Camerosity wrote:
To a large extent it's in the eye of the beholder. Some people love my style. Some hate it. Depends on whom you ask.

I like your work Dave, no worries. Much respect.

The worst thing that I can be called is a "Serious Amateur",  that is hurtful language.

I think that the level of effort shows, eye level point and click vs. building sets and getting the coolest shot in camera, differentiates the poser from the pro.  In all fairness, I am not in competition with anybody, still learning every shoot.

Mike

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
We can all appreciate a variety of work, but there is a natural way that we see the world.  Understanding what that is for each of us, I think, is key to developing beyond the mere technical.

AJ_In_Atlanta wrote:
It's that way we see the world that defines our style, it's not some presets in ligthroom but our fingerprint on life.

I agree.  And this can be taught - well, not taught so much as guided by a series of exercises (the classic mock portfolio exercise being one).  This sort of dovetails into the other thread about learning how to think...  But, in any case, I find many young photographers (and artists in general) don't really spend much time thinking about this, other than perhaps to apply a shotgun approach to creating, simply continuing to do whatever it is they enjoy with very little critical thought behind the work they're creating or why they're creating it.  Gregory Crewdson, at a lecture/review at Yale, kept saying "what's at stake".  Meaning what's at stake for you, personally, in the image.  What are you revealing about yourself that actually matters? 

This has nothing to do with the technical nature of photography, but everything to do with, let's not call it "art" because that's too loaded a term, self-expression. 

I firmly believe that every artist of any worth is constantly telling and retelling the same basic story over and over and over.  They just keep exploring it differently, examining it from different angles, drilling deeper and deeper.  The stories ay look widely different at the surface, but if you dig deep enough, you see the constant thread.  If you haven't read it, I highly recommend Huxley's "On Art and Artists" (this book changed my life). 

This kind of narrative comes from within, it was probably formed before we even understood it, and it is what drives us, often without our knowledge, through life.  To be able to identify it and understand why that story is important to us, why we need to keep going back obsessively to to explore it...  These are the first real steps we take.  Everything else is just mechanics.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
I agree.  And this can be taught - well, not taught so much as guided by a series of exercises (the classic mock portfolio exercise being one).  This sort of dovetails into the other thread about learning how to think...  But, in any case, I find many young photographers (and artists in general) don't really spend much time thinking about this, other than perhaps to apply a shotgun approach to creating, simply continuing to do whatever it is they enjoy with very little critical thought behind the work they're creating or why they're creating it.  Gregory Crewdson, at a lecture/review at Yale, kept saying "what's at stake".  Meaning what's at stake for you, personally, in the image.  What are you revealing about yourself that actually matters? 

This has nothing to do with the technical nature of photography, but everything to do with, let's not call it "art" because that's too loaded a term, self-expression. 

I firmly believe that every artist of any worth is constantly telling and retelling the same basic story over and over and over.  They just keep exploring it differently, examining it from different angles, drilling deeper and deeper.  The stories ay look widely different at the surface, but if you dig deep enough, you see the constant thread.  If you haven't read it, I highly recommend Huxley's "On Art and Artists" (this book changed my life). 

This kind of narrative comes from within, it was probably formed before we even understood it, and it is what drives us, often without our knowledge, through life.  To be able to identify it and understand why that story is important to us, why we need to keep going back obsessively to to explore it...  These are the first real steps we take.  Everything else is just mechanics.

Actually that is one of the reasons I feel all serious photographers sould build a printed portfolio.  Perparing for your first portfolio review is amazingly valuable - even before you ever get a critique.  Too many these days want to just toss some shit on an iPad and see what people have to say before figuring out what it is they want to say.

Oh and I read Huxley in school, it was part of what I considered a good photography education.  I do wish they spent more time on business in school (I later learned that working for my MBA).  I think they do a little better with that these days mind you.  Still I am a firm believer in the idea that one should always be learning.

AJ_In_Atlanta wrote:

It's that way we see the world that defines our style, it's not some presets in ligthroom but our fingerprint on life.

As elegantly put as I have ever heard.   ;-)

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
Gregory Crewdson, at a lecture/review at Yale, kept saying "what's at stake".  Meaning what's at stake for you, personally, in the image.  What are you revealing about yourself that actually matters?

