Brightonn wrote:
That's an interesting approach.  Do you find it hard to enforce?

There really is no enforcing those things, but traveling models talk to one another and people who hire them know that.


But to address your OP, I understand it's at least double if not triple your money spent to go somewhere, to guard against cancellations putting you in the hole.
Or, someone buying your tickets in exchange for trade shoots.

Brightonn wrote:
That's an interesting approach.  Do you find it hard to enforce?

Depends. Some people have been easy to deal with about it. Others have been dicks. I had a guy in NYC cancel on my twice, and he paid it no problem.
Today,  I had some guy cancel on me and he is refusing because "he didn't agree to that," even though I am very clear about that policy.

It can be a pain in the ass, sometimes. But it's all about whether or not it is worth the hassle to you.

Brightonn wrote:
Photographers can certainly give input about whether they would risk a deposit with a model that has been shooting about 7 years and is also a trained photographer so can at least approach the situation with empathy.

I'm unlikely to pay deposits.  I am empathic with models who spend their time and money to travel and risk getting shafted.

The problem is I already have problems with models canceling last minute.   Why should I risk loosing the shoot and also risk loosing a deposit?   Why should I cover the risk the model has of me canceling, and still retain all the risk I have of the model canceling?   

If I get to the point where I'm paying a notable rate and a deposit, I think it would make more sense for me to hire a model through an agency.   Less chance of cancelation and much less risk of loosing a deposit.

GM Photography wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but I would never pay a traveling model a deposit.  I certainly understand why they would want one.  I won't book a paid shoot without a deposit.

That's some ass backwards shit. Seriously.

I understand a photographer wanting a deposit on a paid shoot. Sure. I don't mind paying one. But saying, essentially, that you deserve one and we don't is pretty fucking sad.

I'm usually pretty lax about my cancellation fee/deposits, but hell, just today I got fucked over for $225 by some guy who just decided he didn't want to shoot, claiming it isn't his work posted OR his MM, regardless of the fact that we had confirmed just last night. Deposit could have just totally saved my ass right there. Would have been nice.

Nicolette wrote:
That's some ass backwards shit. Seriously.

I understand a photographer wanting a deposit on a paid shoot. Sure. I don't mind paying one. But saying, essentially, that you deserve one and we don't is pretty fucking sad.

It is and isn't.

He makes a valid point.  He has a registered business, with a registered address and insurance.  Do you?

If you don't then his argument makes complete sense, if you do then you are a very small portion of models, and his argument is moot.

It is the same reason most would have no issues paying an agency in advance.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

It is and isn't.

He makes a valid point.  He is a registered business, with a registered address and insurance.  Are you?

If you aren't then his argument makes complete sense, if you are then you are a very small portion of models, and his argument is moot.

It is the same reason most would have no issues paying an agency in advance.

No, I am not a registered business; but I do have a registered address set up in my modeling alias that I use on paperwork, a "business address" if you will. I do not have insurance of any kind. However, there are many photographers who demand deposits and don't have those things either. Perhaps in his case, but even so. That's much like the whole "photographers deserve to be paid and models don't," argument. I believe both have the right to ask for deposits, but it's unfair to refuse one simply on the grounds of "Oh, you're a traveling model."

Nicolette wrote:
No, I am not a registered business; but I do have a registered address set up in my modeling alias that I use on paperwork, a "business address" if you will. I do not have insurance of any kind. However, there are many photographers who demand deposits and don't have those things either. Perhaps in his case, but even so. That's much like the whole "photographers deserve to be paid and models don't," argument. I believe both have the right to ask for deposits, but it's unfair to refuse one simply on the grounds of "Oh, you're a traveling model."

I'd refuse based on the fact that why would I give a deposit to a non-registered business, without any chance of recompense?  How am I supposed to trust you and your business if you don't trust enough to invest in making yourself a business with the proper procedures (insurance, etc) behind that?

If a sales man knocked on my door to sell me life insurance and demanded a deposit, but couldn't provide any proof of being a registered business entity I'm not going to give him a deposit either until I see the service/product.

