Ken Warren Photography wrote:
To which I would reply:

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Terribly sorry, can't understand what you have written.
Perhaps an improved version of communication skills.

Tim Summa wrote:
This quagmire of our discontent, internet modeling.

Of course it is not dead, internet modeling I mean, it is doing what all good things do, morphing into a new form.

My question is not to stir the naysayer, the hive or such. What I am searching for are the insights, the visionaries who believe that modeling has, is or will evolve in this or that direction. Yes, you can be the detractor who wants to give us your views, yet I am hopping that there will be some discussion as to where or what the direction is, or shall be.

Looking forward to what all members of the industry have to say on this important issue.

Historical check:
Photography Forms come into existence as a few construct loose groups to shot gun discuss the world of photography.

The start of major internet sites like Garage Glamour begin and evolve as the internet begins the long and fast trip out of the ocean of ideals like camera clubs into the world of money and cooperate structuring as money making machines.

Pre OMP/MM, people seeking a way into an industry, that is now the modeling industry of the internet era and in need of a forum to get it together. (See above).

OMP was birthed and quickly went south as a true group interaction.

MM began and replaced OMP as the place to be because there was a social base to the location. MM replaces OMP because it embraces the social structure of an all inclusive opportunity of web freedom. It is the grease that lubes the wheels of a new modeling industry.

Life is good and things move along. New and innovative effects begin to emerge, language (‘you go girl’), GWC (the cash cows of the new industry, got to have $money$), MUAs pop up and are recognized (note, before the ‘digital artist’ and all of that, we got MUAs in the box), then the gypsy model, traveling about the country (thank Miss NYC Sarah), silly banter in the forums (like Texass babe Ciara’s ‘spit or swallow’), and that amazing urban myth The Secret Nude Modeling Site (yes, it realy did exist, but it is now gone, rip), there are others.

Some Ten years slipped past and we see some major models retiring, moving on with life. Something is going on, that is what I want to know…”waddds up!”

Now, the GWC is still there, stronger and driving the supply and demand. Models drift about, photographers have issues with escorts (I do agree, it was/is a terrible car!), it is as though there is a pawl upon the land, we are become like Sartre and the other existentialists; a drift on a sea of nothingness, alone, searching our horizons for some hope…God is not dead, it is disenchanted.

So, any thoughts, ideas as you sit hunched over in your dingy awaiting something to happen? Do I know, nope, I do not. The reason is a simply one. Review what we are all saying, feeling, talking about and one thing will become obvious (well to me it is obvious, but I’m a jerk, I think too much). As always and as was at the start of this whole brave new adventure called internet modeling…it will be women who will deliver the new vision, the new direction(s). So I will read with amusement all the guys talk but when I hear that voice, that woman talk, then I sit up like a smart dog and listen. They will be the standard bearers who will lead us from this quagmire of our discontent.

Is there a question in there somewhere?  Or just a statement.



Here's my take:

Internet modeling is more robust than ever.  The pool to draw from keeps getting bigger and bigger.  The sheer number of terrible photographers who got a camera for Christmas or with their tax return and think they can just do this is overwhelming.  The cream rises to the top.  The slag sinks to the bottom.

The majority of "models" that I shoot are just regular girls who want photos.  They do promotional modeling.  They need submission photos to audition for their Hooters/Winghouse/TwinPeaks/TiltedKilt calendars.  They just want amazing photos of themselves at 20 because one day, they know they'll be 40.

There will always be photographers willing to shoot this for free.  And they will get what they pay for.  There will always be people with money to pay these models to get them as naked as they can for their cameras, but the photos are just trophies.

The serious modeling/photography business will be around for quite some time, in much the same capacity as it's always been.  The top 0.1% will make the money.  The rest will fruitlessly chase dreams.

Websites will rise and fall.  OMP rose and fell.  MM rose and is in a death spiral as far as usability and effectiveness for people to actually benefit financially from.  Maybe some other site will rise, or everything will just go Facebook.  I know I've gone about 97% facebook for connecting with models and paying work. 

Others have better ratios and the traveling models still use this site to varying success.

But it's still who you know that matters over what you know.

Tim Summa wrote:

Terribly sorry, can't understand what you have written.
Perhaps an improved version of communication skills.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Orca Bay Images wrote:

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Thank you Orca Bay, a translation is always appreciated.

udor wrote:
I blame Tyra for the surge in young women who wanted to model, too...

Maybe the novelty of ANTM has finally waned and former models and "models" who might be the older aunty or mom herself might tell aspiring gals that it's not all what the tv says...

