|
Forums >
General Industry >
TFP and poor negoiating...
I recently commented to a fitness model, I liked her look and considering I was expanding my fitness portfolio if there was anything I could do for her ...let me know. She replied, she 'loved' my work and 'couldnt wait to work with me'. then said her rates were $100 per hour, needed edited images and all raw material... was this acceptable? Shocked, I said it wasnt acceptable and wished her luck after I suggested I wouldnt work for free let alone less than free... I was told my answer was harsh and not in the spirit of negoiation... Can anyone out ther tell me who is daffed here... I am new to this business but not business in general. I am not used to going to work and then having to pay for the privilege ... Jul 08 05 11:20 pm Link It sounds like your message to her was a little ambiguous so that's what led to the exchange. She was in the right to offer her rates and you were correct in declining to pay them. If you were willing to pay her something, then you probably were a little harsh. If not, then no big deal. In the future, if a model has a nice port, make sure you specify TFP in your initial message. Paul Jul 08 05 11:31 pm Link good reply Paul. upon reading how you worded your offer here Cameron, it does seem that you were offering TFP... Posted by Cameron Watson: so i think her response was a way of (not so subtly) letting you know although she likes your work, she wasn't interested in TFP. Jul 08 05 11:49 pm Link My favorites are the models that expect to be paid for the privilege of filling the member area on their paysites. Problem being, especially in the fitness industry, there are so many "schmotographers" (a GWC subspecie) that not only pay the models, they give them ALL of the images as well. Some of these girls need to learn that not everyone is a schmoe, and real photographers aren't walking talking ATMs. Jul 08 05 11:53 pm Link Posted by JHoward: you are so right. i get so sick of the models i pay to shoot asking me or better yet sometimnes even trying to demand they get copies of the pics. they change their minds quick when i tell them yes they can get every image, but they have to invest 50/50 with me on the shoot. then it's a different story... Jul 09 05 12:03 am Link Posted by Cameron Watson: Did you actually hint something negative about this model in your responce that triggered her to write back to say that your comments were harsh? Jul 09 05 12:53 am Link Luv, Cleveland, and Paul - awesome advice. I would add that in the spirit of "negotiation" there is usually more than one exchange (ie - You: I want to work with you for free. Her: Pay me and I want images.) what should have followed was "Hm. Well you can either have the images or the pay" and so on and so forth, that's negotiation. In other words, do NOT do this - You: I want to work with you for free. Her: That's nice. Pay me and I want images. You: Screw off. Her: Screw off. (Which is what it sounds like happened.) That isn't negotiation. That isn't professional Of course, if you're only interested in TFP/CD, and made that clear, be prepared for the model to say, "Thank you but no" or "Thank you but here are my rates". At which point you can say, "Sorry, only looking for TFP/CD" and find another model who will work TFP/CD Jul 09 05 12:59 am Link It sounds to me like she told you to "screw off" first, and when you told her to "screw off" back her "feelings" were suddely hurt. That is to say, she's used to GWCs and other subspeicies falling over themselves to give her whatever she wants. My bet is that she'll be calling you soon; when she does, make sure to give her YOUR rates. Jul 09 05 01:45 am Link I had implied TFP and was willing to do so...her demands to be paid plus receive all the raw images with edited prints caught me off guard. She asked the question if it was acceptable? I my response was no it wasn't acceptable, suggested why and wished her luck... the exchanges detriorated from there. I could have handled it differently and was perhaps a little harsh... but its hard not be bothered by comments like "have you even considered I would allow you use my image in your port?" I have been paid by some fabulous models to help with their portfolios and they are so graceous and flattered to have some of the at work displayed or carried in my portfolio... In my other life, with years of customer service experience, I have never come accross anything like this business. i guess I just need to get used to less than famous 'models' wanting the star treatment and somehow