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Jerry Bennett

Posts: 2223

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US

My favorite conservative slices and dices the "rosy" economy.....



A Nation Polarized Between Rich and Poor
America's Bleak Jobs Future
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

On February 20 Forbes.com told its readers with a straight face that "the American job-generation machine rolls on. The economy will create 19 million new payroll jobs in the decade to 2014." Forbes took its information from the 10-year jobs projections from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, US Department of Labor, released last December.

If the job growth of the past half-decade is a guide, the forecast of 19 million new jobs is optimistic, to say the least. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics payroll jobs data, from January 2001 - January 2006 the US economy created 1,054,000 net new private sector jobs and 1,039,000 net new government jobs for a total five-year figure of 2,093,000. How does the US Department of Labor get from 2 million jobs in five years to 19 million in ten years?

I cannot answer that question.

However, the jobs record for the past five years tells a clear story. The BLS payroll jobs data contradict the hype from business organizations, such as the US Chamber of Commerce, and from "studies" financed by outsourcing corporations that offshore jobs outsourcing is good for America. Large corporations, which have individually dismissed thousands of their US employees and replaced them with foreigners, claim that jobs outsourcing allows them to save money that can be used to hire more Americans. The corporations and the business organizations are very successful in placing this disinformation in the media. The lie is repeated everywhere and has become a mantra among no-think economists and politicians. However, no sign of these jobs can be found in the payroll jobs data. But there is abundant evidence of the lost American jobs.

Information technology workers and computer software engineers have been especially heavily hit by offshore jobs outsourcing. During the past five years (Jan 01 - Jan 06), the information sector of the US economy lost 645,000 jobs or 17.4% of its work force. Computer systems design and related lost 116,000 jobs or 8.7% of its work force. Clearly, jobs outsourcing is not creating jobs in computer engineering and information technology. Indeed, jobs outsourcing is not even creating jobs in related fields.

For the past five years US job growth was limited to these four areas: education and health services, state and local government, leisure and hospitality, financial services. There was no US job growth outside these four areas of domestic nontradable services.

Oracle, for example, which has been handing out thousands of pink slips, has recently announced two thousand more jobs being moved to India. How is Oracle's move of US jobs to India creating jobs in the US for waitresses and bartenders, hospital orderlies, state and local government and credit agencies, the only areas of job growth?

Engineering jobs in general are in decline, because the manufacturing sectors that employ engineers are in decline. During the last five years, the US work force lost 1.2 million jobs in the manufacture of machinery, computers, electronics, semiconductors, communication equipment, electrical equipment, motor vehicles and transportation equipment. The BLS payroll job numbers show a total of 70,000 jobs created in all fields of architecture and engineering, including clerical personal, over the past five years. That comes to a mere 14,000 jobs per year (including clerical workers). What is the annual graduating class in engineering and architecture? How is there a shortage of engineers when more graduate than can be employed?

Of course, many new graduates take jobs opened by retirements. We would have to know the retirement rates to get a solid handle on the fate of new graduates. But it cannot be very pleasant, with declining employment in the manufacturing sectors that employ engineers and a minimum of 65,000 H-1B visas annually for foreigners plus an indeterminate number of L-1 visas.

It is not only the Bush regime that bases its policies on lies. Not content with outsourcing Americans' jobs, corporations want to fill the remaining jobs in America with foreigners on work visas. Business organizations lie about a shortage of engineers, scientists and even nurses. Business organizations have successfully used pubic relations firms and bought-and-paid-for "economic studies" to convince policymakers that American business cannot function without H-1B visas that permit the importation of indentured employees from abroad who are paid less than the going US salaries. The so-called shortage is, in fact, a replacement of American employees with foreign employees, with the soon-to-be-discharged American employee first required to train his replacement.

It is amazing to see free-market economists rush to the defense of H-1B visas. The visas are nothing but a subsidy to US companies at the expense of US citizens.

Keep in mind this subsidy to US corporations for employing foreign workers in place of Americans as we examine the Labor Department's projections of the ten fastest growing US occupations over the 2004-2014 decade.

All of the occupations with the largest projected employment growth (in terms of the number of jobs) over the next decade are in nontradable domestic services. The top ten sources of the most jobs in "superpower" America are: retail salespersons, registered nurses, postsecondary teachers, customer service representatives, janitors and cleaners, waiters and waitresses, food preparation (includes fast food), home health aides, nursing aides, orderlies and attendants, general and operations managers. Note than none of this projected employment growth will contribute one nickel toward producing goods and services that could be exported to help close the massive US trade deficit. Note, also, that few of these jobs classifications require a college education.

