Forums > Off-Topic Discussion > software piracy

Model

DawnElizabeth

Posts: 3907

Madison, Mississippi, US

Well, however anyone wants to justify it, it's not right.  I'm not saying that people are bad people for doing it, but we all know the law and making excuses doesn't make it right, no matter how "Robin Hood" the explanation is......

Dec 13 05 03:33 pm Link

Model

Satat

Posts: 2

Dallas, Texas, US

I'm a poor student and wouldn't have been able to learn the software without piracy.

When I get hired by a company I'll ask to use what I'm used to and so will other former students, thus ensuring a profit for adobe/macromedia/discreet etc.

Dec 13 05 04:06 pm Link

Photographer

BCG

Posts: 7316

San Antonio, Florida, US

an ak-47 can use rounds from an m-16...is that bullet piracy???

Dec 13 05 05:28 pm Link

Photographer

Alexei Fomin

Posts: 944

Ypsilanti, Michigan, US

Ok, this is getting too high strung. If we were talking in a bar, we would have probably been in a brawl by now, and i don't like that. So I'm just gonna say let's agree to disagree. I have my opinion based on my Democrato-Socialist beliefs and you have your republican beliefs. let's just call it a difference of opinion for now.

Dec 13 05 09:08 pm Link

Photographer

Dossett Photography

Posts: 110

Lovejoy, Georgia, US

Hartsoe wrote:

I know, but who needs PhotoShop CS in a full version and is NOT a professional photographer/graphic Designer (who can/should afford a legal licence).

The photographers that are trying to reach that level. Last year I bought adobe cs, but before that I had adobe 7.0, and it was a pirated version. Between buying a editing program and buying a new camera, I chose the camera. I paid for it when I could afford it. Is it stealing? Yes. Do I feel bad about it? No.

Dec 13 05 09:24 pm Link

Photographer

Dossett Photography

Posts: 110

Lovejoy, Georgia, US

BCG wrote:
an ak-47 can use rounds from an m-16...is that bullet piracy???

Huh?  7.62mm isn't close to a .223.

Dec 13 05 09:26 pm Link

Photographer

BasementStudios

Posts: 801

Newton Falls, Ohio, US

area291 wrote:

Size of your space doesn't matter, what does is usage for public consumption as that crosses personal use.  It is called Public Performance Rights.  However, there are exemptions.   An establishment is eligible for the exemption if it (1) has less than 2000 gross square feet of space; or (2) has 2000 or more gross square feet of space and satisfies the same loudspeaker and television set requirements as for food service or drinking establishments. 

BMI/ASCAP are the watchdogs over licensing and royalty payment and when music is used beyond just personal pleasure, such as adding an enhancement to the ambience of a public or private business facility, then that qualifies for royalty payment.

If size of your space doesn't matter, as you started out saying, why did oyu just make two points then that revolve around space - "less than 2000 gross square feet" and "2000 or more gross square feet" seems to me then that size of your space has LOTS to do with it

Dec 13 05 10:34 pm Link

Photographer

BasementStudios

Posts: 801

Newton Falls, Ohio, US

JBPhoto wrote:
Being a DJ, I should probably say "no comment"...but here's my 2 cents worth anyways...like it or not.
Yes, I know that when you download, someone looses.  That's unfortunate, and I do feel for some of the newer artists that are losing money.  I could give a shit about Brittany, though.
But on the other hand...when you buy a CD for a specific song because singles aren't being released like they used to, and there might be one or two other acceptable tracks at most and 9 tracks of filler shit, then Joe consumer just got reamed in the ass.
It seems greedy record companies are making the top 40 artist pump out CDs before the artist have time to write 5 good songs...and we pay the price.
I remember buying many an album, putting it on the turntable (yes, kids...I'm talking about records), and being able to listen...and ENJOY the entire album.
With the exception of some of the overly-churned-out greatest hits packages (hear that, Elvis?), those days are for the most part, long gone.
Before anyone takes too much offense at this...understand I am talking about music ONLY.

Cool, so you won't mind if I grab a couple of your photos then and pass them around, if it's okay to violate one copyright, then it's okay to violate them all right???

Dec 13 05 10:38 pm Link

Photographer

BasementStudios

Posts: 801

Newton Falls, Ohio, US

Satat wrote:
I'm a poor student and wouldn't have been able to learn the software without piracy.