We still have the occasional tamper-tantrum of the 5'2", 200lbs, Kate Moss citing person, insisting to model, because she has seen it on TV, but I think overall... I think that "surge" is over...

A little disclosure tho... I don't watch TV... I don't really know what modeling themed shows are running, although I know of "The Face" from subway ads... but have never seen it.

So, I might be wrong, but from my non-TV POV... it makes sense...

Hi Udor! The handsome main stream accomplished photographer of the fashion world!

Thanks for adding that certain validity to the subject.

TV I know; the code letters Tyra and ANTM are not something I recognize, being as I am dyslexic.

As to TV, I am in the same opinion as you, don’t have it, don’t use it. Sort of like when I lived in Augsburg and Munich 1968 to 1971, picture but no sound (the 50 to 60 cycle conversion thing). The only part I understood were those 10 second spots with the smerf guys between commercials; cartoon versions of Gilligan’s Island. Never learned any real German, that dyslexia was part but there were other factors involved.

P.S. Off topic, did Bobby R. get you tipsy that night…be honest, we need some gossip, PLEASE!
Ok, you don't HAVE to tell.
So close!

Tim Summa wrote:
Terribly sorry, can't understand what you have written.
Perhaps an improved version of communication skills.

I could have written a huge, impassioned screed, but, to be honest, Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr said it far better than I could have. Good Egg said basically the same thing, just used more words to do it: Internet modeling is constantly changing and reinventing itself, nothing to see here, move along, move along...

Tim Summa wrote:
...
So, any thoughts, ideas as you sit hunched over in your dingy awaiting something to happen? Do I know, nope, I do not. The reason is a simply one. Review what we are all saying, feeling, talking about and one thing will become obvious (well to me it is obvious, but I’m a jerk, I think too much). As always and as was at the start of this whole brave new adventure called internet modeling…it will be women who will deliver the new vision, the new direction(s). So I will read with amusement all the guys talk but when I hear that voice, that woman talk, then I sit up like a smart dog and listen. They will be the standard bearers who will lead us from this quagmire of our discontent.

Well, not sure how anyone can hunch over in a ''dingy'' but since you said you only listen to women (like an obedient dog even) then I don't see the point in chiming in other than to say that ''death spiral'' is applicable...     Have fun.

Tim Summa wrote:
Now, the GWC is still there, stronger and driving the supply and demand.

Deep pockets for T&A or something called art ! that's what the model sites are all about and models are only too happy to oblige for $$$.
The quality of work isn't that important.

WIP wrote:
Deep pockets for T&A or something called art ! that's what the model sites are all about and models are only too happy to oblige for $$$.
The quality of work isn't that important.

Its what you do with T&A that will make you an artist or a GWC, that I can agree with.

In art, and in his day, Manet was considered a GWC of sorts among painter. But then he knew his history and the iconic was known to his viewers, so in his day he was the bad boy.

Lets take a quick look because many don’t realy understand what the whole up roar was at the Paris Salon of the time. Manet’s Olympia was a fire storm, it even required round the clock guards (cops) to stop defacement. Why? See that bracelet on her wrist? Well Manet did not own that, it was a rich mans possession. Titan (It. Tiziano) had given this to his several mistresses, who he used as his subjects, including the last reported to have been his grand daughter or first cousin to the prior mistress. He kept the thing and just kept moving it along down the ladies. The bracelet went on to a long history in art as a special keep sake for many artist and then men of means as a special gift. Titan makes the like of Terry Richards, well a piker.

So Olympia is not just a famous prostitute, she is symbolized as the fall of ‘good women’ for money to the view of the public.

That not being enough, Manet again hits the public in the chops with Luncheon on the Grass. Again there is the need to grasp what was on view. Not what they put into books and movies. See that red splotch close to center at the top of the painting, right up where God should be (or one of his arch angles)? It is a cardinal. There are layers of issues there but he is basically stating that the lead dogs of the Roman Catholic Church should approve of the new paining as it has a sense of the real and because the church high bastions of social order are approving then they replace God or his messengers as to what the true morality is.

So now, back to your rather narrow position about GWC phenomenon, it is the GWC, the commerce of old that allowed for art to exist and flourish under patronage. So now the modern commerce of business allows the making of art by way of the GWC. With out the T&A and the GWC, then artists such as, example myself, would never be able to access the women to make art.

I guess I better get a copy of Titan’s bracelet to stick in the images? Nah, these is modern times, and I have the new era object, big heeled shoes. Yep, now you know, it is stripper shoes or Bad Girl Shoes, these are the shoes that read naughty-naughty. So no GWC pics for me, bare foot and prego, ‘pure’ nudes where the girls got no shoes, bare feet are only cool for foot fetishist (Hello, Elmer Batters!).

