Posted by Aaron_H: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

Aaron_H, please try to be more accurate with your quotations!

As I said in another thread, I see us as equals here. Your put downs of others shows that you do not believe that is true. It does not matter to me what some art museum thinks of my work. If you think that we would be "chased out with big donkey weenies," then why would we even care in the first place?

Unfortunately this entire thread seems angry and negative. I am sorry that you seem so angry and negative too.

Best wishes to you! 

What on earth was inaccurate about my quoting? The guy said his work blows big donkey weenies, called him an asshole and implied he was stupid. You responded by saying he was telling the truth and the truth hurts. It seems you might not be aware that that means you're also calling him those names and saying those things about his work?

So when you put down someone so harshly and so ignorantly, while living in a glass house yourself, no, I'm sorry but I don't think you have a legitimate complaint about me putting the two of you down in response & defense of someone else and their work! What are you smoking?

So you don't care what a museum would think of your work? How did I know that would be coming? The point was that you guys were calling his work crap and caca, and questioning whether it was art, you also (yes you, because you endorsed the comments)told him to "look in the mirror."  So I suggested getting a consensus from many of the most educated and experienced art world people. Contrary to one of your earlier statements, obviously many people don't know that their work sucks! And when you make the above statements it would be impossible and inexcusable not to judge your work in comparison! You won't take my word for it so I suggested outside objective sources!

Your line about "why would we care?" makes no sense whatsoever, what does that sentence mean?

I'm glad you're so upbeat and positive, it was certainly heart warming to hear the nice compliments to Rafael and see you seconding the motions. Oh, I also apologize for being so negative after your moronic friend called me a "fucking retard" in the other thread! It was so insightful and observant of you to criticize my demeanor because of the way I responded while ignoring his. I can only think that lends you much credibility. If only I can someday live up to your standards of happiness and positivity and climb out of the rut of anger & negativity ,all will be right in the world. Thanks for the inspiration.

What I meant that the quotations were wrong in you last post with my name as the one quoted. So I fixed that! As far as the rest of this mud slinging goes ... I felt that "select" was telling him the truth as to "his own" opinion which is what Rafael is struggling over. My answer is to say the truth. If we don't hear the truth, then we can't make choices to change it. "The truth is out there ..."  (Yes, I am an X Files fan! lol)

I guess I got hit by some of the mud, but I am stepping back from this fight anyway.

Posted by Aaron_H: 

Posted by Brian Kirk:   As far as I know the only way to earn the right to call yourself an art photographer is to present a list of shows you’ve been in.

I don't think you really believe that Brian. Personally I don't like photographers using the term "fine art" about their own work, because I think it sounds pretentious. Do photography, if you're trying to make art then hopefully it will really reach that level, but leave it up to others to call it that.

Regardless of what I said earlier about getting the opinion of museum curators, it's a pretty arbitrary criteria to say that one isn't an "art photographer" until he's had recognized showings. What would you call someone then that produced what would be recognized as art but hadn't had any shows? If someone submits work to a gallery or museum and then gets his first show with his already existing body of work, you're telling me that very same work wasn't art prior to the show but once it's been shown it is?

Ok I think we're splitting hairs here.  Do I really believe that - no not universally but if you're going to say you've earned the right to call yourself an art photographer I can come up with no more concise criteria.  You don’t like the fine art term – fine – come up with something better – the gallery people tell me that’s what it is.

What would you call someone then that produced what would be recognized as art but hadn't had any shows?

pothead, burnout, street person …

Seriously though, the whole its not validated till it’s shown is false – but like I said before let’s get a better criteria.

Posted by Brian Kirk: 
What would you call someone then that produced what would be recognized as art but hadn't had any shows?

pothead, burnout, street person …

After reading that the first thing that comes to mind is WOW. Let me guess you're a racist too? Someone that would have the audacity to make such an assumption about an artist just because he or she chooses not to show their work in a gallery that has people like you running it is way over the top foul bro. People that make comments like that sicken me. Ok so some people might think your work is good. I personally know people that have great jobs, big houses, plenty of money, and never do any drugs or drink and yet their work is on a level that you aren't even close to. These people choose not to show their work because of cats like you in the industry making comments like the one you just made. You remind me of the jack off teacher in that movie "Finding Forrester". You know what's worse is that I have allot more respect for those burn outs, potheads, and street people than I'll ever have for you. You as a person are crap bro and I pray that one day you wake up to the real world.