When I get hired by a company I'll ask to use what I'm used to and so will other former students, thus ensuring a profit for adobe/macromedia/discreet etc.

Since you're a student, visti Academic Superstore, you can buy complete, full version software at a severely discounted rate.  It's called an "Education  Version", but it's still the full, uncrippled version and Photoshop is one of the ones offered.

Dec 13 05 10:43 pm Link

Photographer

Star

Posts: 17966

Los Angeles, California, US

William Kious wrote:

There's the rub, isn't it?  One type of stealing is okay while another is not.  By stealing software, you are essentially taking that "loose money" out of the wallets of the people who worked hard (and continue to work hard) on developing Adobe CS2.  You said that you are a student - did you investigate academic versions of CS2?  They're half the price (legally.)

And to those of you who think piracy isn't that big of a problem, remember that there are probably 500,000,000 other people out there who feel the exact same way you do.  Even if 1% of that many people pirate, that's 5,000,000 illegal copies floating around.  If I ran a software company, I would see that as a problem.

So, you have never stolen anything, Not time from an employer, not doing your job or goofing off at work, not change off the street, nothing?

Dec 13 05 10:45 pm Link

Photographer

Travis Feisthamel Photo

Posts: 671

Watertown, New York, US

I remember this same thread a while ago on Dpreview and it didn't really get anywhere on there either. All I can say is yes, I have a downloaded copy of the Photoshop CS2 CD that I use all the time. I would never have been able to afford it any other way. And using the keygen is much more handier than calling Adobe every time I want to reformat my system even IF I did purchase it.

Dec 13 05 10:52 pm Link

Photographer

Alexei Fomin

Posts: 944

Ypsilanti, Michigan, US

BasementStudios wrote:
Cool, so you won't mind if I grab a couple of your photos then and pass them around, if it's okay to violate one copyright, then it's okay to violate them all right???

If you passed his photos around marked with information about the artist, wouldn't that just be free advertising? I'd say go ahead, I'll even print you up a case of 4x6's to hand out to everyone you see walking down the street. and just as everyone would know the singer's name from the cd cover, they'd know my name from the name on the back of the print.

Dec 13 05 10:57 pm Link

Photographer

William Kious

Posts: 8842

Delphos, Ohio, US

Star wrote:
So, you have never stolen anything, Not time from an employer, not doing your job or goofing off at work, not change off the street, nothing?

Once.  When I was about 7 years old.  It earned me a trip to the woodshed.  It depends on what you consider "goofing off" on the job.  Change off the street?  You can't steal an object that has no owner.

Do I think there are times when stealing is acceptable?  Sure.  Of course, it's one thing for a hungry person to steal food, but does anyone really need to steal software for survival?  Does anyone NEED that new copy of CS2 THAT badly?  It boils down to instant gratification and shoddy values.  *shrug*

I don't think people who pirate are horrible, awful people - I just wish they would acknowledge that what they're doing is stealing (and not be proud of it.)

Dec 13 05 11:13 pm Link

Photographer

Alexei Fomin

Posts: 944

Ypsilanti, Michigan, US

Dossett Photography wrote:

Huh?  7.62mm isn't close to a .223.

Thank god i didn't have to say it. and by the way, the AK-47 is no longer in production. Russian military uses the AK-74 with a 5.45x39mm bullet that is slimmer, longer, and lighter so it can travel longer distances, be more accurate, and the AK-74M version rocks and i want one.

Dec 13 05 11:30 pm Link

Photographer

BCG

Posts: 7316

San Antonio, Florida, US

Alexei Fomin wrote:

Thank god i didn't have to say it. and by the way, the AK-47 is no longer in production. Russian military uses the AK-74 with a 5.45x39mm bullet that is slimmer, longer, and lighter so it can travel longer distances, be more accurate, and the AK-74M version rocks and i want one.

at ease young privates...having been an agent for the mossad, the first thing they teach is is that the AK 47 comes chambered in 3 rounds...5.45 .223 and 7.62...if you get a reciever chambered in .223 then it can use the same ammo as the m-16...some are modded out to use the same clips...it is merely a question of what round is the gun chambered for and not any special function of the gun.

they dont teach that at boy scout camp...now go and help some old lady across the street.

