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Model Behaviour
elisaveta â wrote: I, again, agree with Mary on this. Many accomplished makup artists would also tell you that what looks good in "normal light" most of the time does not look good for the camera. Flashes and hotlights look different and require different makeup application. What looks good to a model has nothing to do with the results. If one is a model in a shoot, be a model, take that role only, don't be a makeup consultant nor a stylist. It is not only annoying, it is disrespectful. Mar 03 06 02:35 pm Link Lynn wrote: Lynn said it very well. To say that models deserve respect is fine, to say that they deserve the most respect is not true. Everyone in the team deserves the utmost respect from the rest of the team. The model's expertise is to model. The stylist's expertise is to style. Makeup artist makeup, and the photographer pulls the final product together with the vision that the team carried out. The Art Director directs and pulls together the big picture. Everyone needs to do their parts and do not infringe on the others' expertise, because they possess little of such. Mar 03 06 02:41 pm Link Nerlande wrote: Your skin tone is so NOT hard to match. LOL. Mar 03 06 02:43 pm Link Ashley Elizabeth wrote: Duh Ashley and you made me look awesome! Mar 03 06 02:46 pm Link I wanted to add, I'm with Mary on this one. The model should not direct the make-up artist unless that model is paying the make-up artist. Come on now. That's common sense in the real world. Maybe not so in the internet world. But then again, I don't think I've ever had a model tell me how her make-up should be done. Thank God for professional models who's agents let them know how things work and who did not learn all they know about modeling from watching America's Next Top Model. Now if we're talking about a test, then if the model wants me to do something different, I'm glad to do so after we shoot what was planned first. Mar 03 06 03:07 pm Link elisaveta â wrote: If a model changes her attitude because she isnt a happy camper she needs to find another line of work. Models are there to model and pretend your beautiful even if you dont feel beautiful....thats what a pro does....IN FACT....most professional models do not even look in the mirror, they dont want to be influenced, they want to give it their best and they cant do that when negative emotions enter....I suggest you stop looking in the mirror...unless its a test, do what you want, thats not what I am talking about here. Mar 03 06 03:10 pm Link Going to add my two cents... If the shoot is trade I always ask to see samples of the MUA's work... and we discuss looks and goals before s/he starts applying makeup... I also feel a little more at liberty to voice my likes and dislikes (like red eyeshadow and faked liplines)... I see trade shoots as collaborations... If its a J-O-B i keep my opinions to myself - you can scribble on my face with crayolas for all I care - if i look like shit I know I am not to blame... I always show up with a clean face and hair. Mar 03 06 03:26 pm Link Ivy Red wrote: thank you...... ALSO, keep in mind, if a model gives input on a paid job and an artist actually listens and the client isnt happy with the outcome, guess who takes the blame? thats right, the model and who really wants that resonsability. Mar 03 06 03:29 pm Link Mary wrote: I to be honest, very rarely look in the mirror when/while/during my face is being done...actually make-up artists have asked me if I wanted to see what the make-up looks like! Mar 03 06 03:50 pm Link lll wrote: I hope you're not really referring to me by saying all that...if we worked together and you had that experience with me, than YES you could come back to this thread and diss me all you want! But until then I think we should all respect eachother! Mar 03 06 03:54 pm Link elisaveta â wrote: Awww, of course it's not about you, silly! You know I love ya! Mar 03 06 03:58 pm Link Ivy Red wrote: that could be really cool...i'm writing it down now Mar 03 06 03:58 pm Link so much to respond to, but such a busy day. will reply, in earnest, later... in the meantime, think about it people: who is the most valuable member of the team? name me a single photographer, make-up artist, hair stylist or wardrobe stylist with a contract the size of gisele's? we have all had bad experiences with unprofessional people, but the talent on screen is the most important part of the process. at the very least, they have a voice and an opinion that is equal to anyone else's. ciao for now. Mar 03 06 04:02 pm Link Ivy Red wrote: I agree with this