Garry k wrote:
I am trying really hard to envision open leg with what I consider "Art " and somehow I just don't think it would work ...but maybe its me

Have you ever heard of L'Origine du Monde, by Gustave Courbet? If not, please look it up.

Ken Warren Photography wrote:

Have you ever heard of L'Origine du Monde, by Gustave Courbet? If not, please look it up.

Can that be posted here without a link ?
Paintings 18+ ???

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

Can that be posted here without a link ?
Paintings 18+ ???

Nope.

You can't even post the 'Love is...' cartoons here without a link.

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Have you ever heard of L'Origine du Monde, by Gustave Courbet? If not, please look it up.

Found it!
http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2014/06/0 … 05x453.jpg

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Have you ever heard of L'Origine du Monde, by Gustave Courbet? If not, please look it up.

Wandering Eyebubble wrote:
Or Egon Schiele.

I have posed like that for artists and photographers I am comfortable with in the past, and see nothing wrong with it. The Courbert painting is very bold and real, what's wrong with the reality of how a nude female looks down there? Schiele's work is very beautiful and artistically appealing as well.

I was a muse for one artist over a period of time when I was in my mid-50s, spending hours at a time nude in his studio while he drew and photographed me, and we had frequently done work using Schiele and Klimt for pose ideas.

One day he asked if I would be comfortable allowing him to do artwork directly and specifically focused on my genital area. I agreed, and laid on a table in his studio for an hour with my legs spread while he drew and took photos for reference to work from in the future. I'd do it again if I was certain the intention was purely artistic, and particularly if I knew the result would be of the quality of Courbet or Schiele and end up in a gallery.

lynne g wrote:
Lol! This reminded me of the catheterization video they showed in 101! The only woman willing to shoot it was an adult film star! Bwhaha! And I assure you the meatus is no vagina! Haha! So here's the medical video and the women has full puffy hair and club makeup and is breathlessly whispering as the video "nurse" is about to insert the foley. So maybe they only ask "certain people" to do those close ups end thread jack

In my grad program we had medically trained model/actors who were actually so good that they were part of the evaluation team of clinical skills for the gyn exams for the Nurse practitioner program.
Jen
edit: I left the program before the nurse practitioner certification portion, (just completed the degree and opted to return later for the NP certification in the specialty I decide upon.)

Miss 5 11 wrote:
Very helpful advice. That is what I've decided to do. I'll Just wait till the photographer asks for open leg during the shoot and reward him with the welcome surprise of compliance.

...

Whoa,
Edit to change my wording...

I really have nothing to add except that I now prefer to fully have a clear mutual understanding of the intended shoot prior to it and if they turn out to be a misunderstanding, will respectfully cancel the shoot and leave.

However, if you feel safe in compliance with an unclear boundary then the photographer you are shooting with was sort of reckless or coercive to ask you 'last minute.' Then again, reward and compliance in the idea of open leg does not fit my paradigm.
Jen

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Have you ever heard of L'Origine du Monde, by Gustave Courbet? If not, please look it up.

Wandering Eyebubble wrote:
Or Egon Schiele.

MatureModelMM wrote:
I have posed like that for artists and photographers I am comfortable with in the past, and see nothing wrong with it. The Courbert painting is very bold and real, what's wrong with the reality of how a nude female looks down there? Schiele's work is very beautiful and artistically appealing as well.

I was a muse for one artist over a period of time, spending hours at a time nude in his studio while he drew and photographed me, and we had frequently done work using Schiele and Klimt for pose ideas.

One day he asked if I would be comfortable allowing him to do artwork directly and specifically focused on my genital area. I agreed, and laid on a table in his studio for an hour with my legs spread while he drew and took photos for reference to work from in the future. I'd do it again if I was certain the intention was purely artistic, and particularly if I knew the result would be of the quality of Courbet or Schiele and end up in a gallery.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with it. I have a framed print of L'Origine du Monde hanging in my office at home. I brought it up as a counter-example to someone who had said that they didn't see "open leg" as being artistic.

