Vorland Photography wrote:
There's a 14 year old in my MM port. I'll let you guess which image. Booked through an agency, and mom was there.

I'm pretty sure it was Teri... do I win anything?

Michael Pandolfo wrote:

Wow that's a lot of "what ifs" and assumptions. Why didn't Jodie Foster turn out like Danny Bonaduce? I mean they both began as child actors.

What if? I don't think I mentioned any what ifs.
14 year old = child's body = designers dream (in your description)
14 year old becomes 18 year old (I think we can all be pretty sure this will happen, we all grow up).
14 year old was praised, paid, and made proud of her 14 year old body. Suddenly 14 year old is 18, and no one wants her? did she get ugly? did she do something wrong? can she accept her whole life changing because of a few extra curves? will she be able to love herself and look back on the last few years with fond memories, and know she is still beautiful?
Some will, no doubt. Some will always be in the middle of the road. Some will never feel attractive again, or pay thousands in therapy to regain confidence. Is a few good outcomes worth the bad ones?

People in the industry have to protect the industry and it's reputation. Since children are a very tender subject with most, why complicate it by not caring about their well-being?

Sabrina Maree wrote:

What if? I don't think I mentioned any what ifs.
14 year old = child's body = designers dream (in your description)
14 year old becomes 18 year old (I think we can all be pretty sure this will happen, we all grow up).
14 year old was praised, paid, and made proud of her 14 year old body. Suddenly 14 year old is 18, and no one wants her? did she get ugly? did she do something wrong? can she accept her whole life changing because of a few extra curves? will she be able to love herself and look back on the last few years with fond memories, and know she is still beautiful?
Some will, no doubt. Some will always be in the middle of the road. Some will never feel attractive again, or pay thousands in therapy to regain confidence. Is a few good outcomes worth the bad ones?

People in the industry have to protect the industry and it's reputation. Since children are a very tender subject with most, why complicate it by not caring about their well-being?

Wow.

Anyway, you don't think this can happen to adults?

Shon D Photography wrote:

Wow.

Anyway, you don't think this can happen to adults?

Of course it can. But adults brains are more full formed than a child's and are not still in the process of creating their identities. Adults are capable of reasoning children aren't, and not as subject to the hormonal abnormalities due to growth. Adults generally have a support group when it comes to stressful life activities that children do not, because children are afraid of getting in "trouble" so they aren't honest with their actions.

Sabrina Maree wrote:
Of course it can. But adults brains are more full formed than a child's and are not still in the process of creating their identities. Adults are capable of reasoning children aren't, and not as subject to the hormonal abnormalities due to growth. Adults generally have a support group when it comes to stressful life activities that children do not, because children are afraid of getting in "trouble" so they aren't honest with their actions.

And raising the age requirement to 18 will stop all these problems? I mean really. 14 year olds aren't as stupid and irrational as you think they are/want them to be.

Shon D Photography wrote:

And raising the age requirement to 18 will stop all these problems? I mean really. 14 year olds aren't as stupid and irrational as you think they are/want them to be.

No, of course not. I wasn't responding to that situation, I was responding to someone's hypothetical one about 14 teen year old girls fitting requirements better.

It's not about being stupid. I posted the brain growth chart... it's just biology. No matter how intelligent or mature you are, you cannot help your hormones or brain development. And designers are aren't going to pick girls based on their maturity, anyway.

And I won't get into the correlations between beauty and brain development. Children who grow up being praised for being attractive are typically much less secure adults because instead of developing hobbies, interests, intelligence and maturity, they relied on their looks. I'd be willing to bet there are more immature 14 year old models than mature ones on that basis alone.

And there WILL be exceptions. There absolutely will be. There will be girls that can model from 12 to 25 and be adjusted, emotionally competent and confident adults. But that will not be a large portion, simply because that would be statistically impossible.

While I do think girls under 16 shouldn't be working without a social worker present in all situations (face it, parents aren't enough sometimes, I've seen enough stage mothers to know that), I don't feel it should be completely banned. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing the need for photographers, models, stylists, make-up artists, chaperones, stage managers, designers, and everyone else inbetween to know what they have a hand in and realize the importance of nurturing young adults, and putting their best interests before your monetary ones. That they are growing people and will have many more years outside of the industry than in it. Modeling isn't inherently destructive; the people in the industry are.

Sabrina Maree wrote:

What if? I don't think I mentioned any what ifs.
14 year old = child's body = designers dream (in your description)
14 year old becomes 18 year old (I think we can all be pretty sure this will happen, we all grow up).
14 year old was praised, paid, and made proud of her 14 year old body. Suddenly 14 year old is 18, and no one wants her? did she get ugly? did she do something wrong? can she accept her whole life changing because of a few extra curves? will she be able to love herself and look back on the last few years with fond memories, and know she is still beautiful?
Some will, no doubt. Some will always be in the middle of the road. Some will never feel attractive again, or pay thousands in therapy to regain confidence. Is a few good outcomes worth the bad ones?