Posted by Brian Kirk: 
What would you call someone then that produced what would be recognized as art but hadn't had any shows?

pothead, burnout, street person …

Sorry the sarcasm didn't make it throught the internet - it's a joke ...

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 

Posted by Brian Kirk: 
What would you call someone then that produced what would be recognized as art but hadn't had any shows?

pothead, burnout, street person …

After reading that the first thing that comes to mind is WOW. Let me guess you're a racist too? Someone that would have the audacity to make such an assumption about an artist just because he or she chooses not to show their work in a gallery that has people like you running it is way over the top foul bro. People that make comments like that sicken me. Ok so some people might think your work is good. I personally know people that have great jobs, big houses, plenty of money, and never do any drugs or drink and yet their work is on a level that you aren't even close to. These people choose not to show their work because of cats like you in the industry making comments like the one you just made. You remind me of the jack off teacher in that movie "Finding Forrester". You know what's worse is that I have allot more respect for those burn outs, potheads, and street people than I'll ever have for you. You as a person are crap bro and I pray that one day you wake up to the real world.

OK there's nothing about race here. 

Nobody has to show - but if you're going off on a rant about  how all this work sucks and the models are skanky and you're a real art photographer I think you might wanna be ready to come back with a why this is ...

I lost my house after 9/11 because we relied on international tourists for our sales.  This wasn't a commercial gallery but more of a grass roots collective - working studios with a gallery. I don't have the big money anymore - I quit that to devote myself to art. I got clean and sober when you were 7 ...

I'm a little more down to earth than you might imagine.  I'm sorry you took offense at that. 

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 

Posted by DJ Foothill: 
For example in Los Angeles when someone tells me they're an actor my first reaction is to ask what restaurant do they work at.

Doesn't that suck? What if someone told you that after you said your were a photographer? I don't know about anyone else but I'd be hot.

It may suck but it's more often than not a FACT in LA. And I've had many people ask who I've shot, and I love watching their jaw drop when I tell them or show them my book. But photographers don't usually get that what restaurant do you work at question.

I was once having lunch with a model who is VERY well known, and we were talking about a photographer she had shot with when our waiter started in on how he was an actor, and was talking about me being a photographer. He asked me that very question, I leaned across the table and asked the model how many times I had shot her, He FINALLY recognized who she was and dropped his order book. =o)

Posted by Brian Kirk: 
Nobody has to show - but if you're going off on a rant about  how all this work sucks and the models are skanky and you're a real art photographer I think you might wanna be ready to come back with a why this is ...

Can you please go back and read a little because unless I'm loosing my memmory I don't recal saying "I'm a Real art photographer" or "All this work sucks" or "The models are skanky". Adding words or cutting them out where you choose will make what I said come out that way. So this time go back and read with out adding words that I didn't say and read all of my posts.

Posted by DJ Foothill: 
It may suck but it's more often than not a FACT in LA. And I've had many people ask who I've shot, and I love watching their jaw drop when I tell them or show them my book. But photographers don't usually get that what restaurant do you work at question.

I was once having lunch with a model who is VERY well known, and we were talking about a photographer she had shot with when our waiter started in on how he was an actor, and was talking about me being a photographer. He asked me that very question, I leaned across the table and asked the model how many times I had shot her, He FINALLY recognized who she was and dropped his order book. =o)

Nice stories. None the less it's pretty insulting. And it's a result of cats not standing their ground and protecting the image of what they do for a living. Let’s go back to the race topic for a moment. I'm Cuban and a pretty big guy with a buzz cut and the whole deal. You know how many people look at me like I'm the shit of the earth with out giving a thought to who I really am? Little do they know I work for the Federal Government and get paid pretty good. I have 2 business (The Magician's Eye & TME Sound Studios), I'm a full time single parent, I drive an old lady car, and I've earned all of this on my own from ground zero. Outside of me being an asshole from time to time I'm a cool ass dude. So yeah the image of what I've worked so hard to get means a great deal to me. It's bad enough that cats think the worse of me as it is, I'm not going to sit back and let them do it to everything that I've worked for to. That might be ok for the rest of you but it’s not ok with me.

