butifull wrote:
thats cool. im 14 years old and im 5'9 and my name is jasmin. i wanna be a model

Bye.

pamela mars wrote:

This is not a critique thread.
Let alone,
Let's critque the 14 year old who slipped through.

Enough on her.

okay,

M.hana moderator.

Mary wrote:
5'9...great skin, tall and thin and not a line on their faces...

and yes runway..... great ages are 14 to 20

Yeah, 14 is career starter, 17 is prime, 21 is retirement and 23 is comeback age for high-end fashion apparel careers... or a pretty late celebrity retirement from fashion at 25.

Skin is huge.

There are some older fashion models, but they're likely celebrity division or guests of the designer.

Dave the design student wrote:

Yeah, 14 is career starter, 17 is prime, 21 is retirement and 23 is comeback age for high-end fashion apparel careers... or a pretty late celebrity retirement from fashion at 25.

Skin is huge.

There are some older fashion models, but they're likely celebrity division or guests of the designer.

For the editorial rat race,

I would add the number in for those who are not at the top of the top.
Those who make a good living and have a good life.

And those who also have a good life who are sometimes looked down on in the higher levels.
The catalog queens.

The have a nice life and make good cash.  often in their twenties even thirties.

Sabrina Maree wrote:
Well I'm talking about that specific bar case. So how does your question apply? If someone under 21 is in a bar that's grounds to get shut down period (unless you have a license to work all all this other jazz... and even then you need to be 18 plus and each person escorted by a guard, and breaks must be taken in a "liquor free" zone).

Not to mention, an underage model walking around topless (I don't know where you got "sheer material") in an establishment that was CERTAINLY not licensed for such purposes. Models under 18 may wear sheer material in certain circumstances, but it's not a "right" (in fact, if someone wore it in any public situation they would be arrested regardless of the age).

Maybe I'm missing your question...because this seems idiotically obvious to me.

Not obvious at all to me.  Could you cite any laws for our enlightenment please?

And nobody said that the bar did not have guards.  Or etc.

I am sorry, unless it is expressedly forbidden, then it is a right to expression.  And wearing sheer in public is not illegal.  If you think so, please cite the law that expressedly said so.

Jack Fleming Phtgrphy wrote:
So,  you are all sitting around arguing if a model is too young to be in a fashion show and if she's under 18, she's jail bait. As a male, I started working physical labor at the age of 14 for a friend's Dad. He paid me under the table and the money was good. Point is, I was 14 and it wasn't about what I looked like or who I was dating. it was about the "work" I was responsible for doing.

LAST TIME I CHECKED AT A FASHION SHOW (and I shoot Mercedes Benz Fashion Week in Los Angeles), I wasn't there to get a date with a runway model. I was there to photograph the dress (or outfit or accessories) the model was wearing. It's NOT about the model. It's about what the designer has designed in their collection and is trying to display on the moving model.

Are we here to pick up on models or are we  here to do business and remain professional and photograph fashion (or whatever genre you work with)?

These kinds of debates (or many of the responses in them) are why I hate this sight and many of the unprofessionals on here.

Get back to what you are supposed to be doing if you are going to be professional. And if you can't handle it? Leave.

Now, can we get back to discussing the quality of photography, fashion, glamour, and the other relevant things this site should be about?

Hey - WHere were you when 15 year old Stephanie Seymour was "dating" John Casablancas - or for that matter all those aging rock stars and their young hauties
If this sort of discussion is to much for you  - well you do have options

M.hana wrote:
The have a nice life and make good cash.  often in their twenties even thirties.

very true.

ESCALANTE wrote:
Aren't they suppose to be 16 or older to be on MM?
And I think you stated
you found a 14 yr old on here?

E

Sorry just read the first post, haven't entered the drama on the thread.

She went by the name Alicia15 , I liked her look for our Fashion Week so I began communicating with her parent . Dad and girl came to our audition along with about 100  other hopefuls . We cast her ...............Accompanied by her mom  she appeared in many of our VFW shows and did very well . I predict a great future for her

Soon after she joined - Alicia15's mom withdrew her from MM for reasons I wont go into here ...

I expect though that we will be casting her in our Fall VFW shows ....

lll wrote:
Not obvious at all to me.  Could you cite any laws for our enlightenment please?

And nobody said that the bar did not have guards.  Or etc.