‘Art is in the eye of the beholder’, is a tired thro back if you are one of the illiterates of the future, to artists we know exactly what it is. Thank you to all the GWCs for making my life possible!

Jay  Edwards wrote:

Well, not sure how anyone can hunch over in a ''dingy'' but since you said you only listen to women (like an obedient dog even) then I don't see the point in chiming in other than to say that ''death spiral'' is applicable...     Have fun.

But you did chime in! Woff-woff!
We are all Pavlovs diligent puppies, or did you miss the memo about the power of the Goddess. Realy, seriously, I can forward a copy to you, lets see, some where close to the tweed memo file.

Ken Warren Photography wrote:

I could have written a huge, impassioned screed, but, to be honest, Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr said it far better than I could have. Good Egg said basically the same thing, just used more words to do it: Internet modeling is constantly changing and reinventing itself, nothing to see here, move along, move along...

But there is so much to see! I love your Goddess image that you have as your avatar! That necklace is to die for and what is the class or set for the bindi covering her third eye?

See, I’m trying to see where the women are taking us. I know, we should just sit back and hang on, probably a good safe course of action, your correct in that.

Yet, I want to be there when the new beginning is approaching, I find that vary exciting. Yes, again, probably most  should take it easy, but I’m old, like Titan, and I want to be there when the boat arrives so I can pop off on to the shore of the horizons and drink in the new vision of splendor.

Tim Summa wrote:
But you did chime in! Woff-woff!
We are all Pavlovs diligent puppies, or did you miss the memo about the power of the Goddess. Realy, seriously, I can forward a copy to you, lets see, some where close to the tweed memo file.

It's true -- you don't ''listen''.

Have fun with that.

Tim Summa wrote:
But there is so much to see! I love your Goddess image that you have as your avatar! That necklace is to die for and what is the class or set for the bindi covering her third eye?

See, I’m trying to see where the women are taking us. I know, we should just sit back and hang on, probably a good safe course of action, your correct in that.

Yet, I want to be there when the new beginning is approaching, I find that vary exciting. Yes, again, probably most  should take it easy, but I’m old, like Titan, and I want to be there when the boat arrives so I can pop off on to the shore of the horizons and drink in the new vision of splendor.

Thank you for the compliment. I was quite happy overall with that image, though I should have worked to get a bit more emotion out of her. But everything she's wearing is hers, she's a local art model and American Tribal style belly dancer who has a profile here. So she's the best one to ask about the story behind the equipage.

I'm going to leave the rest alone; like you I'm along for the ride, really. I don't think I'm likely to innovate in this space (I just don't have time or funds). but someone will come up with a new idea, and then pink will be the new black, or whatever.

Tim Summa wrote:
TV I know; the code letters Tyra and ANTM are not something I recognize, being as I am dyslexic.

P.S. Off topic, did Bobby R. get you tipsy that night…be honest, we need some gossip, PLEASE!
Ok, you don't HAVE to tell.
So close!

Hi Tim!

Tyra Banks is the former supermodel turned TV show host and the creator of the American Next Top Model (ANTM) franchise, which gave Millions over Millions of girls and rural hobby photographers a false impression about the fashion industry.

So... Bob can drink! But so can I...


EDIT: I just read your post about Manet. As I have studied a little bit about Impressionism, I commend you for your insight. People who work in an artistic field could often profit from understanding one of the most important, the modern era defining art movements and why it was so outrageous and revolutionary for the times then. How many painters literally lived in whorehouses, with prostitutes as their subjects and muses. Lives of debauchery was often found among artist, including depression and other mental disorders...

Some of today's offenders pale in comparison, or can at least hold their water...

Good Egg Productions wrote:
Is there a question in there somewhere?  Or just a statement.



Here's my take:
...
The serious modeling/photography business will be around for quite some time, in much the same capacity as it's always been.  The top 0.1% will make the money.  The rest will fruitlessly chase dreams.

Not all of "the rest," some of "the rest" will quietly work to realize the images in their heads for enjoyment, not worrying about whether their images are "artistic" or "commercial."

Ken Warren Photography wrote:

Thank you for the compliment. I was quite happy overall with that image, though I should have worked to get a bit more emotion out of her. But everything she's wearing is hers, she's a local art model and American Tribal style belly dancer who has a profile here. So she's the best one to ask about the story behind the equipage.

I'm going to leave the rest alone; like you I'm along for the ride, really. I don't think I'm likely to innovate in this space (I just don't have time or funds). but someone will come up with a new idea, and then pink will be the new black, or whatever.

