ModelMayhem.com - I almost said it!

Posts: 45202

San Juan Bautista, California, US

Rafael, Going to call you to the table on this ... can you explain yourself better?

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:

Posted by Ched:

Posted by MagicImagePhoto:
Some times Bullshit doesn't fall to far from the Farm. By the way what farm did you say you came from. For one thing this is a free site and open to amature photogs and models. How can you even put your self at any level and say shit like you did. So what if some stuff in here is crap in your eyes that is. So get the hell out of this site and dont bugg people with your anul retentive views. It sickens me to see post from photographers who think that this site was made for them. If you think your such a hot shit go and get your own payed site and leave those that want to be creative and learn from other in here. Im sorry just like you said on your post "I just had to let this out" Bravo Magic Image Photography

I think you took the main point of what he was saying the wrong way. As I understood it, he's saying there is a comment button under every picture but he is reluctant to use it for an actual critical response.

Thank you. I mean I could have been a real ass and just started posting what I feel about peoples work under their pictures. I try to be cool enough not to point fingers cause we all know how easy it is to post a link to some ones page and put them on blast in front of everyone. I've seen you guys do it more than once. Honestly I think my ranting and raving hit home with some of you and caused you to forget what the post was about. Let be real, how many people from OMP have left that site for the same reasons I'm bitching about?

Or hell maybe I should be one of those photographers that leaves posts like "baby you're sexy" or something out of hand like that.

What is this post about? So this entire thread is about if you should comment or not on other models and photographers pictures here on MM?

No one is stopping you. Besides, if the person you post a comment to does not like it, they can delete it. Last I heard, Oregon allows Freedom of Speech ... besides this is the Internet where any and all are welcome to give you a piece of our mind! LOL

Don't leave me any comments like "baby, you're sexy!" I already know! LOL

NO ONE is stopping you from commenting! Why have a thread about it, just go for it!

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:
If you're trying to get a job at a bank or someplace that deals with people on a daily and you show up in flip flops, boxers, and cowboy hat do you think you'll so much as get an interview? I'll answer that for you. No you won't because it was disrespectful to show up that way. Most everyone that responded was a photographer. Personally I feel they thought I was talking about them when I wasn't. But I must say this, for the people that think the title "Photographer" or "Model" means nothing it shows in your work. I'm not saying I'm the best or even close to it nor will I ever. But you can look at peoples work and tell when they have heart behind it. You can tell when they really enjoy what they're doing and take a great deal of pride in it. I don't see that in the work of the people that jumped on me for speaking the truth. Hmmmm Maybe that way they raised the war flags? Hmmmm maybe they know that them selves deep down inside? lol ok I'm off to bed.

What does working for a bank have to do with posting shit on the Internet? Or were you talking about wearing appropriate cloths at shoots and such? I worked for a bank and also in retail for years. I got hired. Guess I was respectful enough.

So what if a whole bunch of people here create a profile using poor digicam shots or other pictures you consider crap? This is not your website. If you owned it, then you can make the rules. Poor photography does not bother me as long as it is not mine! LOL We are all artists so unless you wish to start a website of your own where you only allow the models and photographers YOU want ... then all these model/photographer listing sites are going to have images you don't like or do like. We all have different taste in our art.

As to calling oneself a model or photographer, I don't need a "title" ... what for? Sure ... certainly I bought a few cameras and take pictures but I am so much more than that. I'm a human being with pride. I care! The artist in me is not concerned about what other people think. I would much rather concentrate on doing what I love than to have to defend my work against critics who say I am not a photographer. It's wasted energy!

May 31 05 03:07 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 440

Central Square, New York, US

What is it about this question that people don't understand, "So am I the only person on this site that looks at other peoples pages and has to really talk myself out of posted a message that wouldn't be taken very well?"?

This is what this post was about a simple yes or not question. I followed my question up with an explanation about why I'm asking it. Originally I thought that this would be a simple thing for people to grasp. As of now I stand corrected. Some of the things you guys are commenting on are pulled out of your ass cause no were in my post did I say or mean what you guys are acting like I said. I have many theories on why this is but for now I'll keep those to myself. If you're going to comment make sure you know what was said and that you aren't acting like an ass cause you feel insulted when I wasn't even talking about you. I've tride in every way that I could think of to explain myself but you guys can't seem to pull your heads out of your ass long enough to think threw what you are reading.

May 31 05 04:21 pm Link

Photographer

Boho Hobo

Posts: 25351

Santa Barbara, California, US

First off, a word of warning...people hate the truth. They say the want the truth, they say that truth is paramount, but generally that's a crock of shit. I say this because for a discussion of the issue you raised would require a lot of truthfulness,and I kinda doubt it's gonna happen.

That beings said, yeah, I often hit sites like this, OMP, internet models, web dwarf foot models, etc and look at work and say to myself, YAK. And I can be throwing up in the back of my throat for several reasons, typically craftsmanship and/or content. Now if it's craftsmanship and it's an all comers site (newbies, GWCs, pros, etc) then I expect some crap. Not everyone is born a degas (or pick your favourite artist) so you have to start somewhere. In that case, if one is feeling generous they could share tips, as lot of really cool photographers (some on this site) have done with me in the past, and probably in the future. As an artist, and craftsman I never want to stop growing. As far as content goes, who's to say what in the universe is true crap vs. art. I know from personal experience that lots of folks don't like the weird color or slightly off focus, off-kilter work that I do. They think that it's amateurish. So I know that one person's diamond is another's coal and leave it at that.

