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How would you have handled this???
Hello, I recently received quite an offensive and uncalled for email from a photographer and was curious to see if you all would have handled it differently. Below I've copied and pasted both the photographer's email to me and my response. Please let me know your opinion. Thanks so much, Isi brian boulos New York WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU SO STUCK UP AND HIGH MAINTENANCE YOU'RE NOT EVEN THAT HOT AND YOU'RE TOO SHORT TO MODEL FUCK OFF. 06/06/05 9:42 AM Brian, In regard to your comment: How I present myself and the treatment I expect has no effect on anyone but those that I do work with, which would obviously disclude you. I apologize if you've only worked with compliant models, however in this industry I intend to attract only the most professional of people by applying my own standards to the work I take. Any professional photographer would not only fulfill these standards, yet oblige them as well. The most successful models are not just objects posing for a camera, but business women with class and integrity. By stating my expectations from the beginning I am able to deter amateurs and save myself from wasted time as well as odious situations. It is unfortunate to me that you do not give models the respect warranted to them. Every model has the right to dictate the circumstances in which he or she will work, and if their policy is not compatible with that of the photographer, then there is no need for them to collaborate in their art forms. As for your own show of egotistical immaturity, please note that you are the exact prototype of the photographer I directed my list of necessities towards as to dissuade futile interaction. I wish you all the best of luck in your career, Isi Jun 06 05 10:12 pm Link Hmmm - was this totally unprovoked? Jun 06 05 10:18 pm Link Isi, I recommend you dont make a practice of giving the guy the time of day. I would have either not responded or just responded with "Thanks for your correspondence. Regards, Isi." Second, while I think Brian clearly had no tact in what he said- do you see any validity to what he is saying from a photographer perspective reading your port? I know you are just trying to be upfront- but I got to imagine alot of photographers may have ran for the woods afer reading your port. It looks like you could really use some different contributions on your port. Maybe can attract more TFP bees with honey. I know you didnt ask for this second part- just thought it may help. If I hasn't- apologies. Regards, -Jose Jun 06 05 10:20 pm Link I can appreciate your honesty and request, however I think you are asking for a little to much for a TFP or TFCD, especially from a professional. Maybe you should set your sites a little lower, because honestly right now you are presenting yourself like a supermodel of some sort...Just giving my honest opinion. Keep up the good work Jun 06 05 10:45 pm Link Thanks for your comments guys, To Jose: I understand what you're saying in regard to my port, however, I am coming from a near 3 year modeling run where I have been taken advantage of by many, many photographers anywhere from not receiving my prints, not receiving the payment agreed upon to actually being drugged, bound by ropes and raped on video tape. I was at the point of quitting modeling all together, however instead I just decided that I would continue, but I was going to do it my own way. It is not in my nature to be untrusting or even demanding, however I learned that being nice translates into nievity and vulnerability to a lot of photographers. Not that they are all like that, it is not my intention to imply that AT ALL. Posting what I did has proven to be an effective way of weeding out a large percentage of the photographers who are full of it and in this industry for all of the wrong reasons. To Brent: Before his email to me I had never even seen his profile. Jun 06 05 10:50 pm Link I would have sent him a message saying, "Thank you for your comments," just to be obnoxious. That is all and it's more than he deserved. There's no point harassing somebody like that, it's not going to change their minds about anything and it just makes you look stupid. Which he did. However, while his *method* was totally inappropriate, as others have pointed out, somewhere in that blather there was a message which you might do well to consider. If you get bookings with that profile and bio, more power to you, but I got about five lines into it before I said, "I think I see the problem." Your ego's writing checks your body may have a little trouble cashing, to tell you the honest truth. M Jun 06 05 11:01 pm Link Posted by Smitty: Jun 06 05 11:04 pm Link Honestly! ARE YOU ALL SERIOUS?! Isi wrote