Among the fastest growing occupations (in terms of rate of growth), seven of the ten are in health care and social assistance. The three remaining fields are: network systems and data analysis with 126,000 jobs projected or 12,600 per year; computer software engineering applications with 222,000 jobs projected or 22,200 per year, and computer software engineering systems software with 146,000 jobs projected or 14,600 per year.

Assuming these projections are realized, how many of the computer engineering and network systems jobs will go to Americans? Not many, considering the 65,000 H-1B visas each year (650,000 over the decade) and the loss during the past five years of 761,000 jobs in the information sector and computer systems design and related.

Judging from its ten-year jobs projections, the US Department of Labor does not expect to see any significant high-tech job growth in the US. The knowledge jobs are being outsourced even more rapidly than the manufacturing jobs were. The so-called "new economy" was just another hoax perpetrated on the American people.

If offshore jobs outsourcing is good for US employment, why won't the US Department of Commerce release the 200-page, $335,000 study of the impact of the offshoring of US high-tech jobs? Republican political appointees reduced the 200-page report to 12 pages of public relations hype and refuse to allow the Technology Administration experts who wrote the report to testify before Congress. Democrats on the House Science Committee are unable to pry the study out of the hands of Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez. Obviously, the facts don't fit the Bush regime's globalization hype.

The only thing America has left is finance, and now that is moving abroad. On February 22 CNNMoney.com reported that America's large financial institutions are moving "large portions of their investment banking operations abroad." No longer limited to back-office work, offshoring is now killing American jobs in research and analytic operations, foreign exchange trades and highly complicated credit derivatives contracts. Deal-making responsibility itself may eventually move abroad. Deloitte Touche says that the financial services industry will move 20 percent of its total costs base offshore by the end of 2010. As the costs are lower in India, that will represent more than 20 percent of the business. A job on Wall St is a declining option for bright young persons with high stress tolerance.

The BLS payroll data that we have been examining tracks employment by industry classification. This is not the same thing as occupational classification. For example, companies in almost every industry and area of business employ people in computer-related occupations. A recent study from the Association for Computing Machinery claims:
"Despite all the publicity in the United States about jobs being lost to India and China, the size of the IT employment market in the United States today is higher than it was at the height of the dot.com boom. Information technology appears as though it will be a
growth area at least for the coming decade."

We can check this claim by turning to the BLS Occupational Employment Statistics. We will look at "computer and mathematical employment" and "architecture and engineering employment."

Computer and mathematical employment includes such fields as "software engineers applications," "software engineers systems software," "computer programers," "network systems and data communications," and "mathematicians." Has this occupation been a source of job growth?

In November of 2000 this occupation employed 2,932,810 people. In November of 2004 (the latest data available), this occupation employed 2,932,790, or 20 people fewer. Employment in this field has been stagnant for the past four years.

During these four years, there have been employment shifts within the various fields of this occupation. For example, employment of computer programmers declined by 134,630, while employment of software engineers applications rose by 65,080, and employment of software engineers systems software rose by 59,600. (These shifts might merely reflect change in job or occupation title from programmer to software engineer.)

These figures do not tell us whether any gain in software engineering jobs went to Americans. According to Professor Norm Matloff, in 2002 there were 463,000 computer-related H-1B visa holders in the US.
Similarly, the 134,630 lost computer programming jobs (if not merely a job title change) may have been outsourced offshore to foreign affiliates.

Architecture and engineering employment includes all the architecture and engineering fields except software engineering. The total employment of architects and engineers in the US declined by 120,700 between November 1999 and November 2004. Employment declined by 189,940 between November 2000 and November 2004, and by 103,390 between November 2001 and November 2004.

There are variations among fields. Between November 2000 and November 2004, for example, US employment of electrical engineers fell by 15,280. Employment of computer hardware engineers rose by 15,990 (possibly these are job title reclassifications). Overall, however, over 100,000 engineering jobs were lost. We do not know how many of the lost jobs were outsourced offshore to foreign affiliates or how many of any increase in computer hardware jobs went to foreign holders of H-1B or L-1 visas.

Clearly, engineering and computer-related employment in the US has not been growing, whether measured by industry or by occupation.
Moreover, with a half million or more foreigners in the US on work visas, the overall employment numbers do not represent employment of Americans. Perhaps what corporations and "studies" mean when they claim offshore outsourcing increases US employment is that the contacts companies make abroad allow them to bring in more foreigners on work visas to displace their American employees.