Posted by : 
So am I the only person on this site that looks at other peoples pages and has to really talk myself out of posted a message that wouldn't be taken very well? I just see so many "models" and "photographers" that are full of crap. It's like they go join sites like this just because it makes them feel special. Just because "everyone" thinks you're cute or you’re willing to get skanky in front of the camera doesn't mean you're a model. Just because you take pictures of girls all the time doesn't make you a photographer. I can take pictures of females all day long and that doesn't make me a photographer it just means that I'm into photography. Some of you guys know damn well that you have no business calling yourselves a photographer or a model. Call me an asshole but I real do side with the models and photographers that get pissed off at some of the cats on these sites. I'm not trying to act like I'm all that but then again I know I have earned the right to call myself and Art Photographer. It's going to be real nice to see someone put a site up that makes people apply to be a member of. Real the over flooding of garbage on sites like these just makes the real photographers and models leave. Have you ever wondered why it is that when you finaly catch wind of a new site that you see the real models and photographers already there? It's because the people that built the site asked them to join as soon as the site was finished. Anyway I'm don venting and please feel free to respond as needed. I'll be reading but I didn't make this post to get into a back and forth pissing match with people on here. I already said what I needed to say.

Rafael, I would like to know how you qualify to determine who is a photographer and who is not? If someone is less successful then you they cannot be a photographer? If they create images you don't like or that you don't think are good they are not a photographer?

I like the photos of your daughter but I do not like the others but how can anyone say your not a photographer, just as you cannot say that about anyone else because they do not fit your definition of what a photographer is.

I sense arrogance in you Rafael your profile states "I realized that this was fun and that I was good at it. Well in 2002 I took a black and white photography class and again realized how good I was at this with little to no effort." I do believe you think your all that AND a bag of chips and it reflects in your postings. If your the legendary photographer you seem to think you are then perhaps you should use that talent to guide other photographers that have to work at being photographers instead of knocking them down.

My two and a half cents worth.

Posted by David Holloway: 
Rafael, I would like to know how you qualify to determine who is a photographer and who is not? If someone is less successful then you they cannot be a photographer? If they create images you don't like or that you don't think are good they are not a photographer?

I like the photos of your daughter but I do not like the others but how can anyone say your not a photographer, just as you cannot say that about anyone else because they do not fit your definition of what a photographer is.

I sense arrogance in you Rafael your profile states "I realized that this was fun and that I was good at it. Well in 2002 I took a black and white photography class and again realized how good I was at this with little to no effort." I do believe you think your all that AND a bag of chips and it reflects in your postings. If your the legendary photographer you seem to think you are then perhaps you should use that talent to guide other photographers that have to work at being photographers instead of knocking them down.

My two and a half cents worth.

You sense arrogance, I sence I guy that didn't read all the posts.

Posted by David Holloway: 
Actually I did... I your last post proved my point.

Why don't you expand on this thought? Because hell maybe I should start adding "arrogant" before the asshole part? If me knowing and stating that I realized I'm good at something makes me arrogant then I sure am. I'm very poud of the things that I know I'm good at. God gave me a gift and yeah I'm real happy about it.

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 

Posted by DJ Foothill: 
It may suck but it's more often than not a FACT in LA. And I've had many people ask who I've shot, and I love watching their jaw drop when I tell them or show them my book. But photographers don't usually get that what restaurant do you work at question.

I was once having lunch with a model who is VERY well known, and we were talking about a photographer she had shot with when our waiter started in on how he was an actor, and was talking about me being a photographer. He asked me that very question, I leaned across the table and asked the model how many times I had shot her, He FINALLY recognized who she was and dropped his order book. =o)

Nice stories. None the less it's pretty insulting. And it's a result of cats not standing their ground and protecting the image of what they do for a living. Let’s go back to the race topic for a moment. I'm Cuban and a pretty big guy with a buzz cut and the whole deal. You know how many people look at me like I'm the shit of the earth with out giving a thought to who I really am? Little do they know I work for the Federal Government and get paid pretty good. I have 2 business (The Magician's Eye & TME Sound Studios), I'm a full time single parent, I drive an old lady car, and I've earned all of this on my own from ground zero. Outside of me being an asshole from time to time I'm a cool ass dude. So yeah the image of what I've worked so hard to get means a great deal to me. It's bad enough that cats think the worse of me as it is, I'm not going to sit back and let them do it to everything that I've worked for to. That might be ok for the rest of you but it’s not ok with me.