That said, I don't shoot "open leg", in that I've never asked a model to spread her legs for me so I can take a picture of her crotch. I'm not shy about the curves and folds between a woman's legs (I mean, curves and folds = highlight and shadow, so what's not to like?) but my vision doesn't require me to make them the subject of the photograph.

Miss 5 11 wrote:
...
However I'm still left wondering how I can capitalise on my lack of inhibition and willingness to do more revealing poses and signal this advantage over other models in my profile somewhere. This is where your advice is also so good. Just convey it not in words but in pictures in my port. That should do it. I think photographers are good at picking exactly what they want in a potential model by what they see.
...

I think you're already doing this in your port. It's clear to me from looking at your work that you're comfortable in your own skin.

It's a shame you're from (literally) the opposite side of the planet.

Ken Warren Photography wrote:

Have you ever heard of L'Origine du Monde, by Gustave Courbet? If not, please look it up.

A true anomaly in the history of pre contemporary painting

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
I think you're already doing this in your port. It's clear to me from looking at your work that you're comfortable in your own skin.

It's a shame you're from (literally) the opposite side of the planet.

There are models here who are also comfortable in their own skin.

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
I think you're already doing this in your port. It's clear to me from looking at your work that you're comfortable in your own skin.

It's a shame you're from (literally) the opposite side of the planet.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
There are models here who are also comfortable in their own skin.

Lots. Some local to me, some travel. So I make do.

Miss 5 11 wrote:
Very helpful advice. That is what I've decided to do. I'll Just wait till the photographer asks for open leg during the shoot and reward him with the welcome surprise of compliance.

However I'm still left wondering how I can capitalise on my lack of inhibition and willingness to do more revealing poses and signal this advantage over other models in my profile somewhere. This is where your advice is also so good. Just convey it not in words but in pictures in my port. That should do it. I think photographers are good at picking exactly what they want in a potential model by what they see.

Some girl's ports are tame yet they will agree to more revealing poses on application. Quietly. They receive the advantage of a higher fee at the time of email negotiations. I have a photographer who says "It doesn't hurt to ask" and he gets what he wants. 'Ask and you shall receive'. I forget who said that…. someone wise.

My suggestion would be as some of the models mentioned earlier.  Don't post a set rate on your profile.  Instead when contacted by a photographer ask for details on what they want to shoot.  If they want more explicit shots you can offer a higher rate than if they want the more typical art nude poses. 

As a photographer I don't have a set hourly rate but rather quote based on what the job involves once I know the details.

Garry k wrote:

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Have you ever heard of L'Origine du Monde, by Gustave Courbet? If not, please look it up.

A true anomaly in the history of pre contemporary painting

True scotsman.

That which you cannot imagine does not, of necessity, fail to exist.

Wandering Eyebubble wrote:
Or Egon Schiele...

Thanks for that.

It took me awhile to grok his painting "Masturbation". Hard to imagine he did such works in the early 1900s.

Garry k wrote:
A true anomaly in the history of pre contemporary painting

But isn't every great work of art an anomaly?



Don't look at the link your head'll explode.

http://www.greatwallofvagina.co.uk/home  18+

Jeffrey M Fletcher wrote:

But isn't every great work of art an anomaly?



Don't look at the link your head'll explode.

http://www.greatwallofvagina.co.uk/home  18+

Here is an interesting background article on this work

( plus 18 )

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/0 … 56309.html

Garry k wrote:

Here is an interesting background article on this work

( plus 18 )

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/0 … 56309.html

Great article as well.

MedievalIce wrote:
One potential problem that I could see is that you may inadvertently price yourself out of traditional art market.  While there may be some demand for an art nude model who is more comfortable with open leg poses, I would guess that most of your assignments would be from photographers looking for open leg poses, and that would become the bulk of what you would do.  Meanwhile the photographers who are less interested in open leg poses may move on to more affordable models.