Oh! I do so like that turn of phrase, “pink will be the new black”. You see, your insight may trigger a new direction.

I believe it was someone in the 60’s, quoting a philosopher from the century before, when the 60’s hip said: “If your not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.” That idea  would probably come from the notion that one not look for answers, but search for the meaningful questions and the answers would then reveal themselves.

Pink will be the new black! That could be a chant from a Buddhist monk (BMWC?, nah, won’t work, people will think of dem Bavarian cars). See, now we are rolling, now to find out what the women will say to that. Not like a GWC would state the idea, you know, like would be:  ‘Green will be the new black’. To much like an unattended wound gone south! LOL!!!

Managing Light wrote:
Not all of "the rest," some of "the rest" will quietly work to realize the images in their heads for enjoyment, not worrying about whether their images are "artistic" or "commercial."

Commercial or artistic, there is the rub, it is always the same lonely problem.

Like is it art or is it craft. If Pablo paints a weather vane and slaps it up on the barn, is it art or is it craft? Better still, a company makes twisted horses for a carousel, the kids like them but moms and dads say, “Oh NO! This is some sick stuff! My kid isn’t riding on those sort of faery tale!” But the kids go to the Museum of Modern Art in New Your City and the same horses are  seen in Picasso’s Guernica. That is ok, because now the fantasy is gone and the children are exposed to the directness that the horses are being blown up by bombs dropped on them from Nazi bombers in their home the barn.

In San Antonio there was a lovely open free wheeling place called the Southwest Craft Center. Then, serious dropped in and it morphed into the Southwest School of Art and Craft, But then, well after a co-authored book was published challenging us to understand that there was a relationship, and important relationship of the Crafts and the Art. Then off with their heads, we need to be respectable, be taken seriously as a school, so out goes the word craft and it turns into the Southwest School of Art.

So, you might say, where are WE this new location, this photography that is resting here in the twenty first century? This is where we may find our ground back into the world of our past. There was a ‘thing’ called The Crafts Movement. Trace it back to Europe, realy the life blood was the English cottage industry. They were hand making items that competed with the mass manufactured industrial product. Sort of like what we Mayhemers do instead of Sears Photo, or Glamour Shots, ect.

From this long tradition emerged a lot of people who would meet and not in secret, who did photography. This evolved into what became The Camera Clubs of America. It was quite a thing these camera clubs. Yes, there was schmaltz and lots of it. Oh, necked women, lots of them also. EVEN, necked men! ‘Studies’, nudity, snaps from sun worshipers and plenty enough cute kids running about with out clothes. Thing about it was, the rosters were chuck full of women, as participating members of the individual clubs. To note, they were pretty much 50/50 men and women. Women held places as presidents of their chapters and not just an odd here and there, but across the nation.

These people refused to make a distinction between if photography was art or craft or any of that silly nonsense. There was just a love of hand crafting an image. To make something that was not the standard commercial out put but an individual vision that sprang from their mind and hands.

So, we have a tradition, a long powerful tradition. I mentioned language that models have evolved. The dumb one is “You go GIRL!”, yes, sorry, it is childish like middle school. Of course it is no more so than many of the silly language that photographers spew…togs, what is that about (sorry to our brethren across the pond, but we in the colonies still hold dear our silly right to thumb our nose at the motherland! LOL!!!). Back to the new language…models, and I do mean the women, both in and out of their clothes are now beginning to openly assert them selves in a way that has not been seen before. I tell you I’m getting goose bumps think as I type. They show you the photographs in their ports and call them THEIR photographs. It is soft, it appears off hand, but the intent is clear and it is not meant to undermine the photographer (regardless of the photographers gender).

What they are saying is, this creativity is mine, it has me at its core and without me it would not have happened. They are of course completely delusional, to think they are Kate Moss, come on! I mean would Philip of Lithium Picnic let them say that about his images, well perhaps about Apnea, you know, they were married and still ‘see’ each other, so you know he HAS to share or else! He ain’t no bodies fool! But them other suicidal things! Give me a big break. Of course I am having a bit of fun here.

But realy, seriously this is the new language of the model that is emerging. It is real, it is dynamic and it bothers me not at all, because it is savvy and on point. What they are doing, these internet models is to assert that they are at base the force of many pieces of work and they can and do force the emergence of the final product to go beyond the basic to that of an elevates work. Is it art, is it craft; it is neither and it is both. The models will open a new vision of what languishes what is stale and drive it into the stratosphere of new visionary domains.