OK well what ground does a guy waiting tables who calls himself an actor when the closest he's been to a set is the Universal Studios tour have to stand? He's a WAITER NOT an actor.

Im happy for your accomplishments but how does that make you any more a photographer than a GWC? And what does ethnic background have to do with anything. Im black with a shaved head. And when Im home I could drive a 400K car and cops could pull me over for practice. What does that have to do with being a photographer or not?

You claim that you've earned the right to call yourself an Art Photographer. Well how did you EARN the right to empower yourself with that title?

In reality you may be nothing more than a GWC who takes artsy pictures. You get mad at stuff people post here. Get over yourself. I wonder what people like Herb Ritts, Ansel Adams, Gilles Bensimons would say about what you shoot. And if you've earned the right to call yourself a photographer.

Will I ever be a Herb Ritts, or anything like that? Probably not. Do I care? Nope I get my shoot rate, and the client's checks don't bounce and that is all I care about. Nothing else matters. And NOT being them gives me something to strive for.

Not everyone WANTS gallery showings, or to be published in magazines. Some people do it just for the sheer enjoyment of it. And they get paid very well for it.

And in reality, I get paid very well when I shoot for myself or clients. Do I give a damn about noobs posting images with their $40.00 Kodak Digicam? Nope. Do they stand a chance in hell of somehow damageing MY "Image" or reputation as a photographer? Nope. It actually helps. And it also shows potential. It's all about the eye not the equipment.

And why are you so worried about your "Image"? It's an IMAGE. It isn't real. What you put out there is real and that is all that counts. Ooooh so you've had some schooling. Big fat deal. There are photographers who've never been to a class that can warp some of the photography "giants". So much freaking ego on these sites from both models and photographers. Get over it. Just do your thing.

Bottom line if you take pictures you're a photographer. If you make money for doing it you're a professional photographer all the rest is an argument of semantics and in my mind is useless.

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 

Posted by David Holloway: 
Actually I did... I your last post proved my point.

Why don't you expand on this thought? Because hell maybe I should start adding "arrogant" before the asshole part? If me knowing and stating that I realized I'm good at something makes me arrogant then I sure am. I'm very poud of the things that I know I'm good at. God gave me a gift and yeah I'm real happy about it.

Being good at something does not make you arrogant. You have decided that because people who are not as good as you are or create images that you don't think are good do not have any right to call themselves a photographer and that is arrogant.

You spend more time bashing people who might not be as good as you are and have taken it upon yourself to decide who are photographers and who are models and who are not. If your as good as you claim why not teach the people who need more guidance instead of knocking them down. Why not focus your energy on helping those photographers get better instead of ranting about how bad they are and how dare they call themselves photographers.

Posted by DJ Foothill: 

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 

Posted by DJ Foothill: 
It may suck but it's more often than not a FACT in LA. And I've had many people ask who I've shot, and I love watching their jaw drop when I tell them or show them my book. But photographers don't usually get that what restaurant do you work at question.

I was once having lunch with a model who is VERY well known, and we were talking about a photographer she had shot with when our waiter started in on how he was an actor, and was talking about me being a photographer. He asked me that very question, I leaned across the table and asked the model how many times I had shot her, He FINALLY recognized who she was and dropped his order book. =o)

Nice stories. None the less it's pretty insulting. And it's a result of cats not standing their ground and protecting the image of what they do for a living. Let’s go back to the race topic for a moment. I'm Cuban and a pretty big guy with a buzz cut and the whole deal. You know how many people look at me like I'm the shit of the earth with out giving a thought to who I really am? Little do they know I work for the Federal Government and get paid pretty good. I have 2 business (The Magician's Eye & TME Sound Studios), I'm a full time single parent, I drive an old lady car, and I've earned all of this on my own from ground zero. Outside of me being an asshole from time to time I'm a cool ass dude. So yeah the image of what I've worked so hard to get means a great deal to me. It's bad enough that cats think the worse of me as it is, I'm not going to sit back and let them do it to everything that I've worked for to. That might be ok for the rest of you but it’s not ok with me.