I am sorry, unless it is expressedly forbidden, then it is a right to expression.  And wearing sheer in public is not illegal.  If you think so, please cite the law that expressedly said so.

what is your point here darling?  are you actually for the use of 15 and 16 year old topless models in a bar?  because if that's not what you're fighting for why are you still arguing?    14, 15, 16 topless in a bar is innapropriate if not illegal and i'm a little creeped out that you're taking such a stand on this being ok or legal or whatever you're aiming for.

-JJ

lll wrote:

Not obvious at all to me.  Could you cite any laws for our enlightenment please?

And nobody said that the bar did not have guards.  Or etc.

I am sorry, unless it is expressedly forbidden, then it is a right to expression.  And wearing sheer in public is not illegal.  If you think so, please cite the law that expressedly said so.

All bars have guards. For someone under 21 to be there working, the police must be notified, a guard must be assigned to every person working, and there must be an alcohol free break room. It's not about guards being present. It's about a guard being present for EVERY underage person. But if the person was under 18, all that doesn't apply.

The person mentioned these girls were underage and TOPLESS. Do I have to explain to you how it is illegal in the United States for a minor to be topless without a parent present and a good reason? You can't even go to a male doctor without a parent in the room. And if ONE picture was taken at that time (as is common in bars) it's child pornography?

You need to read up on obscenity and child exploitation or you could find yourself in loads of trouble. Encouraging minors to walk around topless in a bar is not even remotely legal.
The US department of Justice website on the topic:
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/ceos/
"Federal prosecutors enforce the laws that make it a crime to possess, receive, distribute or produce child pornography in a way that affects interstate or foreign commerce. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 2251, 2252, 2252A. "
-- I'm sure this would be construed as a production of a live type of child pornography

Sabrina Maree wrote:
SOME. Some are. Most aren't. Thrusting a child into an adult world is not something to take easily. Unless you don't care about the child in the first place. And since in this industry it's rare to have anyone doing anything but furthering their own cause, the model MUST be aware of this and it's a hard thing to grasp at that age. Not to mention, no matter how mature you may be, biologically your brain is nowhere NEAR fully developed, specifically the areas related to reasoning. No, neurologically speaking, a child simply cannot reason the way an adult can. And not by any fault of their own!

Of course there are very intelligent children and very stupid adults... there are also very good 5'6 runway models. The exceptions are not important.

This sounds suspiciously like the people who mention health problems when they're talking trash about fat people. If you don't like 14 year olds, that's fine, just say so, don't appeal to neurological science.

Nobody's thrusting 14 year old models into an adult world that they don't want to be a part of already. Hell, if they're talking about walking fashion week, they're probably already signed and working. They probably started dreaming of being a model when they were 5, and they couldn't be happier.

Please stop projecting, seriously.

Ainee A wrote:
I agree. You can be plenty smart, mature, and logical at age 16 but that doesn't change the fact that you are innately age 16 and subject to the whims of the hormonal rollar coasters that defines your age.

I just read about that girl named Morgan Featherton(is that her name?) mentioned in the article posted earlier. Can you imagine an 8 year old on the cover of Vogue? Eep. But of course, Vogue covers are decorated with actresses nowadays. >

Sabrina Maree wrote:
The parents are not always present. They have jobs, relationships, and lives of their own. It would be basically impossible for a parent to accompany a budding young runway model on all her pursuits.

I just don't see the necessity. There are thousands of appropriate models over 16, it's not like there is a shortage of girls tall or thin enough. Why even bother with the *possible* problem? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm sure none of them are SO unique there isn't a model over 16 that could replace them.

Its actually illegal in most states (Calif for sure) to have a minor on the set without a gaurdian or set teacher on set with the minor at all times....after 4 hours (i may have the time a bit off)  a parent won't do, it has to be a set teacher for a teenager....real young kids have a shorter limit without a teacher on set.

Sabrina Maree wrote:
All bars have guards. For someone under 21 to be there working, the police must be notified, a guard must be assigned to every person working, and there must be an alcohol free break room. It's not about guards being present. It's about a guard being present for EVERY underage person. But if the person was under 18, all that doesn't apply.

The person mentioned these girls were underage and TOPLESS. Do I have to explain to you how it is illegal in the United States for a minor to be topless without a parent present and a good reason? You can't even go to a male doctor without a parent in the room. And if ONE picture was taken at that time (as is common in bars) it's child pornography?