as well. I've been on a few shoots with a MUA and just showed up with a clean face. I would NEVER ask them to do what I thought because it isn't appropriate. It IS their job to make me up; and that's why they are hired. I never thought, oh will I look beautiful when they're done? Modeling isn't about me, or me wanting to look beautiful. Modeling isn't about us anyhow. The world of Modeing is really an illusion -- and entertainment. It's for us to please the world, not ourselves! Mar 03 06 04:04 pm Link marcoANTONIO wrote: I COULD NOT DISAGREE MORE! If everyone was replacable, VS would have hired a Kmart model to do their campaigns, not Giselle Bundchen!!! Keep that in mind!! Mar 03 06 04:13 pm Link elisaveta â wrote: The next Giselle Bundchen can be sitting on the bus next to me on my way to work right now. EVERYONE has an expiration date. Its all about the Moment. Brad and Gwyneth? Brad and Jen? Brad and Angelina!!! Mar 03 06 04:28 pm Link I think especially on here where the models are generally amateur/semi-professional and sometimes (myself included) just beginning in this industry that the make-up artists/stylists and photographers are people to treat with exteme respect. Not only are they giving unknown people a chance at modelling, but they are effectively the best education the model will get in how to pose better, in how to function in the industry etc. Respect in any working atmosphere is expected; it shouldn't be any different with this environment. Mar 03 06 04:35 pm Link marcoANTONIO wrote: Yes, she COULD be, sure...there are tons of Brad's and Angelina's, and Giselle's out there, BUT NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT THEM Mar 03 06 04:38 pm Link Unless I'm given artistic license to do what I want, my job is to listen to the client. I've had clients pull pictures out of mag, and ask me to reproduce the look- fine. Models are often considered by their versatility, not necessarily their beauty. I see my role as part of production, it's not about me or the model Mar 03 06 04:42 pm Link Ivy Red wrote: model who lie about their age, weight and height! Mar 03 06 04:47 pm Link From experience- I've been on both sides of the camera- as a MUA I am usually in on the planning stages of the shoot with the art director, fashion stylist, and photographer (discussing lighting, the feel, the vision) - but as a model (even at an agency test, because your agent is trying to market you) I was never part of the design process. I showed up and did the best I could, trusting and respecting the art direction. I'm not putting anyone down or saying that any one job is more important, but these are the undeniable facts. In the end it is usally the model who gets credit for it all- so I don't see the problem. Mar 03 06 04:53 pm Link craig wrote: what does Gisele have to do with this? I see no body even close to her caliber on MM.... When Gisele is on a shoot the makeup artist and photographer hired are big names in the industry....I guarantee you Gisele doesnt dictate how things are done on a shoot. On most shoots people are all in the same caliber.... When Testino is hired I am sure a huge named artist and model are also hired... People of this caliber do not step outside their boundries, the amatuers are the ones that get the boundries confused because they are often working with people that are clueless and they feel superior or like they know more then the others...this doesnt happen when you group top industry people together on a shoot. Mar 03 06 05:06 pm Link oh, and yes Gisele can be replaced....Kate Moss was replaced by a few big clients after her cocaine fiasco.....Nobody said "gosh, Kate is the only Model out there" There is not one model at the top of the heap, if you have the money to hire a super model, you do have choices Mar 03 06 05:13 pm Link Is itust me or did this thread begin with "(assume TFP)" Why all this MUA stuff, I never used one a TRP unless the TRP was for the MUA. most models I do TFP bring do there own makeup or have a friend do it ( I dont consider that a MUA). As for models, beyond general unprofesionalism, I get annoyed when they want to talk about their lives. Dont take this wrong I'm not unfriendy, but during a shoot I'm trying to work (paid or not) at that time I dont care whats going on in your life, your bf, mother or anything else. Anything beyond meaningless small talk or talking about the shoot is just an unneccessary distraction. We can get coffee later and talk, now work. Cell phone where created by the machine to keep us from waking up out of the matrix,this sounds weird but i leave mine on and insist their's is off. But