OK well what ground does a guy waiting tables who calls himself an actor when the closest he's been to a set is the Universal Studios tour have to stand? He's a WAITER NOT an actor.

Im happy for your accomplishments but how does that make you any more a photographer than a GWC? And what does ethnic background have to do with anything. Im black with a shaved head. And when Im home I could drive a 400K car and cops could pull me over for practice. What does that have to do with being a photographer or not?

You claim that you've earned the right to call yourself an Art Photographer. Well how did you EARN the right to empower yourself with that title?

In reality you may be nothing more than a GWC who takes artsy pictures. You get mad at stuff people post here. Get over yourself. I wonder what people like Herb Ritts, Ansel Adams, Gilles Bensimons would say about what you shoot. And if you've earned the right to call yourself a photographer.

Will I ever be a Herb Ritts, or anything like that? Probably not. Do I care? Nope I get my shoot rate, and the client's checks don't bounce and that is all I care about. Nothing else matters. And NOT being them gives me something to strive for.

Not everyone WANTS gallery showings, or to be published in magazines. Some people do it just for the sheer enjoyment of it. And they get paid very well for it.

And in reality, I get paid very well when I shoot for myself or clients. Do I give a damn about noobs posting images with their $40.00 Kodak Digicam? Nope. Do they stand a chance in hell of somehow damageing MY "Image" or reputation as a photographer? Nope. It actually helps. And it also shows potential. It's all about the eye not the equipment.

And why are you so worried about your "Image"? It's an IMAGE. It isn't real. What you put out there is real and that is all that counts. Ooooh so you've had some schooling. Big fat deal. There are photographers who've never been to a class that can warp some of the photography "giants". So much freaking ego on these sites from both models and photographers. Get over it. Just do your thing.

Bottom line if you take pictures you're a photographer. If you make money for doing it you're a professional photographer all the rest is an argument of semantics and in my mind is useless.

RIGHT ON!

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 
What is it about this question that people don't understand, "So am I the only person on this site that looks at other peoples pages and has to really talk myself out of posted a message that wouldn't be taken very well?"?

This is what this post was about a simple yes or not question. I followed my question up with an explanation about why I'm asking it.

I haven't been thru this whole thread yet but I was inclined to respond to this one so please forgive me if I am repeating anyone's posts.

We all have our opinions, whether good or bad, but it's not what we say rather it's how we say it.  If you do not like a certain image and feel so inclined to comment do so, but do it in a respectful way.

My opinion on commenting: if you like it, tell them; if you don't like it, tell them what you would have done to improve it (in constructive manner).  With that said, I've never had someone angry with me for commenting on what I thought was a less-than-perfect image.  We're all here to learn, even the "professionals"...

And if all else fails and you can't help but think of bad things to comment on then go with the old rule: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." 

Thanks for listening

~Kortney

Posted by David Holloway: 
You have decided that because people who are not as good as you are or create images that you don't think are good do not have any right to call themselves a photographer and that is arrogant.

If you can't read don't comment and yu sure as hell should turn around and say they I said something that I didn't. I'd like for you to show me word for word where I said that if people aren't as good as me then they aren't photographers? If that's what makes me Arrogent then I guess I'm not and I guess that makes you A.D.D. cause you clearly didn't pay attention when you read because I never said that.

Posted by David Holloway:
You spend more time bashing people who might not be as good as you are and have taken it upon yourself to decide who are photographers and who are models and who are not.

Bashing people huh? Can you please tell me what person on this site that I've bashed. I don't remember telling anyone who I was talking about. Matter of fact I clearly remember saying that I wasn't going to point fingers and made many attemps at trying to help cats like you understand what I'm saying. I'm now at the point where I can't think of any other way of teaching you how to pay attention to what you read.

DJ Foothill,
I guess my last post that I quoted you on went way over your head. Sorry about that I was hoping for more of an understanding from you. But I guess I have to put you in the same boat as David Holloway.

Posted by Ephotique: 

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 
What is it about this question that people don't understand, "So am I the only person on this site that looks at other peoples pages and has to really talk myself out of posted a message that wouldn't be taken very well?"?

This is what this post was about a simple yes or not question. I followed my question up with an explanation about why I'm asking it.