You need to read up on obscenity and child exploitation or you could find yourself in loads of trouble. Encouraging minors to walk around topless in a bar is not even remotely legal.
The US department of Justice website on the topic:
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/ceos/
"Federal prosecutors enforce the laws that make it a crime to possess, receive, distribute or produce child pornography in a way that affects interstate or foreign commerce. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 2251, 2252, 2252A. "
-- I'm sure this would be construed as a production of a live type of child pornography

Sabrina, nudity is not always pornography. A fashion show is not "live child pornography." Someone walking around topless is neither in possession, receiving, distributing or producing pornography.

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:

Sabrina, nudity is not always pornography. A fashion show is not "live child pornography." Someone walking around topless is neither in possession, receiving, distributing or producing pornography.

Then what would you describe a minor walking around topless in a public establishment, where they should not legally be? All in good fun?

Sabrina Maree wrote:
All bars have guards. For someone under 21 to be there working, the police must be notified, a guard must be assigned to every person working, and there must be an alcohol free break room. It's not about guards being present. It's about a guard being present for EVERY underage person. But if the person was under 18, all that doesn't apply.

The person mentioned these girls were underage and TOPLESS. Do I have to explain to you how it is illegal in the United States for a minor to be topless without a parent present and a good reason? You can't even go to a male doctor without a parent in the room. And if ONE picture was taken at that time (as is common in bars) it's child pornography?

You need to read up on obscenity and child exploitation or you could find yourself in loads of trouble. Encouraging minors to walk around topless in a bar is not even remotely legal.
The US department of Justice website on the topic:
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/ceos/
"Federal prosecutors enforce the laws that make it a crime to possess, receive, distribute or produce child pornography in a way that affects interstate or foreign commerce. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 2251, 2252, 2252A. "
-- I'm sure this would be construed as a production of a live type of child pornography

I cant imagine a legit bar risking losing a license for having minors in the bar...  I did a fashion show a few weeks ago at a night club and I had to fight like hell to get my assistant in (she was one week shy of her 21st birthday)  I had to go to the top of the food chain at this place...the client had to intervene and one of the guards took my assistants drivers license....we were in a back room totally away from where drinks were served....nobody wanted to lose their jobs over a minor (even if she was in the back doing makeup)

In San Diego if you even look like you could be under 35 they HAVE TO CARD YOU!!!!

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:
Sabrina, nudity is not always pornography. A fashion show is not "live child pornography." Someone walking around topless is neither in possession, receiving, distributing or producing pornography.

Sabrina Maree wrote:
Then what would you describe a minor walking around topless in a public establishment, where they should not legally be? All in good fun?

If there's no law against it, it's legal. It's not up to me to prove that it's legal - if you say it's illegal, show me the law. Don't just spout stuff like that and then try to use child pornography laws to somehow back up your claims. That doesn't work.

Mary wrote:

I cant imagine a legit bar risking losing a license for having minors in the bar...  I did a fashion show a few weeks ago at a night club and I had to fight like hell to get my assistant in (she was one week shy of her 21st birthday)  I had to go to the top of the food chain at this place...the client had to intervene and one of the guards took my assistants drivers license....we were in a back room totally away from where drinks were served....nobody wanted to lose their jobs over a minor (even if she was in the back doing makeup)

In San Diego if you even look like you could be under 35 they HAVE TO CARD YOU!!!!

California is crazy about carding. Most other states aren't as serious.
But I went to many a bar before 21, and I never had a fake ID.

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:
Sabrina, nudity is not always pornography. A fashion show is not "live child pornography." Someone walking around topless is neither in possession, receiving, distributing or producing pornography.

If there's no law against it, it's legal. It's not up to me to prove that it's legal - if you say it's illegal, show me the law. Don't just spout stuff like that and then try to use child pornography laws to somehow back up your claims. That doesn't work.

I guess we then need to decide WHAT it is. I believe any jury would decide this is child pornography (this is the United States). Or maybe more along the lines of stripping, except not even in the right establishment.
What do you think it is? Before you decide there is no law on it, you must decide what it is.
A simple case of public nudity of a minor? Because I think the Girls Gone Wild guy got in BIG trouble for that, and he didn't even know they were underage.

Garry k wrote:
We hired a couple for our Vancouver Fashion Week a few weeks ago ( including one i found here )

One you found here?
How'd her profile slip by?