believe they are doing the photographer a favour by expecting to be paid, have all services supplied and then giving up all the goods to... TFP did wonders for me early on and I still enjoy doing it when the circumstance right. but my paying clients are still by far the easiest to deal with... Jul 09 05 07:53 am Link Thank you all for your perspectives here... I have learned much thus far especially in my choice of words... forums, shout boxes, announcements, email, msn, yahoo etc combined with my horrible typing skills have made me lazy sometimes and I dont write what i would say if it were a real conversation... it gives me something to think about. Jul 09 05 07:56 am Link Hmmmm. If I get paid...I don't expect copyright or even any photos...I may ask if the photographer wants to send me one or two web sized images to post. If I am doing TFP, I work individually with each artist, keeping in mind that it is an exchange of talents and neither one of us could create art without the other...that is why I am extremely selective about TFP's. Jul 09 05 08:01 am Link The problem with scenarios like this is that they can turn into smear campaigns against you down the road. "Oh I tried to work with so-and-so but he's a jerk..." If you do try to work with someone and she refuses on the grounds of your "reputation" then dig a little deeper to find out why. Jul 09 05 08:08 am Link I wouldn't let anyone else have access to, much less control over, my raw work. I want to show good work, and every photographer has bad images. It's like an editor telling a writer that he can never cross out a sentence. As for the $100: if you pay, what you're normally paying her for is the waiving of most or all rights. Jul 09 05 08:23 am Link I am not interested in letting anyone have my raw work either. When I started and not understanding TFP I gave away all the images... some have appeared unedited and is ... well less than pleasing! Jul 09 05 09:48 am Link You know, when you pay a model, you have FULL control of the images. So she has no rights to them unless you grant them. I think some of you all tend to forget that. Jul 09 05 01:22 pm Link Even when I TFCD, which I do alot- if I'm into the model, I only give no more than 10 images that I have corrected, edited and tagged. I learned the hard way how clueless some models are about editing, color correcting and overall presenting their/my work. Jul 09 05 01:38 pm Link Posted by BarryH: Like the fat girl showing her snatch? Let's be serious. Jul 09 05 01:45 pm Link Posted by Paul Ferrara: Posted by BarryH: Like the fat girl showing her snatch? Let's be serious. Way to go...flame on Human Torch! Keep those negative vibes flowing! Jul 09 05 01:49 pm Link Posted by Paul Ferrara: Posted by BarryH: Like the fat girl showing her snatch? Let's be serious. HAHAHA!! Stop it, you're killing me! HAHAHA!!! Jul 09 05 01:49 pm Link I love fat girls and I love snatch. Jul 09 05 01:50 pm Link Posted by Cameron Watson: I, too, am often blown away by the nerve and arrogance of some of these models, many of whom have been spoiled by horny, lecherous, GWC's. Is there all that much difference between the photography that many of them do and spending wads of money on the pole girls in the titty bars? Jul 09 05 02:03 pm Link Alot of this can be avoided although most people naturally just presume what they want if the information isn't there to read. Even though Cameron's wording may sound like a TFP offer you can't presume the model can read his thoughts. Many misread what's typed or misunderstand it if it isn't spelled out for them. In turn this miscommunication can lead to someone being insulted and that's when the tempers flare. When that occurs you now have someone out there who is going to talk you down to others, just human nature. To avoid this it's always best to convey the terms of what you're offering. There was probably a good chance this could have ended better than it did. You aren't daffed, lol. It's just part of learning from your mistakes. Jul 09 05 02:42 pm Link Posted by BarryH: sorry dude, she has no automatic "rights" to the images whether youpay her or not. The photographer owns the copyright from the moment that shutter is pushed. He/She can only "give away" - like a moron - those rights. We've had a few hundred posts on this subject Jul 09 05 02:54 pm Link Posted by vanscottie: Posted by BarryH: sorry dude, she has no automatic "rights" to the images whether youpay her or not. The photographer owns the copyright from the moment that shutter is pushed. He/She can only "give away" - like