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Is Retouching a Race to the Bottom?
I'm sure you have all seen the post for 5 dollar retouching. But as a community and a industry what are we doing? Are we just going to under bid under cut and scream at people to give us work? From my view points the industry is stagnate. We don't have the tools like other high end creative industrys that empower smart artist to rise to the top, Such as VFX ( VFX has it's own industry issues). There is Photoshop. Remarkably unchanged over the last decade and empowered by a company content on every Joe, Jim and Sally feeling like the technology is assessable and will do their work for them. Why is this conversation not being had? And what can we do about the over all quality of Artist who deserve the work. Yet barely scrape by as they see poor photoshop composites on every billboard, bus and subway ride they take. Aug 02 14 10:37 am Link samething happens to photography, how do you deal with it? Aug 02 14 10:58 am Link Nathanfx wrote: I would give you an honest answer but the rules don't allow unsolicited critique. Aug 02 14 11:00 am Link Natalia_Taffarel wrote: Natalia beat me to it.. Aug 02 14 11:03 am Link Its not about being cheaper, its about having a voice in the midst of noise. And to the outsider what direction do you choose when a majority of it is screaming out for attention. Don't you see a lot of what's on the internet is forcing us to take a stance of under cutting each other? Instead of a community coming together and saying 'this is not what we stand for' Are we actively making efforts to filter it out, are we acting together to make sure we set standards because everyone else sure is setting the bar low. Can we come together and have a voice on what is good is what is bad. Because we are demonized for as poisoning the culture with false expectations, and trends everyone strives for often reflect inhuman portrayals. Aug 02 14 11:54 am Link How many retouchers have taken a class in anatomy? And who is out there saying hey this is the standard we are setting to stand by. You can color out side the lines but as a community and industry we stand by these expectations. We have no public face, no authority, no guilds or honorary societys to say hey we recognized you put in work and have skill so we will stand by you. Actors have Sag, make up artist have their own organizations that put you through the ringers to insure standards and to protect talent. Aug 02 14 12:11 pm Link Nathanfx wrote: We don't need them. Aug 02 14 12:55 pm Link Nathanfx wrote: Have you? I haven't Aug 02 14 12:58 pm Link Nathanfx wrote: Is not forcing us to do shit! Nathanfx wrote: Careful what you wish for Nathanfx wrote: This last sentence is completely unrelated to the rest of your rant Aug 02 14 01:03 pm Link Just wait till Wal-Mart offers retouching  Aug 02 14 01:08 pm Link PrimePix wrote: they do here Aug 02 14 01:11 pm Link What you see and what the general viewing public sees are two different things. If the general public doesn't see the cheap/fast/get it out work for what it is, then the advertiser producer has done their job. And at a savings. So while YOU might spend 20 billable hours retouching a single image for a billboard, if they accept the bid of the retoucher who bills 3, for an acceptable result, then that's just the free market working. Photoshop is mature. It's accessible to just about anyone. And while the learning curve is steep to most, it's not insurmountable. If you want to create art, then create art. But most artists eat Ramen noodles and live with 4 or 5 other artists in a two bedroom dump. Aug 02 14 01:14 pm Link PrimePix wrote: Costco is already offering it. So Walmart is not far away. Aug 02 14 01:22 pm Link Natalia_Taffarel wrote: LOL!! you guys. . . Aug 02 14 01:24 pm Link This is no different then a photographer complaining they are "loosing" business to Craig's list. The person who buys a $5 retouch is never going to spend hundreds (or more) and simply isn't the customer of a good retoucher. If a retoucher wants to get paid amounts similar to Natalia then they better provide a service similar. That is more than just the technical skill of retouching, it's about the service she is providing (for example) Aug 02 14 01:24 pm Link Good Egg Productions wrote: But that's not how it works - usually billboard work is very well paid - I don't know about the OP city... But usually in all the countries I've been to. Aug 02 14 01:32 pm Link Anyone can go buy a hammer. A lot of people can build things. A lot of people can build houses. A lot of people can build complex, architectural buildings. I've never felt like I was loosing out on business to "$5 retouchers." They offer a different style than my own. If there's someone who sees that work and thinks they can provide enough of what they're looking for, then what's the problem? No body is entitled to more work simply because they feel they spent more time on something. All that's going to matter is your end result. I'd ditch that mentality that people setting the bar low, unless you plan on making sure you set the bar 100 times higher than that. In which case, the only people's work you should be looking at with a magnifying glass is your own, which I recommend. And...maybe some people who inspire you.  