Steven Bigler wrote:
you don't have a clue about me or my past / present / future... You peddle your workshops... I'd offer to give you a clinic... but I really couldn't give 2 shits about you.

-done.

Ditto... you also have no clue on my past, present or future.  I dont peddle workshops.  I provide photographers and models with opportunities to work with each other in controlled environments... giving photographers a chance to work with models they couldnt normally afford, while giving models the option of working with talented photographers, receiving free images and pay at the same time... much more beneficial than any TFP assignment.  Workshops provide directors with instruction and usually cost photographers several hundred dollars.  I am admittedly not qualified to be a photographic workshop instructor.  In fact, most of the photographers that attend my events are usually more educated, talented and creative than I am.  I've checked out your images and your claimed accomplishments, and to be quite honest with you, there's dozens of photographers who've attended my past events who FAR exceed whatever it is you could possibly offer... so ah... your right about that 'not giving 2 shits' part for sure... done...

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
http://member.onemodelplace.com/member.cfm?P_ID=5516

Dan... now don't go picking on Steve Az... he seems like a cool guy.
(Besides... you got the link wrong!:  http://www.onemodelplace.com/member.cfm?P_ID=5516  )

...wait... that is the same link!  I'm confused!!!!!

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
After the shoot, I gave the model a standard model release to sign, as well as a reciprical release so that she could also use the photos in any way she wanted (i.e. prints, media, websites, calendars, etc.). 

Have any other of you photogs come across insanity like this?

Models, what are your thoughts?

Here is your problem. Have the release signed BEFORE you do the shoot or no good.

What if the issue was age and the model turned out to be sixteen?

Steven Bigler wrote:

Dan... now don't go picking on Steve Az... he seems like a cool guy.
(Besides... you got the link wrong!:  http://www.onemodelplace.com/member.cfm?P_ID=5516  )

...wait... that is the same link!  I'm confused!!!!!

I bet you get confused a lot.........

I'm sure Steve is a swell guy, but the fact that he and many others posted here slam "Sluggos" then come to find out they have their own little internet harem.

I'm just saying it seems funny when they cant stand sluggos yet are sluggos themselves.......

Yes Bigler the winds of hypocrisy blow strong on the plains of Mayhem

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
Now that is funny, the guy who hates "sluggos"  so much yet is one of the King sluggos himself.  19 little hotties in his omp stable
http://member.onemodelplace.com/member.cfm?P_ID=5516

The hypocrisy around here is amazing

That was completely out of line, Dan.  I know Azzara and I know that no matter how many models list his number as "manager" on OMP, he's not managing anyone. He doesn't read their mail, give instruction or any other sluggo crap.  The OMP system allows any model to list any member as her manager.  I don't know why anyone would bother. Several models who also have MUA or photographer accounts there actually list themselves as managers so they can amend both profiles from one log in.

As for the rest of this thread, it makes my head hurt. SO much misinformation, so little time! My ex-paralegal head spins.  Learn what a release is. Learn what it does.  Learn what copyright is and what it does.  Learn what a model manager is and what it does or just shut the hell up. 

Yes, amatuers will sometimes ask for unreasonable things. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all learn to communicate clearly before the shoot happens?

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
Let me reiterate!
Model Mayhem has a no "net" manager (sluggo) policy. If you contact a model and some sluggo answers back please use the contact a moderator feature https://www.modelmayhem.com/contactamod.php and it will be dealt with!




While I'm at it
why they are called sluggos around here
https://modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=4956

If there is no policy, then what's the violation?

Select Models wrote:
I dont peddle workshops.

That may be technically correct, but you've compared your events/supershoots/glamourshoots/photoshoots/"I don't honestly consider our events to be 'photodays'"/whatever-you-call-them to commercial shoots multiple times and to workshops even more often, that it's easy to see how someone would think they were being pimped, er, touted as being workshops.

Your regulars certainly know better, but Steven isn't in that circle, and is seems disingeneous to fault him for being mislead by repeated misleading claims.  (Even Mary Erickson thought you had instructors when this came up last year, and she's not a sloppy reader.)

Select Models wrote:
much more beneficial than any TFP assignment.

You've made this claim many times before, but never gave any reason to believe it. Could you explain? You seem to believe--or at least claim that your "personal viewpoint on TFP (Time For Prints) assignments is... we think its a rippoff!", stating that skill levels on the parts of either the model or photographer have plateaued, yet providing no justification to indicate it's any different at your events.

(Claims of "several quality, grade 'A' models (not loser wannabees)" being present doesn't make it so (though I'm curious as to what a grade 'A' model would actually be if there were any real definition of it.)