American employees have been abandoned by American corporations and by their representatives in Congress. America remains a land of opportunity--but for foreigners--not for the native born. A country whose work force is concentrated in domestic nontradable services has no need for scientists and engineers and no need for universities.
Even the projected jobs in nursing and school teachers can be filled by foreigners on H-1B visas.

In the US the myth has been firmly established that the jobs that the US is outsourcing offshore are being replaced with better jobs.
There is no sign of these jobs in the payroll jobs data or in the occupational statistics. Myself and others have pointed out that when a country loses entry level jobs, it has no one to promote to senior level jobs. We have also pointed out that when manufacturing leaves, so does engineering, design, research and development, and innovation itself.

On February 16 the New York Times reported on a new study presented to the National Academies that concludes that outsourcing is climbing the skills ladder. A survey of 200 multinational corporations representing 15 industries in the US and Europe found that 38 percent planned to change substantially the worldwide distribution of their research and development work, sending it to India and China. According to the New York Times, "More companies in the survey said they planned to decrease research and development employment in the United States and Europe than planned to increase employment."

The study and discussion it provoked came to untenable remedies. Many believe that a primary reason for the shift of R&D to India and China is the erosion of scientific prowess in the US due to lack of math and science proficiency of American students and their reluctance to pursue careers in science and engineering. This belief begs the question why students would chase after careers that are being outsourced abroad.

The main author of the study, Georgia Tech professor Marie Thursby, believes that American science and engineering depend on having "an environment that fosters the development of a high-quality work force and productive collaboration between corporations and universities."
The Dean of Engineering at the University of California, Berkeley, thinks the answer is to recruit the top people in China and India and bring them to Berkeley. No one seems to understand that research, development, design, and innovation take place in countries where things are made. The loss of manufacturing means ultimately the loss of engineering and science. The newest plants embody the latest technology. If these plants are abroad, that is where the cutting edge resides.

The United States is the first country in history to destroy the prospects and living standards of its labor force. It is amazing to watch freedom-loving libertarians and free-market economists serve as full time apologists for the dismantling of the ladders of upward mobility that made the America of old an opportunity society.

America has begun a polarization into rich and poor. The resulting political instability and social strife will be terrible.

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.

Mar 07 06 11:07 am Link

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BeccaNDSouth

Posts: 1670

Olympia, Washington, US

Mike Cummings wrote:

Better than Clinton trading high technology for a campain contribution.

BTW being in 'Bama you should understand a hunting accident. Please limit yourself to real isues, you will look less foolish that way.

I wouldn't know the slightest about hunting. I have only been in this state for 3 years...unwantedly. We are just passing through, due to Uncle Sam....

Mar 07 06 11:08 am Link

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Stephen Dawson

Posts: 29259

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Whenever you are confused, just ask, "How is Halibuton making money?"

Mar 07 06 11:12 am Link

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qphotonyc

Posts: 15650

New York, New York, US

Jerry Bennett wrote:
"In November of 2000 this occupation employed 2,932,810 people. In November of 2004 (the latest data available), this occupation employed 2,932,790, or 20 people fewer. Employment in this field has been stagnant for the past four years."

that's gotta be a huge understatement.
i bet everybody here knows 20 people who used to work in that biz who don't anymore.
20 thousand is more believable, 100 thou even more so.

Mar 07 06 11:16 am Link

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qphotonyc

Posts: 15650

New York, New York, US

Mike Cummings wrote:

They are getting punished because they will not renouce the destruction of Israel. So yes this is how freedom and democracy work. We have no obligation to fund the enemy of our friend.

they voted for hamas by a large margin & iran is already stepping up to the plate to replace the withheld us funds and then some. if you want to back the admin no matter what and support israel 100% that's fine, just say so. but democracy is what just happened in the palestine elections and we're punishing them cuz we don't like the results. that's a fact.

Mar 07 06 11:23 am Link

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UnoMundo

Posts: 47532

Olympia, Washington, US

BeccaNDSouth wrote:

I wouldn't know the slightest about hunting. I have only been in this state for 3 years...unwantedly. We are just passing through, due to Uncle Sam....

Mike,
if your dog dies : Bill Clinton
your wife is having an affair : Bill Clinton

It is a weak argument when there are no facts to support your case. It is the fall back to 'we have no case'
campaign contributions: check the news from De Lay to Abramoff- greed and corruption.
We are led by the Pied Piper; going nowhere fast!