a profile. Whether you think her words are apt or inflated is entirely beside the point. The point is that this Brian Boulos character has his head up his patootie to write an insulting email to a complete stranger. How on God's Earth can you all try to turn the blame back onto Isi for Brian's boorish behavior? It's the same stupid spiel as saying, hey, rape victims mighta been asking for it. Has the world gone mad? Did the Almighty take the politeness bone out of the photographers before She placed us all on this planet? Yeesh. Isi: The next time you get one of these emails, ignore it. If you REALLY must answer it, tell the writer he (it will never be a she) has his head stuck deep up his patootie. And leave it at that. Sanders McNew www.mcnew.net Jun 06 05 11:13 pm Link Speaking of heads and patooties, here's what he has to say for himself: "Even if I become the biggest professional in the world I never want to act 'professional'. That's lame. This is art." It all seems less surprising now. Jun 06 05 11:19 pm Link With preferences out of the way and such ( I mean hell, 5'6" is too short for a model? I never knew that.... guess I better tell my girl she's too short to model for me ). In the end , you responded professionally , by not stooping to his level and do the mudslinging back. I mean its business not personal, if you are not what he was looking for then he should had just said so, far as being high maintanance not quite sure I understand why that came into the picture but every model has their personality, they're there for the shoot, not nessarily to sit and have a cup of coffee with you and get to know you ( tho I wouldnt mind that, but besides the point ). I do not know anything about the circumstances that lead upto his email, but assumeing you did not provoke it, your response compared to his was professional and calm, but I feel that if something like that comes along its best to ignore it, not even dignify the comment with a response if he's being an asshole. Oh and also I dont want to be rude but typically its not in the best interest of the business to be posting mudslinging on the web and such, doing the he said, she said thing. I mean if we had a bad experience with a client at takecharge production, its not anyone else's business but our own, in that I feel is the professional approach. This may have been tad more professional, while at the same time seeking help if you had not used his real name in the paste. Jun 06 05 11:38 pm Link I noticed no one else here is a model replying just us photographers :p. Jun 06 05 11:45 pm Link Say what - I hope someone is in jail right now.... Posted by Isi: Jun 07 05 12:05 am Link You should have just ignored it. It was not worth your time to even answer. In the future e-mails like that should just hit the trash and don't sweat it. Jun 07 05 12:10 am Link I know that I would have felt the need to get those insulting words off my chest. I have a problem with people who choose to voice their hurtful opinions to strangers. So I say that you did the right thing and you handled yourself very professionally and with maturity. Jun 07 05 12:24 am Link I guess I agree with where the majority seems to be as far as just ignoring this motherfucker. Of course I've read model's ports and thought, "hmm not for me" based on what they wrote, expect, and have opinions about. But frankly I prefer to get as much info upfront for what is expected. Too many times I've said AFTER a shoot things "well I'll email you pics, you'll get a CD of edited images in a month's time." etc only to get back a big, "well you didn't tell me that..." etc. So yes, be as precise as you can about what you'll shoot, what you want in return, etc. And as far as being proud of yourself and what you've done, and taking yourself seriously, hell yes. Too many wanna be models here have no idea about anything. I'm a little biased about this people. I've shot Isi four times now. I guarantee you all, she is fun and creative, and smart and charming. She can pose with grace and strength, and purpose. She is a quality model, your portfolios will be better with shots of her in it. Jun 07 05 12:26 am Link Ignoring it would probably be the best course, but I think you handled it fine. I looked over your info and do agree that it's a little high-fallutin'. The lengthy 3rd person dace bio is a little pretentious and unnecessary. The TFP requirements are a little more excessive than a lot of photographers will go for, but you're well within your rights to request them. I'm not sure if there's any way you can soften your wording to be more inviting, but you may not really feel that's needed anyway. This does not justify his comments, but it doesn't hurt to try to appreciate how you might be coming across. Jun 07 05 12:37 am Link Everyone