I haven't been thru this whole thread yet but I was inclined to respond to this one so please forgive me if I am repeating anyone's posts.

We all have our opinions, whether good or bad, but it's not what we say rather it's how we say it.  If you do not like a certain image and feel so inclined to comment do so, but do it in a respectful way.

My opinion on commenting: if you like it, tell them; if you don't like it, tell them what you would have done to improve it (in constructive manner).  With that said, I've never had someone angry with me for commenting on what I thought was a less-than-perfect image.  We're all here to learn, even the "professionals"...

And if all else fails and you can't help but think of bad things to comment on then go with the old rule: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." 

Thanks for listening

~Kortney

Hi Kortney. In my profile I actualy invite constructive criticism. Some people don't realize that we could have the next Ansel Adams out there who might just give up creating if all they hear is negativity.

Posted by ( ANT ) Mgaphoto: 
It is always amusing to see some people here who have their heads so far up their ass they don't realize they are debating through an online modeling forum, lol.

And there is no winning this one! It was already won in someones eyes.

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 
DJ Foothill,
I guess my last post that I quoted you on went way over your head. Sorry about that I was hoping for more of an understanding from you. But I guess I have to put you in the same boat as David Holloway.

It didn't go over my head. You simply had no point that was of any relevance. Nothing substantial to back up your claim. You still have yet to express why it is that you think that you have "EARNED" the right to call yourself a photographer.

Why would you be hoping for more of an understanding from ME? And if David is in the I get paid well for what I do then I'm already in that boat.

As I said people posting bad work or work worse than mine only reinforces my ability to get shoots. So why should it bother me? Your work has nothing to do with mine or any affect on it. Just as my work has nothing to do with or any affect on anyone elses work.

Simply put you're letting your ego and arrogance get in the way of your good sense.

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 
More than about if one should criticize or not, this seems to be about labels to me.

I hate labels. I am not much good at anything and don't claim to be. So my attitude is that life is a gift to be enjoyed.  I will never be better than anyone else, and I have no intentions of trying, however I do try to be the best for me.  It's humble, but works for me.

A while back ago, I took my friend Hector Villalobos to lunch. He was done well in business and owns many businesses in town. Hector always has stayed out of the spotlight so that people don't focus on him. He is humble like me.

We went to a restaurant owned and operated by some high school friends of mine. A few of the waitresses gathered at our table while I introduced Hector. They asked him "what do you do?" And he differed that question to me. I answered "Hector is an entrepreneur. He wears many hats and does things that interest him."  Hector just smiled and nodded yes ... he knew I'd give the right answer. 

Who cares what car you drive, who much money you have in the bank or how much property you own. When you are dead and gone, that is not what people are going to remember about you.

True.

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 
Can you please go back and read a little because unless I'm loosing my memmory I don't recal saying "I'm a Real art photographer"

Let's see. In your first post you wrote:

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez:
I'm not trying to act like I'm all that but then again I know I have earned the right to call myself and Art Photographer.

which seems very much like saying what you don't recall saying.

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 
And it's a result of cats not standing their ground and protecting the image of what they do for a living.

Um, the post you're responding to was about people who make their living doing something other than what they're trying to do. In that case, acting. For many photographers, it's doing something else as well--I teach Photoshop, I consult with photographers on digital workflow, and I'm a software engineer--all of which make me more money than my photography does directly.

Does that make me less of a photographer? Should I get upset and insist on "protecting the image of what {I} do for a living" when someone says I'm not a photographer?

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 
You sense arrogance, I sence I guy that didn't read all the posts.

He'd not be the only one. Did you my earlier post in this thread about misunderstandings and communication?

From the beginning of this thread, you've repeatedly made claims and "defended" them without providing any substance to the claims. Whether that you're an art photographer or a novice, a world-famous fashion photographer or a hack, a great printer or someone who can't get good blacks or white in a print, if you're spending time and energy on photography, you're a photographer.

Almost every advanced photographer I know realizes how little they've mastered, and how much more there is to learn. They don't pat themselves on the back about "God [giving them] a gift" And all of them went through a phase where you said they shouldn't have called themselves photographers, no matter how many shows they've had, magazine ads or covers they've had, or anything else.