It's like they go join sites like this just because it makes them feel special. Just because "everyone" thinks you're cute or youre willing to get skanky in front of the camera doesn't mean you're a model. Just because you take pictures of girls all the time doesn't make you a photographer. I can take pictures of females all day long and that doesn't make me a photographer it just means that I'm into photography. Some of you guys know damn well that you have no business calling yourselves a photographer or a model.

Come on, we live in a celebrity culture with the superficial and looks as paramount. Girls are socialized that the best they can be is a babe, and guys rank higher on the guy food chain by bagging a babe. So it's not surprising to me that there are lots of cute or pretty girls who want to call themselves models, and lots of guys who walk around with a fully erect 400mm IS tele calling themselves photographers. Add to this that we are a consumeristic culture that believes practically anything can be purchased, whether it be a weekend training to be a shaman ($1,400 and 2 nights in the mountains) or a photographer (digital slr, plus at least 3 IS lenses, a portable laptop and a beavy of 2 gig CF cards). What I'm saying is that this particular action of wanting to be something sexy without having to put in your dues isn't just particular to the field of photography. It's our society and it's ALL around you.

Call me an asshole but I real do side with the models and photographers that get pissed off at some of the cats on these sites. I'm not trying to act like I'm all that but then again I know I have earned the right to call myself and Art Photographer.

I can see why industry folks want a special place where they can share professionally. Of course, the photography biz is so varied. You have people who do commercial work, photojournalists, editorial, stock, fine art, instructors, etc etc. Everyone's world is a bit different, and even amongst pros you get a bunch of prima donnas looking down at different genres so even with a pro site there would be...drama.

As to earning the right to call yourself an Art Photographer, that's unfortunately a very subjective thing. One persons conclusion might be very different from someone elses, depending on internal standards of integrity and craftsmanship, etc. Although I might judge someone's work, I would rarely judge what someone calls themself. I try and look at their body of work and let it speak for itself. Personally, I'm pretty new to MM and so it's been fun for me to paw through lots of ports and have the abiity to react/ineract with a number of people's work I wasn't familiar with and some folks work I knew but never got around to complimenting them on. Moreover, if I really respect it, I can bookmark them or chum up as a friend. I think it's a great way have a free exchange, but keep those who you gravitate towards close at hand.

It's going to be real nice to see someone put a site up that makes people apply to be a member of. Real the over flooding of garbage on sites like these just makes the real photographers and models leave. Have you ever wondered why it is that when you finaly catch wind of a new site that you see the real models and photographers already there? It's because the people that built the site asked them to join as soon as the site was finished.

I think it would be cool to have a private club as it were. I still think you'll debates over quality, content. You'll still have some flame wars because just because someone is creatively talented doesn't mean they're not an asshole. I would hope that if someone did have such a site that it was representative of the huge array of what we call photography, so that the community was comprised of people actually dedicated to their craft. But just as important, I'd like to see a community of respect. That differences would be valued, perhaps even ebraced. I don't know about where you live, but all around me, in the schools, etc, I don't really see the arts, as a part of life, being valued. Having real artist communities vs. flame factories, whether online or 3-d, seems very important, particularly now.

May 31 05 05:34 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 45202

San Juan Bautista, California, US

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:
What is it about this question that people don't understand, "So am I the only person on this site that looks at other peoples pages and has to really talk myself out of posted a message that wouldn't be taken very well?"?

This is what this post was about a simple yes or not question. I followed my question up with an explanation about why I'm asking it. Originally I thought that this would be a simple thing for people to grasp. As of now I stand corrected. Some of the things you guys are commenting on are pulled out of your ass cause no were in my post did I say or mean what you guys are acting like I said. I have many theories on why this is but for now I'll keep those to myself. If you're going to comment make sure you know what was said and that you aren't acting like an ass cause you feel insulted when I wasn't even talking about you. I've tride in every way that I could think of to explain myself but you guys can't seem to pull your heads out of your ass long enough to think threw what you are reading.

What this is ALL about is your indecisiveness as to whether you should post a message saying the truth about what you think? That is what it sounds like! OR are you trying to point out that you just think some of the models and photographers on MM plain suck? We all know if we suck or not. Post it if you feel it! The other person does have choices too! They can believe that your opinion is valid, they can disagree, they can think you are an asshole, they can delete it or they can just ignore it!

No, I do not feel insulted by you, I am just attempting to clarify what it is you are asking. The title to your post is "I almost said it!" so that is what I think you meant.

May 31 05 05:47 pm Link

Photographer

BluesteelPhoto

Posts: 135

Harrisburg, Arkansas, US

I used to suck, and now I do suck less. I hope not to suck at all someday.

I try not to judge others at all. I keep my blinders on and keep moving forward. I enjoy critique of my images both positive and negative because it helps me understand what others see in my photos.

I consider a portfolio like a TV channel, sometimes you get crappy TV and sometimes it's an infomertial. My recommendation, change the channel.

May 31 05 06:08 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 45202

San Juan Bautista, California, US

Posted by KM von Seidl:
First off, a word of warning...people hate the truth.

Not everyone "hates" the truth! I want the truth when a politician tells me that we need to go to War. I want the truth from my family and friends when it may save my life or my relationship. I may not like what I hear, but most of the time ... the truth is necessary! People have a choice when they hear the truth. If they DON'T hear the truth, then they do not have a choice.

Posted by KM von Seidl
... I often hit sites like this, OMP, internet models, web dwarf foot models, etc and look at work and say to myself, YAK.

.... As far as content goes, who's to say what in the universe is true crap vs. art.

