D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
Okay, I've had it.  Stick a fork in me... I'm DONE.

I've had it with models who want to shoot TFCD, but they must bring there managers.  No More!!!!!

Models:  A photo shoot is a time of creativity and flow.  It is a time for you to express yourself in front of the camera, to be the best you can be so that the photographer can capture you in the best light (pun intended).

But when you bring your so-called manager, you are throwing a wrench in the works.  You are constantly looking to them for approval or suggestions instead of relying on the photographers skill, expertise and creativity.  Managers do not see what the camera sees.

Today was the straw that broke the camels back for me.  I shot a TFCD with a model (with "manager" (lover) in tow.  After the shoot, I gave the model a standard model release to sign, as well as a reciprical release so that she could also use the photos in any way she wanted (i.e. prints, media, websites, calendars, etc.). 

Her manager decided she (the manager is female) would HAND-WRITE a  reciprical release of her own, stating that the model had EQUAL rights to the images. 

I explained that the release I was giving her already gave her the rights to print, reprint, use, modify and publish the images (with proper photo credit), but she demanded that I give equal rights (which implies shared copyright) to the image or her model would not sign my release.

Now, I paid for the studio and the make-up artist.  I set-up the studio, did the shoot, tore down the studio, and am doing the post-production of the images, but she's demanding EQUAL rights to the images.

Of course, I did not, nor will I sign.

Have any other of you photogs come across insanity like this?

Models, what are your thoughts?

These types have no idea what it is to be a professional and it is what you will run into on a consistant basis.

Your first fatal mistake was not having the release signed before the shoot, and in all actuality, before you spent one dime or second of time setting up this shoot.

You could have saved yourself a boatload of hassle by not working backwards in your prequalification process.

There is no such thing as a shared copyright!

You agree to the shoot on your terms and guidelines that you set for yourself or you tell them to take a hike and find some other sucker.

All this bullshit about models wanting a CD they can walk with, rights to edit the image, and the thousand other hairbrained shit they come up with is just that,,
Shit.

You do it on your terms as outlined by what you deem as fair and if they dont like it,,,,Well thats just tough titty.

The same goes for these idiots that cart in some psuedo manager or escort or whatever else they want to call them.

You are 1000% correct, it is a distraction, it does screw up the flow of things and none of them belong on the set, PERIOD!

If they want to bring someone to one of my shoots thats fine, I tell them to leave thier dog in the car and crack the window in a manner of speaking.

When I'm doing a shoot I want zero distractions, at least no distractions from what I can control.

A TFP (Hate that term) is so that he or she will have something for thier online or print portfolio, not to make money selling calendars or any other such thing.

If they make money off of the image you should get a cut and that should be outlined in your agreement as well.

If you make money on the images she should get a cut as well.

Remember this when these idiots come up with all these silly demands, They have no money to hire a photographer to do a port for them and for them to come up with anything other than what is outlined in your terms of agreement should be unacceptable and non-negotable.

The last time I checked, my $30,000 worth of equipment and expertise belonged to me, not some internet wannabe with 2 months under her belt.

And she or he will find out very quickly that any professional will not bend either.
They only get away with that crap is when they are dealing with hard up internet photogs that cant go to an agency and rent a girl for the day.

There is nothing wrong with helping someone on the net but dont lower the standards that you set for yourself.

I guess some may think I'm a harsh bitter old asshole but I have my rules and I stick by them.

And when we go out on a shoot we have a blast, I'm a fun guy to work with, I am flexible and patient with those of less experience and I buy breakfast lunch and dinner and maybe give you some gas money, but dont try to mess with the standards of business practice that I have set up for myself.

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
Okay, I've had it.  Stick a fork in me... I'm DONE.

I've had it with models who want to shoot TFCD, but they must bring their managers. ........what are your thoughts?

Well first of all... that is why I have releases signed BEFORE the shoot... and I put them away and out of (reach!) sight.

Next... when encountered with the same thing ages ago by a  "manager"/boyfriend (John) of a model (Nikki Christian) ... I simply tore the seal and unraveled the film.  DONE.  Serves as a fairly equal  "fuck me? / fuck you!"

Sign it first... if they have a problem with it... they would have had a problem after the shoot as well.

Steven Bigler wrote:

Next... when encountered with the same thing ages ago by an unnamed "manager"/boyfriend (John) of an un named model (Nikki Christian) ... I simply tore the seal and unraveled the film.  DONE.  Serves as a fairly equal  "fuck me? / fuck you!"