Did he say what his thoughts were when the answer was nothing?

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
Gregory Crewdson, at a lecture/review at Yale, kept saying "what's at stake".  Meaning what's at stake for you, personally, in the image.  What are you revealing about yourself that actually matters?

Daniel wrote:
Did he say what his thoughts were when the answer was nothing?

He simply just exhibited general disgust and dismissiveness, which was shared by the rest of the faculty, the graduate students.  LOL

Ok, that may be a bit over the top, but it's pretty close.  The honest answer to your questions, based on the MFA program as a whole?  Figure it out or get out...

If the answer is truly "nothing" then there's no reason for you to be engaging in any form of self-expression made for the consumption of others.  What the hell are you communicating, if that's the case?  Why should they spend their time considering what it is you have to say, if you don't even know why you're saying it?

Now, the answer is almost never really "nothing", which is a big part of what the program is about - helping students to discover these things.

Julian  W I L D E wrote:

As elegantly put as I have ever heard.   ;-)

Thank you sir

AJ_In_Atlanta wrote:

Yet you have never shared any of this with MM.

Dragonflies tell no tales

Derek Ridgers wrote:
I completely disagree with this.  When I look at a photograph, how much effort someone put into it is completely irrelevant.

There are some exceptions that prove this rule though.  Into that category I would place the photographer Sebastião Salgado.

yeah no one really cares about how much time and effort someone puts into a shot. The proof is in the pudding.

If the pudding tastes like crap ain't nobody eatin' it no matter how hard and how long you worked on it.

If there's no pudding . . . well then it's easy to claim you make great pudding isn't it.

But most likely you are only fooling yourself

TaylorScott Photography wrote:
I was flipping through MM when I came across something about "lower quality photographers". Is there such a thing? This person must have been taking about the "GWC", or the guy that shows up to a photoshoot and with a high-end point and shoot camera.

Just because one is a 'professional" photographer does not automatically make their work "higher quality."

Mike Collins wrote:
From my experience?  Those that boast how fantastic they are, usually aren't.  Those who are passionate about what they do and are very humble are usually better than most.

+1. From my experience, boastfulness goes hand in hand with insecurity. 

Derek Ridgers wrote:
In my years working as an editorial portrait photographer, I met a lot of people who were at the top of whatever it was they did and I found humility to be very rare among all those involved in the arts.
I think this is because many of them have a fanbase and they are constantly being told how wonderful they are.
The world of sport is an exception. 
The World champions and Olympic gold medal winners I photographed all seemed very humble.
I think this is because, in sport, there is always a winner and a loser and it’s far less about opinions.

I think the exception is the arts, not the world of sport. Perhaps artists live in a reality distortion field where perception is reality? Take gangster rappers for example….. :-P It’s hard to find a humbler bunch.

I ran across an amazing well known photographer recently who had set their profile to ‘no experience.’ The experience field on MM is a waste of megabytes. My suggestion: rename it ‘favorite color.’

Experience is what we all get by showing up. With experience comes mistakes. Some people learn from theirs, some do not. Therefore, it’s a meaningless indicator of ability.

ZMPHOT   wrote:
…When one sees over exposed, or underexposed images in a portfolio, poorly composed, bad color balance, poorly cropped pics , bad flare.  One can assume that the photographer does not really understand fine work or has little desire for perfection or is a complete GWC who may even have expensive, great equipment but does not know how to  use the tools or lighting to create  stunning images……..

There are times I blow out highlights on purpose.  How one chooses to expose an image is no different than choosing color vs black a white for a photo. Do you look at every black and white and assume the photographer was too lazy to get the ‘color balance’ right?

Nico Simon Princely wrote:
I'm not sure it's easy to rate but it's much like the ART vs. Porn I know it when I see it. Just like I know quality when I see it. The details are often when separates high quality from low quality.
As far as rating myself. I'll pass on that. It really means nothing. What matters is that you are continually getting better and better and producing better work,

Hell yeah! I learn something every time I pick up a camera. When I stop learning, I will stop picking up the camera. When you think you are all the way smart, that’s when you get into trouble.