Dec 14 05 12:01 am Link

Photographer

Rick Edwards

Posts: 6185

Wilmington, Delaware, US

BCG wrote:

at ease young privates...having been an agent for the mossad, the first thing they teach is is that the AK 47 comes chambered in 3 rounds...5.45 .223 and 7.62...if you get a reciever chambered in .223 then it can use the same ammo as the m-16...some are modded out to use the same clips...it is merely a question of what round is the gun chambered for and not any special function of the gun.

they dont teach that at boy scout camp...now go and help some old lady across the street.

LMFAO
I love the Mossad, they've visited my performing arts center on more than one occasion with Israeli symphonies.  Highly professional.

Dec 14 05 12:06 am Link

Photographer

BCG

Posts: 7316

San Antonio, Florida, US

gotta love a unit who answers ONLY to God.

Dec 14 05 12:14 am Link

Photographer

Kevin Connery

Posts: 17824

El Segundo, California, US

Alexei Fomin wrote:
So I'm just gonna say let's agree to disagree. I have my opinion based on my Democrato-Socialist beliefs and you have your republican beliefs. let's just call it a difference of opinion for now.

As long as you realize that:

Your opinion isn't based on the law today, and if you act on your beliefs you are in violation of federal law.

Your opinion demonstrates no awareness of any of the economic realities of viable businesses today.

As long as you're aware of that, I have no problem with it being called "a difference of opinion".

Hartsoe wrote:
Last year I bought adobe cs, but before that I had adobe 7.0, and it was a pirated version. Between buying a editing program and buying a new camera, I chose the camera. I paid for it when I could afford it. Is it stealing? Yes. Do I feel bad about it? No.

Would you have felt bad if you'd stolen the camera instead of the software?

Satat wrote:
I'm a poor student and wouldn't have been able to learn the software without piracy.

Compare that to: "I'm a poor student and wouldn't have been able to learn to drive if I hadn't stolen a car."

Dec 14 05 12:43 am Link

Photographer

Alexei Fomin

Posts: 944

Ypsilanti, Michigan, US

BCG wrote:

at ease young privates...having been an agent for the mossad, the first thing they teach is is that the AK 47 comes chambered in 3 rounds...5.45 .223 and 7.62...if you get a reciever chambered in .223 then it can use the same ammo as the m-16...some are modded out to use the same clips...it is merely a question of what round is the gun chambered for and not any special function of the gun.

they dont teach that at boy scout camp...now go and help some old lady across the street.

not a boyscout, a russian who researches. and is only starting researching firearms modifications. and so far what i knew was that the ak 47 was factory made for 7.62's. most of my random knowledge comes from the library, so sure i am not as knowledgeable as someone with military experience, but i am usually better educated than the average joe on most things.

and as for old ladies - they're targets for student drivers

Dec 14 05 01:12 am Link

Model

skully

Posts: 18

Paramus, New Jersey, US

BCG wrote:
help me dispell or prove a myth...is there a branch of the justice department or agency that can come into a company suspected of using pirated software or software that is not intended for use and seize that equipment???...now before you think i am nut, i have heard a commercial with an 800 number to call if you think you know of such activities.

my company had a huge sign in the cafeteria basically a picture of handcuffs saying that using software illegaly is a serious crime.

and there was a reward the exact amount escapes me.
but my IT friend said if the company gets caught they can be fined very heavily. even if you as an employee loads illegal software on your work computer.

Dec 14 05 01:18 am Link

Photographer

Star

Posts: 17966

Los Angeles, California, US

William Kious wrote:
Once.  When I was about 7 years old.  It earned me a trip to the woodshed.  It depends on what you consider "goofing off" on the job.  Change off the street?  You can't steal an object that has no owner.

Do I think there are times when stealing is acceptable?  Sure.  Of course, it's one thing for a hungry person to steal food, but does anyone really need to steal software for survival?  Does anyone NEED that new copy of CS2 THAT badly?  It boils down to instant gratification and shoddy values.  *shrug*

I don't think people who pirate are horrible, awful people - I just wish they would acknowledge that what they're doing is stealing (and not be proud of it.)

Change on the street has an owner, the person who lost it. That five dollar bill could be someone's lunch.

