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Charging a minimum amount for TFPs
Extra kudos' to Sanders McNew and Brandon Luna for making such excellent points! When I started out in the film days a good 10 years ago or more ... I would conduct model searches where I'd run an ad for models who would like to "test" for future work. I'd charge a small fee of $20 - $30 to cover the cost of film and processing and if they wanted to get any of the pictures, they pay for those too. Not one single person ever complained! Now a days we can produce pictures out of electronic media and there are many who don't understand how they have ... changed the industry as a result. It has happened to the music industry too! Bryan Adams ("Cut's Like a Knife" fame!) has been recording in his own hotel rooms while on tour! The days of analog tape and big recording studios are numbered. The days of big corporate major labels are too! I meet kids all the time ... 17 year old guys who have gotten together to form a rock and roll band post on MySpace. They get together and record on Dad's expensive Mac then sell their CD's of $10 a pop at their shows. I even have been in some of the old style recording studios and now see that the old monster tape deck and sound board have been replaced by a Mac system! I like these changes! It means more people have access to the technology needed to produce quality product if they know how to do it. Certainly the downside is that easy access to the technology is that more people who are not "good enough" will attempt to be photographers or music stars. Most of course will not make it to the top, but many will enjoy it as a hobby and appreciate those who do climb to the top of their field. Oh ... what was the question? LOL j/k So I pay some, then get paid by some and some I just give it away. It's my choice regardless of what others want to call it. Jun 04 05 04:40 pm Link News Flash! Coming from the Hollywood market! LOL The hip hop artist I work with is "required" to provide vinyl records for the DJ's to spin in clubs. While the traditional model industry there is still requiring zed cards and other paper product. AND even the magazine photographer pro's I've talked with are shooting chrome scanned to CD's, while keeping their foot in the door of both digital and wet film processing. I know this thread is really about "charging or not charging" for "tfp" but the digital age has an awful lot to do with that. Change takes time, but I hope we never forget the old days! Jun 04 05 04:50 pm Link It's called part pay/part TFP, and it happens more often than some think, in both directions. Usually it's when one of the parties is much more experienced than the other, but sees enough talent in the other that there is a desire to get a signed release and be able to use the images in personal portfolios or for web promotion; thus the greatly reduced rate in return for that right. But I don't think it has anything to do with covering mailing costs, that's being kind of cheap, don't you think? And Jerry... I remember when guys with film cameras did stuff for free just to look at a pretty girl. I know one guy who was doing it in the 60s, I've seen his prints and he's not any better now that he's bought a digital camera than he was then with film. He just contributes less to the local economy now that he doesn't have to pay for processing. Jun 04 05 04:58 pm Link Jun 04 05 05:36 pm Link Posted by Tim Baker: I have never paid for a TFP/CD but my mom and I try to always take the photographer out to eat before or after the shoot....or we will get a small gift (a St. Christopher was given to one photographer that collects Saints and has Saint tattoos)...so we try.... Jun 04 05 05:37 pm Link Posted by theda: Posted by James Graham: I'm calling it Mumbo Face Dogpatch Banana from now on. I just hope somone else knows what I mean... ROFL @ Theda! MM never disappoints for good one-liners! Jun 04 05 05:45 pm Link Thank you all for some very interesting insight. However, yesterday I spent 1/2 the day editing 15 final images on a TFP, burned the all the other images onto disks (3 all togehter) with cases, wrote her a thank you note, and spent $5.00 mailing the disks to her. I have 14 more models to finish up with. Each costs me some amount of money. If I take my car to the auto repair place, I know they're not going to do the work for free. I have a huge portfolio, and I do not advertise for TFPs or Small Fee to Cover Costs (SFCC?). As well, I buy lunch or dinner for the model (and generally their escort and my assistant). I don't need to do TFPs, but generally have a soft heart for new models trying to get started, so if I have the time, I still do them, although I've significantly limited the number I do, now. I had one model contact me for a TFP, who listed on her OMP site over 30 photographers she has shot with. I would have loved to have shot her, but I felt like at this point she had abused the concept of TFPs. I told her no, I was booked. She replied back that she like my style and wanted photos like mine. Again, I politely declined her 'wants.' My point is that our time is valuable. However, I also understand the model's time is valuable. However, I have also noticed a new trend of where once a model get's her 'free' portfolio by using our