Mar 07 06 11:24 am Link

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Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

BeccaNDSouth wrote:

I wouldn't know the slightest about hunting. I have only been in this state for 3 years...unwantedly. We are just passing through, due to Uncle Sam....

Ok then let me explain. The man Cheney shot was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He messed up and almost got killed. Cheney messed up by not checking his line of fire. Both were at fault. Thank God it was a minor accident. In Texas hunting accidents do not have to be reported to the police, so no "cover up" there. While the accident allowed for some great jokes at the V.P.'s expense the whole thing is a non issue.

Mar 07 06 11:27 am Link

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BeccaNDSouth

Posts: 1670

Olympia, Washington, US

Mike Cummings wrote:

Ok then let me explain. The man Cheney shot was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He messed up and almost got killed. Cheney messed up by not checking his line of fire. Both were at fault. Thank God it was a minor accident. In Texas hunting accidents do not have to be reported to the police, so no "cover up" there. While the accident allowed for some great jokes at the V.P.'s expense the whole thing is a non issue.

Oh Lord, please spare me the lamen's terms. I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what happened. Your previous statement sounded simply like you were trying to say I was some sort of redneck or backwoods person, only for the fact that I live in Alabama. Just because one lives in a certain state or region that is often associated with ignorance or idiocracy, does not mean that the said person is as such, nor is originally from the area.

It's like the old saying goes: When you assume something, it makes an ass out of u and me....or something like that.

And come on, I'm female. Do you really think I care about hunting laws in any state? I get my meat from the grocery store. I don't go out and shoot it, or pull out my trusty bow and arrow.

What happened with Cheney and the lawyer was an accident, yes. You can not deny the fact that Cheney got away with it mostly for the fact that he IS the VP of the United States. If he were some no-named hunter who had happened to have shot the guy, then he would have atleast received a fine. Just because it is not required to report hunting accidents in Texas, does not mean that the person wouldn't have reported it.

It was a case of two acquantances out hunting, and one was letting his old age get the best of him. The lawyer was in the wrong also, simply for the fact that he probably shouldn't have been out hunting in the first place. They should have just gone golfing. I would have rather taken a concussion from a golf ball, then a gunshot to the head.

Mar 08 06 09:46 am Link

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Lance Nichols

Posts: 199

Markham, Ontario, Canada

Zunaphoto wrote:
Remember the scene in Ghostbusters, when they turned on Dan Aykroyds  unlicensed and untested nuclear device...and then Harold Ramis and Bill Murray inched away from him into the corner of the elevator?  That's how we Canadians are beginning to feel about the U.S., and the goddam elevator is just as small!!  There is no where to run...crap.  WHAT CAN WE DO????

Hide our heads in shame... because IF I recall correctly, way back when Fission power plants were all the rage, some of the best designs (for the time) were the Candu reactors, which WE sold to India, along with out last Aircraft Carrier, the Bonaventure (sp). So all the enriched uranium that India used to build it's bomb.... likely came from Canadian designed and built reactors.

Mar 08 06 10:25 am Link

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Lance Nichols

Posts: 199

Markham, Ontario, Canada

Mike Cummings wrote:

Sad part is you would let us. I was watching a show on the History Channel about a fantastic fighter airplane a Canadian company built. This plane was years ahead of it's time. Canadian Govt. killed the contract, had the prototype and molds destroyed and bought US planes. Why? You tell me.

Mike, that would be the AVRO Arrow, supersonic, high altitude fighter with computerized fire control and radar (electronic computer NOT Electomechanical) that could track multiple targets. The only other airframe that had similar computational abilities was the Apollo command modul, and it wasn't even on the drawing board yet. R&D was completed, planes flew. EVERYTHING was destroyed. Some parts have been slowly surfacing, a couple of the powerful Iroquois engines have been "found"... but the planes are gone.

Advantages the US got from this? Canada since then has purchased US built fighter jets, our Aerospace industry was gutted, with only Bombardier remaining, (LearJet amongst other products), and Canadian Engineers were free to participate in the greatest technological feat ever, placing man on the moon. That's right, Canadian Aerospace engineers were snapped up by NASA and the various subcontractors, and they never looked back thanks to the ruin brought to the industry by Diefenbaker.

Bit of an Arrow nut here - sorry to get off track on the thread....