I never said you don't have the right to ask, and I never said those photographers who aren't a business don't have a right to ask either, but that doesn't mean I would pay either of them.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

I'd refuse based on the fact that why would I give a deposit to a non-registered business, without any chance of recompense?  How am I supposed to trust you and your business if you don't trust enough to invest in making yourself a business with the proper procedures (insurance, etc) behind that?

If a sales man knocked on my door to sell me life insurance and demanded a deposit, but couldn't provide any proof of being a registered business entity I'm not going to give him a deposit either until I see the service/product.

Not all of us make enough money to even begin to do those things. Shit, I barely break even these days as it is. Besides, most traveling models take deposits via paypal. Paypal makes it pretty easy to get your money back. Just push the "refute" button and we lose it.
Just sayin'.

Nicolette wrote:
Not all of us make enough money to even begin to do those things. Shit, I barely break even these days as it is. Besides, most traveling models take deposits via paypal. Paypal makes it pretty easy to get your money back. Just push the "refute" button and we lose it.
Just sayin'.

This is exactly my point and in my opinion you've proven it.

Paying an upfront deposit is a show of faith on the other party's side, a show of faith that is done because there is reasonable expectation the other will deliver on the service agreed or recompense will be possible with damages in the case the service is not rendered.

Generally, this show of faith is possible due to comfort in the business that is asking has the funds/services to render the agreed upon services.

A traveling model who can barely break even, may run out of money and not make the trip, does not have insurance in-case of injury/death (where she may not be able to make the shoot, and there is no 3rd party to refund the money) and no proper business necessities in place, should not be asking for that.

Would anyone in their right mind pay a wedding photographer a deposit who didn't have a business, didn't have insurance, had no paperwork and had none of those proper things in place, especially when you do not even get to meet the photographer face-to-face before being asked, but only have internet contact with him/her?  No one in their right state of mind would, some people would, sure, but some people, also, fall for scams.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I'm unlikely to pay deposits.  I am empathic with models who spend their time and money to travel and risk getting shafted.

The problem is I already have problems with models canceling last minute.   Why should I risk loosing the shoot and also risk loosing a deposit?   Why should I cover the risk the model has of me canceling, and still retain all the risk I have of the model canceling?

This really hits the key issues for me...

While I completely understand the problem faced by traveling models-- risking their time/money to get to a shoot only to get stiffed-- I dont have a good solid suggestion, beyond being exceptionally careful about who they choose to work with... And I know that that doesnt necessarily work either.

But I wont be sending a deposit to anyone in a situation where I have no realistic chance of recovery in case they fail to show... It just doesnt make sense for me to do it, when I can simply move to a different model without the requirement.

ahhhh, if only folks actually did the things they said they were going to do.... none of this shit would even be necessary

MKPhoto wrote:
I would not have a problem with the deposit with models about whom I heard/participate in these forums or from personal reference. Otherwise...nope...

Don't be so sure of that. The no-show model I referred to in my earlier post is a regular participant in these forums. Had I paid a deposit I'd have wasted my money.

Brightonn wrote:
First off, really like to hear form full time or part time travelling models as I'd like to become one.  I recently did a traveling shoot and unbelievably had 2/3 photographers cancel on me.  I've talked to several photographers I'll be shooting with on my next shoot, and they were very willing to pay a deposit (probably via paypal as that is a tad more secure I believe) but I was just wondering:

Whats an acceptable amount is as I'm not trying to pay my tickets (train) completely with the deposit but just make sure that I don't receive any more cancellations? 

Photographers can certainly give input about whether they would risk a deposit with a model that has been shooting about 7 years and is also a trained photographer so can at least approach the situation with empathy.  I charge deposits when I'm travelling 4 hrs or more one way.

I don't think you're going to find too many people that will actually give you a deposit.  Having photographers flake on you is just part of this business as is having models flake on photographers.  Let's say I wanted to shoot with you and I agreed to give you a deposit.  If I hire a makeup artist and rent a studio for a shoot and then you flake, how am I protected.  I would still have to pay for the studio and the makeup artist and I would have nothing to show for it.  Just as you have suggested getting a deposit from photographers, there are photographers that have suggested getting a deposit from models.  The bottom line is that very few people are actually going to give money in advance to a total stranger.