So which is it? There is nothing wrong with your opinion. However to then to give an opinion and then turn around and say "who's to say ..." well you just contradicted yourself. What you are saying is it is your opinion that counts and no one else's. I agree with you on that.

We also have choices to accept or disagree with the opinions of others!

It's like they go join sites like this just because it makes them feel special. ... Just because you take pictures of girls all the time doesn't make you a photographer.

While that maybe true in you opinion, but so what? They are not hurting anything. If not enough people like what they see, those who are not "real" will vanish in time. I could call myself a pile of shit or I can call myself a photographer, but either way ... I am still here!

While the idea of starting an exclusive website that would allow only those who apply and are accepted is an interesting idea ... it is still may have the same problems that plague other sites.

This website is owned by someone. It is made "exclusive" in the sense that if Tyler doesn't like someone, he can kick them off! Same with OMP, except they like those who pay them lots of money. If you don't like it, start your own website!

We all should try to get along, don't you think?

May 31 05 06:22 pm Link

Photographer

Worlds Of Water

Posts: 37732

Rancho Cucamonga, California, US

Posted by :
So am I the only person on this site that looks at other peoples pages and has to really talk myself out of posted a message that wouldn't be taken very well? I just see so many "models" and "photographers" that are full of crap. It's like they go join sites like this just because it makes them feel special. Just because "everyone" thinks you're cute or youre willing to get skanky in front of the camera doesn't mean you're a model. Just because you take pictures of girls all the time doesn't make you a photographer. I can take pictures of females all day long and that doesn't make me a photographer it just means that I'm into photography. Some of you guys know damn well that you have no business calling yourselves a photographer or a model. Call me an asshole but I real do side with the models and photographers that get pissed off at some of the cats on these sites. I'm not trying to act like I'm all that but then again I know I have earned the right to call myself and Art Photographer. It's going to be real nice to see someone put a site up that makes people apply to be a member of. Real the over flooding of garbage on sites like these just makes the real photographers and models leave. Have you ever wondered why it is that when you finaly catch wind of a new site that you see the real models and photographers already there? It's because the people that built the site asked them to join as soon as the site was finished. Anyway I'm don venting and please feel free to respond as needed. I'll be reading but I didn't make this post to get into a back and forth pissing match with people on here. I already said what I needed to say.

OK crapshooter from backwoods bumfuck Oregon... I'm gonna let you have it with BOTH BARRELS! Wow dude... I just checked out the images in your MM profile... mister, your pics BLOW BIG DONKEY WEENIES! Most all your stuff could have been shot by a cateract stricken senior citizen with a throw-away camera. Oh... and here's a news flash for you Einstein... if there WAS a 'professionals only' portfolio hosting site on the web, judging by the caca you've put up so far, I can guaran-flippin-tee you that you would NOT be on it. And that comment you made about 'photographers here having no business calling themselves photographers'... dude... LOOK IN THE FREAKIN MIRROR! And you said to 'call you an asshole'... ok... YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE! And your comment about 'sites inviting quality personell to join as soon as the site was finished'... hey... SHOW ME YOUR INVITATION... LOL! And last but now least... that comment you made about 'not wanting to make this post a back and forth pissing match'... you need to STFU and suckup an asschewin, cause you KNOW you have this comin. Ah Ah Aaaaah... dont you DARE respond to this... remember... you already said what you needed to say... LOL!

May 31 05 06:48 pm Link

Photographer

David Holloway

Posts: 713

Liberty Lake, Washington, US

Here is my response to Rafaels rant in his original post in Amateurs vs. Professional that never got a response...Wonder why?

I consider myself an amateur photographer who is trying to teach myself how to shoot and develop my artistic eye (cannot afford school) but I am a photographer none the less. Who is qualified to dictate who can use the title of photographer? I don't think there is anyone hear who can. If photographer A is more successful then photographer B does that mean photographer B is not a photographer?

If I do not like your style of shooting or the images you create does that mean your not a photographer?

Rafael, if you don't like the term photographer then why are you calling yourself an Art PHOTOGRAPHER? To me it's arrogance when someone steps up and starts to talk about earning the title of photographer. I am constantly learning and striving to be just as good if not better then other photographers but I am a photographer whether you agree or not is not my problem..

As for respect, yes it's earned but you cannot earn that respect by bashing other photographers, it's earned by the images YOU create.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:
For the most part I don't seen them bashing "Amateurs". I see them bashing people that shouldn't be claiming to be a photographer or a model. Lets be real here. You bust your ass to get to where you are just to see some assholes with cameras draggin the photographer name threw the dirt. Amount of time time spent and the amount of money means nothin, you're ether good or you're not. Everyone now days claims to be a photographer if they take pictures all the time. Guess what that doesn't mean you have earn the tittle. I personaly don't like calling myself a photographer cause I rarely do staged photoshoots. I'm an art photographer that still has allot to learn. Ok anyway don't start raising the war flags till you have earned the right to be titled as a photographer. Respect is earned in this industry not forced.

May 31 05 08:00 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 45202

San Juan Bautista, California, US

Posted by Select Models:

Dude, you're mean! LOL BUT you are telling the truth! Sometimes the truth hurts. It's his choice as to how he will accept or deny what you said ...

Oh ... be careful what you say about Oregon though, I've got many friends there! As to earning the "label" or title or what ever honor one would be called a photographer ... well I don't give a fuck what people call me as long as it's not late for dinner. What is everyone smoking nowadays? It must be some mean ass weed!

You either like my work or you don't ... end of story!