Cheers!
Noah

Noah Russell wrote:

Mike Collins wrote:
From my experience?  Those that boast how fantastic they are, usually aren't.  Those who are passionate about what they do and are very humble are usually better than most.

+1. From my experience, boastfulness goes hand in hand with insecurity. 

Derek Ridgers wrote:
In my years working as an editorial portrait photographer, I met a lot of people who were at the top of whatever it was they did and I found humility to be very rare among all those involved in the arts.
I think this is because many of them have a fanbase and they are constantly being told how wonderful they are.
The world of sport is an exception. 
The World champions and Olympic gold medal winners I photographed all seemed very humble.
I think this is because, in sport, there is always a winner and a loser and it’s far less about opinions.

I think the exception is the arts, not the world of sport. Perhaps artists live in a reality distortion field where perception is reality? Take gangster rappers for example….. :-P It’s hard to find a humbler bunch.

I ran across an amazing well known photographer recently who had set their profile to ‘no experience.’ The experience field on MM is a waste of megabytes. My suggestion: rename it ‘favorite color.’

Experience is what we all get by showing up. With experience comes mistakes. Some people learn from theirs, some do not. Therefore, it’s a meaningless indicator of ability.


There are times I blow out highlights on purpose.  How one chooses to expose an image is no different than choosing color vs black a white for a photo. Do you look at every black and white and assume the photographer was too lazy to get the ‘color balance’ right?


Hell yeah! I learn something every time I pick up a camera. When I stop learning, I will stop picking up the camera. When you think you are all the way smart, that’s when you get into trouble.

Cheers!
Noah

hu·mil·i·ty
(h)yo͞oˈmilitē/
noun
noun: humility

    a modest or low view of one's own importance; humbleness.

Humility as defined is almost low self-esteem and that's NOT good.

You have to find a balance between belief in yourself, confidence in your work and ability without becoming an egotistical boastful jackass. Many people go though an arrogant boastful phase before they actually are good, kind of a "Fake it until you make it"

I think it's good to be confident but don't  start feeling you know it all or look down on others. And never let that stop you from growing and learning.

Herman van Gestel wrote:
humility : asking twice for compliment...

Not humility, that's what's more normally known as needy.

ThroughJerrysEyes wrote:
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.
- Ansel Adams

True... or even worse... a fuzzy image of a sharp concept...

Select Models wrote:

True... or even worse... a fuzzy image of a sharp concept...

I disagree, look at Lillian Bassman's work. 

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
Gregory Crewdson, at a lecture/review at Yale, kept saying "what's at stake".  Meaning what's at stake for you, personally, in the image.  ]What are you revealing about yourself that actually matters?[/i]

Daniel wrote:
Did he say what his thoughts were when the answer was nothing?

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
He simply just exhibited general disgust and dismissiveness, which was shared by the rest of the faculty, the graduate students.  LOL

Ok, that may be a bit over the top, but it's pretty close.  The honest answer to your questions, based on the MFA program as a whole?  Figure it out or get out...

If the answer is truly "nothing" then there's no reason for you to be engaging in any form of self-expression made for the consumption of others.  What the hell are you communicating, if that's the case?  Why should they spend their time considering what it is you have to say, if you don't even know why you're saying it?

Now, the answer is almost never really "nothing", which is a big part of what the program is about - helping students to discover these things.

Unless the artist isn't creating work to engage in "self-expression." Is that not realistic? I'm thinking that a student could learn their answer could be nothing (loosely), and not have to get out as a result of their figuring. Certain aspects of Automatism come to mind. At least, those are some basic thoughts from where my question came. Interesting stuff regardless.

Derek Ridgers wrote:

A lot of what I photograph is of no interest to MM either but I allow the MM community to see it so that, when I come on the Photography Forum, they might be able to form an opinion as to whether I know what I’m talking about or not.

Bull. Your port of pics screams MM style. It is exactly what interest MM viewers.

Caitin Bre  wrote:

Bull. Your port of pics screams MM style. It is exactly what interest MM viewers.

Deflects like Cap Amercian with thinly veiled insult.