Or, in the illustrative words of the like of Walter Benjamin:
“The illiterate of the future will not be the man who cannot read the alphabet, but the one who cannot take a photograph.”

With digital photography the space between the illiterates is narrowing, these women, these models are busy taking hold of the camera, even if it is the selfies of cell phone technology. Be vary careful, they learn vary quickly, they master that tool quickly and easily. In my teaching of students I was always singling out the women, separating them from the males. I would enable them with what ever technology they needed to make the images they sought. Then I would step back and let them show me the paths they traversed. Like any man or woman, even children, they were quick to share their adventures. It is from these experiences that I honed my own vision. They taught me to see deeper, more creatively, more originally. Is that why they are called muses? I prefer the ancient title of witch.

udor wrote:

Hi Tim!

Tyra Banks is the former supermodel turned TV show host and the creator of the American Next Top Model (ANTM) franchise, which gave Millions over Millions of girls and rural hobby photographers a false impression about the fashion industry.

So... Bob can drink! But so can I...


EDIT: I just read your post about Manet. As I have studied a little bit about Impressionism, I commend you for your insight. People who work in an artistic field could often profit from understanding one of the most important, the modern era defining art movements and why it was so outrageous and revolutionary for the times then. How many painters literally lived in whorehouses, with prostitutes as their subjects and muses. Lives of debauchery was often found among artist, including depression and other mental disorders...

Some of today's offenders pale in comparison, or can at least hold their water...

Thanks for the straight dope on Tyra and the TV stuff. I realy don’t watch TV, I know, I live a cultural vacuum! I swear I have tried, but I mostly get bored and find myself wondering off, looking at books, the internet and talking with people. BUT, I’m horrible and easily distracted like a gold fish left to close to the boob tube in a clear glass bowl when it comes to old movies, hell, movies in general. I’m a sucker.

That part about the red splotch in the trees, what a surprise! I was teaching course that was art appreciation, but from such a pompous text. The students expected to have a boring but easy class, not like math, science or religion! We were discussing the Manet Luncheon on the Grass when I simply asked what did they think the red splotch might be or mean and what was it that it meant.

While we are trying to sort this red spot out one of the women in the class says, “I found an article by some guy, art historian, wrote this long paper and  some other guy wrote about his paper in another paper, he says it’s a cardinal, ya know, a bird that is red?”

Well the whole paining just fell right into place form myself after knowing the history and facts about the painting. I explained what a cardinal was and the symbolic references, the placement and the manner in which each subject was posed to associate Manet’s subjects with religious iconography and certain classical paintings. The class perked up and they got so intrigued I had to balance art story time with our class studies. Realy not hard and got them to perk up.

Mortonovich wrote:
Digging this thread.

I'm enjoying this a bunch as well, we may discover a lot from one another, even things about each other we did not know. I guess it is pretty obvious that I have a strong background in the fine arts.

I do not want to go off topic, yet it helps to understand who we are. Perhaps there should be a thread where members of MM can tell their story if they would like to do that. But I suppose we are expected to post a bio with our port. Oh well, back to the program!

Tim Summa wrote:

I'm enjoying this a bunch as well, we may discover a lot from one another, even things about each other we did not know. I guess it is pretty obvious that I have a strong background in the fine arts.

I do not want to go off topic, yet it helps to understand who we are. Perhaps there should be a thread where members of MM can tell their story if they would like to do that. But I suppose we are expected to post a bio with our port. Oh well, back to the program!

I enjoy it a lot too!

Here is a thread of mine, regarding art that I do not mention as part of my MM bio... or my fashion website. This has a link to my art website (surrealism):
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=926378

You are welcome to gander around...

Jay  Edwards wrote:

Well, not sure how anyone can hunch over in a ''dingy'' but since you said you only listen to women (like an obedient dog even) then I don't see the point in chiming in other than to say that ''death spiral'' is applicable...     Have fun.

Well, not sure how anyone can hunch over in a ''dingy'' but since you said you only listen to women (like an obedient dog even) then I don't see the point in chiming in other than to say that ''death spiral'' is applicable...      Have fun.
That is vary odd to me, I do not have a background in boating but I understand a ‘dingy’ as a small craft, a boat that is used to go into coastal waters. My vision was perhaps a obtuse one. It was mixed with the odd existential image of the single person alone, floating on an endless body of water searching for meaning.
Then, my mind pulled up the visual as I remembered the film based on Hemmingway’s The Old Man and The Sea. The one were he is alone with the one great catch of his fishing life as a commercial sort of fisherman. His loss of the fish tied to his boat as other predatory fish come in a remove pieces of his prize. In the end he is reduced to that of a worn out old man hunched over, exhausted, adrift in an unforgiving sea. It reminded me of the notion of the existentialist and their drifting boat, and Hemmingway’s old man and his win/loose to the sea.