May 31 05 08:28 pm Link

Photographer

Brian Diaz

Posts: 65617

Danbury, Connecticut, US

Posted by: Rafael Alvarez, May 31, 12:21 AM
...please feel free to respond as needed.

Posted by: Rafael Alvarez, May 31, 4:21 PM
This is what this post was about a simple yes or not question.

You have to understand that you didn't ask a question; you started a discussion, and as of 12:21 AM, you knew this. Somehow you forgot that by the afternoon.

So to simply answer your question, no, you aren't the only one. I don't, but there are others who do.

But any comments, agreeing or disagreeing with you, can serve to further all of our mental engagements with the subject at hand. I, for one, appreciate your initial post because it made me think about why I do not want to post negative comments on others' work and how communities such as this one (I've also learned vast amounts from the forums at photo.net) improve all of our skills.

May 31 05 09:46 pm Link

Photographer

BlackSkyPhoto

Posts: 1130

Danville, California, US

Posted by Brian Diaz:

Posted by Brent Burzycki:

Posted by Brian Diaz:
I don't think there's anything wrong with amateurs trying to learn and gain experience in the presence of more seasoned artists. That's why I'm here. My photos used to suck. Now, they suck less. I hope.

Spoken like true master.....

smile

And I have to agree - I used to suck also - now hopefully I suck less too......

That's the best compliment I've received so far today smile Thanks!

Well do not get used to it - I must have been in a good mood....

smile

May 31 05 11:21 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 440

Central Square, New York, US

Posted by Select Models:
OK crapshooter from backwoods bumfuck Oregon... I'm gonna let you have it with BOTH BARRELS! Wow dude... I just checked out the images in your MM profile... mister, your pics BLOW BIG DONKEY WEENIES! Most all your stuff could have been shot by a cateract stricken senior citizen with a throw-away camera. Oh... and here's a news flash for you Einstein... if there WAS a 'professionals only' portfolio hosting site on the web, judging by the caca you've put up so far, I can guaran-flippin-tee you that you would NOT be on it. And that comment you made about 'photographers here having no business calling themselves photographers'... dude... LOOK IN THE FREAKIN MIRROR! And you said to 'call you an asshole'... ok... YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE! And your comment about 'sites inviting quality personell to join as soon as the site was finished'... hey... SHOW ME YOUR INVITATION... LOL! And last but now least... that comment you made about 'not wanting to make this post a back and forth pissing match'... you need to STFU and suckup an asschewin, cause you KNOW you have this comin. Ah Ah Aaaaah... dont you DARE respond to this... remember... you already said what you needed to say... LOL!

I must say this was quite entertaining to watch someone stumble all over them self in anger. This so called "asschewin" still has me laughing. I hope you chewing my ass tasted good because I sure did enjoy seeing you explode with anger over some "crapshooter from backwoods bumfuck Oregon". lmao seams as if I'm building a team of cats that really dislike me? I'm sure the person that invited me to this site will think this is as entertaining as I do. Select Models you just made this post worth while and fun. I was getting really bored with the cats that cant read and think at the same time.

May 31 05 11:47 pm Link

Photographer

udor

Posts: 25255

New York, New York, US

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:
"So am I the only person on this site that looks at other peoples pages and has to really talk myself out of posted a message that wouldn't be taken very well?"?

I don't have that problem... if I look at many photos that I don't like, I don't bother even wasting my time on them!

On the other hand... if there is a photos or style of a photographer that I find outstanding... I WILL LET HIM/HER KNOW! In email, as a tag, or as a comment on a photo.

I prefer to be pro-active.

I also know that many people that look at my own photos EVEN the ones on my website may not like my style (but I am getting only positive responses... but I know that there must be people out there that I bore to death.).

May 31 05 11:53 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 440

Central Square, New York, US

Posted by Udo R Photography:

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:
"So am I the only person on this site that looks at other peoples pages and has to really talk myself out of posted a message that wouldn't be taken very well?"?

Thank you for responding to the original question in a proper manner.

May 31 05 11:57 pm Link

Photographer

Worlds Of Water

Posts: 37732

Rancho Cucamonga, California, US

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:

Cool... thanks for the compliments... and about that anger?... have never possessed it... never will. And dude... I don't dislike you, but you tossed out some blanket insults, left the basket unguarded, and I drilled a 3 pointer from 40 feet. You NOW know what it is that you must improve on. So get busy... start shooting images that are FAR BETTER than what you are currently displaying on your port... GROW AND LEARN! For networking and improving one's talents and image is (what I think) this place is all about.

Jun 01 05 12:23 am Link

Photographer

Posts: 440

Central Square, New York, US

Posted by Select Models:
Cool... thanks for the compliments... and about that anger?... have never possessed it... never will. And dude... I don't dislike you, but you tossed out some blanket insults, left the basket unguarded, and I drilled a 3 pointer from 40 feet. You NOW know what it is that you must improve on. So get busy... start shooting images that are FAR BETTER than what you are currently displaying on your port... GROW AND LEARN! For networking and improving one's talents and image is (what I think) this place is all about.

lmao it's funny how you say my work is bad yet I get messages from people like this as soon as they see your post.

"Forget those people in that forum you posted... most of them think their work is hot shit.. when it is just "okay" glamour style crap... they think their photos are art and most of them are not. Just ignore idiots like that. Mostly what pisses me off is how some of these internet photographers think their work is "art" when it is just crap and then they brag about all their small magazine jobs and tell others just to make themselves feel better. Im not trying to kiss your ass or anything I just really think you hit their weak spots and that was a strong good post you made. I do admire your photography and Hopefull we will get a chance to work together someday."