Sasha Rossi wrote:
To all of you about the underage nudity debate going on here-

I don't know if you've heard of a sushi bar chain called RA, but it's pretty popular where i'm from, and i had a good friend of mine work for them at the age of 16 (i actually think they hired her at 15)

They had her walk around a PUBLIC BEACH topless, with stickers for their restaurant covering her nipples, and wearing a thong, all while passing out flyers for the opening of their restaurant.

Homegirl was 16!!!

That has to be illegal, or something.....

But honestly, stuff like this is really common at least where i'm from (So. Cal.), and very few people have been taken to court or anything for it.

(just so you know, if i'm not making any sense or spell crap wrong, it's cinco de freakin mayo and i'm having some tecate, so that explains it haha)

Well, if her nipples were covered and she was in a thong... it's legal.

Sabrina Maree wrote:

Well, if her nipples were covered and she was in a thong... it's legal.

but STICKERS. i mean, seriously....

Garry k wrote:

This is a common occurrance ..Underage models wanting to both drink and party afterwards ..Having parents there helps with whisking them away once the show is done

As it should be- I was in a movie that had a bar located afterparty I wasn't able to attend... the release party and debut was awewsome and availalbe to me, so no biggie.
Before we get closer to a drinking age debate- I have no problem with a older kid having a glass of wine with their parents but heavy drinking (binging) and the drugs often implied by the fashion world are no conditions for anyone, much less a minor.
But I digress...
The point this started with wasn't a minor being put in a compromising position... it was an unprofessional person who happened to be there. Models are obviously not there to be picked up (or at least not supposed to be) and if someone doesn't understand that- they are the ones that are out of place.
By making sure that there are the fewest amount of obstacles to their hooking up/hitting on event participants (like banning minors) you just tell them that it IS a permissable hunting ground.

Garry k wrote:
We hired a couple for our Vancouver Fashion Week a few weeks ago ( including one i found here )

All done up (hair and makeup ) they looked very much like young adult women - course they both stood 5'10 plus

So it was funny after one of our Shows to watch some of the Independent Photogs trying to chat up one of the girls

Afterwards I dropped the bombshell to them  ... "She's only 14 "

( response ) Silence

"And thats her mom over there checking you out "

Hahaha that's great, When I started traveling for modeling I loved being able to simply say "Sorry, I'm only 16."  Sent people running in the other direction

xaveir wrote:
I shot a fashion event in California a girl walked out on the runway crowd was in Ah.  Beautiful, amazing, great walk , took the attention of all photogs,and all media.  In the middle of the show she was wearing a V neck long silk type of gown outfit. She did a small turn and out comes the kids.  (boobs).  Five of the photogs I was standing with said did you get that .I said let me check." Dam Blurry.{ At the end I am glad it was blurry.}  read on.  Any who the story goes like this.  Met a bunch of friends at a night club.  Photographers Vips etc....   Hey How did the show go.  I said good got some pictures and showed them a beautiful girl  that the crowd oohd and Ahhd over. Plain enough I saw a girl sitting alone that looked like a girl that was on the runway.  I  approached talked with her breifly.  I said I would love to shoot you.  I have some great photos of the Fashion Show. Showed her and she said can you e-mail me the pictures.  I said yeah sure do you have a business card she said hold on let me go ask my MOM!  I dropped my jaw and said to friends she must still live at home.  She walked back to me after grabbing a business card from her mom-handed it to me and said thanks. I said I dont mean to be rude but how old are you .  Fourteen she said (14) I looked down at the camera and said wow! You dont look fourteen.  She said I know and walked off smiling back to her mom.  Is she to young.  Yes .  Will I shoot her again.  Maybe.  Is she too young.  Obviously not for modeling.  Some one beleived in her look.  She rocked it. Mature yes.  Fashion Model Yes.  To young no.  Support from her Mom was there.  Girls in Milan are said to grace the runway from age 12 to 16.  If they got it they got it.  Once you hit 21 if your not established your career is pretty much a wash.  So I say with Family Support, and a lot of parental or gaurdian supervision .... Walk the runnway.  Grace pages of magazines and model before its to late.  Enjoy.

1) while it may be the photogs duty to capture everything that happens on the runway - I would suggest that morally and legally it is also his duty to erase any 14 yr old wardrobe malfunctions afterwards - when it is realized that the model is a minor

2 ) what was that 14 year old ( in your story ) doing in the bar after the show anyways ?