Also, everyone who accessed this site from work is stealing from their bosses.

My mother and Uncle each paid for their copy of CS2, I can't afford to. I currently operate about 300 in the hole each month. I spend my money on
1. food
2. bills
3. food for models
4. school supplies
245. new shoes. I wear one pair at a time, when they wear out I buy a new pair.

hell I don't even have the money for kit fees. I own 5.5, I own Microsoft Excel and Word. I am borrowing Adobe until I can pay for it. When I make money from it, I will buy it. It is wrong to steal. There are many worse things to steal though...

Dec 14 05 02:00 am Link

Photographer

Michael Gundelach

Posts: 763

Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany

Hartsoe wrote:
Last year I bought adobe cs, but before that I had adobe 7.0, and it was a pirated version. Between buying a editing program and buying a new camera, I chose the camera. I paid for it when I could afford it. Is it stealing? Yes. Do I feel bad about it? No.

Uhm - the above mentioned quote is from Dosset Photography not from me...

Dec 14 05 02:34 am Link

Photographer

Justin

Posts: 22389

Fort Collins, Colorado, US

Alexei Fomin wrote:
I have my opinion based on my Democrato-Socialist beliefs and you have your republican beliefs. let's just call it a difference of opinion for now.

It has nothing to do with politics.

I spend a lot of money and work my butt off and employ others to produce a product that I can sell and support. Someone who wants it thinks that it's all right to steal it from me. Not surprisingly, I disagree. I'm at a loss as to how someone who wants to take my stuff and hurt my livelihood is a political "difference of opinion" issue.

Dec 14 05 10:18 am Link

Photographer

JBPhoto

Posts: 1107

Belleville, Michigan, US

BasementStudios wrote:

Cool, so you won't mind if I grab a couple of your photos then and pass them around, if it's okay to violate one copyright, then it's okay to violate them all right???

Well, to make sure you understood the post, you would have to steal one good photo and nine shitty ones along with it.  I don't have nine shitty ones, sorry.

Dec 15 05 06:11 am Link

Photographer

Ty Simone

Posts: 2885

Edison, New Jersey, US

AK-47 M-16 thing.
The AK-47 uses a 7.62x39mm Round.
The M-16 / AR-15 uses a 5.56x45mm Round (soft bullet) that is a .223 Remington
The M-60 however also used the 7.62 round, which you would think made the ammo interchangable with the AK-47.
However, the M60 uses the 7.62mm NATO round which is 7.62 mm x 51 mm (having a longer neck than the 7.62 mm x 39 mm round used by the soviets)


General AK-47 Information

Caliber 7.62x39 mm
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt with 2 lugs
Overall length: 870 mm
Barrel length: 415 mm
Weight: 4,300 g with empty magazine, 4,876 g loaded
Magazine capacity 30 rds (40 rds box magazines and 75 rds drums)
Sighting range, m: 800
Cyclic rate of fire 600 rds/min
Practical rate of fire, single shots 90-100 rds/min; bursts 400 rds/min
Muzzle velocity: 780 m/s

     The following extract comes from US Army Field Manual 100-2-3 - The Soviet Army; Troops Organization and Equipment published in June 1991. The publication was approved for public release with unlimited distribution (ie may be freely used). The entry provided covered the AK-47, AKS, AKM and the AKMS military assault rifles

Description:
    The original AK was also known as the AK-47. It was a gas-operated, selective-fire weapon. Like all 7.62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifles, it fired the Soviet 7.62 x 39-mm M1943 round and used a standard 30-round curved box magazine. The AK came in two versions: one with a fixed wooden stock, and another, the AKS, with a folding metal stock issued primarily to parachutist and armor troops. Except for the differences in the stock and the lack of a tool kit with the AKS, the two version were identical. The early AKs had no bayonet, but the version with the fixed wooden stock later mounted a detachable knife bayonet.

   The improved model, known as the AKM, is easier to produce and operate. It weighs about one kilogram less than the AK. The reduced weight results from using thinner, stamped sheet metal parts rather than machined, forged steel; laminated wood rather than solid wood in the hand guard, forearm, pistol grip, and buttstock; and new lightweight aluminum and plastic magazines. Other improvements include a straighter stock for better control; an improved gas cylinder; a rate-of-fire control alongside the trigger; a rear sight graduated to 1,000 meters rather than 800 meters; and a greatly improved, detachable bayonet.