Well Mr. Bigler... by stating their names (John/Nikki Christian)... they are NO LONGER unnamed.  Nikki has attended several of our events with 'her friend' John never being a problem.  He's more of a 'distant escort' than any kind of annoying manager could ever be.  And when it comes time to shell out the cash... it's NIKKI who collects the green.  If she ends up giving any of it to John... well... that's between him and her. 

And you ended up wasting your scheduling time, as well as unraveling the film that you shelled out your hard earned cash for?... LOL... dude... in your case, it was DEFINITELY more of a 'fuck me' to you than a 'fuck you' to them.  And you aint hurtin that girl on bit, as her website (http://www.nikkichristian.com) and photographer contacts that she's made thru us are keepin her pretty busy...

vanscottie wrote:
yes i despise managers...i refuse to "ask permission" to shoot a model, thats between her and me

anyway what happened after your refusal to sign???

vanscottie wrote:
yes i despise managers...i refuse to "ask permission" to shoot a model, thats between her and me

anyway what happened after your refusal to sign???

She said she would call her lawyer and ask him what rights she should have.  I told her to do whatever she wanted, but I was not going to sign over my rights.  I also told her that if she was going to be a Manager, she should first learn the business aspects of the business.  I told her to "google" model releases and see what is "standard", then deal with it.  I also told her that she was in no position to demand anything. 

The model tried to calm things down.  I had already told the model that the CD would be ready on Monday, so the model said we would continue the "negotiations" then. 

Don't worry.  You can bet that I will deal with this.  The model was surprizingly good for her first time shooting, but her "manager" is about to screw her out of her images.

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:

She said she would call her lawyer and ask him what rights she should have.  I told her to do whatever she wanted, but I was not going to sign over my rights.  I also told her that if she was going to be a Manager, she should first learn the business aspects of the business.  I told her to "google" model releases and see what is "standard", then deal with it.  I also told her that she was in no position to demand anything. 

The model tried to calm things down.  I had already told the model that the CD would be ready on Monday, so the model said we would continue the "negotiations" then. 

Don't worry.  You can bet that I will deal with this.  The model was surprizingly good for her first time shooting, but her "manager" is about to screw her out of her images.

Well, hopefully this will be a learning experience for the model and some good will come of it. There really is nothing to negotiate; your initial deal with her is further than many photographers would go (myself included). So, hopefully she knows her sluggette is costing her images, reputation, and quite possible more work down the road.

  -P-

Select Models wrote:
......And you aint hurtin that girl on bit, as her website (http://www.nikkichristian.com) and photographer contacts that she's made thru us are keepin her pretty busy...

Gary... no I am not "hurtin" her at all... or having anything to do with her at all.
Clearly you were not privvy to her beginnings as I was and what SHE told me she wanted to be doing... which is certainly not what she is NOW doing.  I'm glad she is glad to be doing whatever it is you / she / her / him / etc... are all doing.  But it is FAR from the goal she wanted to be doing.  Don't judge the turkey for being overcooked and dry, when it wanted to be soup!

(whatthefuckdidthatmean????!!!!!)

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
The model tried to calm things down.  I had already told the model that the CD would be ready on Monday, so the model said we would continue the "negotiations" then.

That wasn't a "negotiation" that was the "mod...doo manager" equivalent to a "drive by shooting"

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
Don't worry.  You can bet that I will deal with this.  The model was surprizingly good for her first time shooting, but her "manager" is about to screw her out of her images.

Let it go that way... let the "manager" do the job on her own model. If you don't cut either of them any slack this time the model will learn from it [maybe].

As for the paperwork? The 'Ol Guru says: No tickie = No laundry. Neither one of them seems to realise that you can still use the images in limited ways even without a release.

Studio36

Steven Bigler wrote:
Gary... no I am not "hurtin" her at all... or having anything to do with her at all.
Clearly you were not privvy to her beginnings as I was and what SHE told me she wanted to be doing... which is certainly not what she is NOW doing.  I'm glad she is glad to be doing whatever it is you / she / her / him / etc... are all doing.  But it is FAR from the goal she wanted to be doing.

Interesting.  You state that you're having 'nothing to do with her at all'... yet you claim to know more about what 'her goals are' than even she does... LOL!  And unlike you, I wasn't 'privvy to her beginnings'... wasn't in the delivery room when the doctor smacked her on the backside... was she cute in the beginning?... LOL!  I think I'll just call Nikki up tomorrow and ask her what her goals are... just to see if they concur with what YOUR goals for her are.  You're amazing...

Darque wrote:
The whole manager thing seems overrated.  If the "manager is NOT booking you work, seeing about you business, or improving your situation then what are they there for?   Manager's are NOT art directors,  they should not have a say in a shoot.