People in the industry have to protect the industry and it's reputation. Since children are a very tender subject with most, why complicate it by not caring about their well-being?

I read and reread and don't recall anywhere in my OP using the phrase "designers dream."

"Just to play devil's advocate to those outraged by a 14 year old model...

Wouldn't it lessen the outrage of "older" models having to fit into a tiny body type. Isn't is more natural for a 14 year old to be that petite runway figure without having to fight the laws of nature?

I know that's a sweeping statement but it seems more likely that a 14 year old would fit the clothing requirements of the designer than a more developed woman.

Edit: Of course after I post this I see all the "spooky models being molested and "unhealthy" environment posts. Let's assume that's unacceptable for a model of any age and that my post was related to, oh I don't know, ACTUAL runway modeling?"

If the area I bolded weren't "what ifs" you wouldn't have to pose them as questions. Those are the exact "what ifs" I was referring to.

I also don't recall saying I don't care about the well-being of a minor. But under your scenario,  a qualified 14 year old should be denied the opportunity because it "might" screw up her self esteem in years to come? What if...she is raised properly by, oh I don't know, parents?

The "What Ifs" can go the other way too. IF she is no longer in demand in the industry at age 18 perhaps she can, let's see, go to college? Hey, now she even has the money to further her education.

Maybe she's even been taught that her self worth isn't based on her looks alone and she values the once-in-a-lifetime experience?

Of course it can go either way and I know it's far more entertaining to talk about the Dana Platos of the world than the Jodie Fosters.

lll wrote:
What's the fuss, really.  I shot an 11-year old two years ago.  She finally turns 13 (lol).  No one believed she was anything but an adult (she looks...19 minimum).

And she's off to Milan next month, again.

where are said pictures?

Colin R wrote:
while I can see the fuss I can't help thinking....child actors?

agreed!!!

Vorland Photography wrote:
There's a 14 year old in my MM port. I'll let you guess which image. Booked through an agency, and mom was there.

Chelsea

Garry k wrote:
I find that interesting given that Australian super Model Gemma Ward started out at 14

Didn't she also have a drug problem while still in her teens?

Vorland Photography wrote:
There's a 14 year old in my MM port. I'll let you guess which image. Booked through an agency, and mom was there.

Yesterday I shot a 14 year old for a hair salon ad, her Mom is a friend of the salon owner and was there helping at the shoot.  One of her preliminary images is in my other portfolio here:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/grant

DHayes Photography wrote:
The girls in the pics look like little kids playing dressup.  What is the advantage of using 13 and 14 year olds to promote adult clothing?

Here is my theory

Some of these 14 year old female models are tall and almost impossibly thin - and with makeup on they look much older . Adult women  identifly with them on some level - however cannot naturally match their leaness ( or their skin complexions ) ..thus creating a form of neurosis these adult women attempt to resolve through excessive shopping , dieting , plastic surgery etc

Garry k wrote:

Here is my theory

Some of these 14 year old female models are tall and almost impossibly thin - and with makeup on they look much older . Adult women  identifly with them on some level - however cannot naturally match their leaness ( or their skin complexions ) ..thus creating a form of neurosis these adult women attempt to resolve through excessive shopping , dieting , plastic surgery etc

Perhaps not but 14 year olds also do not have maturity. You can dress them up, but they are still just kids. Look at how many of the models that started out in their teens have had drug and alcohol problems. They are in an industry that mentally, most were not ready for.

Garry k wrote:
How much maturity does a girl need to pose for a photo or walk the runway if her parent is around ?

Plenty of times parents are not around. A lot of these young models live in model apartments where they are watch by a guardian from the agency.

Jane Burgess wrote:
Perhaps not but 14 year olds also do not have maturity. You can dress them up, but they are still just kids. Look at how many of the models that started out in their teens have had drug and alcohol problems. They are in an industry that mentally, most were not ready for.

ummm this doesnt mean anything since 14 year old kids in general are doing drugs and having sex more often than they have been... way to enhance the lame ass stereotypes of young models in the industry... whoop whoop

Sabrina Maree wrote:
What if? I don't think I mentioned any what ifs.
14 year old = child's body = designers dream (in your description)
14 year old becomes 18 year old (I think we can all be pretty sure this will happen, we all grow up).

Yes - and I hear Lagerfeld keeps a couple on ice to slow the aging process...
I'm guessing Natasha is 14 for Vorland's book.

15 years old, 6' tall, perfect skin, size 2, a little bony - perfection.

Jane Burgess wrote:
A lot of these young models live in model apartments where they are watch by a guardian from the agency.

Misses Garret?

plus, androgynous, glamour and ethnic - her agency had it all

Jane Burgess wrote:

Plenty of times parents are not around. A lot of these young models live in model apartments where they are watch by a guardian from the agency.