I apologize for my error in not making that linkage clear, my mistake.

Perhaps you could help me out with something that is also in your comment; how is a death spiral applicable? It is not the applicable part I am having trouble with, it could be self explanatory, if I understood what the death spiral was in reference to, and how this is applicable to the discussion of the awaking of what some say (here on MM) is the expanding number of models that are taking up an interest in the activity of modeling.

Please understand, I’m not say anything about this idea you have, I am just at a loss to understand your basic premise. So, if I have not offended you (and that was not my intention), what is the death spiral and what has it to do with internet modeling?

Tim Summa wrote:
Oh! I do so like that turn of phrase, “pink will be the new black”. ...

"Pink is the new black" is a fashion industry motto from the 1960s, variously attributed to Gloria Vanderbilt, Diana Vreeland, and (possibly) others. Look it up and consider not only what the originator meant, but what the phrase implies.

But since you clearly don't understand what I mean, I'll lay it out. Yes, "internet modeling" is changing. It will continue to do so until it dies entirely and something completely new takes it's place. Yet, no matter how much it changes, it will still remain similar to what we know today: people (mostly male) wielding cameras will point them at other people (mostly female), and expose film/CMOS sensors/whatever comes next. They will make contact via some form of asynchronous electronic communication. Both the people pointing the cameras cameras and the people at whom the cameras are pointed will have varying levels of skill and creativity. Money will change hands. None of it will matter to the fashion industry at large, because fashion is not generally what goes on here.

Details will vary over time. I remember when "Internet models" had individual web sites, and you emailed them or contacted them from a page on that site; there was no "book of Face", there was no "Internet Brands MM", there was no "OMP", just a woman, a website, and a guy. But (again) "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose": "The more things change, the more they remain the same". The qualitative difference in Internet modeling between 2000 and 2014 is pretty small.

udor wrote:

I enjoy it a lot too!

Here is a thread of mine, regarding art that I do not mention as part of my MM bio... or my fashion website. This has a link to my art website (surrealism):
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=926378

You are welcome to gander around...

Shame, shame, shame Mr. Udor! (delivered in the styling of that horrid TV character, Gomer Pyle, USMC). LOL!!!

Shameful self promotion, you naughty boy! OK, we will let it slide, THIS time!

This is what is fascinating about members. Everyone here has these hidden qualities, squirreled away, hidden, and yet they are driven to reveal these wondrous things. When I saw the image that you posted where we were asked to show photographs that we had of ourselves that we felt showed an aspect of who and what we were about; Udor posted an image of himself atop a tall scaffold, looking down above a group of bodies that had been hand painted. Nice image of you, and yet I would love to understand what take that you had on these painted bodies. The concept, the purpose of the making of the images; were you chosen because of your background with paint and canvas? What is your notion as to how this project fit with in the fashion industry, because you have one foot in the one and the other foot in the other, your insight would be rather unique, even invaluable (still time to chime in).

We ALL have interesting notions. Secrets can be revealed that can help others to see more deeply into the workings of what and who we are. I’m reminded of a conversation that I had with Arnold Newman some years before he past. He was truly one of the illuminating power houses of our industry. He was always giving back into the photographic community. He was doing a workshop at the then Southwest School of art and Craft under the leadership of Rick Collier (a brilliant individual who moves the world of contemporary arts).

I was alone with Arnold in our delightful run down, slap together lighting studio and class room. Arnold asked what we did with the old background paper, the nine foot rolls. What followed just struck me as amazing. It seemed that Arnold had for years the notion of taking and cutting/ripping the old background paper and make ‘art’ of it. I did something that rather stunned Arnold, I suggested that under the visiting artist program we could bring him back and have him go nuts with hand knife and scissors. Arnold was surprised, he though that well it would never work, he just fancied the idea (but I knew it was much more than that). I told him that I was going to speak to Ric and see if we could do the project and that HE (Arnold) would decide in the end if it was something he would put his name with and exhibit in the gallery and that no one would know his reason for the trip.

Of course this never happened, even though Ric was certain he could secure funding easily from a local funder or group like the Bemus Foundation. What struck me was the way that Arnolds eye ignited as he spoke about the idea of doing such a thing. I’m sure there was something in his past experience that was driving this idea. I think it also had to do with making something that was totally not what he was comfortable doing.