    The AKM also has a folding-stock version, designated AKMS, intended for use by riflemen in armored infantry combat vehicles such as the BMP. Except for its T-shaped, stamped-metal, folding buttstock, the AKMS is identical to the AKM. The folding-stock model can reduce its length from 868 to 699 millimeters.
Some AK Variants
AKS-47
Folding Stock
AKM-47
RPK
SVD
SAR-1
WASR-10
MAK-90
MAADI
AKS-74
GP-30
Galil (Israeli)

Polish Variants

Indian Variants

Russian VEPR

 


     The safety lever serves two functions when in the upper or "safe" position. First, it blocks dirt from entering the action by covering the slot the bolt carrier lever moves through when the weapon is fired. This also prevents the weapon from being cocked while on "safe".

    Second, an extension on the pin holding the lever through the receiver blocks the rear of the trigger, preventing the trigger from being pulled. When the safety lever is moved to "fire, the action may be cycled, and the trigger is the only thing holding the hammer from falling.

    When the trigger is pulled, the hammer falls, hits the rear of the firing pin, and the round detonates. Note that the AK-47 bolt is locked closed by rotating when the bolt carrier is moved forward (there is a cam on the top of the bolt that engages a slot in the bolt carrier to accomplish the rotation). The firing pin is free-floating -- there is no spring to hold it retracted until the hammer falls. Consequently, if one manually cycles live rounds through the AK-47, one will observe light indentations on the primers where the firing pit hit against them as the action closed. Consequently, it is inadvisable to chamber live rounds unless you are prepared for the possibility of the weapon firing when you do so.

    Slam-fires do not seem to be as common as with the SKS, and it is hard to get enough dirt into the action to cause it to malfunction for that reason. I recall one report of flawless functioning even when the rifle was so covered in mud as to be hardly recognizable as a firearm.

     The action is gas-operated: when a round detonates, some gas from the explosion is vented out of a small hole at the top of the barrel near the muzzle. This gas pushes against the front of the piston in the gas tube, which is connected to the bolt carrier. As the bolt carrier is pushed rearward by the gas, the bolt rotates to unlock and moves rearward, and the round in the chamber is extracted and pulled back.

    The round is ejected when it hits against a small protrusion on the left side of the receiver as the bolt moves rearward. Simultaneously, the back of the bolt pushes the hammer back and cocks it.

    The hammer is held back by the disconnect or (the trigger is almost certainly still pulled, since the action cycles much faster than the operator can release the trigger). The bolt and bolt carrier recoil against the recoil spring and guide rod, and come back forward. As the bolt comes forward, it grabs the top round from the magazine and puts it in the chamber.

    There is no feature to hold the bolt open after the last round is fired from the magazine. When the operator releases the trigger, the disconnect or moves rearward and releases the hammer to move about 1/8", at which point it is stopped by the (now released) trigger until the operator pulls the trigger a second time.

Capabilities:
   All 7.62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifles fire in either semiautomatic or automatic mode and have an effective range of about 300 meters. At full cyclic rate, they can fire about 600 rounds per minute (up to 640 rounds per minute for the AKM), with a practical rate of about 100 rounds per minute fully automatic or 40 rounds per minute semiautomatic. Both the AK and AKM can mount a grenade launcher. Both can have passive image intensifier night sights. Both can function normally after total immersion in mud and water. The fully chromed barrel ensures effective operation even at very low temperatures. The muzzle of either weapon fits into the swiveling firing points of the BMP. Thus, the infantryman can fire the weapon while the vehicle is moving.

Limitations:
   The most serious drawback to the AK and AKM is the low muzzle velocity (710 meters per second) of the relatively heavy 7.62-mm round. This results in a looping trajectory that requires a clumsy adjustment for accuracy at ranges beyond 300 meters. The barrel overheats quickly when the weapon fires for extended periods, making the weapon hard to handle and occasionally causing a round to explode prematurely in the chamber. The exposed gas cylinder is easily dented, sometimes causing the weapon to malfunction.