Darque

Well since this discussion is about a incident in California California rules apply

It is not the job of a "manager" to get work for models. In fact, in California it's illegal for a manager to get work for models. The person who gets work for models is an "agent". In California an "agent" must be licensed and bonded.

A "Manager" is responsible for everything or anything that enhances the development of an artist career. They can give advise, counsel talent/artist in the entertainment industry. Managers can also act as a liaison between their client(s) and talent agent. MANAGERS CAN NOT OBTAIN OR PROCURE EMPLOYMENT FOR AN ARTIST!


If you want to read al about the details here it is
California Code of Regulations, Title 8
Chapter 6. Division of Labor Standards Enforcement
http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/ch6sb3.html

If you want to check out what agencies in CA are legit or not this link will take you to the Ca website to do a search.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/databases/dlselr/Talag.html

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
You are constantly looking to them for approval or suggestions instead of relying on the photographers skill, expertise and creativity.

That is a good point, and is actually one of the major problems having any escort in the room while a photographer shoots.  Models often look to the escort, rather than the photographer for approval.

I don't understand why she wanted to hand write a license though?  It sounds like your license was already liberal.

Talent Management Contract [EXTRACTS]

* Talent agrees to pay Management a non-refundable fee of $250 for startup costs of this contract to cover setup and administrative costs.

* Clients: All clients are and remain the sole ownership of the Management. Once a Talent has worked a job through Management, Talent agrees that he or she will do no work for the client outside the realm of this contract for (3) three years with said client or representatives of said client.

* Marketing Point: Talent agrees to turn over control of One Model Place portfolio to Management or to allow Management to create a talent portfolio on One Model Place to which Management has control over.

* Term: This agreement shall take affect as of the first date set forth above, and remain in full force until mutually agreed upon, unless terminated as provided in termination clause below.

* Termination: This Agreement may be terminated by a paid offer to buy this Agreement from the Management with the consent of the Management in writing. If any concessions, residuals or fee arrangements are made prior to termination, Management shall continue to receive percentages. If any interest is generated through Management’s efforts that cause the Talent to receive funds, Management shall also receive the percentage agreed upon in this agreement or a prenegotiated percentage thereafter.

* Commissions: The Management shall be entitled to 20% (percent) commission for work and all residuals income on contracts or arrangements obtained through Talent and Management’s association and 10% (percent) commission on work found by talent on their own or through other resources such as talent agencies. This also includes designs and or creations for the term of any agreement in which the Managements and Talent’s efforts cause copyrighted material, shows, residuals, or any other form of income for the life of each agreement by or created by the Management or the Talent’s association and or associations referred or introduced to talent by Management or Management’s lead getting work.

--------

Lets analyse this a bit...

So the model gets to pay this "manager" $250 bucks as an up-front fee on DAY ONE! Then 20% of any work the manager gets them [IF they ever get them any work at all] BUT it doesn't matter one intsy teensy bit because the "manager" ALSO gets 10% of all other work no matter how it is obtained... and the selling point is that the manager gets to place and control a listing on OMP.

Even better, the contract has no temporal cut-off [fixed term] - it runs forever - unless terminated by a buy-out... and only terminates if the "manager" agrees to it.

Anyone even considering this would have to be nuts, desperate, or friggen stupid, [or all three,] to sign off on this agreement. Giving the "manager" $250 up front; and the 10% non-referral commission; positively insures that they don't have to, and maybe even won't ever, do a thing beyond collecting money from the talent.

I assure you this in not an out-and-out scam. It is actually from a talent management contract that is connected to a "photographer" cum "model manager"

ROTFLMAO ! ! !  OMP on-line promotion indeed!

I also note with some interest the part called "CLIENTS" that make this look for all the world like an "AGENCY" contract rather than merely a "MANAGEMENT" agreement.

Studio36

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
Her manager decided she (the manager is female) would HAND-WRITE a  reciprical release of her own, stating that the model had EQUAL rights to the images. 

I explained that the release I was giving her already gave her the rights to print, reprint, use, modify and publish the images (with proper photo credit), but she demanded that I give equal rights (which implies shared copyright) to the image or her model would not sign my release.

Now, I paid for the studio and the make-up artist.  I set-up the studio, did the shoot, tore down the studio, and am doing the post-production of the images, but she's demanding EQUAL rights to the images.

Of course, I did not, nor will I sign.

Have any other of you photogs come across insanity like this?

Models, what are your thoughts?

Due to this sort of crap from "models," boyfriends, and "managers" I negotiate up front & won't do ANY work unless the signed NOTARIZED releases are in my hands up front.