Select Models wrote:
In fact, most of the photographers that attend my events are usually more educated, talented and creative than I am.  I've checked out your images and your claimed accomplishments, and to be quite honest with you, there's dozens of photographers who've attended my past events who FAR exceed whatever it is you could possibly offer... so ah... your right about that 'not giving 2 shits' part for sure... done...

Dozens? I suppose it's possible if you counted  the "1000s of models & photographers attending thru-out the [last 13] years", but even then I'd suspect that belief to be based on your education, talent and creativity, and using your own expectations. (For example: would a model at your event prefer a chance to "win" $400 or a chance to be published in a national magazine? Different assumptions lead to different answers.)

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
Let me reiterate!
Model Mayhem has a no "net" manager (sluggo) policy.[...]

mphunt wrote:
If there is no policy, then what's the violation?

Slight difference between

"has a no 'net' manager (sluggo) policy" and
"has no policy".

They're opposites, in fact, due to that silly little letter 'a'.

theda wrote:

That was completely out of line, Dan.  I know Azzara and I know that no matter how many models list his number as "manager" on OMP, he's not managing anyone. He doesn't read their mail, give instruction or any other sluggo crap.  The OMP system allows any model to list any member as her manager.  I don't know why anyone would bother. Several models who also have MUA or photographer accounts there actually list themselves as managers so they can amend both profiles from one log in.

Well Theda he may be your best bud and a totally righteous dude but the fact is 19 models list him. If he doesn't like it he can remove the numbers from his port.  Many photographers wont contact a model with the manager link, I bet he knows that yet he still allows them to list him. What does that say......

Kevin Connery wrote:

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
Let me reiterate!
Model Mayhem has a no "net" manager (sluggo) policy.[...]

Slight difference between

"has a no 'net' manager (sluggo) policy" and
"has no policy".

They're opposites, in fact, due to that silly little letter 'a'.

Sorry, not enough coffee. 

Kevin Connery wrote:

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
Let me reiterate!
Model Mayhem has a no "net" manager (sluggo) policy.[...]

Slight difference between

"has a no 'net' manager (sluggo) policy" and
"has no policy".

They're opposites, in fact, due to that silly little letter 'a'.

Huhh...
it's right.... MM has a "no manager policy"

I dont see your point.

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
Okay, I've had it.  Stick a fork in me... I'm DONE.

I've had it with models who want to shoot TFCD, but they must bring there managers.  No More!!!!!

Models:  A photo shoot is a time of creativity and flow.  It is a time for you to express yourself in front of the camera, to be the best you can be so that the photographer can capture you in the best light (pun intended).

But when you bring your so-called manager, you are throwing a wrench in the works.  You are constantly looking to them for approval or suggestions instead of relying on the photographers skill, expertise and creativity.  Managers do not see what the camera sees.

Today was the straw that broke the camels back for me.  I shot a TFCD with a model (with "manager" (lover) in tow.  After the shoot, I gave the model a standard model release to sign, as well as a reciprical release so that she could also use the photos in any way she wanted (i.e. prints, media, websites, calendars, etc.). 

Her manager decided she (the manager is female) would HAND-WRITE a  reciprical release of her own, stating that the model had EQUAL rights to the images. 

I explained that the release I was giving her already gave her the rights to print, reprint, use, modify and publish the images (with proper photo credit), but she demanded that I give equal rights (which implies shared copyright) to the image or her model would not sign my release.

Now, I paid for the studio and the make-up artist.  I set-up the studio, did the shoot, tore down the studio, and am doing the post-production of the images, but she's demanding EQUAL rights to the images.

Of course, I did not, nor will I sign.

Have any other of you photogs come across insanity like this?

Models, what are your thoughts?

sorry, but it's model's time to butt in now...  I think I read most of this , but there is so much and you can't expect a model to do that much reading, right?  lol

I don't usually involve myself in these types of discussions, but I know a lot of photographers and I have heard about this a lot.  Has anyone gone back to the beginning of this discussion and asked this question? :

If you were just doing a test, why did you need a model release in the first place?!?  If the pictures were just for your portfolio then the photographer owns the images and the model and the photographer both have the right to use it for their own self promotion already without signing anything!  I have never signed a release for a test, and my agency would kill me if I did.  I don't sign releases for editorial either.  I never even sign a release for jobs.  the voucher a client fills out with the pay, names and everything that I turn into my agency for billing acts as the release that allows them to use the pictures for the specified use.  The only time to ever sign a release is when it is going to be used for advertising or if the pictures are being sold.  The only time for no pay was with Terry Richardson.  he has you sign a release saying that you know he may publish nude pictures of you in one of his books, obviously so later you cant sue him saying he damaged your career.

If it is for your book, there is no reason to sign a release. 

