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all this talk about agencies
People speak of agencies here and there as if it were thier top priority in life. There are always other avenues, just don't quit your regular day job in hopes to becoming America's next top model (not the TV show). I mean, there are plenty of models who make nice money doing freelance modeling. I know for myself, I wouldn't want to work for an agency, because I'm happy the way my business is going so far. I don't think I could handle the stress of more work anyways. Also, people seem to be so knowledgeable about agencies, here's a question. How many of you have actually worked with a real agency? May 23 05 01:17 pm Link I have as a photographer for them doing tests. I have shot jobs which have dealt with them but most of my print has come through Japan and has been handled through a Japanese NY based photo/production company. I could not have done anything of the sort without agencies. I do agree with your statements that the agency life nor the desire above all else to be represented by one is not in everyone or most people's interests. They can be money hungry pains in the butt with little loyalty but there are many positives for photographers and models if the shoe fits. I have said before that I was most productive in my life when I had a full time freelance shooting job and had the financial power to tell them to go shove it. But that is the rule of life. The more you need the money or attention, the less you get for your time. I also may go back to school to have a "normal' job as a psycho babiler of inane facts-Art therapist. Even if you fit perfectly the agency modeling life is not easy and burns out many on all sides. This was written concerning direct contact with agencies While below I agree with Dan and Fred on the nature of why the system itself works. For main clients and jobs, I have a hard time seeing it any other way but for testing and small cheap jobs, I think it is changing but then I have heard that before. === Update since DanHood wrote. I agree with Dan. There is someone behind the model to speak to and more importantly to build a relationship of trust. Just as I would have a hard time juggling speaking to some clients or models, the models trying to find work, get paid and get tears would be at a disadvantage if working full time. Maybe I think it is changing more than Dan and Fred but the system will be around for a long time and it works. I do not have to run the gauntlet of references every time I shoot with an agency even on a test. If the models mom steals something then the agency has paid. The agency is there to make sure the model is protected and gets her money and images. Theda may be able to negotiate with people she deals with but imagine a 17 year old doing so for herself while she is in Paris. Blah, blah, blah, I agree with Dan below on the nature of why the system works. ==== When you have worked with a net model you have convinced one person. When you have worked with an agency, you have convinced a whole company of people. May 23 05 02:23 pm Link First off this is not just for you Joey this is for all the lurkers who might be asking the same question. The reason why agency info should be widely discussed is that it is where the real work and money is. All big budgets use agencies for numerous reasons. It how its just done. Why try and reinvent the wheel. The agency system works and continues to work. And it will continue to be the preferred method in the future. Does that mean there are no opportunities on the net of course not. Sites like this one, omp, and craiglist are fine for glamour, art models, and smaller lower budget commercial jobs, but the main work will always come from agencies. How many of you have actually worked with a real agency? Well, other than my bodypainting models every model on my port is an agency model. In fact rarely do I work with anything but. Im totally open to working with non-represented models. But agency models are just easer. Why are agency models easers? Several reasons. Let me give you todays example about 2 hours ago I found out Im shooting a new beauty brochure for Illuminare Cosmetics. After the call with the A/D (Art Director) I place two calls (plus calls to M/U and hair people) immediately to two agencies. Within an hour e-mails of the latest comps are coming to me, the client, and the A/D. This afternoon we will make the call and book two models with a few other choices in case the first two are booked out. By tomorrow the models will be confirmed, address to my studio will be supplied to the models contracts signed, voucher estimates done. We shoot Wednesday. That night the A/D gets a DVD of raw images. The vouchers are signed. My part is done. By nest week match prints are being pulled at the press. Client will have PO to agency. Agency get commission, models get paid. From concept to shoot is two days. Extremely short time frames like that happen all the time. Sure sometimes you have long lead times but not often. Sometimes it happens a bit differently but this is common for my market. Sometimes I do all the casting. Sometimes I do none. Jobs vary by client and time frame. Now compare that to net models. Id have to send 50 e-mails then in a day or three Id get say a dozen back. Half will be some Internet smuck thinking manager guy trying to worm some cash for himself. (P.S. that is illegal in California btw) Then after half a dozen e-mails back and forth, which will take like a week, or two we can book a pair and hop to God their photos are of them and not ten years old. We will then pray they will show up. If one doesntshow, f**k our schedule is off. I look like an idiot. I make the A/D look like an idiot to the client (THATS A BAD THING TO DO) and we are no closer to what we need. It is a disaster waiting to happen. Remember every time a model goes out on a job the agency reputation rides on that model. One phone call puts it all in motion. No e-mail after e-mail. No net-model-photographer/manager-guy trying to worm himself my client. No worrying about taxes or W2s, or liability or escorts (agency models wouldnt dream of showing up to a shoot with one) or trying to bargain for more money or not signing a release at the shoot, no surprise I gained 40 pounds since the photos I sent you. Just results. Agency