time and equipment, they suddenly stop shooting TFPs and start charging for their modeling time. We pay models when we're shooting for a paying client, but for model portfolio development, I believe our time is not worthless ... Just like a co-payment when we go to the doctor or pharmacy, I would suggest that a co-pay of a small amount would discourage those models we know aren't going to make it from asking for free time, while not discouraging the talented models from seeking our services. Cheers, Tim from www.portlandfilmworks.com PS I costed out my last TFP - not including my time, and it cost me just about $100 for the 3 hours we shot (including dinner for her and her escort, plus cab fare for them to get home). I may seem to be venting here, but I'm not. I guess I'm tired of feeling used to some extent from models with extensive portfolios already. I now screen each model on OMP carefully and won't shoot the abusers. None-the-less, there is still a cost to me, just as there is to anyone running a business. Mr. Goodwrinch didn't get his/her tools and knowledge for free. Jun 04 05 07:24 pm Link Posted by Tim Baker: I'm not sure that it's fair to say that a model is "abusing a privilege", whether he/she chooses to shoot 1 TFP or 1000, if the shoot is mutually beneficial, what could be the problem? I think if people don't want to participate in TFP's, they should just say that and not complain about all the costs incurred while continuing to shoot them. Jun 04 05 07:48 pm Link Ahhh yes...the lovely TFP, TFCD, TFWTF issue. lol I usually stop in the middle of the shoot to eat lunch because I usually don't have time to eat before the shoot. Or I'll eat directly after the shoot. I need the energy or else the images will suck if I'm not totally into the groove of things. As a photographer, you should be able to write everything off as a business expense. Even if you do it just as a hobby. You can claim it as your own business. As a model, I can write off everything and anything. Clothes, make-up, food, gas, car maintenance. I also have my own mobile grooming business, so there's more tax write offs there. So I don't think the issue is the expenses of shipping and CDs. That's the cheapest part. I think if anything, the photographer should want some expense for editing the images. Jun 04 05 08:02 pm Link Posted by Tim Baker: Tim, if you feel used by models, then why do you do shoot them? Jun 04 05 08:09 pm Link A good think to remember is that the model is taking time of her own as well. When I do tfp, i travel as well, and 9 x's out of 10 its to the photographer. So, really it all comes out in the wash, no matter how you look at it. Jun 04 05 08:16 pm Link Sanders, I don't feel used by the models. I feel some models are abusing the TFP concept when they already have shot with 30 or so photographers and apparently have a huge portfolio. Those are the models I won't shoot a TFP with. At that point in their career, they shouldn't expect a photographer to give their time away for free. I will not shoot a model with an extensive portfolio TFP; I only work with one, perhaps two, per month who are just starting out and need some help and guidance. Cheers, Tim Jun 04 05 08:22 pm Link Posted by Tim Baker: Jun 04 05 08:29 pm Link Posted by Patrick Walberg: My attempts to say this were likely lost with my limited english skills. I think TFP has many levels and separate question and answers. By the way I am stoping if possible the use of the term TFP in my writing, I will call them shoots. Jun 05 05 12:41 am Link Posted by marksora: Posted by Patrick Walberg: My attempts to say this were likely lost with my limited english skills. I think TFP has many levels and separate question and answers. By the way I am stoping if possible the use of the term TFP in my writing, I will call them shoots. Mark, Thank you! Sometimes just a few words is enough. Jun 05 05 02:27 am Link As someone who is jsut starting out I feel sometimes I don't have the right to say anything to seasoned pros such as many of you. I want to become a professional photographer which means I take allot of crap from other photographers about my mistakes and my lack of experience. What I would like to say to some of you is this; if you agree to do a TFP or Test Shoot or what ever you call it you should be either professional or mature enough to stick to what you and the other party have agreed to when you talked. If I tell a model or client I will do something for them for free then no matter what the cost is it is mine and they are not to worry about anything. If I tell them there is a cost it is their choice to hire me and pay the cost. I don't know maybe I have it all wrong, maybe something as easy as common respect for another person is too hard for some people to understand. I just hope I don't turn into one of those people cause it will destroy everything I want to be when I can call myself a photographer. Jun 05 05 03:48 am Link Posted by James Graham: When I've inquired those that I've previously worked w/ the very same question that's our current forum thread. Jun 05 05 10:32 am Link Posted by Sanders McNew: Posted by Jeremy Lelii: Posted by Sanders McNew: I thought models dont eat... lol I've had two models collapse mid-session. Both said that they had not eaten all day so they would not