There are few worse things than ONLY believing those who agree with you, and dismissing everything that disagrees with that worldview. The opposite--believing only the bad that people say about you--isn't good, but it's at least an opportunity for growth.

As for...

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez:Can you please tell me what person on this site that I've bashed.

You'd just said:

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez:
You as a person are crap bro and I pray that one day you wake up to the real world.

Posted by Kevin Connery: 

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 
Can you please go back and read a little because unless I'm loosing my memmory I don't recal saying "I'm a Real art photographer"

Let's see. In your first post you wrote:

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez:
I'm not trying to act like I'm all that but then again I know I have earned the right to call myself and Art Photographer.

which seems very much like saying what you don't recall saying.

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 
And it's a result of cats not standing their ground and protecting the image of what they do for a living.

Um, the post you're responding to was about people who make their living doing something other than what they're trying to do. In that case, acting. For many photographers, it's doing something else as well--I teach Photoshop, I consult with photographers on digital workflow, and I'm a software engineer--all of which make me more money than my photography does directly.

Does that make me less of a photographer? Should I get upset and insist on "protecting the image of what {I} do for a living" when someone says I'm not a photographer?

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez: 
You sense arrogance, I sence I guy that didn't read all the posts.

He'd not be the only one. Did you my earlier post in this thread about misunderstandings and communication?

From the beginning of this thread, you've repeatedly made claims and "defended" them without providing any substance to the claims. Whether that you're an art photographer or a novice, a world-famous fashion photographer or a hack, a great printer or someone who can't get good blacks or white in a print, if you're spending time and energy on photography, you're a photographer.

Almost every advanced photographer I know realizes how little they've mastered, and how much more there is to learn. They don't pat themselves on the back about "God [giving them] a gift" And all of them went through a phase where you said they shouldn't have called themselves photographers, no matter how many shows they've had, magazine ads or covers they've had, or anything else.

There are few worse things than ONLY believing those who agree with you, and dismissing everything that disagrees with that worldview. The opposite--believing only the bad that people say about you--isn't good, but it's at least an opportunity for growth.

As for...

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez:Can you please tell me what person on this site that I've bashed.

You'd just said:

Posted by Rafael  Alvarez:
You as a person are crap bro and I pray that one day you wake up to the real world.

Very nicely said.

Posted by DJ Foothill: 
So much freaking ego on these sites from both models and photographers. Get over it. Just do your thing.

Bottom line if you take pictures you're a photographer. If you make money for doing it you're a professional photographer all the rest is an argument of semantics and in my mind is useless.

W O R D ! ! !

Posted by Brian Kirk: 

Posted by Aaron_H: 

Posted by Brian Kirk:   As far as I know the only way to earn the right to call yourself an art photographer is to present a list of shows you’ve been in.

I don't think you really believe that Brian. Personally I don't like photographers using the term "fine art" about their own work, because I think it sounds pretentious. Do photography, if you're trying to make art then hopefully it will really reach that level, but leave it up to others to call it that.

Regardless of what I said earlier about getting the opinion of museum curators, it's a pretty arbitrary criteria to say that one isn't an "art photographer" until he's had recognized showings. What would you call someone then that produced what would be recognized as art but hadn't had any shows? If someone submits work to a gallery or museum and then gets his first show with his already existing body of work, you're telling me that very same work wasn't art prior to the show but once it's been shown it is?

Ok I think we're splitting hairs here.  Do I really believe that - no not universally but if you're going to say you've earned the right to call yourself an art photographer I can come up with no more concise criteria.  You don’t like the fine art term – fine – come up with something better – the gallery people tell me that’s what it is.

What would you call someone then that produced what would be recognized as art but hadn't had any shows?

pothead, burnout, street person …

Seriously though, the whole its not validated till it’s shown is false – but like I said before let’s get a better criteria.

I'm responding to this without having read anything that follows yet, which is probably a mistake, but anyway, I was saying I don't like the sound of a photographer describing his own work as "fine art," just because I think that besides being an established category of photography in many eyes, it's also a judgement on the work that just comes off wrong to me out of one's own mouth. Let the viewer decide if it's art or not. But I was mostly talking about how I'd feel about describing my own work more than complaining about how others do it. I guess I think a better term would just be photographer. But of course that doesn't narrow down or describe the nature of what you do. It's a problem I guess