Remarks:
   Although they designed it in 1947 and thus referred to it as the AK-47, the Soviets actually adopted the AK in 1949. The AK entered service in 1951. It was the basic individual infantry weapon of the Soviet Army until the introduction of the AKM. The Soviets developed the AKM in 1959. It entered service in 1961. All 7.62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifles are very dependable weapons. They produce a high volume of fire and are simple to maintain. However, the new 5.45-mm assault rife AK-74 is replacing the 7.62-mm weapons.

   Kalashnikov goal was to design a cheaply manufactured, automatic weapon that fired the new Soviet 7.62x39mm intermediate power round. This round was intended to be a compromise between the pistols rounds fired from submachine gun, which were controllable but lacked power, and the rifle cartridges fired from heavier machine guns, which were either too heavy to fire while on the move or, if lightened, uncontrollable during automatic fire. The conventional wisdom is that the Nazi's originated the concept of an assault rifle with their MP44 machine-pistol design, (which fired the 7.92x33 "8mm Kurz" round) and the Soviets copied them, but this is disputed by Ezell -- both sides may have developed such weapons concurrently. Furthermore, Kalashnikov was hardly the only _Soviet_ designer working toward this end at this time. Other designers looking at the 7.62x39 cartridge included Simonov (designer of the SKS) and Tokarev (designer of the weapons that bear his name). 

The following data comes from
James Infantry Weapons 1995 - 1996.

Cartridge: 7.62 x 39 mm Operation: gas, selective fire
Locking: rotating bolt Feed: 30-round detachable box magazine
Weight: 4.3 kg Length: 869 mm
Barrel: 414 mm Rifling: 4 grooves, rh, 1 turn in 235 mm
Sights: fore, post, adjustable; rear, U-notch, tangent Muzzle velocity: 710 m/s
Rate of fire: cyclic, 600 rds/min Effective range: 300 m


"I hate when People Talk Crap then try to cover it up with even more crap.... Eventually the Crap pile gets so high that you can smell the stink over the internet!"

Dec 15 05 08:38 am Link

Photographer

BCG

Posts: 7316

San Antonio, Florida, US

Word Count please.

Dec 15 05 08:56 am Link

Photographer

Ty Simone

Posts: 2885

Edison, New Jersey, US

BCG wrote:
Word Count please.

I could have made the post smaller I suppose.

Try This:

BCG has no clue about weapons

short enough for you?

Dec 15 05 08:58 am Link

Photographer

Kentsoul

Posts: 9739

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

Kevin Connery wrote:

From a legal standpoint, they're almost identical.  The US Copyright law has some specific instances for "musical works", but the basis behind copyright for music, art, photography, literature, and software is the same.

Licensing agreements can of course modify that. For example, Adobe permits 2 copies of most of their software to be installed/used for each copy you buy, so long as they're not used concurrently. That's not required by copyright law, which would not permit 'live' installations. (Backup copies: yes. Live installations: no.)

Actually, song writers are paid their royalties through ASCAP or BMI...it's the recording artists who theoretically lose out from "stealing" music.  A songwriter's publishing compnay could very well screw them, but that's another matter.

Dec 15 05 09:03 am Link

Photographer

Kentsoul

Posts: 9739

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

BasementStudios wrote:

Since you're a student, visti Academic Superstore, you can buy complete, full version software at a severely discounted rate.  It's called an "Education  Version", but it's still the full, uncrippled version and Photoshop is one of the ones offered.

You can buy software?  When did this start?

Dec 15 05 09:04 am Link

Photographer

Ty Simone

Posts: 2885

Edison, New Jersey, US

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

You can buy software?  When did this start?

Education discount for software has been around a while.
It is their way of getting future sales.
If a student learns on Photoshop, When he / she gets to the big times, he / she will still be using photoshop (full price though)

:-)

Thank Bill Gates for that innovation....

Dec 15 05 09:08 am Link

Photographer

area291

Posts: 2525

Calabasas, California, US

Ty Simone wrote:
Education discount for software has been around a while.
It is their way of getting future sales.
If a student learns on Photoshop, When he / she gets to the big times, he / she will still be using photoshop (full price though)

:-)

Thank Bill Gates for that innovation....

Bill Gates has nothing to do with Photoshop...and it was Apple that first penetrated the education market with both hardware and software going all the way back to the early days of IIC's, then later placing both Lisa and Macintosh machines in the classroom.