Mar 08 06 10:37 am Link

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Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

BeccaNDSouth wrote:

Oh Lord, please spare me the lamen's terms. I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what happened. Your previous statement sounded simply like you were trying to say I was some sort of redneck or backwoods person, only for the fact that I live in Alabama. Just because one lives in a certain state or region that is often associated with ignorance or idiocracy, does not mean that the said person is as such, nor is originally from the area.

It's like the old saying goes: When you assume something, it makes an ass out of u and me....or something like that.

And come on, I'm female. Do you really think I care about hunting laws in any state? I get my meat from the grocery store. I don't go out and shoot it, or pull out my trusty bow and arrow.

What happened with Cheney and the lawyer was an accident, yes. You can not deny the fact that Cheney got away with it mostly for the fact that he IS the VP of the United States. If he were some no-named hunter who had happened to have shot the guy, then he would have atleast received a fine. Just because it is not required to report hunting accidents in Texas, does not mean that the person wouldn't have reported it.

It was a case of two acquantances out hunting, and one was letting his old age get the best of him. The lawyer was in the wrong also, simply for the fact that he probably shouldn't have been out hunting in the first place. They should have just gone golfing. I would have rather taken a concussion from a golf ball, then a gunshot to the head.

Never said you were an idiot, I said you did not know the law in Texas. If Dick Cheney would have been Bubba Cheney he would still have had no fine. It still would not have been reported unless the medical staff had an indication that there was foul play. So if not required, why would someone report it? Do you call the law everytime you cut yourself? Do you call the law everytime someone bumps into you? Like I said before, find a real issue to harp on. This is a non issue.

Mar 08 06 12:24 pm Link

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Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

Leaf in the Wind wrote:

Mike, that would be the AVRO Arrow, supersonic, high altitude fighter with computerized fire control and radar (electronic computer NOT Electomechanical) that could track multiple targets. The only other airframe that had similar computational abilities was the Apollo command modul, and it wasn't even on the drawing board yet. R&D was completed, planes flew. EVERYTHING was destroyed. Some parts have been slowly surfacing, a couple of the powerful Iroquois engines have been "found"... but the planes are gone.

Advantages the US got from this? Canada since then has purchased US built fighter jets, our Aerospace industry was gutted, with only Bombardier remaining, (LearJet amongst other products), and Canadian Engineers were free to participate in the greatest technological feat ever, placing man on the moon. That's right, Canadian Aerospace engineers were snapped up by NASA and the various subcontractors, and they never looked back thanks to the ruin brought to the industry by Diefenbaker.

Bit of an Arrow nut here - sorry to get off track on the thread....

Thanks, I had Arrow floating around my brain but the AVRO part was throwing me off.

I am still trying to figure out what Canada got out of the deal and why destroy EVERYTHING.

Mar 08 06 12:28 pm Link

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qphotonyc

Posts: 15650

New York, New York, US

i dunno about in texas, mike- but in many places (nyc 4 example) shootings *period* must be reported to the police. if it turns out there was no crime, or just an accident, then that's that. but it still has to be reported. the hospital would have to report it if you went or were taken there with a gsw. i suspect theres a similar law in texas since gsw's are frequently related to criminal acts and the police like to know about those...

Mar 08 06 12:42 pm Link

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Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

qphotonyc wrote:
i dunno about in texas, mike- but in many places (nyc 4 example) shootings *period* must be reported to the police. if it turns out there was no crime, or just an accident, then that's that. but it still has to be reported. the hospital would have to report it if you went or were taken there with a gsw. i suspect theres a similar law in texas since gsw's are frequently related to criminal acts and the police like to know about those...

I don't think that is the case in Texas. If it would have been all the liberal media would have screamed how some law was broken. The best they got out of this was that Cheney failed to buy the proper $7 stamp.

I think the way it is set up in Texas is the hospital personnel has to report suspected foul play. Just like child abuse, they don't have to report Johnny's bump on the head unless they think someone gave it to him.

What gets me is how much time was spent trying to find something nefarious about the shooting. There are real issues out there and this is not one of them. Besides I would rather go hunting with Cheney than go for a ride with Kennedy. (sorry saw that on a site and it cracked me up.. just had to use it)

Mar 08 06 01:16 pm Link

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qphotonyc

Posts: 15650

New York, New York, US

According to the Texas Health and Safety Code:
Section 161.041. MANDATORY REPORTING OF GUNSHOT WOUNDS:

    A physician who attends or treats, or who is requested to attend or treat, a bullet or gunshot wound, or the administrator, superintendent, or other person in charge of a hospital, sanitorium, or other institution in which a bullet or gunshot wound is attended or treated or in which the attention or treatment is requested, shall report the case at once to the law enforcement authority of the municipality or county in which the physician practices or in which the institution is located.