models know they F**K up one job and they can be out. Agencies know they F**K up one job and they have lost that client. Sure Ive painted a worst-case scenario but you know what S**T happens and odds are it wont with an agency backing a model. Am I badmouthing non-agency models not at all? Im just giving a set of scenarios form a clients perspective. Art modeling, web content, small commercial jobs, the net is great for that. Yes I have booked models for some jobs from the net, but the real money lies with the agencies May 23 05 02:52 pm Link Great answer Dan! I agree with you 100%. It is sooooo much eaiser. And to piggy back what you said, I only show agency represented models in my book as well. It's too much trouble to explain who a girl is that is not preofessinally rep'd when the client says, who is this girl. Because the more professionally represented the girls are, the better you look especially when the client has, oh I see you have worked with "model's name". On another note, most models that are signed and work everyday will not ever make it even close to the level of top model. Becoming a top model has to do with the clients that demand you in both print and runway. It is not until you start getting top billing (10-20,000.00) in a day will you even be a contender for that slot. Even the girls that have won on ANTM are not top models as of yet. They may or may not make it. It's sort of like having a job in the corporate world. Most people with jobs will never be the CEO or CFO for that matter. I have worked with the following model agencies: Aria, Lily's, Ford, Images, Arlene Wilsons, Management First, elite (IL, NY, GA, FL, Norway - seperate agencies), Susannes A-Plus, and a few other out of state ones that I cannot recall right now. May 23 05 03:06 pm Link When i used to model I was signed with Traque Model Management www.traquemanagement.com . As a makeup artist Im not signed with any agencies, I feel like I still have more work to do on my book before i approach any, and when I do it will be London agencies. May 23 05 03:20 pm Link Posted by Printmakeup: I looked at your work, you have some really strong commercial looking images. I think you should approach them now. You can test with them and ... well you modeled befored, you know how the biz works. That's the fastest way to build your book. May 23 05 03:43 pm Link Posted by marksora: Hi Mark...I'm not singling you out okay? When VM asked if anyone worked for a real agency and then I saw your post Mark, it made me wonder to ask for some clarification for everyone going through this thread. May 23 05 03:56 pm Link i am in a smaller local market, (tampa)..it is a commercial print market, but i think its pretty much the same as the national commercial print industry. i have been refered to models, from my local agencies as someone that can deliver the commercial looks necessary for comps and ports.. i have been involved with submitting models to the agencys and i have also been present at casting calls for clients that took place at them. so while i dont have an "inner working knowledge" as some do, i do have experience in dealing with them. i know how to approach them and how they work with outsiders. as i said before, in my market. May 23 05 04:02 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: Good question. More if you would like. May 23 05 04:07 pm Link I have a few of questions for you Dan. First, are you a photographer full time? Second, so the agencies pay you to shoot the models for clients? Third, what about for personal projects, do you still find your models from agencies? If so, how much do you have to pay? I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything as usual, I'm just trying to find the plus sides of the agency thing compared to the online world. May 23 05 04:09 pm Link Posted by marksora: Posted by Joe K. Perez: More coming but giving you something to read..... Thanks for replying really quick. While you were doing that, I went back to edit my original post with a second question. May 23 05 04:12 pm Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: I know this was posed to Dan but the beauty of working with agencies is that either they like your work or they don't. If they don't, you don't work with their girls period. If they like your work, you don't pay the girls, you simply request who you want and they handle it almost as importantly as a booking! May 23 05 04:13 pm Link I agree with Fred, they like you or they do not but there are levels of like. Agencies have different levels of models and you work your way up on the testing side. Jobs are always treated differently and is getting models work that do you favors. You get the models real work and your clout goes up but in the end it is what you deliver on the testing side. On the job/hire side it is mostly about different issues such as money and exposure quality for the models. But fun shoots as compared with cold rainy days shoots matter also. ===== I may pay models in the future for shooting as I expand my nude work but I have yet to pay a model in my career out of my pocket. Most photographers that work with agencies do find the paying models concept a bit strange at first. I have nothing against the concept but it is easier in my book to make money as a model than a photographer.(small rocks please) May 23 05 04:23 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: Not sure really what you mean by this question. May 23 05 04:31 pm Link Posted by marksora: LOL!! May 23 05 04:31 pm Link Posted by Fred Brown: Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: I know this was posed to Dan but the beauty of working with agencies is that either they like your work or they don't. If they don't, you don't work with their girls period. If they like your work, you don't pay the girls, you simply request who you want and they handle it almost as importantly as a booking! this was my unrequested answer to joey as well... May 23 05 04:39 pm Link Posted by Fred Brown: Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: If they like your work, you don't pay the girls, you simply request who you want and they handle it almost as importantly as a booking! This looks like TFP/CD. Except, with formalities. May 23 05 05:05 pm Link On its face, yes but with much less hassles, restrictions, and more likely to get a good