CNP Photography wrote:
Don't be so sure of that. The no-show model I referred to in my earlier post is a regular participant in these forums. Had I paid a deposit I'd have wasted my money.

Somehow we trust more people whom we know or whom we think we know. or maybe I am gullible ;( But one must show some trust to people who are not completely anonymous.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

This is exactly my point and in my opinion you've proven it.

Paying an upfront deposit is a show of faith on the other party's side, a show of faith that is done because there is reasonable expectation the other will deliver on the service agreed or recompense will be possible with damages in the case the service is not rendered.

Generally, this show of faith is possible due to comfort in the business that is asking has the funds/services to render the agreed upon services.

A traveling model who can barely break even, may run out of money and not make the trip, does not have insurance in-case of injury/death (where she may not be able to make the shoot, and there is no 3rd party to refund the money) and no proper business necessities in place, should not be asking for that.

Would anyone in their right mind pay a wedding photographer a deposit who didn't have a business, didn't have insurance, had no paperwork and had none of those proper things in place, especially when you do not even get to meet the photographer face-to-face before being asked, but only have internet contact with him/her?  No one in their right state of mind would, some people would, sure, but some people, also, fall for scams.

When we can't make the trip, we refund the deposit. Simple as that. Some people just like to make things far more complicated than they should be.

Nicolette wrote:
When we can't make the trip, we refund the deposit. Simple as that. Some people just like to make things far more complicated than they should be.

You may do that, but not all models do, some models are dishonest, some have already spent the money because they misbudgeted.  Nor are all models trustworthy.  Refer to my previous posts about "trustworthy and proper procedures" that should be done before asking for such a thing.

You say I'm making it complicated, but yet you just want to demand money from me upfront when I don't know you from Adam.  You demand I do this as a safety precaution for you (to ensure you get some money), but you aren't willing to provide any safety precautions in return, such as insurance, proper business procedures, or a deposit for myself and my team (MUA, HS, etc). 

I don't call it complicated, I call it being cautious and running a business.

David Cajio Photography wrote:

You may do that, but not all models do, some models are dishonest, some have already spent the money because they misbudgeted.  Nor are all models trustworthy.  Refer to my previous posts about "trustworthy and proper procedures" that should be done before asking for such a thing.

You say I'm making it complicated, but yet you just want to demand money from me upfront when I don't know you from Adam.  You demand I do this as a safety precaution for you (to ensure you get some money), but you aren't willing to provide any safety precautions in return, such as insurance, proper business procedures, or a deposit for myself and my team (MUA, HS, etc). 

I don't call it complicated, I call it being cautious and running a business.

And if that works for you, then that works for you. Great. Awesome.

But saying models shouldn't get deposits but photographers should...

Nicolette wrote:

Not all of us make enough money to even begin to do those things. Shit, I barely break even these days as it is. Besides, most traveling models take deposits via paypal. Paypal makes it pretty easy to get your money back. Just push the "refute" button and we lose it.
Just sayin'.

That's exactly my point.  It costs about $15 for a business license here.  I have no idea what it costs in Columbus, OH, but I doubt it's much more. 

Your cavalier attitude about doing "business" and your argument that it "costs too much" as well as your own statement that you "barely break even" are all red flags and don't support your argument for getting paid in advance.

The insurance I have is about $700 a year, and a large portion of that is to insure my equipment.  As a "professional photographer" I can get "free" insurance from PPA as part of my $28/month membership fee, so I don't have to pay as much as I do to have some basic business insurance. 

Some models and photographers claim to be "professionals" because they get paid.  There are different definitions of what "professional" is.  I don't make a lot of money from photography, but I conduct myself professionally so that customers can do business with me with confidence. 

I have a real job that pays pretty well and real assets that I put at risk when I shoot "professionally" and as such I have taken precautions to protect both myself, my customers, and my reputation.  Most of the traveling models I have worked with conduct themselves with professionalism also, but they generally do not operate "legitimate" businesses. 