Hmmm , sometimes thats like the fox guarding the chicken coop .. No parent should agree to that

J O N A T H A N wrote:

ummm this doesnt mean anything since 14 year old kids in general are doing drugs and having sex more often than they have been... way to enhance the lame ass stereotypes of young models in the industry... whoop whoop

Where did I ever say that all young models were on drugs and having sex? I like how you just pulled that out of your ass. Plus no one says whoop whoop anymore. Get with the times.

Garry k wrote:

Hmmm , sometimes thats like the fox guarding the chicken coop .. No parent should agree to that

I have to agree, but many parents do agree to it.

Jane Burgess wrote:

Perhaps not but 14 year olds also do not have maturity. You can dress them up, but they are still just kids. Look at how many of the models that started out in their teens have had drug and alcohol problems. They are in an industry that mentally, most were not ready for.

Same can be said of what goes on around college campuses and high schools.  Who DOESN'T have a vice to deal with youth these days lol.

Cassandra_T wrote:
14 is WAYYY too young.
It's bad enough there are 16 year olds that don't eat, much less girls that don't even have boobs yet.

Wow.  Well now that we have the expert's opinion...

Industrellect wrote:
I would be fine with 14-year old models if there were also 30 year old (or even older) women found on the catwalk and there were more diverse beauties around. But it's only going down the age ladder and the scale, not up, when you're 20 you're almost too old to be newly hired in an agency and when you're at a healthy BMI like 21, you're probably too big. I can't help but wonder what's next.

Industrellect wrote:
I would be fine with 14-year old models if there were also 30 year old (or even older) women found on the catwalk and there were more diverse beauties around. But it's only going down the age ladder and the scale, not up, when you're 20 you're almost too old to be newly hired in an agency and when you're at a healthy BMI like 21, you're probably too big. I can't help but wonder what's next.

There are 30 year olds on the runway. They just "look" much younger. No shit I've been in the company of a working model when she got carded (she had just turned 50). Agencies look for models in their teens and early 20's because they're looking to make a long term investment in her. They're looking for someone with the potential of a 10+ year career.

Holden wrote:
Age is not a barrier to molestation/sexual abuse/rape.

14 year old tennis players, nerdy science geeks, high school newspaper journalists, etc. are victims too.

Rape is not about sex, it's about violence.

Being a runway model does not make a young woman more likely to be abused.

Being 14 instead of 23 does not make a young woman more likely to be abused.

End.

You cannot use absolutes in subjects like this. That is saying that no one ever was raped because the perpetrator wanted sex. I know what some studies say, and they also say that people are different and people's motives are different for many crimes. There is not one 100% absolute concerning rape.

......back to the subject

Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:

Wow.  Well now that we have the expert's opinion...

I seldom respond to this crap due to the immaturity of the people responding.
That said, however ... this just got to me!
I have read all the responses to this ... one comment ... get a life people ... this is a Professional venue ... act professional !!! If you are photographing "boobs" or looking at any model as strictly a "sex object (male or female) you are in the wrong pace and should NOT be allowed around young models ... period. I have fotoed runway and stage performances for over 35 years ... always allowed escorts ... and never EVER had a problem with age. My daughter has been a runway model and she dances Hula and Tahitian since she was 4 ... you going to look at her as a model or a sexy thing ... your answer better be model ... if not get out of this profession ... end of story.

Garry k wrote:
I find that interesting given that Australian super Model Gemma Ward started out at 14

Jane Burgess wrote:
Didn't she also have a drug problem while still in her teens?

No.

Fish
--
John Fisher
910 West Avenue, Suite 306
Miami Beach, Florida  33139
305 534-9322
http://www.johnfisher.com

John Fisher wrote:
Whatever.

One of my favorite stories (repeated here for the first time, I hope. The nice thing about Alzheimer's, I'm always meeting new people!). Anyway, years ago I'm in South Beach visiting an agency with a delightful new face from Washington (the Washington years). While waiting for Mel (who headed new faces, this will give away which agency and how long ago it was!), Vivian had to visit the ladies room. She came back all breathless, "I just met Kate Moss!" No you didn't, I replied. "Yes I did, she came in and asked to borrow my brush, I just met Kate Moss!" No, you didn't, I repeated. "Why do you say that, I'm sure I just met Kate Moss!"

Because, Vivian, you are 14, 5'10, thin, and beautiful. Kate Moss just met you. And right now she's thinking, "Time to marry well!"



Kate obviously has held on longer than I would have predicted (although she is my all time favorite face). Vivian wound up signing with Wilhelmina in New York and I see her from time to time on Fashion TV. One of the new faces I've worked with recently was going from her agency in Milan to work in Shanghai and Beijing and had to change planes in Abu Dhabi, by herself. She turned 18 after she got back home in the States, and before she left for London.



Fish
--
John Fisher
910 West Avenue, Suite 306
Miami Beach, Florida  33139
305 534-9322
http://www.johnfisher.com

Thanks for the Contribution ..

Cris Ashley wrote:

Society has been teaching girls to prance around in dresses since we were 2 years old.
Its not like shes doing a lingerie show.

Who cares.
ugh.

Where do you think they change in a private dressing room?