I believe he has "called" so it's time to show your cards or fold them

Select Models wrote:

ThroughJerrysEyes wrote:
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.
- Ansel Adams

True... or even worse... a fuzzy image of a sharp concept...

If it's true there's nothing worse, something else can't be even worse.

And fuzzy images of many inspired concepts can work surprisingly well. I can't pull them off; it's very much not how I 'see' things, but I have seen some truly impressive unsharp photographs.

Caitin Bre  wrote:

Bull. Your port of pics screams MM style. It is exactly what interest MM viewers.

let's see -- if you mean interesting viewpoint and a clearly defined sense of style I'd say you might be right.

I don't know for sure but I can imagine by looking at his work he has real world clients. Oh and looky there -- an impressive list of credits.

IDK but to me it is easy to spot that he is talented without even seeing the credits.

Is that what you meant?

AJ_In_Atlanta wrote:
Deflects like Cap Amercian with thinly veiled insult.

I believe he has "called" so it's time to show your cards or fold them

I really have not photographed models in nude or seductive poses. I don't think that my images for advertising or news fit in on MM. But my Modeling does hense why I have a MODELING port. Real estate doesn't work on here. And Neither does product photography. I don't think my wedding clients would appreciate me posting them all over MM. And I am not going to post paying clients portraits on a site that many of them see as fowl to begin with.

So really I mean it when I say My photography does not fit in on MM.
I certainly am not going to cross my customers just so you can negatively critique my work. You don't like me to begin with. If you are looking to compare our qualities? Well hell your the know everything there is to know GOD of photography. I would NEVER be able to compete with your ego.
My work is good enough for the people who pay me. My quality I deliver has not to this day yet been denied by clients. My local news paper has not revoked my letter and pass issued by them to me. The realtors still call me for all there high end listings. And the city still has me shooting all the special events and the Mayor loves my work.
So I will comfortably tell you regardless of what you think, I don't need your opinion of my work. Nor do I give a fock what your opinion is. So go impress some new models into shooting with you for free ok and just ignore my posts if they bother you so deeply.

Caitin Bre  wrote:
I really have not photographed models in nude or seductive poses. I don't think that my images for advertising or news fit in on MM. But my Modeling does hense why I have a MODELING port. Real estate doesn't work on here. And Neither does product photography. I don't think my wedding clients would appreciate me posting them all over MM. And I am not going to post paying clients portraits on a site that many of them see as fowl to begin with.

So really I mean it when I say My photography does not fit in on MM.
I certainly am not going to cross my customers just so you can negatively critique my work. You don't like me to begin with. If you are looking to compare our qualities? Well hell your the know everything there is to know GOD of photography. I would NEVER be able to compete with your ego.
My work is good enough for the people who pay me. My quality I deliver has not to this day yet been denied by clients. My local news paper has not revoked my letter and pass issued by them to me. The realtors still call me for all there high end listings. And the city still has me shooting all the special events and the Mayor loves my work.
So I will comfortably tell you regardless of what you think, I don't need your opinion of my work. Nor do I give a fock what your opinion is. So go impress some new models into shooting with you for free ok and just ignore my posts if they bother you so deeply.

What does nude or suggestive poses have to do with MM?  When have I said I don't like you, or even know you?  An obviously you could have your worked displayed elsewhere, why does it require a MM profile?  When have I ever said my work was amazing or display any form of ego?

I can answer that last part, never.

Your post could have been so much shorter and less a rant or insult to me if you simply posted "fold" as that is what is going on here.

AJ_In_Atlanta wrote:
What does nude or suggestive poses have to do with MM?  When have I said I don't like you, or even know you?  An obviously you could have your worked displayed elsewhere, why does it require a MM profile?  When have I ever said my work was amazing or display any form of ego?

I can answer that last part, never.

Your post could have been so much shorter and less a rant or insult to me if you simply posted "fold" as that is what is going on here.

Sorry but for as long as I have been on MM it seems that most threads end up just being pissing matches. The discussions are derailed by ultra egos rather than a good debate on the subjects. A few on here just follow my posts around and make snoody personal attacks.