http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes … 161.00.htm

Mar 08 06 06:34 pm Link

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qphotonyc

Posts: 15650

New York, New York, US

Mike Cummings wrote:
I don't think that is the case in Texas. If it would have been all the liberal media would have screamed how some law was broken. The best they got out of this was that Cheney failed to buy the proper $7 stamp.

but you'll still believe it's a librul media ;-)

Mar 08 06 06:36 pm Link

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Lance Nichols

Posts: 199

Markham, Ontario, Canada

Mike Cummings wrote:
Thanks, I had Arrow floating around my brain but the AVRO part was throwing me off.

I am still trying to figure out what Canada got out of the deal and why destroy EVERYTHING.

Canadian historians are still trying to figure that one out too. If you ever figure it out, let us know, we will destroy all our history books and buy US ones. smile The official reason for the killing of the contract was cost overruns, closer to reality it is likely Diefenbaker was trying to hurt his political rivals. In the end, it's one of the only things he is know for, and not fondly.

AVRO (the company name) was originally the A.V. Roe company, and eventually got changed to AVRO.

Mar 08 06 07:00 pm Link

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Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

qphotonyc wrote:
According to the Texas Health and Safety Code:
Section 161.041. MANDATORY REPORTING OF GUNSHOT WOUNDS:

    A physician who attends or treats, or who is requested to attend or treat, a bullet or gunshot wound, or the administrator, superintendent, or other person in charge of a hospital, sanitorium, or other institution in which a bullet or gunshot wound is attended or treated or in which the attention or treatment is requested, shall report the case at once to the law enforcement authority of the municipality or county in which the physician practices or in which the institution is located.



http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes … 161.00.htm

Thank you, I did a quick look but was unable to find anything. I will lay odds that the Docs. did notify the cops or we would have heard about it.

Mar 09 06 12:17 pm Link

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Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

qphotonyc wrote:

but you'll still believe it's a librul media ;-)

I just know if the liberal media would have had a sniff of a story they would have jumped on it like dogs to a bone. Look how long they spent on a bogus memo after it was proved bogus.

Mar 09 06 12:19 pm Link

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Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

Leaf in the Wind wrote:

Canadian historians are still trying to figure that one out too. If you ever figure it out, let us know, we will destroy all our history books and buy US ones. smile The official reason for the killing of the contract was cost overruns, closer to reality it is likely Diefenbaker was trying to hurt his political rivals. In the end, it's one of the only things he is know for, and not fondly.

AVRO (the company name) was originally the A.V. Roe company, and eventually got changed to AVRO.

Cost overruns? If I remember right all the expensive stuff was done. The plane was molded and the lines retooled. Did they destroy the plans too? I can't remember.

Oh I think I see what the problem is, the man has THREE sylables in his name. That is no good. Two sylables is ok, one even better.

Mar 09 06 12:24 pm Link

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qphotonyc

Posts: 15650

New York, New York, US

Mike Cummings wrote:
I just know if the liberal media would have had a sniff of a story they would have jumped on it like dogs to a bone. Look how long they spent on a bogus memo after it was proved bogus.

maybe its cuz 'librul media' is a classic big lie, mike: when repeated often enuff people start to believe its true. a myth in other words.

you just claimed there must not be a  requirement in texas to notify the cops of a shooting or the lm would've made a major issue over it. when i showed you there is a requirement to notify the cops, you go on with that fantasy like you didn't just use it to make a point about the lm. so please explain: why wouldn't the lm make an issue out of it?

what we really have isnt a lib media, but  a lazy, corporate-owned media that just reports what they're told and has no appetite for investigating anything. "stenographers with amnesia" is a more accurate description than lm.

we have 2 all news am radio stations in nyc- but the same company owns both!

our nyc newspapers are the ws journal, the ny post, the daily news and the sun- all rw editoially. leaving what? the times?

tv news here is on nbc (until recently owned by general electric), fox (murdoch), abc (disney. formerly owned by capital cities founded by w casey of reagan admin), and cbs (owned by westinghouse b4 viacom), and cnn (time warner/aol). cbs and warner just bought upn and wb.

& that's it for the nyc media market.
but i'm sure the rest of the country is far more librul than here, haha.
especially florida, right?