So, if old man Udor is planning his retirement as a surrealist, well I say, Udor, lets find a funder and see if you might just paint up a whole line of fashion gowns! Lets bring the two worlds together, after all, you can always be the photographer taking the images, we will just put in the exhibition agreement that you use internet models, you know, 27 year old tated women who are 5’, 5”! Come on, you’re an artist, you can make it work! (Secret hint, have them wear the dresses on their heads, they won’t mind being necked in pictures!).

WIP wrote:
Deep pockets for T&A or something called art ! that's what the model sites are all about and models are only too happy to oblige for $$$.
The quality of work isn't that important.

Not all of us internet models are here for that. Although I'm learning now that I'd better be quiet about it or else -some, not all, just some- of the models, sort of a sub-community who are viciously protective of their prey/gwc/photographers.)

While I'm a bit out of current events due to my age, location and not having watched t.v. since reality shows came out if it wasn't for internet modeling sites I would have missed out on a lot of fun and creativity!

Jen
p.s. and I do not think facebook is mm death's spiral, I think there is the potential for MM to morph into another season, (albeit I felt very positive about this before the March slash and brig and post removal exertion of power/authority by the site but I still think it will happen.)

edit: yeah, I'm digging this thread too!

MB Jen B wrote:

Not all of us internet models are here for that. Although I'm learning now that I'd better be quiet about it or else -some, not all, just some- of the models, sort of a sub-community who are viciously protective of their prey/gwc/photographers.)

While I'm a bit out of current events due to my age, location and not having watched t.v. since reality shows came out if it wasn't for internet modeling sites I would have missed out on a lot of fun and creativity!

Jen
p.s. and I do not think facebook is mm death's spiral, I think there is the potential for MM to morph into another season, (albeit I felt very positive about this before the March slash and brig and post removal exertion of power/authority by the site but I still think it will happen.)

edit: yeah, I'm digging this thread too!

I find this an interesting piece of information. Models who guard their contacts for business, this sound a lot like certain industry sales people who practice the same way of doing business in their area of doing transactions. They will not reveal their relationship with their customers, so be it. This I guess will never change, it is I guess the way certain business has been done.

Another option is to net work. I know plenty of models who want new clients, a change, a breath of fresh air.  I hear from many models that they are thinking about getting out because it is the same old thing over and over again. Then they reconsider saying the money is easy and good so they keep the life of the model. As Ken Warren has pointed out, and for good reason, the more something changes, the more it stays the same. Perhaps it is because we are all of us human and we enjoy our comforts.

The models are no different in their activities; photographers, MUAs and the like all guard certain things from the unwashed masses. We call these things trade secrets. It offers us a position of power and more to the point a uniqueness that others on the outside don’t have and don’t know.

It is of course can be vary counter productive. The truth is, if you want to do better at any business, modeling, photography, used car parts or picking rags, you better get your business thing on. This of course does not mean that there will be no aesthetics. Good business has at its core a certain idea correct and wrong ways of doing things. Yet it is the business that displays respect and honesty to its customer that get on down the road.

So that is the ol’ business stuff and it is important, no question about that. Yet I sense that there is a bigger issue that is sneaking about in your post. It is that big issue that rears its head and then is quickly shuffled out the door. If not outed, then it is reduced to some sentimental idea about a person doing ‘that’ side of the camera for something other than compensation. TFP is compensation no matter how you hold that leash and try to walk that dog. To actually desire to make art, to be creative, to do the act with no particular notion of any compensation. I do think this is something that needs to be addressed. It needs to be investigated. Here I am not speaking to the persona called photographer, rather I am speaking to that other element of the process.

If this were not a real issue, then I am missing something in a vary large fashion. I think we all would be missing a vary large point. Models want to posses the image as much as the photographer. As much as the MUA wants to be part of the image. Art directors, authors and even the guy who binds the book. Ever one wants to have a slice of the fame that comes with having been part of the making of the image. Thus, I am not seeing some models looking for monetary rewards, rather the part they play in a creative process in the making of art.

What Fun Productions wrote:
There sure are a bunch of words in the OP.

Oh my God, word phobia!

Tim Summa wrote:

Oh my God, word phobia!

with the way you use words, i wouldnt be surprised. lol.

sorry this thread is like  highschool english lit. use as many big words as you can to try and bullshit yourway through terrible grammer, personal antecdotes, and cultural referneces.

i wish i could actually contribute something on topic, but im not sure what that is.

jesse paulk wrote:
with the way you use words, i wouldnt be surprised. lol.

sorry this thread is like  highschool english lit. use as many big words as you can to try and bullshit yourway through terrible grammer, personal antecdotes, and cultural referneces.

i wish i could actually contribute something on topic, but im not sure what that is.