Oh yeah wait I forgot I suck lol.

Jun 01 05 12:40 am Link

Photographer

Kevin Connery

Posts: 17824

El Segundo, California, US

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:
What is it about this question that people don't understand [...]
Some of the things you guys are commenting on are pulled out of your ass cause no were in my post did I say or mean what you guys are acting like I said. I have many theories on why this is but for now I'll keep those to myself.
[....]
I've tride in every way that I could think of to explain myself but you guys can't seem to pull your heads out of your ass long enough to think threw what you are reading.

If one person doesn't understand, it's equally likely the "fault" of the listener OR speaker. If many people get the same impression from something said, and it's not what the speaker intended, it's much more likely to be an issue with the speaker than all the listeners.

So am I the only person on this site that looks at other peoples pages and has to really talk myself out of posted a message that wouldn't be taken very well?

Not at all. I usually say nothing when the genre is way outside my experience and/or interest. I rarely say anything negative about images I consider to be unsalvageable--there's little to be gained by anyone doing so uninvited. When specifically asked, yes, I have been known to comment on alternative approaches and/or strengths/weaknesses.

(Some of us are willing to comment on submissions we consider "weak" when we're invited to do so.)

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:
It's going to be real nice to see someone put a site up that makes people apply to be a member of.

Many such sites exist. I know of a handful of them that have been around since the late 1990's, and many more that are more recent. I suspect many of the people here belong to some of them.

As for the stated intent of the thread's first post: If you really care about people commenting on images--either your fears/concerns about doing so to others, or getting honest comments on yours--it would help if you identified what your work was intended to do. Rambling about no experience makes it unlikely you'll get much help--it's much harder to give any form of useful advice without knowing what the photos are supposed to do. Pritty pichurs for the refrigerator? Slice of life documentaries? Fashion? Commercial? Glamour?

Even serious technical issues (exposure, color balance, blurs, lack of focus, etc) can be intentional for some genre, even when they're major flaws for others.

I have to admit I have no idea what you intended your photos to accomplish.

Posted by Rafael Alvarez:
Mostly what pisses me off is how some of these internet photographers think their work is "art" when it is just crap

True. But there's kettles and pots, both in black, as well as glass houses and rocks.

Are you asking for honest critiques without false pandering or condemnation? Will you accept them?

Posted by Rafael Alvarez: Oh yeah wait I forgot I suck lol.

Self-realization is the first step towards recovery. smile

Jun 01 05 02:02 am Link

Photographer

Posts: 1355

Ann Arbor, Michigan, US

Posted by Select Models:

haha, you're incredibly ignorant and you live in a glass house

Jun 01 05 03:54 am Link

Photographer

Posts: 1355

Ann Arbor, Michigan, US

Posted by Patrick Walberg:
OK crapshooter from backwoods bumfuck Oregon... I'm gonna let you have it with BOTH BARRELS! Wow dude... I just checked out the images in your MM profile... mister, your pics BLOW BIG DONKEY WEENIES! Most all your stuff could have been shot by a cateract stricken senior citizen with a throw-away camera. Oh... and here's a news flash for you Einstein... if there WAS a 'professionals only' portfolio hosting site on the web, judging by the caca you've put up so far, I can guaran-flippin-tee you that you would NOT be on it. And that comment you made about 'photographers here having no business calling themselves photographers'... dude... LOOK IN THE FREAKIN MIRROR! And you said to 'call you an asshole'... ok... YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE! And your comment about 'sites inviting quality personell to join as soon as the site was finished'... hey... SHOW ME YOUR INVITATION... LOL! And last but now least... that comment you made about 'not wanting to make this post a back and forth pissing match'... you need to STFU and suckup an asschewin, cause you KNOW you have this comin. Ah Ah Aaaaah... dont you DARE respond to this... remember... you already said what you needed to say... LOL!

Dude, you're mean! LOL BUT you are telling the truth! Sometimes the truth hurts. It's his choice as to how he will accept or deny what you said ...

Wait, so two cheese meisters are suddenly the arbiters of truth, judgement and taste? What you don't know about truth fills the universe. Are you clowns kidding me? Much of his work is insightful, keenly observant and beautiful. He's certainly coming at his best work with true artistic intentions and arrives at some wonderfully artistic results.

The fact that a couple (or many) of creatively & culturally bereft hacks, completely lacking in imagination or the ability to see beyond the fast food cookie cutter world of bland and tasteless pablum they've been rasied on fail to get it or understand the work is more of a validation than a condemnation.

Let's try this, how 'bout we show the work of you two prize winners and of Rafael's to the top 100 art museums in the world, and whether or not they think any of it is great or would be interested in collecting or showing any of it, who's work would they at least consider an attempt at art and is worthy of at least critiquing? They'd chase you guys out of the room trying to hit you over the head with "great big donkey weenies"!!!

Jun 01 05 04:14 am Link

Photographer

Posts: 45202

San Juan Bautista, California, US

Posted by Aaron_H:

Posted by Patrick Walberg:

Posted by Select Models:

Aaron_H, please try to be more accurate with your quotations!

As I said in another thread, I see us as equals here. Your put downs of others shows that you do not believe that is true. It does not matter to me what some art museum thinks of my work. If you think that we would be "chased out with big donkey weenies," then why would we even care in the first place?

Unfortunately this entire thread seems angry and negative. I am sorry that you seem so angry and negative too.

Best wishes to you!

Jun 01 05 07:16 am Link

Photographer

Posts: 1355

Ann Arbor, Michigan, US

Posted by Patrick Walberg:

Aaron_H, please try to be more accurate with your quotations!