I am in your market and I suspect that the above is exactly what would happen.

At $100/hr, you have already priced yourself at the very top of the Australian art market and are competing with more experienced models who are happy with a significantly lower fee. 

At $150/hr, you will move yourself into an entirely different market.

You may find it instructive to study the local casting calls and availability notices to get a clearer idea of market dynamics.

Miss 5 11 wrote:
I'm still left wondering how I can capitalise on my lack of inhibition and willingness to do more revealing poses and signal this advantage over other models in my profile somewhere.

Keep in mind that lack of inhibition is just one factor in the equation and that being less inhibited will help you close the gap between models who may have better posing skills or a different look and that lack of inhibition is not a deciding factor in itself.

Miss 5 11 wrote:
Some girl's ports are tame yet they will agree to more revealing poses on application. Quietly. They receive the advantage of a higher fee at the time of email negotiations.

Be careful of making assumptions about other models and their remuneration. 

Excluding GWCs, I think that there are very few photographers who have either the time or the inclination (or the naivete) to try to coax "tame portfolio" models into more adventurous enterprises. If it is not already in their portfolio or their credited photos, it is a waste of time trying to make it happen (some newbie models excepted).

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Consequences can be extensive. I know a model who did some and lost a job years later because they were still on the net. I started as an art nude model but don't like gratuitous stuff myself so didn't want to do it. However, some of my fashion clients - designers, boutiques,etc were concerned I may have done 'worse' and it may affect their branding. Luckily I hadn't; but was several times called on to defend it.

So be careful.

Short and to the point.

Miss 5 11 wrote:
I'm thinking of putting up my fee to $150/hr for art nude.

My fee for art nude now is $100/hr for poses you'd see in paintings in the National Gallery but I sense that photographers always have that touchy question in the back of their mind....

"Will you open your legs please"?

I oblige because I'm uninhibited and, as I'm naked anyway, why not show completely that I'm female. Celebrate that I have a vagina, why hide the fact? Why feel shame?

But I'm wondering if perhaps I should be charging more since I'm willing to go that extra mile and reveal more.

So I thought I'd put these questions out there.

1. Does open leg style art nude give better value than the less revealing style.

2. Therefore should it be a paid more?

3. What are the consequences if I do open leg style?

4. Does it matter to anyone really?

I'd like to hear from models that do and those who don't and their reasons. And from photographers who find asking for open leg difficult and those who are comfortable and get what they want. Do you pay extra... Like a tip if the girl gives a little more.

If shooting open leg, that should be agreed upon BEFORE the "will you open your legs please?" IMHO.

This is my experience:
1. Open leg pictures sell, artsy nudes not so much, really.
2. That depends on your market and style. If you sell at 150/h go for it.
3. Severe, so don't shoot pictures you will regret. Internet is FOREVER!
4. It matters to YOU. It's ultimately your own desicion, your life, and your future. You may meet obstacles later in life if you do open leg nudies...

London Fog wrote:

Thank you for that insight Jerry, whatever would we do without ever having known that!

LMAO!

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
Found it!
http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2014/06/0 … 05x453.jpg

http://news.artnet.com/art-world/artist … hink-35011

The artist that recently tried to recreate the piece:

On May 29 the Luxembourgian performance artist Deborah de Robertis visited Paris’s Musée d’Orsay, sat down in front of Gustave Courbet’s infamous 1866 painting L’Origine du monde (Origin of the World), and recreated the iconic image in the flesh. In a video of the piece, titled Mirror of Origin, the artist can be seen dressed in a gold sequin dress, exposing her vagina while the museum’s security guards crowding around her and usher cheering visitors out of the gallery. The artist was eventually taken away by police. The museum and two of its guards have filed sexual exhibitionism complaints against the artist.