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
I hope everybody here realizes the Model Mayhem has a no "net" manager (sluggo) policy. If you contact a model and some sluggo answers back please use the contact a mod feature https://www.modelmayhem.com/contactamod.php and it will be dealt with!

LOL, never heard that term before, where'd it come from?

SLE Photography wrote:
Due to this sort of crap from "models," boyfriends, and "managers" I negotiate up front & won't do ANY work unless the signed NOTARIZED releases are in my hands up front.

Would also be tempting to force the "manager" to sign, on their agreement to provide the model at some particular place and time for some particular agreed-in-advance project, a financial liability agreement [liquidated damages] making THEM responsible for "failure to perform" - they don't show up, they get the bill - they don't sign off on the paperwork as agreed, they get the bill - for all of those up-front costs the photographer puts out in preparation of the shoot.

If they're not going to put their money where their mouth is = you won't use their talent.

And I don't care if it is TFwhatever.

Studio36

vanscottie wrote:
yes i despise managers...i refuse to "ask permission" to shoot a model, thats between her and me

anyway what happened after your refusal to sign???

Well I Ihate that you have a great disliking toward managers.  I am a photographer, and I also "manage"/ help models as well., in the sense that I have connections with people. (So in essence I am a just a helpful photographer.) As a "manager" I arrange shoots, lead the models to book jobs, etc. I sometimes do basic background checks on new clients, and some photogs, just to make sure they are legitimate. It is for the sheer safety of the models, and the security of their financial compensation, (if any). That is a managers/friends job, to look after your friend or fellow man... "Am I my brother's keeper". A good photographer/friend/human being would try to ensure the same things.
As far as accompanying a model to a shoot, NO, I don't do that.. These are grown, and supposedly responsible individuals...
On the photographer side... Only the model, and hairstylist are allowed "on set" period...  I do agree that the shoot is the time for the Model and photographer to "feed" off of one another, to maximize creativity, and focus on the goal of the shoot.. No need for outside distractions...

studio36uk wrote:
Would also be tempting to force the "manager" to sign, on their agreement to provide the model at some particular place and time for some particular agreed-in-advance project, a financial liability agreement [liquidated damages] making THEM responsible for "failure to perform" - they don't show up, they get the bill - they don't sign off on the paperwork as agreed, they get the bill - for all of those up-front costs the photographer puts out in preparation of the shoot.

If they're not going to put their money where their mouth is = you won't use their talent.

And I don't care if it is TFwhatever.

Studio36

That's BEAUTIFUL!
Move to Mass & marry me?  :-D

(Ok, maybe not, but that's a great idea)

studio36uk wrote:
Here are extracts from a "model manager's" contract with models that is actually photographic model related:


--------

Lets analyse this a bit...

So the model gets to pay this "manager" $250 bucks as an up-front fee on DAY ONE! Then 20% of any work the manager gets them [IF they ever get them any work at all] BUT it doesn't matter one intsy teensy bit because the "manager" ALSO gets 10% of all other work no matter how it is obtained... and the selling point is that the manager gets to place and control a listing on OMP.

Even better, the contract has no temporal cut-off [fixed term] - it runs forever - unless terminated by a buy-out... and only terminates if the "manager" agrees to it.

Anyone even considering this would have to be nuts, desperate, or friggen stupid, [or all three,] to sign off on this agreement. Giving the "manager" $250 up front; and the 10% non-referral commission; positively insures that they don't have to, and maybe even won't ever, do a thing beyond collecting money from the talent.

I assure you this in not an out-and-out scam. It is actually from a talent management contract that is connected to a "photographer" cum "model manager"

ROTFLMAO ! ! !  OMP on-line promotion indeed!

I also note with some interest the part called "CLIENTS" that make this look for all the world like an "AGENCY" contract rather than merely a "MANAGEMENT" agreement.

Studio36

hmmmmm who composed this contract?

Torrence Williams wrote:
I also manage models as well. As a manager I arrange shoots, book jobs, etc. I sometimes do basic background checks on new clients, and some photogs, just to make sure they are legitimate. It is for the sheer safety of the models, and the security of their financial compensation, (if any). That is a managers job.

No it's NOT. Arranging shoots and "booking" models is an AGENT's job NOT a manager's.

So are you a manager or an agent? If you have "clients" other than the models themselves then you are an agent

EXACTLY a reason NOT to hire or shoot any of your talent! Duh!

Studio36

images by elahi wrote:
hmmmmm who composed this contract?

I am not going to name names here BUT it was found on the web by searching the term "talent management agreeements" and poped up on a photographer cum model manager's website.

I have the name and contact details and the business location, FWIW, is in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

Studio36