has different expectations as models and photographers. Behaving with a mature professionalism means being blunt with your expectations and respecting the expectations of others. I read your profile. Personally, as a photographer I would not be able to meet your expectations. I shoot longer than 2 hours and I usually take longer than a week to get images to people. But, just because my style doesn't fit your expectations would be no justification to insult you. I think I learned that in kindergarten. Some people never learn. Personally, I think you should have ignored the photographer who insulted you. But your reply was very mature, classy, dignified and impressive. I commend you for your professionalism. Jun 07 05 12:37 am Link That's what I was thinking... and wanted to read the rest of the posts before commenting. Obviously, if there is even the proof of the rapist on video, they way how she describes it... this guy should be doing time. Posted by Brent Burzycki: Posted by Isi: Jun 07 05 12:42 am Link Posted by Udo R Photography: Posted by Brent Burzycki: Posted by Isi: Say what - I hope someone is in jail right now.... Obviously, if there is even the proof of the rapist on video, they way how she describes it... this guy should be doing time. Ha. Doing time? Jun 07 05 12:48 am Link Posted by Eric Muss-Barnes: Posted by Udo R Photography: Posted by Brent Burzycki: Posted by Isi: Say what - I hope someone is in jail right now.... Obviously, if there is even the proof of the rapist on video, they way how she describes it... this guy should be doing time. Ha. Doing time? hehe why freeway? Gravel Pit, 20MPH. Jun 07 05 12:58 am Link While I can only hope that there is some way to expose people with this type of lack of respect for others, and to gain access to any evidence to any crime which may have been committed, I offer my admiration to Isi for being brave enough to come forward. I hope people such as the ones described in this posting cease to work in this industry. Jun 07 05 12:58 am Link I'm a tiny bit confused, didnt this thread start out as one model complaining about an offensive email she received and was wondering about how other models would have replied? Yet it turned into a thread consoling the model, who speaks of a past of being raped ( to which best of my understanding, is unrelated to the photographer that emailed her ). Just trying to figure out if the two are related, or if the thread was purposly put off track. Jun 07 05 01:23 am Link hahahahahahahahahaha. WOW. Jun 07 05 01:51 am Link Karl, Below is my reasoning behind being so forceful and demanding with my expectations of shooting and why I have no problem coming across as harshly as I do. I'm not looking for consolence. The way this relates directly to the photographer who emailed me, simple: He felt I was being "high maintanence", and a similiar general feeling was expressed by photogrpahers replying to this thread, when in reality I am being protective of myself. It can be a very dangerous thing for a model to come across as inviting and the quote below is exactly why. To Jose: I understand what you're saying in regard to my port, however, I am coming from a near 3 year modeling run where I have been taken advantage of by many, many photographers anywhere from not receiving my prints, not receiving the payment agreed upon to actually being drugged, bound by ropes and raped on video tape. I was at the point of quitting modeling all together, however instead I just decided that I would continue, but I was going to do it my own way. It is not in my nature to be untrusting or even demanding, however I learned that being nice translates into nievity and vulnerability to a lot of photographers. Not that they are all like that, it is not my intention to imply that AT ALL. Posting what I did has proven to be an effective way of weeding out a large percentage of the photographers who are full of it and in this industry for all of the wrong reasons. Jun 07 05 01:56 am Link thanks for the clarification, I must have gotten lost somewhere in the thread. Jun 07 05 02:00 am Link Posted by Isi: One of my favorite sayings is, "A liberal is a conservative who has never been mugged." Jun 07 05 02:04 am Link Dear Isi; I agree with Theda in every point. I've read your profile as well and must say it came over like a high flyer wannabe. Credits are great, but your demands on a free shoot, what the photographer has to deliever and it's attachement as for the credits that "speak for itself" gives the impression that you think that your "poop doesn't make a noise (or smells or whatever)" The amount of work you are DEMANDING, including what you in actuality have to offer is in no way an incentive for me even giving a discount on my package for models not to mention doing even a shoot with you for free (except for a project I am working on). If I would shoot you, you'll get one 8x10 (8 1/2 x 11) plus a CD with the best shots formatted for internet. Other photos can be ordered. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES will I hand out an unedited photo CD right after the shoot. I mean... c'mon... you look nice, but you are not one of the celebrity supermodels where I totally would go out of my way to accomodate them because it's going to help my portfolio. Regardless, you have the right to demand whatever you want and I wish you luck. I don't know this guy who send you this absolutely out of line comment... no defense of his email in any form. I am just thinking what could have triggered such a reaction. He is in NYC, he is maybe in similar situations like I am: I photograph celebrities from time to time (by invitation, not as a papparrazzi), (I even HAD to decline a personal invitation from a well known singer last Friday because of a different event that was organized for me)... and none of these people, whose names actually have a pull have demands on photoshoots like you do... NONE. I don't know this Brian, I may have met him in the fashion circuit... but he may be even more involved in celebrity portraiture than I am, was in a bad mood and reads what you had to say and he just may have let you have it. I also don't know if you and him had an exchange of emails prior to his inflammatory email to you... because it makes me wonder why a NY photographer would spew to the other side of this continent just because he has read your profile. Again... I am rambling... sorry about that, as Theda said, you may want to soften your language and become more friendly in what you want and what you offer, you may get more people. BTW, I don't think that a photographer becomes "professional" by accepting your terms and conditions. I actually think that a professional, full time and accomplished photographer may have rarely the time to accept your terms. I would almost go sofar that someone who follows your demands is rather someone who is starting out and will do anything to get a pretty girl to pose for him/her, exceptions are of course not a contradition for what I just wrote. However, if your profile is correct and you are in fact an accomplished ballerina THEN I may work on a project with you, where you are part of an exhibition with people of the arts that I am working on... (including painters, broadway and hollywood actors and writers), but even then... the shoot would go after MY terms that are very fair. Nuff' said... hope didn't type anything I'd regret... LOL... too late right now... All the best to you Isi Udo Jun 07 05 02:04 am Link Posted by Eric Muss-Barnes: Posted by Udo R Photography: Posted by Brent Burzycki: Posted by Isi: Say what - I hope someone is in jail right now.... Obviously, if there is even the proof of the rapist on video, they way how she describes it... this guy should be doing time. Ha. Doing time? Hahahaa... well... we can say that he should be doing time... I didn't specify if it's "life" or "45 minutes" Jun 07 05 02:06 am Link Udo, I appreciate that we all have our own restrictions on how we go about our work, just as I would respect the fact that you would only give out one print of an image from a shoot, I expect the same. As I said before, I have weeded out many creeps by setting these standards and have gotten to work with people on a much larger scale of professionalism. I never once said that abiding by my regulations would make a person a professional. As for the comment regarding "enough self promotion", it was a sarcastic statement illuding to the length of my dance biography. I find it all so ridiculous this silent war models and photographers have. As if it is a such privelage for one (model or photographer) to work with the other. In some cases this is not necessarily far fetched, however to presume that before any solid correspondence is quite the ego-trip, on both sides. We all make our own rules and we all have to work together on some level. Both models and photographers need some serious attitude humbling, the majority of them at least. Oh, and as I stated previously, I had no contact with this photographer before his email to me, the same I posted at the beginning of this thread. Jun 07 05 03:48 am Link Hi Isi; As I said, that guys comment was uncalled for... if he wants to voice his disapproval of your conditions... that is one thing and I don't see a problem with that... However, insulting you like he did, without even prior correspondence... it's just outrageous. [EDIT: I mean without you giving him reason to insult you in a prior correspondence!] Anyway... good luck to your career! Greetings from the East Udo P.S.: I meant one print as part of the