Mar 09 06 10:18 pm Link

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Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

qphotonyc wrote:

maybe its cuz 'librul media' is a classic big lie, mike: when repeated often enuff people start to believe its true. a myth in other words.

you just claimed there must not be a  requirement in texas to notify the cops of a shooting or the lm would've made a major issue over it. when i showed you there is a requirement to notify the cops, you go on with that fantasy like you didn't just use it to make a point about the lm. so please explain: why wouldn't the lm make an issue out of it?

what we really have isnt a lib media, but  a lazy, corporate-owned media that just reports what they're told and has no appetite for investigating anything. "stenographers with amnesia" is a more accurate description than lm.

we have 2 all news am radio stations in nyc- but the same company owns both!

our nyc newspapers are the ws journal, the ny post, the daily news and the sun- all rw editoially. leaving what? the times?

tv news here is on nbc (until recently owned by general electric), fox (murdoch), abc (disney. formerly owned by capital cities founded by w casey of reagan admin), and cbs (owned by westinghouse b4 viacom), and cnn (time warner/aol). cbs and warner just bought upn and wb.

& that's it for the nyc media market.
but i'm sure the rest of the country is far more librul than here, haha.
especially florida, right?

Yes the "media" is liberal. Studies have proven it. (see below) Sorry but there is no myth to the liberal media claim. That's ok, reporters should be liberal, but thier stories should not be biased. I want a bleeding heart looking out for me. I don't want that bleeding heart to color his/her story. Like wise I don't listen to Rush for the same reason. I don't want half the story. I don't want half truths or shaded truths because they fit what I want to hear. I will agree with your "stenographers with amnesia" assesment. I will also add that the media plays favorites.

Yes, you found the law stating gun shot wounds had to be reported. I stand corrected. But don't blame me, I said that hunting accidents did not have to be reported because I read that from one of those dang liberal media outlets. Thanks AP.

Now according to the NY Times;
"The local sheriff, Ramon Salinas III of Kenedy County, said the Secret Service called him shortly after the shooting occurred.

Sheriff Salinas said he sent his chief deputy, Gilbert Sanmiguel, to the Armstrong Ranch that night. He said Mr. Sanmiguel interviewed Mr. Cheney and reported that the shooting was an accident.

The sheriff said Sunday that they had yet to speak to "the victim." "But you could say it's closed," Mr. Salinas said of the case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/polit … yt&emc=rss

But what I meant was the liberal media would have had a field day if any laws were broken. The conservative media would have just mentioned it in passing. The only thing that made this a "newsworthy" story is Cheney pulled the trigger.

Proof of liberal media:
http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664  Media study proving a liberal bent.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article … 2224.shtml  Covers the same study but gives the scores for different outlets.

Mar 10 06 05:19 am Link

Photographer

Lance Nichols

Posts: 199

Markham, Ontario, Canada

Mike Cummings wrote:
Cost overruns? If I remember right all the expensive stuff was done. The plane was molded and the lines retooled. Did they destroy the plans too? I can't remember.

Oh I think I see what the problem is, the man has THREE sylables in his name. That is no good. Two sylables is ok, one even better.

Yeap, official version was Deif said it cost too much, so he had them destroy the tooling, planes, plans, engines, aerodynamic models, EVERYTHING.

This plane outflow everything else in the skies, and that was before the powerful Iroquois engines were mounted on the airframe. There were rumoured to be orders on the books for substantial overseas contracts as well, and THAT might be the real sticking point too, at least for the US. Imagine having thier Aerospace industry smacked down by this Canadian plane...

Mar 10 06 06:14 am Link

Photographer

Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

Leaf in the Wind wrote:

Yeap, official version was Deif said it cost too much, so he had them destroy the tooling, planes, plans, engines, aerodynamic models, EVERYTHING.

This plane outflow everything else in the skies, and that was before the powerful Iroquois engines were mounted on the airframe. There were rumoured to be orders on the books for substantial overseas contracts as well, and THAT might be the real sticking point too, at least for the US. Imagine having thier Aerospace industry smacked down by this Canadian plane...

The show I saw on this plane said it was a good 10 years ahead of just about everything. Well it is "nice" to see the USA is not the only one with rat bastards.

Mar 10 06 11:57 am Link

Photographer

UnoMundo

Posts: 47532

Olympia, Washington, US

Mike Cummings wrote:

The show I saw on this plane said it was a good 10 years ahead of just about everything. Well it is "nice" to see the USA is not the only one with rat bastards.