Sabrina Maree wrote:

Well, if her nipples were covered and she was in a thong... it's legal.

That does'nt make it right ....

PYPI wrote:

There is a difference. A 14 year actor is likely to be hired to portray a young teen, not a adult in evening gowns.

Since 14 year olds go to proms and wear evening gowns I'm ok with it. Lingerie would be a different story.

Ivy Bressler wrote:

Since 14 year olds go to proms and wear evening gowns I'm ok with it. Lingerie would be a different story.

Not at my HS they didn't. Junior prom, you had to be a junior and your date had to be at least a sophomore, while senior prom, you had to be a senior and your date had to be at least a  junior... So nope, no 14-year-olds were ever at any prom I ever went to.

MYS Britt wrote:
I flat do not agree with it

then again, I think 16 is too young
18 is young enough to start a job like that IMHO

sorry!

My sister who is (19 yrs old) now  (5'11) has been doing fashion runway ever since she was 13, being that she was 5"9 then! I personally think it is the parents decision, and she would be NOWHERE close to the experienced model she is without those years of hard work. I have YET to find another model who can walk like her..

Madcrow Photographics wrote:
Not at my HS they didn't. Junior prom, you had to be a junior and your date had to be at least a sophomore, while senior prom, you had to be a senior and your date had to be at least a  junior... So nope, no 14-year-olds were ever at any prom I ever went to.

We had one prom. Juniors organized and "gave" the prom as a gift to the seniors. As long as you paid your dues, you could bring anyone you wanted, provided they were 7th grade or above and the approproate gender.

*edit* and then there's quincenetas (requiring formal dresses), formal weddings where you get stuck as the youngest bridesmaid or some other part of the wedding party. Point is, its not like you need a drivers license to wear a gown.

Colin R wrote:
while I can see the fuss I can't help thinking....child actors?

Yep, always have been, always will be.  So what is the big difference?  None!

Madcrow Photographics wrote:

Not at my HS they didn't. Junior prom, you had to be a junior and your date had to be at least a sophomore, while senior prom, you had to be a senior and your date had to be at least a  junior... So nope, no 14-year-olds were ever at any prom I ever went to.

That was then, this is now

Ivy Bressler wrote:
We had one prom. Juniors organized and "gave" the prom as a gift to the seniors. As long as you paid your dues, you could bring anyone you wanted, provided they were 7th grade or above and the approproate gender.

Gender restrictions were the one thing we DIDN'T have (though most of the gay/lesbian students skipped normal prom and went to the regional "gay prom")

DJantz wrote:
That was then, this is now

Can't believe it's changed THAT much in the last five years... The last I heard (from my little brothers who gradualted after me, obviously) they were even thinking of not allowing ANY students not a part of the class having the prom, in fact...

Still, I DON'T think that 14 year old really ought to be in adult runway shows on any sort of regular basis...

Holden wrote:
Age is not a barrier to molestation/sexual abuse/rape.

14 year old tennis players, nerdy science geeks, high school newspaper journalists, etc. are victims too.

Rape is not about sex, it's about violence.

Being a runway model does not make a young woman more likely to be abused.

Being 14 instead of 23 does not make a young woman more likely to be abused.

End.

Spot on. Its about violence and dominance, nothing to do with sex.

Madcrow Photographics wrote:

Ivy Bressler wrote:
We had one prom. Juniors organized and "gave" the prom as a gift to the seniors. As long as you paid your dues, you could bring anyone you wanted, provided they were 7th grade or above and the approproate gender.

Gender restrictions were the one thing we DIDN'T have (though most of the gay/lesbian students skipped normal prom and went to the regional "gay prom")

Can't believe it's changed THAT much in the last five years... The last I heard (from my little brothers who gradualted after me, obviously) they were even thinking of not allowing ANY students not a part of the class having the prom, in fact...

I don't think my highschool could have a prom without underclassmen. (We enslave them as waiters (We actually have a prom and banquet) and entertainment))

Vector 38 wrote:
show a show once that had a couple of amazing models who were only 14 & 15 at the time; striking looks at 5'9 and 5'11,..., but they weren't old enough to attend the after-party. go figure.

~ fr

It is also possible to fight in a war and be able to drink a beer in your home town.
Just the way things are.