As I said in another thread, I see us as equals here. Your put downs of others shows that you do not believe that is true. It does not matter to me what some art museum thinks of my work. If you think that we would be "chased out with big donkey weenies," then why would we even care in the first place?

Unfortunately this entire thread seems angry and negative. I am sorry that you seem so angry and negative too.

Best wishes to you!

What on earth was inaccurate about my quoting? The guy said his work blows big donkey weenies, called him an asshole and implied he was stupid. You responded by saying he was telling the truth and the truth hurts. It seems you might not be aware that that means you're also calling him those names and saying those things about his work?

So when you put down someone so harshly and so ignorantly, while living in a glass house yourself, no, I'm sorry but I don't think you have a legitimate complaint about me putting the two of you down in response & defense of someone else and their work! What are you smoking?

So you don't care what a museum would think of your work? How did I know that would be coming? The point was that you guys were calling his work crap and caca, and questioning whether it was art, you also (yes you, because you endorsed the comments)told him to "look in the mirror." So I suggested getting a consensus from many of the most educated and experienced art world people. Contrary to one of your earlier statements, obviously many people don't know that their work sucks! And when you make the above statements it would be impossible and inexcusable not to judge your work in comparison! You won't take my word for it so I suggested outside objective sources!

Your line about "why would we care?" makes no sense whatsoever, what does that sentence mean?

I'm glad you're so upbeat and positive, it was certainly heart warming to hear the nice compliments to Rafael and see you seconding the motions. Oh, I also apologize for being so negative after your moronic friend called me a "fucking retard" in the other thread! It was so insightful and observant of you to criticize my demeanor because of the way I responded while ignoring his. I can only think that lends you much credibility. If only I can someday live up to your standards of happiness and positivity and climb out of the rut of anger & negativity ,all will be right in the world. Thanks for the inspiration.

Jun 01 05 09:10 am Link

Model

theda

Posts: 21719

New York, New York, US

"Flaming will not be tolerated. Students flaming one another will serve an hour and a half detention."

Careful with the childish name calling. Please try to insult each other like adults.

Jun 01 05 09:27 am Link

Photographer

udor

Posts: 25255

New York, New York, US

Dear Rafael;

I think I can summarize what ticked me off..., it is the arrogance that is so prevalent to put other people's work down.

BTW, I was not, in any way, feeling that the post referred to me, but felt that it was neccessary to put a damper on some of the statements, because they were simply wrong. That has nothing to do with "hating you", just with correcting the statements.

The email you have received referres to "those guys who shoot for small magazines"... I am one of them, by now I have 6 or 7 new accounts of smaller magazines and I really don't know what is wrong with that. Maybe he didn't refer to me, but what can I say...

If I have the chance to shoot for Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, Rolling Stones and Time Mag, or National Geographic... I'll do that... and I think sometimes the only way to get to those, is to shoot for the rest... which is just many smaller magazines.

I must assume that the guy who wrote you that email is shooting for those magazines. My compliments to him... but with his statement... he prooves to be just another selfrighteous arrogant guy who thinks that his shit doesn't stink!

Jun 01 05 09:34 am Link

Photographer

Worlds Of Water

Posts: 37732

Rancho Cucamonga, California, US

Aaron H comment - (What on earth was inaccurate about my quoting? The guy said his work blows big donkey weenies, called him an asshole and implied he was stupid.)

Incorrect assessment. Rafael instructed me to refer to him as an asshole, so I complied. At NO time or location in my post did I refer to him as 'stupid'... and THATS what was inaccurate about your quoting... thankyouverymuch.

Gary / Select Models

Jun 01 05 10:15 am Link

Model

Angel Tara

Posts: 2214

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Playing Devil's Advocate, being the Angel that I am.. smile

When I read the initial thread, I thought not about the new people who are trying to build a portfolio but about the people out there who call themselves professional but you personally wonder why to yourself...as you look at their pics and read ALL ABOUT their rates...

WAIT!!!!!
WAIT!
KEEP READING...

before you flame....

and then I thought, well, someone is paying them, right? So they must not suck in everyone's eyes...I guess we just have different opinions. I know there are people who look at my pictures and think they suck....there has to be, you can't please everyone!

some one is paying them right? right?

or are they...

*jedi mind trick*

(yeah, yeah...i'm silly/stupid/whatever you want to call it)

Jun 01 05 10:43 am Link

Photographer

Brian Kirk

Posts: 175

Asheville, North Carolina, US

Posted by :
I'm not trying to act like I'm all that but then again I know I have earned the right to call myself and Art Photographer.

OK just a few things ...

Model Mayhem is not an exclusive club for art photographers or art models for that matter - there are a ton of shutterbugs, commercial and whatever photographers here. Art photographers are in a separate class for sure as are the rest.

As an executive board member for a large artists association (over 250 members) for 4 years and also being on the jury for many shows as well as the portfolio review committee Ive got some experience with the whole art thing. For our portfolio reviews we decided if you were good enough to be listed as an artist member or as an associate member (ie. Were not going to let you hang your work in here just yet but sweep the floors for a couple years and we might  ). As far as I know the only way to earn the right to call yourself an art photographer is to present a list of shows youve been in. Ive produced a number of first/last whatever day events and there are two reasons youd be sitting on the sidewalk:
a) You were contacted by the promoters / sponsors to be in there location because they knew youd draw a crowd to an area that needed attention.
b) You didnt get into a show because your work didnt fit (pastels show and youre a photographer) or you didnt make the cut.
c) Your work isnt good enough to make it in the gallery

If you need a critique from someone who has some experience in the art field let me know

Jun 01 05 10:45 am Link

Photographer

Posts: 1355

Ann Arbor, Michigan, US

Posted by Select Models:
Aaron H comment - (What on earth was inaccurate about my quoting? The guy said his work blows big donkey weenies, called him an asshole and implied he was stupid.)