My professional photography life and my modeling life are 2 separated issues just like many photographers do. MM is more about personal works and many photographers keep it hidden from there clients and for good reason. We live in an extremely judgmental society.
Why we have stage names. I love my modeling works. But I am not going to chance my professional photography career to judgement of my personal fun side of the freelance modeling world. I would lose. So it should be understood rather than a judgement from you when I say My photography world doesn't fit in here. I see you have your profile set to private for a reason right? I know many photographers here can understand what I am trying to say about this subject.

Why would I just post Fold? Why would you tell me I should just post fold. Let me be me. Stop being so controlling and condescending.

Caitin Bre  wrote:

Sorry but for as long as I have been on MM it seems that most threads end up just being pissing matches. The discussions are derailed by ultra egos rather than a good debate on the subjects. A few on here just follow my posts around and make snoody personal attacks.

My professional photography life and my modeling life are 2 separated issues just like many photographers do. MM is more about personal works and many photographers keep it hidden from there clients and for good reason. We live in an extremely judgmental society.
Why we have stage names. I love my modeling works. But I am not going to chance my professional photography career to judgement of my personal fun side of the freelance modeling world. I would lose. So it should be understood rather than a judgement from you when I say My photography world doesn't fit in here. I see you have your profile set to private for a reason right? I know many photographers here can understand what I am trying to say about this subject.

My profile is set to private? I had no idea and will fix it, but my work is visible here, my website (I am actually editing that right now), social media and all over.  Potential clients want to see your work and you need to direct them to something - don't you direct them to something?

You have made several comments on photography and people asked you where yours was, no insulting involved.  You have done nothing but insult me while deflecting the question.  Somehow I have an ego or am judgmental over work nobody has seen??

AJ_In_Atlanta wrote:
My profile is set to private? I had no idea and will fix it, but my work is visible here, my website (I am actually editing that right now), social media and all over.  Potential clients want to see your work and you need to direct them to something - don't you direct them to something?

You have made several comments on photography and people asked you where yours was, no insulting involved.  You have done nothing but insult me while deflecting the question.  Somehow I have an ego or am judgmental over work nobody has seen??

Yes under a entirely different name and I keep them very separated. Just like my Body double work is a entirely separate business. Why all my posted works under caitin bre have my true Identity in some way obscure or not recognized in person.
It is best to understand rather than criticize why people do what they do. They have their reasons. Respect them. Not harass them for there choices. Why is that so hard to understand? Why cant everyone on MM just respect each other for there differences rather than judge them?
The only work I will show here from my photography will be my Self Portraits. And yes that is photography and should be good enough for you to see. Do you do any self portraits? Would love to see them. They are not easy.
Back to the topic please. I really dont want any trouble with the mods here and we can discuss this farther in another topic or private if you wish.

Caitin Bre  wrote:

Yes under a entirely different name and I keep them very separated. Just like my Body double work is a entirely separate business. Why all my posted works under caitin bre have my true Identity in some way obscure or not recognized in person.
It is best to understand rather than criticize why people do what they do. They have their reasons. Respect them. Not harass them for there choices. Why is that so hard to understand? Why cant everyone on MM just respect each other for there differences rather than judge them?
The only work I will show here from my photography will be my Self Portraits. And yes that is photography and should be good enough for you to see. Do you do any self portraits? Would love to see them. They are not easy.
Back to the topic please.

There is no harassing or judgement, nobody has seen anything to judge.  As for why, isn't it obvious?  Before people take advice form someone they like to know the person giving it knows what they are doing; why is that so hard to understand.

So let's get back on subject photographers...

AJ_In_Atlanta wrote:

There is no harassing or judgement, nobody has seen anything to judge.  As for why, isn't it obvious?  Before people take advice form someone they like to know the person giving it knows what they are doing; why is that so hard to understand.

So let's get back on subject photographers...

You did see a couple of my self portraits right? That is photography. My quality on them is improving, I have some new ones I am working on as I am trying new equipment out for them to make it a little easier to achieve what I really want. (learning wifi shooting and phone apps for my 6d) Having troubles disguising phone or hiding it. The remote shutters don't have a good enough range. (that I have anyway.)