I will only answer mine if it is a business call (due to scheduling I usually do several shoot in a short period of time). Stoned, Drunk, or otherwise incompasitated go home will i spend this time writing yo a bad review. I stay sober for the shoot u should too. (on occaision I will have an open bottle of red on a TFP shoot, but I dont touch it till we are down). have fun Mar 03 06 05:16 pm Link Jenny Amber wrote: I think the truth in this goes largely overlooked. Mar 03 06 05:32 pm Link Jay Bowman wrote: thats right....I have been on a few shoots where I had to make the model look older (she or he wasnt paired properly) it isn't always pretty but if thats what the shoot calls for, thats what we do. Mar 03 06 05:40 pm Link Mary wrote: I could'nt agree more. i am SQUARELY with Mary & III on this. I know SQUAT about make-up and use people who have performed well in the past. I do know about photography and I am AWARE that if I don't meet or exceed expectations- I will definitely be replaced. Mary is right. The public has a short attention span. When a certain model is EVERYWHERE and then behaves badly. The public soon tires of her. Fashion survived Cindy Crawford being a Mom! Mar 03 06 05:53 pm Link MartinCoatesIV wrote: Actually, it isn't just you. I overlooked that in the OP. Mar 03 06 06:02 pm Link Mary wrote: i treat everyone on my set as if they are of this caliber. if you choose to work with people beneath this caliber, or treat people any less respectably, that is your own prerogative. so, maybe we disagree because we come from differing perspectives. Mar 03 06 07:01 pm Link craig wrote: Totally!! Different persepctives and different mind-sets...and if that is different all else could not be the equal!! If you know what I mean!? (not you Craig, of course) Mar 03 06 07:06 pm Link lll wrote: leo, re-read my post. i never said models deserved 'the most' respect. i said 'utmost' respect. if you go back through the thread, which incidentally was told by the OP to ignore the very make-up problem that derailed it, you will find that some model-bashing was taking place. i merely stepped in to defend them. they are not props, they are talent. a great model can make or break your shoot. yes, so can a great make-up/hair/wardrobe stylist. but, ultimately, it is the talent that pays the bills. it is the talent in front of the camera that people pay to see. how many people outside of this thread know who collier, or gucci westman or kevyn aucoin (r.i.p.) are? that's right, nobody. i am not saying their talent is worthless, i am saying their talent is worth less. look at the pay checks. models=most. and, my point is that they have every right to question or comment on the make-up, hair and wardrobe stylist's work. it is their face that is ultimately under the closest scrutiny. Mar 03 06 07:10 pm Link Most of the big-time models don't have behavior issues because the clients that invest all that money to build a brand around them insure that they perform (via stringent casting requirements, background checks, and contracts). Almost anyone can be made a supermodel for some campaign somewhere. But, any client putting out the supermodel salary and the millions of dollars in advertising money to make it real, does a thorough risk assessment to make sure that they are dealing with someone they can easily work with. Sure, there are lots of stories about bitchy supermodels, but those are often the mistakes of bad casting and hiring practices. - And those clients often figure out ways to prematurely segue their campaigns into an alternate image. But I do agree that once a model is selected to do a campaign, they are often irreplaceable when it comes to the investment made in building associative brand awareness. Now scale this concept down to the average client just trying to run a moderate ad campaign or clothing catalog. .The model is often just a piece of furniture to hang their product on. If it misbehaves, than he/she is not very useful. I remember several years ago working with Venus Swimwear as a consultant and was so impressed by the director's stable of models. They were all such nice people. I got into a conversation with the director about it and he basically told me that they have a "0" tollerance rule for people who can't get along well with the stylists and photogs. Some of their models at the time had been working for them for more than ten years. Mar 03 06 07:12 pm Link Mary wrote: mary, i realize i am stating the obvious here: but, have you seen EDITED body? Mar 03 06 07:16 pm Link Wow, this is all quite a shock to me that models would be this impolite to the people who