standard package and other pictures can be ordered and have to be paid for extra. If a person wants to have 20 8x10's I'll discount as well... Jun 07 05 03:56 am Link Posted by Sanders McNew: I don't think anyone is blaming her for his being an asshole or excusing his being an asshole. All but one of the posters prior to your post directly acknowledged the uncalled for nature of his email in one way or another. Commenting additionally on the demands that his email was responding to isn't blaming her or forgiving him. Jun 07 05 05:48 am Link Hi Isi; The comments he laid down wasn't worth the reply back that you sent him. I've read your portfolio prior to this post and have gone through reading your responses in this message thread and I now have a better understanding of why your profile is worded in such fashion. Before I was hesitant about asking you to do a shoot because your profile does seem quite demanding. I guess from those of us photographers that try to make and perform our work to a professional level in not only the photograph but in attitude, it's hard to imageine what you have gone through. Not only as a photographer but as a human being. It's unfortunate that there are alot of bad apples that we come across in life but don't forget, just because someone may work for a large firm/agency and has big $$$ behind him, doesn't make him any more professional then a college kid with a point and shoot camera. It's all about the person and their attitude. Don't let the $$$/Fame and glamour ruin you love for the work you want to do. with that said, I would be more then happy to see you photographed through my lens, when ever you may have the time. rick http://rdphotog.smugmug.com Jun 07 05 06:16 am Link Posted by Isi: Isi, Jun 07 05 06:19 am Link Posted by Eric Muss-Barnes: Posted by Isi: One of my favorite sayings is, "A liberal is a conservative who has never been mugged." Yes, it's always been a favorite, but misleading and inaccurate obfuscation by those on the right. It's sickening garbage is what it is to be plain about it. There are already laws against whatever things you're probably thinking about. See above, it's a lie. The only part of her list that will have any bearing on her safety is the requirement to have make up and stylists on the shoot. What on earth do any of the rest of her requirements have to do with her safety? She also seems to think that working with professionals will make her more safe, and there might be something to that in terms of odds, but like Udo said, her terms pretty much insure that no true professional would have anything to do with her. Jun 07 05 06:29 am Link Just delete and KIM (Keep It Moving) Jun 07 05 06:39 am Link Isi, First off, this character is way out of line. Second, don't listen to him you are "that hot"! However, while I can empathize with your previous bad/scary experiences, your profile would indeed dissuade me from contacting you. As a film shooter, there is no way I could possibly meet your turn around time requirements for proof sheets, retouched 8x10's and all images on a CD. I usually promise models everything within 3-weeks and try to get it done in 2 weeks. Regards, MDS Jun 07 05 07:50 am Link ha yep it's professional to POST that. isi sweetie, brian loves your lengthy little harvard arguments, i can picture you saying it in your snobby fake english accent. i am obviously peasant folk, quit wasting your time princess. woowoo! Jun 07 05 08:35 am Link Posted by brian boulos: Yo, Brian. Moderator theda says: flaming and abusive messages are not tolerated. Cease and desist. Jun 07 05 09:10 am Link Posted by Aaron_H: Posted by Eric Muss-Barnes: Posted by Isi: One of my favorite sayings is, "A liberal is a conservative who has never been mugged." Yes, it's always been a favorite, but misleading and inaccurate obfuscation by those on the right. It's sickening garbage is what it is to be plain about it. A much quicker and more effective rebuttal is "... and a conservative is a liberal who's never been arrested." A libertarian is someone who doesn't care for being mugged *or* arrested, since they know they're pretty much the same thing. Jun 07 05 10:58 am Link Isi, From reading the posts I may be in the minority, and then again I am still only semi-pro since I make my living out of something else and only supplement my income with photography... but I am not deterred or put-off by your portfolio and if I lived closer to you I would have already contacted you for some collaboration. You are straight-up about your conditions and it's a lot easier to deal with someone who states their expectations clearly than trying to figure out someone who is being "polite" and unclear about what they expect/want from a photographer to avoid wasting time. Just my .02 Jun 09 05 02:15 am Link |