Aug 02 14 01:36 pm Link I don't believe it's a race to the bottom, but some budgets aren't what they used to be. Retouching has been my profession for close to fourteen years, and it's been good to me. I do think that vfx, finishing and grading will eventually go the same route as stills though. Twenty ish years ago, some digital retouchers were working on proprietary expensive systems like the Quantel Paintbox and Shima Seiki and retouching studios could legitimately charge hundreds or thousands per hour for their services due to the fact that not too many people had access to the technology. A baselight session now can be billed at $800/hr, but perhaps in twenty years or less, with computing power increasing the way it is, systems like Baselight will be made obsolete by a similar democratizing program much the way Photoshop killed the paintbox. Aug 02 14 02:20 pm Link That was weird. Hang on. Let me try that again. Aug 02 14 02:40 pm Link Natalia_Taffarel wrote: I'm talking like for smaller markets. Like a local law firm's billboards. Not Coke or Taco Bell. Aug 02 14 02:42 pm Link Natalia_Taffarel wrote: So...funny story about testing/TF and I'm quoting you since you brought it up, but this is more directed at the OP: Aug 02 14 02:42 pm Link The tone in this post is similar to several other retouchers that I have seen here on the forum, it's basically "Why am I not attracting the quality of clients that I deserve ?" It's basically the voice of an individual who feels that they are being overlooked and mistreated by their industry of choice. Being a Professional Retoucher is similar to any other fields in that you have to build your brand, find your niche and let potential clients see the value of choosing you over the next guy or gal. It rarely happens overnight and usually requires "years" focus and dedication. The idea of "Build it and they will come" is not realistic, you have to let them (potential clients) know it's there and it's something they should be checking out and investing in. You are continuously developing your skills, continually learning and continuously letting others know what you have to offer. There will always be cheaper "Always", the focus should be on making sure that there is not an equal comparison of what you have to offer versus the cheaper person. I have seen Natalia mention repeatedly on numerous posts, that basically if you have your eyes on the $5 retoucher as your main competition, you need to see what you are doing and how you can make it better. You also touched on how Photoshop has not really changed for over a decade and I thought that comment was a bit strange. I have been using Photoshop for a many years, through many iterations and there has been many significant changes for the better. I think in your mind, if the software is not totally unrecognizable to people who have been using it for years, then it has not been improved enough, but why would they do something that crazy ? You build on a foundation, you don't totally alienate those who have grown with your brand. Retouching is an art in my opinion and as with any art there is no one retouching style that is best for everyone. So to think that having a main gatekeeper to say what is allowed or not, may not be the right direction. People in general can have very different tastes, what I may think is the best ever, will not be the same for everyone else. We currently have a wide variety between amateur to pro, I see nothing wrong with it. The best thing is that we have many who have made it out of the barrel of crabs and have created blueprints as to how they made it out. This is what works for me: 1. Do the research. 2. Work on your craft. Work on your craft. Work on your craft. Work on your craft. 3. Make it be known that you are here (Promotion). 4. Pay attention to what works and tune everything else out (Tune out the noise). 5. Help those you can, when you can. Aug 02 14 02:53 pm Link Tincture wrote: The guy who owned a retouchers (had 3 retouchers working for him) set up cost him for drum scanner 10x8, Quantel Paintbox $1 million ! this was many years ago. Aug 02 14 04:28 pm Link If all you have to offer is lower price, just remember there is always someone else who is willing to go broke faster than you. And the reason some people tend to compete on price alone is because it's easy to copy what they can do. Therefore they can only compete on price. And that is an ugly place to be indeed. If you want better clients and more money for your work, you have to get creative and innovate. Business is essentially two things. Innovation + Marketing. Innovation is what gives you leverage, marketing is what gives you audience. It's that simple and that hard. Now, get to work. Stop complaining and start competing. Aug 02 14 07:22 pm Link Why are you scrambling around bottom-feeding with the same clients $5 retouchers attract? Identify your potential clients - there's a whole industry out there that actually immediately eliminates the cheap service providers for a variety of business reasons (and this is by no means limited to retouching). Identify the right client type and they'll eliminate the $5 bottom feeders for you. But you have to be good - you have to be proven and consistent in quality and delivery at the level they require. Aug 02 14 09:46 pm Link J O H N A L L A N wrote: And it may get even cheaper, P'shop and image retouching is no longer a exclusive product for the skilled now you have tutorials of Youtube and c/d's/ tutorials from people like Natalia.... lots of Natalia's ! eekkk. Aug 03 14 03:04 am Link I dont understand the issue here, there are rates according skills and talent. How can someone who just starting to learn retouching or composition has the highest rates. I have seen people with no skill and vision having crazy huge rates and people paying asap, yeah this is an issue. Aug 03 14 04:34 am Link Joe Diamond wrote: No different from models who have a few selfies on MM their a model same as retouchers ' I have Photoshop therefore I'm a retoucher '. Aug 03 14 05:53 am Link Nathanfx wrote: The threat you've described has little bearing on you as an artist. Aug 03 14 08:12 am Link Joe Diamond wrote: Really? Aug 03 14 08:42 am