a moron - those rights. We've had a few hundred posts on this subject While a model does not have copyrights or usage rights for the images, she still has other rights. Jul 09 05 02:59 pm Link Posted by theda: Posted by vanscottie: Posted by BarryH: sorry dude, she has no automatic "rights" to the images whether youpay her or not. The photographer owns the copyright from the moment that shutter is pushed. He/She can only "give away" - like a moron - those rights. We've had a few hundred posts on this subject While a model does not have copyrights or usage rights for the images, she still has other rights. Of course she does. Most companies would require a model release of some sort before they buy an image from a photographer. Jul 09 05 03:08 pm Link Posted by Paul Ferrara: Posted by BarryH: Like the fat girl showing her snatch? Let's be serious. I feel sorry for you if: Jul 09 05 07:32 pm Link Posted by Cameron Watson: Switch "model" and "photographer": Jul 10 05 12:46 am Link I think what would have been a better response by her, "Though I love your work and would enjoy working with you, there's enough demand for my time that I only do paid shoots." Jul 10 05 03:43 am Link Posted by Cameron Watson: If a deal is not acceptable, negotiate for a better deal. That's business in general. Jul 10 05 03:51 am Link Posted by Herb Way: For a $100, I can get alot more than just watching strippers dancing on poles. Jul 10 05 04:58 am Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Posted by Herb Way: For a $100, I can get alot more than just watching strippers dancing on poles. LOL Jul 10 05 09:28 am Link Well, what a roller coaster this has been... I should have had the chance to dialogue like this when I started... My career as a photographer is a mere 18 mos old... I have had five years of education and several years of laughter from this thread alone! Jul 10 05 04:04 pm Link are TFP's typically not a paid shoot? Or how does it work usually?. Sorry if I restated a general question, but I was asked about doing one, and just curious about the dynamics of it. Jul 10 05 08:43 pm Link Posted by ToddC: Here's an article describing it all. newmodels.com explains a lot. Jul 10 05 08:46 pm Link Posted by Brian Diaz: Posted by ToddC: Here's an article describing it all. newmodels.com explains a lot. great link! very useful info, laid out in simple language. Jul 10 05 08:57 pm Link awesome thanks!. I guess i was surprised that i was contacted at all about that. seeing as how i have such basic photos and never have really done shoots with a serious intention. i'm very curious about it though. it could be a nice little hobby to pick up. Jul 11 05 03:21 am Link If you're paying a model to pose for you, you don't owe him/her anything except his/her fee. Of course, all consideration should be carefully detailed in the release. If they want prints from the shoot, you should charge for the prints. If it's a commercial shoot, then, as a courtesy, you could always provide the model a tearsheet. Jul 11 05 03:02 pm Link If you're paying a model to shoot with you, wyou don't owe that model anything you didn't agree to before hand. In fact, if you're not paying a model to shoot with you, you still don't owe that model anything you didn't agree to before hand. Jul 12 05 02:14 am Link Posted by Sara Green: Posted by Cameron Watson: Switch "model" and "photographer": Well put, Sara. It is a business, and while whe love creating beautiful images, we (photographers, models, MUAs etc) have to feed ourselves like the rest of the world. To find a mutually convenient agreement among us can be tricky. Jul 14 05 12:35 am Link Posted by Monsante Bey: When I was 1st starting out with TFCD's I didn't know what I was doing. The photographer totally took me for granted because I was new and had only amateur photo's for my portfolio on OMP. He did semi-nude and nude TFCD mostly all nudes because he said oh because of the lighting I have to do the nudes 1st. I didn't get a cd for over a month and most of the images were just emailed to me and were not on the cd. The copyright with all my TFP's has been 50/50. Now I get paid shoot's and I am told never to do a TFP shoot for nudes. Through trial and error I have had to learn.... so when I started getting paid I just assumed that you get the images too, my mistake. Each photographer is different.I did a shoot for Military Stock Photo and I got paid and got a CD so I think it is individual, based on the model and the photographer and the picture style,use and agreement. Jul 14 05 12:58 am Link |