Incorrect assessment. Rafael instructed me to refer to him as an asshole, so I complied. At NO time or location in my post did I refer to him as 'stupid'... and THATS what was inaccurate about your quoting... thankyouverymuch.

Gary / Select Models

I said you implied he was stupid, please explain to us what the quote below is really implying then?

Posted by Select Models: Oh... and here's a news flash for you Einstein...

I'm sorry, I guess it's me who must be stupid, because silly me, I didn't realize you were sincerely positively comparing him to Einstein! How could I have missed that?

Jun 01 05 10:49 am Link

Photographer

Posts: 1355

Ann Arbor, Michigan, US

Posted by Brian Kirk: As far as I know the only way to earn the right to call yourself an art photographer is to present a list of shows youve been in.

I don't think you really believe that Brian. Personally I don't like photographers using the term "fine art" about their own work, because I think it sounds pretentious. Do photography, if you're trying to make art then hopefully it will really reach that level, but leave it up to others to call it that.

On the other hand, as a category to describe the kind of work you do, what kind of photography do I do? (I'm not talking about myself here, just a theoretical thought process) I don't do commercial work, I don't do fashion, or anything that fits too well with other standard categories, I'm trying to make art, I think what I do IS art, I can still leave it up to others to decide whether it's good art, or how good. But my intention is to make art for art's sake, not to make portraits to please a client or any other work dictated by client concerns, so I guess I'm an art photographer after all if I'm forced to put a label on it.

Regardless of what I said earlier about getting the opinion of museum curators, it's a pretty arbitrary criteria to say that one isn't an "art photographer" until he's had recognized showings. What would you call someone then that produced what would be recognized as art but hadn't had any shows? If someone submits work to a gallery or museum and then gets his first show with his already existing body of work, you're telling me that very same work wasn't art prior to the show but once it's been shown it is?

Jun 01 05 11:10 am Link

Photographer

Posts: 440

Central Square, New York, US

First off I'd like to thank Aaron_H and Angel Tara for stepping up to the plate. I know there are allot more people on this site that feel the same way they just don't have the time to get into this war I started.

Brian Kirk,

I encourage people to smash my work into the ground. That doesn't bother me in the least and I ask people to do so quite often. Keep something in mind though. Some of the greatest pieces of "fine art" were sitting in some really old house where the artist had never shown them to anyone other than maybe his/her friend and family. Lets be real, Artists crank threw work like there's no tomorrow cause they enjoy doing it a great deal. Do you really think theyll show every piece of their work if any? Just so you know I've shown my work and plan on doing it again in August for a big art networking event here in Portland. Bye the way how many times has someone given a bad critique to someones work just to find out that the people think other wise?

Jun 01 05 11:40 am Link

Photographer

Tropical Photography

Posts: 35564

Sarasota, Florida, US

What I don't understand here is when the arts, yea I consider all forms of photography art, became so damn freakin' politically correct!! Perhaps the reason that there are so many GWC pretending to be pros, is that no one bothered to tell them the truth!! And the truth can be deliveried with a soft touch without being warm and fuzzy..
Coming from a musik background, if you couldn't take harsh, but constructive, criticisim, it was time to get out of the biz. And for myself, I learned far more from that then someone telling me how wonderful my work is, be it musik or photography.. Yes, I like my ego stroked as much as the next person, but more growth comes from the occasional beat down as long as it is constructive..
SO, for all you who bite your tongues because you think someone's work bites big donkey weenies, (thanks for the line Gary), why not offer some constructive input.. Send it in a private email as opposed to making it public.. OR, are all your egos so damn big you don't want to help another "photographer" out even if they're thousands of miles away.. Instead of bitching, become a teacher.. Now, if the student wishes not to take advice, then bitch all ya want!!
I myself attended a seminar by Monty Zucker yesterday; quite informative.. He was polite but didn't pull punches when someone F'd things up.. But he did it in such a way that you didn't walk out with your tail between your legs.. You walked out knowing a little better how to push yourself to be better.. If for no other reason, to prove that you're better than the criticism...

Bottom line, some of these "hacks" are getting paid. Last time I checked, there are only to prints in the world that matter; the one you like and the one the client pays for...

So go ahead, take your shots at my work and make it public if you like.. There isn't one person on this site that can make me feel like shit.. Why, because at one point you all sucked just like the guys you whine about.. Take a look at your early stuff and say it ain't so.. Need to keep that in mind when looking at peoples work..

Again, feel free to put the hammer down on me; I look forward to the lessons!!!

Jun 01 05 11:43 am Link

Photographer

Boho Hobo

Posts: 25351

Santa Barbara, California, US

Posted by Select Models:
... mister, your pics BLOW BIG DONKEY WEENIES! Most all your stuff could have been shot by a cateract stricken senior citizen with a throw-away camera. ..

So this goes to my comment about content, how basically different strokes for different folks....I look at the glass reflection series in his port and find the work intriguing. Maybe it's because I too am drawn to the concept of what is reflected back from ourselves, maybe it's the mystery within the composition, maybe because it is a more complex image it forces me to take the time to reflect on a person/situation that normally I would just walk right past. But I like it and certainly wouldn't classify that body of work as blowing viagra enlarged donkey parts.