Remember , we(USA) convinced the Canadians to give to a superior product and buy stuff from us.  Ah , I love Canadians, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell !
WE(again rat bastards #1) offered something to the Canadians. What was it?
Deif was too old to have hookers in his bed, so what was it?
I think we promised to keep Quebec in the Union!

Mar 10 06 12:02 pm Link

Photographer

Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

UnoMundo Photography wrote:

Remember , we(USA) convinced the Canadians to give to a superior product and buy stuff from us.  Ah , I love Canadians, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell !
WE(again rat bastards #1) offered something to the Canadians. What was it?
Deif was too old to have hookers in his bed, so what was it?
I think we promised to keep Quebec in the Union!

I think they got the better end of the deal. They kill a plane and we protect their country for "free". Now instead of funding a real military they can fund liberal social programs. Of course they have to take all the hippies we send them. Now that I look at it, maybe it is a fair trade.

Mar 10 06 12:23 pm Link

Photographer

Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

qphotonyc wrote:
maybe its cuz 'librul media' is a classic big lie, mike: when repeated often enuff people start to believe its true. a myth in other words.

you just claimed there must not be a  requirement in texas to notify the cops of a shooting or the lm would've made a major issue over it. when i showed you there is a requirement to notify the cops, you go on with that fantasy like you didn't just use it to make a point about the lm. so please explain: why wouldn't the lm make an issue out of it?

what we really have isnt a lib media, but  a lazy, corporate-owned media that just reports what they're told and has no appetite for investigating anything. "stenographers with amnesia" is a more accurate description than lm.

we have 2 all news am radio stations in nyc- but the same company owns both!

our nyc newspapers are the ws journal, the ny post, the daily news and the sun- all rw editoially. leaving what? the times?

tv news here is on nbc (until recently owned by general electric), fox (murdoch), abc (disney. formerly owned by capital cities founded by w casey of reagan admin), and cbs (owned by westinghouse b4 viacom), and cnn (time warner/aol). cbs and warner just bought upn and wb.

& that's it for the nyc media market.
but i'm sure the rest of the country is far more librul than here, haha.
especially florida, right?

Nope not liberal at all
https://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060302/i/r2741520107.jpg?x=227&y=345&sig=ohvuJxVQIdDvBmWSklww2Q--

Mar 10 06 12:27 pm Link

Photographer

Merlinpix

Posts: 7118

Farmingdale, New York, US

images by elahi wrote:
you voted for him....

Nope, not me!
He stole the first term..say is Jeb  up for the next presidential race?

Mar 10 06 05:24 pm Link

Photographer

UnoMundo

Posts: 47532

Olympia, Washington, US

Mike Cummings wrote:

I think they got the better end of the deal. They kill a plane and we protect their country for "free". Now instead of funding a real military they can fund liberal social programs. Of course they have to take all the hippies we send them. Now that I look at it, maybe it is a fair trade.

hey, I resent that. I spend a fair amount of time in Canada. I buy medicine there(seriously), cameras, lenses. NOw they send us some good ganja and gorgeous models.
William Shatner - want to  give him back?

Mar 10 06 06:01 pm Link

Photographer

Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

UnoMundo Photography wrote:

hey, I resent that. I spend a fair amount of time in Canada. I buy medicine there(seriously), cameras, lenses. NOw they send us some good ganja and gorgeous models.
William Shatner - want to  give him back?

Would they take him back?

Why do you think your drugs are so cheap? They can afford to suppliment the cost because they spend so little defending themselves.

Mar 11 06 05:31 am Link

Photographer

Tim Baker-fotoPerfecta

Posts: 9877

Portland, Oregon, US

Mike Cummings wrote:

I don't think that is the case in Texas. If it would have been all the liberal media would have screamed how some law was broken. The best they got out of this was that Cheney failed to buy the proper $7 stamp.

I think the way it is set up in Texas is the hospital personnel has to report suspected foul play. Just like child abuse, they don't have to report Johnny's bump on the head unless they think someone gave it to him.

What gets me is how much time was spent trying to find something nefarious about the shooting. There are real issues out there and this is not one of them. Besides I would rather go hunting with Cheney than go for a ride with Kennedy. (sorry saw that on a site and it cracked me up.. just had to use it)

Liberal media? I first heard about it on Foxnews.

Mar 11 06 05:42 am Link

Photographer

Mike Cummings

Posts: 5896

LAKE COMO, Florida, US

Tim Baker wrote:

Liberal media? I first heard about it on Foxnews.

They are "Fair and Balanced".... Why were you watching FoxNews? I don't even read their website.

Mar 11 06 05:46 am Link