And for you guys that ruined your pictures because they wouldn't sign a release, you could still use the pictures for your books without the release!!!  that was a dumb move, sorry.

natalia v wrote:

sorry, but it's model's time to butt in now...  I think I read most of this , but there is so much and you can't expect a model to do that much reading, right?  lol

I don't usually involve myself in these types of discussions, but I know a lot of photographers and I have heard about this a lot.  Has anyone gone back to the beginning of this discussion and asked this question? :

If you were just doing a test, why did you need a model release in the first place?!?  If the pictures were just for your portfolio then the photographer owns the images and the model and the photographer both have the right to use it for their own self promotion already without signing anything!  I have never signed a release for a test, and my agency would kill me if I did.  I don't sign releases for editorial either.  I never even sign a release for jobs.  the voucher a client fills out with the pay, names and everything that I turn into my agency for billing acts as the release that allows them to use the pictures for the specified use.  The only time to ever sign a release is when it is going to be used for advertising or if the pictures are being sold.  The only time for no pay was with Terry Richardson.  he has you sign a release saying that you know he may publish nude pictures of you in one of his books, obviously so later you cant sue him saying he damaged your career.

If it is for your book, there is no reason to sign a release. 

And for you guys that ruined your pictures because they wouldn't sign a release, you could still use the pictures for your books without the release!!!  that was a dumb move, sorry.

There are some basic differences between TEST and TFP just as there are between an agency and independent model but you make an interesting point.  You also answered your own question.  You signed a release for Terry Richardson for the potential future use of the images.  It is no different for any other photographer.  I may be showing my book a year from now and the art director loves the shot.  Five years from now I may choose to display in a gallery or decide to publish a book.  You may not be able to contact the model in the future (moved etc.) to procure a release.   I do agree however, it is silly to destroy the images.  This should all be clearly communicated prior to the shoot.

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:

Huhh...
it's right.... MM has a "no manager policy"

I dont see your point.

He was replying to someone else who thought MM has no policy on managers vs a no manager policy.  That's the point.

Torrence Williams wrote:
First off Managers, can perform duties as an agent.

As has been noted, this depends on the state you live in.  In some states, managers & agents are distictly different legal entities.

Select Models wrote:


Shot of Nikki at last years 'Laguna Beach Photoshoot'!

Can we get some reflector or fill flash to eliminate those shadows on her face, please?  :-)

Steven Bigler wrote:
Well first of all... that is why I have releases signed BEFORE the shoot... and I put them away and out of (reach!) sight.

Next... when encountered with the same thing ages ago by a  "manager"/boyfriend (John) of a model (Nikki Christian) ... I simply tore the seal and unraveled the film.  DONE.  Serves as a fairly equal  "fuck me? / fuck you!"

Sign it first... if they have a problem with it... they would have had a problem after the shoot as well.

LMAO as Gary said. You hurt Nikki HOW exactly???? LOL Gotta love managers. Some are great and realy help facillitate things. Some hinder the process. As seems to be the case here.

I know I have dealt with models who have asked me to manage their affairs for them to insure they are treated fairly and sometimes because they are too busy to really keep track of themselves.

My role in that regard is deal with the initial stuff and present options. From that point on it's up to her who they shoot with and when.

The occasional times I've gone on shoots I pretty much end up taking a nap or spending the entire time on the phone working on other things. (Usually yelling at MY managers, directors, insurance agent, and agent)

But as a general rule I MAY deal with a manager once depending on how bad I want to work with the model, and they have all of 30 seconds to make a good impression before I get the models information directly. Can anyone say Bay Area Talent???? LOL

And if your "Manager" is taking a set percentage of your money or getting you work then at least in California they are an AGENT and MUST be licensed.

But that is what you get when you deal with people who are totally ignorant on how business is handled. Yet another reason why so many photographers and models with great potential get no where. Absolutly ZERO business sense.

natalia v wrote:
The only time for no pay was with Terry Richardson.  he has you sign a release saying that you know he may publish nude pictures of you in one of his books, obviously so later you cant sue him saying he damaged your career.

Well, there you go, if it's for TERRY RICHARDSON it's OK

*rolls over in peels of laughter*

WHY that no-talent moron gets so much acclaim & latitude is something I will NEVER understand

Darque wrote:
Manager's are NOT art directors,  they should not have a say in a shoot.

My favorite question for annoying "Managers" .... "When did I make you the AD? Oh wait I didn't so shut the fuck up and go sit in the corner until Im done." Add the Im not looking at you Im looking through you 1000 yard stare and it works everytime.

