediately gone to the bank to get cash or deposited it on your phone. If the client chooses images for editing but doesn't like them later-its not your fault. Move on to the next gig. When you see difficult clients like this, you need to confirm all details 100% in writing to proceed. You should also expect that most budget clients on CL or similar will often be your most challenging. Apr 19 14 11:09 am Link I think situations like that could be prevented or made better if the photographer insists on a signed contract for an individual shoot. Something like: In exchange for [Amount], I understand that I am getting: (itemized) (A) ... (B) ... If I wanted extra or the session goes into overtime, I understand I will be incurred [Amount]. [Client Signature] [Photographer Signature] Keep it simple and "stupid," in a sense that you want to make it transparent and not way for wrongfully misinterpreting what you're offering and what what the client has accepted or agreed to. Make two copies of the WORK ORDER and give one to your client and keep one for yourself. If any disagreement in decision or creative control arises, calmly and CONFIDENTLY remind your client to the signed work order. Your mistake is not accepting the 50% deposit upfront. These days, you could have a PayPal or Google Wallet account and have your client use their debit (bank account) or their credit card to put money into their PayPal or Google Wallet and thus they could remit your 50% deposit fee. Apr 19 14 11:20 am Link [REDACTED] Apr 19 14 11:23 am Link The only ad you should post on Craigslist would be: "Hello, I would like to raped and murdered in my home. Please bring own knife. Thanks." And even then, they will forget the knife... Apr 19 14 11:31 am Link Thanks everyone for the help. Let me see if I can answer all of you. - She picked 4 pictures and I sent her 2 in order gauge how much photoshopping she wanted. She told me one needed more retouching, but then for the other she went off. She said I should have shot it differently. That there was too much fence in the picture and not enough of her boots. That it "will NOT work" in dramatic caps and all lol. I responded by telling her to pick images she actually wants me to retouch. She responded by restating that I should have shot it differently, and that it's not that she doesn't want it, she just changed her mind. Which is like wtf? Why would anyone pick a picture they don't want, diss the photographer's work when they have a ton of other options, yet say that they want 33 extra images? None of that makes any sense. That's what I am trying to illustrate. - About the shoot lasting 5 hours. I was in Vegas for vacation. For some reason I couldn't sleep the night before. By the time she told me she was going to be late I said fine, I can sleep another hour but her being this late is a problem. Then, since neither of us knew places to shoot at (since she no longer wanted to shoot on the strip) we had to keep driving. All I keep thinking about was getting her in her outfits that she told me she wanted. At first, she took me to an outdoor mall. We got a bunch of things done there but then we got kicked out by security so we had to relocate. Once we found another location, my head again was on getting everything done. That's why the 5 hours happened. And that's why I was tired. - Location change. It might have been her choice but I'm not from Vegas, I said the shoot would be on the strip, and thank god I'm fine but it was not the best idea to get in a car with a total stranger when I knew nothing of my surroundings. I got in anyway because I figured that as long as I payed attention to her every move I would be fine. - Yes, I should have gotten her to sign a contract but I swear that all the details were layed out in the ad, we talked about them on the phone when she first contacted me, we talked about them before the shoot started when I was in her car. For her to not know what the terms were makes no sense. - When she started saying disrespectful things to me, I immediately thought of cancelling the shoot. The only reason I didn't was because I thought maybe she just didn't know better and meant no harm. All of the red flags I got from her, I thought they meant that she was a little off but not as off as what I'm seeing now. - I'm talking about this because it happened and i wanted to hear feedback. I have to give all of the details so that everyone knows the full story. I mean sure, I could have just said "difficult client, what do I do?" but that doesn't help much. I don't mind sharing. - I should have gotten half of the deposit upfront. When she showed me that check I did tell her I asked her for cash. She said she didn't remember that... Apparently she doesn't remember anything. I figured that ok, if it bounces I learn my lesson and move on. If it doesn't I will send her the images and move on. It didn't bounce. I will make sure a contract is in place from now on (I do have one already written) and that I get half of the shoot before even meeting the person. Apr 19 14 11:40 am Link "I retouched the images(s) you selected for me to retouch per our agreement". "It is fine for you to change your mind or add images for me to retouch". "but each additional image will be at the rate of an additional $xx/per image" And have her pay you before retouching any extra images would be my advice. Apr 19 14 11:46 am Link I would give her money back and delete the pictures. Apr 19 14 12:53 pm Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: these are all good things Apr 19 14 12:55 pm Link KungPaoChic wrote: I bet you are right hahahaha! I just talked to her. She seems to be calming down. She only wants 5 additional images now. She picked the ones she wanted. Told me exactly what she wants done to them. I sent her a paypal invoice for the additional images and I managed to write down all of the terms from the shoot in it. I have to get as many things in writing as I can now lol. I'm going to try to tackle this and move on. Apr 19 14 01:02 pm Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Learning things the hard way is always a well remembered lesson Apr 19 14 02:22 pm Link Brian Ziff wrote: While I agree with this, I have a similar pricing structure for agency models. Sometimes I go less. I can use the money. Apr 19 14 02:27 pm Link |