Link Tomiya wrote: wow...memorable Aug 03 14 10:38 am Link Natalia_Taffarel wrote: I am not talking about commercial market but Mm market and i am not allowed to say but i will send you the link on private Aug 04 14 01:00 am Link Natalia_Taffarel wrote: I think this comment makes a lot of sense Aug 04 14 05:51 am Link I think a lot of it is retouchers trying to focus on doing things that really just aren't in demand or thinking that they are above doing bulk production work when they aren't. I was looking through local ad agencies the other day, and by local I mean we have some larger national ones here in town http://tcbmag.com/Lists-and-Research/BI … oPid=18833 I really do see a lot of focus on skin and beauty retouching. They do a lot of products, lifestyle, composits, and other things you see in advertising. Now mabe we just don't have that market here, but if I were looking to get a job retouching these would be the companies I would deal with. Likewise, for my headshots, at $150-200 I just don't and won't have a budget to spend more than $10-15 max on retouching (per image). My clients aren't demanding it, a really high level of detail would be overkill, and $20-30 per image is just out of the question at my rates (which seem to be the going rate here for good shots). So I'm just not sure where everyond thinks this market is for the types of retouching they are doing. Even some top posters here and so called experts can't give examples of recent client work beyond workshops or the odd jobs for hobby photographers. I'm also not sure what's wrong with $5 bulk retouching. If I have a 30 image set and just need them cleaned up, and can do them myself in 3 hours or so, then what's wrong with banging them out in a hour or two (since someone who does this would be more efficent than me) and making $150? What's really wrong with $20-30 an hour going through wedding photos and cleaning them up? And, even at $5 an image, I'm only getting $300-350 for fashion portfolios, on the lower side but with makeup and hair things easily get into the $500+ range for clients, and $150 is a big chunk of that. So again, I'm just wondering where all this high paid work is for retouchers, as its not with those of us doing consumer based work for the most part. Granted, at those rates and levels of work you wouldn't get to do pixel level dodge and burn, but I really have to wonder how large of a market that is anyway. IMO do good work faster and then approach local wedding photographers and explain how you can make their lives easier. Or, talk to the ad agencies and try to get in with them and work your way up. You know, and I look at the work from some who thumb their nose at bulk retouching and honestly I wouldn't even consider them for that let alone anything higher with more levels of detail. Andrew Thomas Evans www.andrewthomasevans.com Aug 04 14 06:20 am Link Without getting too far into this, I'd simply like to make an observation. You may make of it what you will. Fifteen years ago, I had a friend who was making a nice extra income from repairing printers and computers. That 'business' no longer exists. Things change and you're free to rant against the wind, but it's hardly likely your screams will make any difference regarding which way it blows. Aug 04 14 06:53 am Link The business model of just doing it cheaper.. is a lose/lose situation. You'll find it most every industry. People who cater to it are hurting themselves as much as their industry. But I'd argue that they are mostly hurting the bottom rungs of their industries. I'd also argue that those that those offering services on price alone, are not really in the "industry", especially when it comes to retouching or photography. Value does not necessarily mean cheap. Most people who are looking for, and recognize real quality work are not interested in price over quality. All that said, there will always be a market for "cheap/good enough" services. Aug 04 14 06:56 am Link Andrew Thomas Evans wrote: Two different industries. Aug 04 14 07:04 am Link I think you're on your own here Nathan. The rest of the retouchers here hit on the point I was trying to drive from our discussion in Facebook. I was just a little nicer. Aug 05 14 11:57 am Link I see a lot of things I don't like working in the industries I work in and I have a mantra: I can only do what I can do. Just worry about your own integrity and do what you think is right for you. If you spend all your time worrying about what everyone else is doing, you'll drive yourself crazy. Set your own rates and guidelines and stick to them and let everyone else do whatever it is they're going to do. They're going to do it anyway. If you focus on you, you can sleep soundly at night knowing that you're at least improving things by one person. In other words, if you disagree with those rates, just ignore them and don't participate in the "race to the bottom". Just focus on why people should pay you more than the other service providers. If someone bullies you about not charging those $5 rates, politely decline to work with them and move on if that's what you feel is right. Personally, I prefer working with a handful of higher paying clients to a huge number of lower paying ones. Sure, it means a lot of rejection from people looking for lower rates, but it also lets me know that my clients are with me because we're a good fit and not just because I was the best bargain. That said, I'm still pretty reasonable. I'm not on the top end of the price scale by any means. It's important to figure out where to price yourself based on your skill level. Aug 05 14 01:05 pm Link Chuckarelei wrote: Im pretty sure my new Nikon D610 is offering it too, but I'm waiting for Natalia to endorse it first. Aug 06 14 06:41 am Link |