Though sometimes they make things so much more fun by offering up ideas and encouragement. Had one girl bring her suitcase pimp to a shoot and he had her doing stuff on this machine that I wouldn't have even thought to ask her to do. It was great.

byReno wrote:
There are some basic differences between TEST and TFP just as there are between an agency and independent model but you make an interesting point.  You also answered your own question.  You signed a release for Terry Richardson for the potential future use of the images.  It is no different for any other photographer.  I may be showing my book a year from now and the art director loves the shot.  Five years from now I may choose to display in a gallery or decide to publish a book.  You may not be able to contact the model in the future (moved etc.) to procure a release.   I do agree however, it is silly to destroy the images.  This should all be clearly communicated prior to the shoot.

The difference is most other photographers aren't going to get you the acclaim a Terry Richardson book would, so signing away rights for a few shots isn't worth it.

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
Well Theda he may be your best bud and a totally righteous dude but the fact is 19 models list him. If he doesn't like it he can remove the numbers from his port.  Many photographers wont contact a model with the manager link, I bet he knows that yet he still allows them to list him. What does that say......

Not as much as you think it does, because not that many photographers run in fear if they see a manager icon on a model's OMP page.  Most wait until the manager actually butts in to run in fear. 

In all your time on OMP, it's odd that you would never have picked up on the buddy-link thing. There's a definite segment of OMP users who use the manager link as the ultimate public acknowledgement.

The fact is, you're making false accusations based on the presense of an OMP link. Since I happen to know the guy, I figured I'd correct you, but you just don't want to be wrong about this one.

Kevin Connery wrote:
but even then I'd suspect

Yep... suspicions for sure... still dazed and confused after all your exposure to my website and MM port (you must have it memorized by now... LOL).  Well KC... after hearing all your rhetoric... there's STILL only one credo I operate under... here it is: (copy and pasted directly from my MM port)

HERE'S SOME ADVANTAGES OF ATTENDING ORGANIZED PHOTOGRAPHIC MODELING EVENTS

FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS: To rent a terrific studio, hire a makeup artist & book 3-4 great models, it could cost $500-$900 and more, right? Guess again! The cost of our next event is $70, and it comes with everything listed above. Only exception is, you're splittin the cost with a few more guys. Are you tired of booking models, just to have them flake out & not show? Have you paid for props, backgrounds & equipment, locations & transportation cost, only to find that you've been stood up by an inconsiderate model? Would you like the convenience of working with several great models within the same time period? Are you pissed off about all the permits, licences, insurances requirements and red-tape bullshit you have to deal with when trying to organize your shoot?

FOR MODELS: Are you hoping your photographer is someone you can trust, not a creep or sex offender? Are you afraid the location or environment will be unsafe, or not to your liking? We do not host nude events. You will never be forced to pose nude against your own free will. Would you like a variety of interesting and artistic images? This is something you get by working with a few different photographers who possess their own creative style. Do you think you are actually worth hiring & tired of not getting paid?

We can sympathize & relate to your concerns. What Select Models offers is an opportunity to solve these problems, by organizing events that keep both parties happy. Working with models & photographers in small groups, or '1 on 1' is more the rule than the exception. Granted, the group shoots we host are not for everyone, but if you're a talented photographer in SoCal who is looking for attractive models to work with at reasonable rates, you may have found your most convenient & cost effective solution. We supply the location, so you dont have to mess with all the shooting permits, parking passes, license fees & insurance requirements that are many times MANDATORY for shooting in this state. If you're a beginning or advanced model looking to network & shoot with several quality, talented photographers, participating in a few of our shoots could open many doors for you. We invite only the most promising & attractive models to our events. If you think you cant make enough money, think again. Jeska Vardinski (MM#14883) attended our January event & went home with well over $300 for a few hours work (combination of pay & model release money) and many great (free) images for her MM port. We're not saying every model can make this much money, but it is possible to make even more. If you network effeciently with photographers, some strong future income potential is there. We select several beautiful event locations each year, offering a variety of backgrounds at all locations. We invite pro & semi-pro photographers who take their craft of image creation seriously. Models are paid cash, get talented & trustworthy photographers to work with, offering different styles of images & different looks, providing variety in your portfolio. Nothing shouts 'amateur' louder in an online portfolio than the same basic style, same backgrounds, or for photographers, many photos of only a few different models. We have hosted over 120 photographic modeling events since 1992, with 1000s of models & photographers attending thru-out the years. The largest event had 91 models and 311 photographers in attendance (Humphries Mansion/1995). Future events will NOT be that insane, with emphasis on the quality of participants, NOT the quantity. Thanks for visiting our page. Look forward to working with you at future events.

theda wrote:

The difference is most other photographers aren't going to get you the acclaim a Terry Richardson book would, so signing away rights for a few shots isn't worth it.

That may very well be the case.  We all want acclaim.  One needs to weigh the potential.  If you are only concerned with immediate gratification as most are, by all means it is not worth it.  If you are looking to the future, well,  there is a reason there is a saying “Be careful who you step on….â€?.