makeup artist or stylist and to have them paid for by the agency. It is all about the details and I will start a thread on what is a tfp/test for you and how much does it cost. Much less hassle and time wasted. May 23 05 05:12 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: Posted by Fred Brown: Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: If they like your work, you don't pay the girls, you simply request who you want and they handle it almost as importantly as a booking! This looks like TFP/CD. Except, with formalities. its nothing like TFP/TFCD..no hi res CD's with all images given out..no outrageous demands from amatuer models.. no "no shows". no body guards. a couple images for the models book is all.. May 23 05 05:14 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: Well, to be honest with you, I never heard of TFP until I started hanging around the online sites. TFP is really a spin off of TEST but it's the formalities that make the whole thing work so well. May 23 05 05:18 pm Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Well, like the others, I'm also not Dan! But your question is really general about how that aspect works so I'll venture an answer anyway even though I'm sure you don't want to hear from me. May 23 05 06:08 pm Link Posted by Aaron_H: Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: The only time a modeling agency would pay a photographer to shoot a model would be in a test situation when that's the method the agency uses instead of having the model pay directly on her own. when i am referred by an agency, the model usually pays me.. May 23 05 06:23 pm Link I know I sure have not.... Rather just deal with the model.... hell finding new models is part of the fun in this business.. May 23 05 06:24 pm Link Posted by Brent Burzycki: i called my local agency becasue i needed a plus size girl for a manufacturer of swimwear cover ups...i called at 5:30pm...at 6:00pm i had five quality candidates May 23 05 06:32 pm Link One big advantage and disadvantage to agency models is the net and the computer. Meaning that the disadvantage is that some agencies do not want you to post images of some models online and you should check first. The advantage came up by surprise for me a couple of months ago. Someone had stolen my images and was using them online. It was the agency who caught it and dealt with it. I did not have to raise a thumb except to make two faxes and recieve the updates. A big advantage in my book. May 23 05 06:57 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: I was about to say the exact same thing. May 23 05 07:12 pm Link Yes - and this is why I rarely use agencies - #1 - I do not shoot any real client driven paying jobs... #2 - I would use them if someone else was footing the bill... I did not say they are not needed - i just do not use them.. Posted by Doug Swinskey: Posted by Brent Burzycki: i called my local agency becasue i needed a plus size girl for a manufacturer of swimwear cover ups...i called at 5:30pm...at 6:00pm i had five quality candidates May 23 05 07:29 pm Link Umm because they are getting jobs from them?? Money = believe anything.. Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: May 23 05 07:30 pm Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Not sure what differences you are seeing in this post that would cause that big of an opinion difference. May 23 05 07:39 pm Link Posted by Brent Burzycki: But some photographers aren't getting paid from them, they are just using thier models. May 23 05 07:41 pm Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Posted by Brent Burzycki: But some photographers aren't getting paid from them, they are just using thier models. Nothing wrong with that either. It all depends on ones purpose. If one wants to shoot models at an ad agency level then he has to be at least at a level where he's shooting models at the agency level. Otherwise they think you're just shooting girls and there is a huge difference in the eyes of the clients. Remember the ad agencies know the models because after all, they are the ones hiring them. The perception is if you are only shoot the girl next door or girls that would not get signed by model agencies then there is something that's not up to par. So shooting them for free has it's advantages depending on one's purpose. May 23 05 07:55 pm Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Posted by Joe K. Perez: I was about to say the exact same thing. Regarding your last question J, it's not everyone "insisting". Just a handful of people and with them really, it's not about being right, but being competitive. They all want to herd the prettiest models over to their corner and lock down who they can shoot with. You know the deal NoyPi. May 23 05 08:01 pm Link Posted by marksora: Thanks, but it's not necessary. However, if you want to write about one experience that has a valuable learning lesson for all, feel free to share! May 23 05 08:08 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: But most agency models aren't really the best looking ones. May 23 05 08:11 pm Link But most agency models aren't really the best looking ones. I can't agree with you on that one but that just depends on what your criteras for judging models are. May 23 05 08:27 pm Link Posted by * Bisual landscapes *: hey Bisual landscapes, (snicker, laughs,...) May 23 05 08:34 pm Link I'm sure there are beautiful women that are not with an agency. Perhaps the most beautiful woman in the world is not even a model of any type. However, isn't it the exception that proves the rule? Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Posted by Joe K. Perez: But most agency models aren't really the best looking ones. May 23 05 08:35 pm Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Posted by Joe K. Perez: But most agency models aren't really the best looking ones. i disagree May 23 05 08:40 pm Link Posted by marksora: Posted by * Bisual landscapes *: hey Bisual landscapes, (snicker, laughs,...) LOL! Now I am tinking of pried Tilapia. May 23 05 09:45 pm Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Posted by Joe K. Perez: But most agency models aren't really the best looking ones. I'd be willing to bet that say, 10 percent (give, or take a few), probably don't look that hot. ...but, I'd shoot with them anyway. *g* May 23 05 09:49 pm Link |