look too big in the photos. Don't get me started. Jesus. Now, that's a situation I've never seen anyone mention before. Jun 06 05 02:49 am Link seems like everyone is concered with cost and who pays and the benefits. In reality as a photog you should only consider tfp if you will benefit from the shoot and equally goes for the model. as long as both are allowed to benefit then shooting tfp should be a no brainer. but, when one no longer benefits from the shoot (either model or photog) then they should walk away. because, time is money. Even though I am new to photography (but over a decade in advertising and print industry), I am already getting offers to shoot that I find no benefit for my portfolio, in which this point I set a resonable rate depending upon what is being asked for. of course, I will always help those that allowed me refine my work along the way (as long as it's not abused), something for both photog and model to consider. by the way I will never take a tfp/tfcd shoot for someone who tells me their from the barbizon school of modeling, seems like these girls get brain washed over there. Jun 08 05 03:32 am Link Posted by Tim Baker: Tim I usually have the model pay from the hair and make-up artist if I provide one for her, otherwise if a TFP.... Jun 08 05 10:59 am Link To me, Photography is a business, and passion. I use the word "test" when working with models at a discounted rate. I only charge $50 to the model. She only gets what I feel are the best prints for her book. Usually that would be 3-4 8x12's. The purpose of a test for me is to try new stuff,and to see if I may want to use the model on other shoots. I choose photography as a living, therefore I must do what makes sense to continue to be able to do what I enjoy. I have seen how TFP has gotten way out of control. Now models expect everything from a shoot including hi-res images that are retouched etc. Obviously some photographers have the time and money to give away their work, I on the other hand do not. I live very comfortably, and want to continue to do so, so my "test" shoots work for me. I feel that at the end of my shoots, the model will always leave with more than I do. I feel that the models who contact me for shoots, see something in my style that they want to pay the small $50 fee. If they can not see that difference, than I feel they are probably better served by some one willing to give them an entire disk of images. That person isn't me. Make no mistakes, if I want to work with an outstanding model, I have no qualms with paying her her rate regardless of what it is. If I gave away my time, supplies and images, on other shoots, I would never be able to do this. This program has worked for me since switching from film, which then I charged $100 per test shoot. The last point I want to make, if photographers want to one day do this for a living, you can not be afraid to charge, if you are, you will never make it. You might be as good as the best photographer in town, but if you can not show high rates, you will always be thought of as the lesser guy. I run 11 photography studios, a modeling agency, and own multiple properties, and have a comfortable life style. I obtained this all from photography related work. I am known in my town for my photography, and as such I am able to charge high rates for it. Most models are happy to pay the $50, and it shows me they don't want something for nothing. Jun 09 05 09:15 pm Link Posted by James Graham: Very well put. Jun 09 05 10:47 pm Link I could barely read through all these posts. I think it is just semantics. If a small fee helps you test models, and people pay it. Great. If a $10 fee chases away a potential shoot you want, and you don't really care. Great, too. Do what you think works for you. I think it is what we all so anyhow. Best of luck everyone, Michael Creagh http://michaelcreagh.com Jun 10 05 12:16 am Link I know many MUAH that I have met on independant Test AND Agency Test that all expect a kit fee of about £25 upwards. I personally feel that parties involved in a TFP should do it because they believe that it is of genuine benefit to all. Ensuring then that the issue of compensation of obligatory recompense is removed from minds. Though I do have to add that I find it mildly amusing that a photographer would expect me to spend £60 on a train ticket on a TFP that he has made contact with me about and not think it his responsibilty to cover my fare or even offer up half of the cost. Better get back to that list of London fashion photographers methinks lol Jun 10 05 06:17 pm Link Posted by sibyl: I have to agree with sibyl, I almost never give the raw images out unless i know the model personally, but at least in my case what the model is looking for is the edited shots anyway, and those can be delivered by email or FTP in any case, so my cost are about as close to zero as I'm going to get for any individual shoot. Jun 10 05 06:38 pm Link Posted by James Graham: my sentiments exactly. i love to shoot. if someone's not paying me to shoot, i still want to shoot. if i see or meet a model that i want to shoot, and she thinks my style is something right for her and we're both available with some free time, i'm down for it... especially if its an opportunity to try out some new ideas. Jun 10 05 07:03 pm Link |