Jun 01 05 12:29 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 440

Central Square, New York, US

Posted by Keith aka Wolfie:
So go ahead, take your shots at my work and make it public if you like.. There isn't one person on this site that can make me feel like shit.. Why, because at one point you all sucked just like the guys you whine about.. Take a look at your early stuff and say it ain't so.. Need to keep that in mind when looking at peoples work..

Again, feel free to put the hammer down on me; I look forward to the lessons!!!

I honesty have no problems with your work. Some of it I really like and some really isn't for me but that doesn't mean it's bad. Thank you for responding is such a proper manner.

Ok one last attempt at explaining myself. Check this persons page out. https://modelmayhem.com/member.php?id=9013
Her picture isn't the best picture to post to try to get a modeling gig but there is nothing wrong with her being on this site. She is right up front about wanting to TRY to be a model. She's not claiming to be one and she knows that the picture could be allot better.

On the other hand you have people on here (again I won't point fingers) that will post trashy pictures of them selves or what ever and claim to be a model askin for paid deals and everything. Mean while their page looks like a profile in a chat room. To me this is disrespectful to real model as well as photographers that have to see that crap on a site that was meant for people to display their work and to network in the industry.

This is a bit different deal as far as "photographers" go. I fully understand that the styles of photography are very wide spread. Fine what ever. Some of them I think suck and some of them I think kick ass. My problem is the people that join these sites to boost their lonely ego. To make them feel special cause they aren't just another person in a chat room. And whats worse are the grimy fucks that come here to try to get laid. For those people yes your work is crap and so are you. You're not photographers and anyone that has a problem with that can go fuck off cause you're probably one of those people I'm talking about.

Jun 01 05 12:47 pm Link

Model

theda

Posts: 21719

New York, New York, US

You know, there are quite a few photographers that just use these sites to get laid. They're full-time, widely published professional photographers. They are also sleazy and know the internet is rife with young, naive wannabe models.

There's nothing in the by-laws that precludes you from being both a photographer *and* a schmuck.

Now please, watch your fucking language.

Jun 01 05 01:21 pm Link

Photographer

StMarc

Posts: 2959

Chicago, Illinois, US

Photographers can get laid?

"Why don't somebody tell me these things?!"

Is there a brochure or something I can buy?

M

Jun 01 05 01:55 pm Link

Makeup Artist

Camera Ready Studios

Posts: 7191

Dallas, Texas, US

Posted by theda:
You know, there are quite a few photographers that just use these sites to get laid. They're full-time, widely published professional photographers. They are also sleazy and know the internet is rife with young, naive wannabe models.

There's nothing in the by-laws that precludes you from being both a photographer *and* a schmuck.

Now please, watch your fucking language.

I agree. I don't really have a problem with bad photos, crappy photographers, models that really don't have a chance, if they really are making a sincere effort and are on the boards for the right reason.

I get a little irked when I see a woman who is clearly an exhibitionist looking for a GWC...and a GWC looking for an exhibitionist on a real modeling forum. The reason it bothers me is because it cheapens the industry, one I have been a part of most of my life. There are plenty of forums out there that to hook up on, they are made for that purpose.

I really don't think there is much you can do about these forum issues, most of the forums like this one do draw people looking to hook up and people looking for attention, you can't ignore that the world is filled with lonely and horny people and the perception is that this is the industry to find good looking people in. I think you have as many women as men using the site for the wrong reasons, lets not blame just men.

Theda is right, being a crappy photographer doesn't mean you're a creep (I think thats what she was saying) I know some very good photographers that are creeps and I know some struggling new photographers that are really nice people, just trying to learn.

So how does a forum weed out the creeps? I guess you don't until they act up and get banned, but it should have nothing to do with the quality of work, just the quality of person, IMO.

Jun 01 05 01:57 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 440

Central Square, New York, US

Posted by KM von Seidl:

Posted by Select Models:
... mister, your pics BLOW BIG DONKEY WEENIES! Most all your stuff could have been shot by a cateract stricken senior citizen with a throw-away camera. ..

KM von Seidl Thank you again,

Someone on here asked what my intent was with the pictures I took was. The reaction you just explained is the one I'm looking for in the work that I enjoy the most. I shoot allot of different things just because it helps me grow and gives me ideas. Honestly that stuff is boring to me though. If I can't read into the photograph it's just another nice picture to me. Yes I have loads of just another nice picture type crap. I've posted some of them on my port because it shows people that I can shoot in more that one style. My heart is with weirdo crap like my reflection images and the new head shots of my little girl. I like pictures that tell stories and if this makes my work suck then so be it.

Jun 01 05 02:01 pm Link

Makeup Artist

Reese

Posts: 1136

Newport News, Virginia, US

Agree with Ms. Mary and Theda indubitably...

Jun 01 05 02:04 pm Link

Photographer

DJTalStudios

Posts: 602

Seattle, Washington, US

My question is what qualifies a person the right to adopt the "Titles" Photographer/model? I earn my living from my "photography" and not by charging models for shooting them. I have a nice client list that I have grown comfortable with as they have with me. Do I qualify? I've had images published in magz, even had a few billboards. Do I qualify?

I do think the "Titles" people are so eager to adopt are nothing more than means of conveying an idea. Though I think to accuratly use it one should be actually working in that field. For example in Los Angeles when someone tells me they're an actor my first reaction is to ask what restaurant do they work at.

So what qualifies one to call themselves a photographer / model?

Jun 01 05 02:24 pm Link

Photographer