The Artist explained:

“If you ignore the context, you could construe this performance as an act of exhibitionism, but what I did was not an impulsive act,” De Robertis told Luxemburger Wort. “There is a gap in art history, the absent point of view of the object of the gaze. In his realist painting, the painter shows the open legs, but the vagina remains closed. He does not reveal the hole, that is to say, the eye. I am not showing my vagina, but I am revealing what we do not see in the painting, the eye of the vagina, the black hole, this concealed eye, this chasm, which, beyond the flesh, refers to infinity, to the origin of the origin.”

Story continues,  See link.

CHAD ALAN wrote:

I agree, that people might be willing to pay more to see the whole enchilada, but are those the kinds of artists you want to work with anyway?

I'd just set one rate, and discuss what you're comfortable showing, based on the hiring artist's concept, work and your interest in it.

I agree.  I only shoot TF but I'm sure that I'd walk away from a model with tiered rates within a shoot.  I have no problem with graduated rates as a starting point or rates based on usage, but I would certainly balk at "the first hour fully clothed at $X and the second nude at $Y plus $Z per flash.  I think it would cheapen both parties.  I have no objection to that system in a strip club, where it's pretty much standard procedure, but I don't think it has any place in a photography studio.

All IMHO as always, of course.

Miss 5 11 wrote:
I have settled on a solution I'm happy with. It's simple, clearer for photographers to understand and I hope puts an end to confusion or vague boundries.

I keep my art nude and my explicit posing separate and charge accordingly.

$100/hr Art Nude

$150/hr Explicit

I already have bookings for explicit and everyone knows what they can expect at the shoot.

My new boundary is No Toys or POV sex acts with the photographer. I see nothing wrong with these things if done with respect, they serve a need for some viewers and I admire the girls that can serve that need but it would require a mentality on my part I just don't have, at least at this time.

This could be my next thread. When does explicit become porn?

Or. What's wrong with porn again?

Or to paraphrase a recent Billie JD Porter BBC documentary.  Porn:What's the harm?

I'd love to know your opinions on all this.

If you're in a market that can support that rate good for you.

I see nothing wrong with porn if you're happy shooting it and safe about it so you don't catch anything. That being said I don't think explicit nudes are always porn. The biggest problem with porn are the judgements other people place on the people making it.

I personally don't feel that anything in my port is porn. But I'm sure some would disagree.

Miss 5 11 wrote:
I have settled on a solution I'm happy with. It's simple, clearer for photographers to understand and I hope puts an end to confusion or vague boundries.

I keep my art nude and my explicit posing separate and charge accordingly.

$100/hr Art Nude

$150/hr Explicit

I already have bookings for explicit and everyone knows what they can expect at the shoot.

My new boundary is No Toys or POV sex acts with the photographer. I see nothing wrong with these things if done with respect, they serve a need for some viewers and I admire the girls that can serve that need but it would require a mentality on my part I just don't have, at least at this time.

This could be my next thread. When does explicit become porn?

Or. What's wrong with porn again?

Or to paraphrase a recent Billie JD Porter BBC documentary.  Porn:What's the harm?

I'd love to know your opinions on all this.

David Stone Imaging wrote:

THIS +1,000,000

It is always nice when a model is OK with labia exposure.  But some models will lock knees in every pose you want to go through...which is unnatural.

Your 150 rate would also be high in my area...unless you had 100 for normal nudes...and 150 for explicit erotic modeling.  But a shoot that is entirely open leg sounds more like someone shooting images intended to sexually excite (porn), while you seem to be oriented towards art?

I agree with this assessment. But I'd also like to point out...an extremely beautiful woman's HEADSHOT may sexually excite me. I just think people can find sexual excitement in many different types of images...to me it's human nature...

Ken Warren Photography wrote:

Have you ever heard of L'Origine du Monde, by Gustave Courbet? If not, please look it up.

That's like the only one from that era or before

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

That's like the only one from that era or before

Leonardo da Vinci. Hieronymus Bosch. Sandro Botticelli. Those are just names that pop immediately to mind, there are others I'm not thinking of.

Courbet wasn't the first (nowhere near it), though he was, perhaps, the most "in your face" through the close of the 19th century.