Dec 15 05 09:17 am Link

Photographer

Ty Simone

Posts: 2885

Edison, New Jersey, US

area291 wrote:

Bill Gates has nothing to do with Photoshop...and it was Apple that first penetrated the education market going all the way back to the early days of IIC's, then later placing both Lisa and Macintosh machines in the classroom.

Right and Wrong.

Apple gave software / Hardware away to schools for free.
Microsoft started the Student discount program for College Students.
Slightly different animal.

Of course, I could be wrong here, but that is the general belief of all us geeks that lived through that time smile

Dec 15 05 09:23 am Link

Photographer

area291

Posts: 2525

Calabasas, California, US

Ty Simone wrote:
Right and Wrong.

Apple gave software / Hardware away to schools for free.
Microsoft started the Student discount program for College Students.
Slightly different animal.

Of course, I could be wrong here, but that is the general belief of all us geeks that lived through that time smile

Sort of right, sort of wrong!  Apple did have education discounting (how I bought and learned on my IIc in 1981), but it was IBM that came in and started the really deep discounting for both machines and hardware.  There was actually quite a war going on in the early 90's between Apple and IBM.  Microsoft came into the picture later as they only had one component (the OS) and not the hardware.

Dec 15 05 09:30 am Link

Photographer

Ty Simone

Posts: 2885

Edison, New Jersey, US

area291 wrote:

Sort of right, sort of wrong!  Apple did have education discounting (how I bought and learned on my IIc in 1981), but it was IBM that came in and started the really deep discounting for both machines and hardware.  There was actually quite a war going on in the early 90's between Apple and IBM.  Microsoft came into the picture later as they only had one component (the OS) and not the hardware.

Hmmm. I am talking software, You are talking hardware.... I think we need middleware........

smile

Dec 15 05 09:34 am Link

Photographer

BCG

Posts: 7316

San Antonio, Florida, US

Ty Simone wrote:

I could have made the post smaller I suppose.

Try This:

BCG has no clue about weapons

short enough for you?

i learned all i need to know about weapons from watching platton and full metal jacket...ps...that me with the m2 in my portfolio.

Dec 15 05 10:27 am Link

Photographer

FreshWidows

Posts: 89

Marseille, Provence-Alpes-Côte-d'Azur, France

In other part in Europe there is a dangerous consensus about a future law to forbid free software that's amazing! but it din't go far i think.

Dec 15 05 10:39 am Link

Photographer

BCG

Posts: 7316

San Antonio, Florida, US

FreshWidows wrote:
In other part in Europe there is a dangerous consensus about a future law to forbid free software that's amazing! but it din't go far i think.

WTF???...who came up with that brilliant idea...hitlers cousin???

Dec 15 05 10:42 am Link

Photographer

Ty Simone

Posts: 2885

Edison, New Jersey, US

BCG wrote:
i learned all i need to know about weapons from watching platton and full metal jacket...ps...that me with the m2 in my portfolio.

Platoon? I assume that is what you were trying to say.....

I suppose since I watched Star Wars multiple times, I am now a fully qualified Jedi......

You have no need to respond.
BCG: I have no need to respond.

You do not want to post in this thread.
BCG: I do not want to post in this thread.

You will be posting in the Newbie Forum now.
BCG: I will be posting in the Newbie Forum now.

Move Along. Move Along.



"All Too Easy." - D. Vader

Dec 15 05 10:49 am Link

Photographer

BCG

Posts: 7316

San Antonio, Florida, US

Ty Simone wrote:

Platoon? I assume that is what you were trying to say.....

I suppose since I watched Star Wars multiple times, I am now a fully qualified Jedi......

You have no need to respond.
BCG: I have no need to respond.

You do not want to post in this thread.
BCG: I do not want to post in this thread.

You will be posting in the Newbie Forum now.
BCG: I will be posting in the Newbie Forum now.

Move Along. Move Along.



"All Too Easy." - D. Vader

oh you silly little psuedo jedi...i think in binary code and think at the speed of darkness...your games amuse me.

Dec 15 05 11:18 am Link

Photographer

Ty Simone

Posts: 2885

Edison, New Jersey, US

There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those that understand binary, and those that don't!

Dec 15 05 11:25 am Link