You are just ripping someone with a developmental reading disorder apart...

Tim Summa wrote:
TV I know; the code letters Tyra and ANTM are not something I recognize, being as I am dyslexic.

English is my second language and I understand him just fine. I also think that he brings an interesting perspective, maybe long winded, to the table in reference of certain points he is addressing.

udor wrote:

jesse paulk wrote:
with the way you use words, i wouldnt be surprised. lol.

sorry this thread is like  highschool english lit. use as many big words as you can to try and bullshit yourway through terrible grammer, personal antecdotes, and cultural referneces.

i wish i could actually contribute something on topic, but im not sure what that is.

You are just ripping someone with a developmental reading disorder apart...


English is my second language and I understand him just fine. I also think that he brings an interesting perspective, maybe long winded, to the table in reference of certain points he is addressing.

Lets see, yup, I is dyslexic.

Thank Udor, I guess I best fold the dog and pony show.

The problem with a lot of people on Mayhem is they never learned to think, and have the attention span of a garden snail. God forbid one should actual have a though, but if you can’t put it in the formal context of what the monkeys were trained to do, well then I will just never find happiness; in a pigs eye.

Is that better, not the construct, I speaking to the anger and nastiness. Signature of the forums, and yes, I have spell check back or everyone could entertain themselves with poking fun at the dyslexic boy over his spelling.

udor wrote:

jesse paulk wrote:
with the way you use words, i wouldnt be surprised. lol.

sorry this thread is like  highschool english lit. use as many big words as you can to try and bullshit yourway through terrible grammer, personal antecdotes, and cultural referneces.

i wish i could actually contribute something on topic, but im not sure what that is.

You are just ripping someone with a developmental reading disorder apart...


English is my second language and I understand him just fine. I also think that he brings an interesting perspective, maybe long winded, to the table in reference of certain points he is addressing.

im dyslexic and had no problem understanding him and how gratutious he was making the whole thing.

Tim Summa wrote:

Lets see, yup, I is dyslexic.

Thank Udor, I guess I best fold the dog and pony show.

The problem with a lot of people on Mayhem is they never learned to think, and have the attention span of a garden snail. God forbid one should actual have a though, but if you can’t put it in the formal context of what the monkeys were trained to do, well then I will just never find happiness; in a pigs eye.

Is that better, not the construct, I speaking to the anger and nastiness. Signature of the forums, and yes, I have spell check back or everyone could entertain themselves with poking fun at the dyslexic boy over his spelling.

spelling and grammer are two different things. spell check wont save you from grammer errors.

Tim Summa wrote:
The problem with a lot of people on Mayhem is they never learned to think, and have the attention span of a garden snail. God forbid one should actual have a though, but if you can’t put it in the formal context of what the monkeys were trained to do, well then I will just never find happiness; in a pigs eye.

Is that better, not the construct, I speaking to the anger and nastiness. Signature of the forums, and yes, I have spell check back or everyone could entertain themselves with poking fun at the dyslexic boy over his spelling.

Dyslexia has nothing to do with your bombastic bloviation. Spelling may be the least of your issues in this thread. You're trying to show off and you're doing a piss-poor job of it. Quit trying to act like you're so much above others here. Attention spans of snails? Monkeys? Forget about spelling. Just quit acting like you're a college professor trying to educate the lesser primates.

Tim Summa wrote:
So, any thoughts, ideas as you sit hunched over in your dingy awaiting something to happen?

Not many, no.

The train you describe, garageglamour => OMP => ModelMayhem, I suspect, are reflections of your own experience and not the world at large.

Garageglamour was niche. OMP got unwieldy and, frankly, stupid from the casual-browser standpoint. MM still works because it has a more universal approach. But "more" doesn't mean "entirely." There's still Craigslist, generic Google/other searches, IRC (anyone remember that?), things like modellocate, random chat places, and countless other venues that offer interactions.

I think - not sure, but I think - that what you're looking for is something where earnest models and photographers can come together with common goals, common ideals, and common respect.

Won't happen. In a world where so many connections are made largely anonymously, it doesn't happen.

Now, past the dismissive guys who snort dismissive posts, and the earnest folks who reply earnestly, I think that MM is as good as it gets for what you're looking for. It has a range of talent, model/photographer/other, who can scope out each others' work, ask for referrals, and get their due diligence done to the extent possible.

It's an interesting question but one, I believe, without a definitive answer. Some are more focused and sincere than others, no doubt. Good luck in sorting through that. It's a big wide Internet with lots of possibilities.