are giving up their time and money in order to shoot them, whether it be a test shoot or not. No model should ever tell a MUA that they don't like how they applied the make-up. Just keep your mouth shut if you don't like it. That's why you have make-up remover at home, to take it off and whine to yourself about how you didn't like it! While you're at the shoot, things are done the photograhper's way, along with anyone else working with him/her. And about the models being on their cell phones, that's just rude. Turn your phone off or better yet, don't bring it with you. I doubt that any personal call is that important that you have to jump up and answer it. This is terrible. I hope that models, professional or not, that have ever done this never get hired, especially not paid, again. Apparently they haven't developed manners yet and aren't ready to be professionals. Mar 03 06 07:18 pm Link I am sorry I ever said anything on this thread at all. And can't believe on what some people said either... That is my last word on the subject!!! Peace, â Mar 03 06 07:19 pm Link Lynn wrote: absolutely. but i guarantee you i could make an amazing picture with gisele and no vanities, before i could half of the models at one model place paired with all of the $4,000 for 8 stylists you can find in new york city. Lynn wrote: of course. but, who sells more tickets to the movie? charlie kaufman's name in the credits? or michel gondry's? or, is it jim carey? talent gets paid the most, ergo talent is more valuable. models are talent. Mar 03 06 07:28 pm Link i've said enough on the subject. good weekend to all. xoc Mar 03 06 07:39 pm Link craig wrote: Sir, why don't you go back and read my reply...I wasn't directing my comment to anyone but to the models who have very bad behavior. Mar 03 06 07:51 pm Link craig wrote: I assume we do come from different perspectives, I work with pros and I'm not a tfp or testing artist, So I rarely run accross models with an attitude. I am paid well and so are the models I work with, that usually means the models come from very good agencies and they are pros. So my perspective is from a professional one, I work full time on commercial print jobs.....I'm not sure about you and a few models here, but thats where I come from. Mar 03 06 08:06 pm Link Craig (great book, by the way), I was not disagreeing with you at all. All I said was that people should know their boundaries and understand what they are bringing to the production. They should all trust others' expertise and behave as such. Models who have worked with me know I baby them to death, but they also know where the lines are drawn.  I don't think what happened was "model bashing", it was "aspirant diva bashing", which I agree with. I don't agree with model bashing, because a real-life professional models would not misbehave, like Jay said (Hi Jay, nice talking to you the other day); one call to the agency they would be unsigned on the spot. I reserve the word "model" for the real, true professionals, not some random internet diva. You can say that since I hold that word to a much higher standard, I give it the utmost respect; and I do. Modeling is the least technical craft in a creative process, unlike trained actors/actresses/dancers/singers (which I am accomplished in two of those categories), makeup artists and photographers, who have gone through years of training, pain and suffering to achieve their crafts. This unfortunately makes models the most easily replaceable entity in the team. Performance artists last, models don't. The moment the younger, newer and prettier ones come around, the older ones are replaced, without a second look. And the public forgets them. One of the local agency owners grooms her girls after she signs them. The first thing she tells them is that they are "the most easily removed person on the set, just look on the wall (with all the compcards) for your replacements; be respectful to everyone you work with, don't complain, enjoying being dolled by the best and have a good time being a model". The girls from that agency are the best I have to work with in the city (ok, we are small here in Seattle), and the results always look the best. Many of them become very good friends, too, they are all so incredibly sweet I love them to pieces. ** And no, Elisaveta, this is NOT directed at you! I have heard enough great things about ya! ** ** Ick, is this TFP only? I only test with agency models, so I guess I don't belong here either, oops! ** Mar 03 06 08:07 pm Link |
Let's face it! Like Craig said it ~ if the model doesn't FEEL BEAUTIFUL, she is NOT going to LOOK BEAUTIFUL!!! Period. 