I said myself that you could call it a double standard, but there are significant differences between an internet traveling model and a professional photography business and valid reasons for not wanting to pay a deposit to someone you may never see or have any way of tracking down. 

I'm not hating on models at all, I really appreciate traveling models and have worked with some of the best, but what I'm saying is that from a practical standpoint, traveling models can ask for whatever they want, but if they are good "business people" they will understand what their target customers want and will accept as terms of doing business.  Most photographers will simply say "next" when they encounter a traveling model that asks for a deposit unless they are very well established and have sterling references. 

I work in private business and many companies won't even do business with us without proof of insurance and a number of checks to validate that our company is viable, let alone pay us in advance to reserve our services.  It is incumbent on us to be able to demonstrate our professionalism.  If we can't, we will lose out on opportunities.

The OP is someone that has never done traveling modeling and would be shooting herself in the foot by asking for deposits IMHO.

Nicolette wrote:
And if that works for you, then that works for you. Great. Awesome.

But saying models shouldn't get deposits but photographers should...

I never once said that.  Could you please quote where I said that?

My exact words were that anyone who runs proper business procedures can ask for those things, whether that be a model or a photographer, I even specifically mentioned paying an agency in advance, and not paying a photographer in advance if he didn't have his ducks in a row.

Nicolette wrote:

When we can't make the trip, we refund the deposit. Simple as that. Some people just like to make things far more complicated than they should be.

I don't find what he is saying "complicated"..... I happen to agree with him..... What I want to be clear on however, if one struck the word "model" from his commentary and replace it with the word "photographer" I would also agree with him.... NOBODY should be sending money to a Photographer (or model, or makeup artist or dancer or pianist or.....) who is unlicensed, UN-insured, and has no business address or assets.   I am personally aware of some disputes with a "workshop promoter/photographer" who, allegedly took deposits, then cancelled the workshop and then did not refund the money.  I am also aware of a travelling model a few years ago who took deposits and then kinda disappeared......

Digitoxin wrote:
I don't find what he is saying "complicated"..... I happen to agree with him..... What I want to be clear on however, if one struck the word "model" from his commentary and replace it with the word "photographer" I would also agree with him.... NOBODY should be sending money to a Photographer (or model, or makeup artist or dancer or pianist or.....) who is unlicensed, UN-insured, and has no business address or assets.   I am personally aware of some disputes with a "workshop promoter/photographer" who, allegedly took deposits, then cancelled the workshop and then did not refund the money.  I am also aware of a travelling model a few years ago who took deposits and then kinda disappeared......

I did mention photographers as well

I never said you don't have the right to ask, and I never said those photographers who aren't a business don't have a right to ask either, but that doesn't mean I would pay either of them.

Would anyone in their right mind pay a wedding photographer a deposit who didn't have a business, didn't have insurance, had no paperwork and had none of those proper things in place, especially when you do not even get to meet the photographer face-to-face before being asked, but only have internet contact with him/her?  No one in their right state of mind would, some people would, sure, but some people, also, fall for scams.

Nicolette wrote:
When we can't make the trip, we refund the deposit. Simple as that.

Some have reported they indeed have not received the deposit back.  Trying to recover a deposit from an independent internet model who lives some distance away is not simple as David has explained.

Nicolette wrote:
Some people just like to make things far more complicated than they should be.

Yes, those who wish a deposit are adding a complication.   Whenever I've worked with models, they show, model, and I pay them cash.   I see no need to complicate the issue by providing a deposit I may loose.  I'd rather pass in favor of the majority of models who do not feel they need such a complication.

Charge a deposit if you feel it's what you need to do.  I'm not faulting you or other models for doing so, but it's clear from threads like this that it is an additional complication many photographer will avoid.

Nicolette wrote:
That's some ass backwards shit. Seriously.

I understand a photographer wanting a deposit on a paid shoot. Sure. I don't mind paying one. But saying, essentially, that you deserve one and we don't is pretty fucking sad.

I'm usually pretty lax about my cancellation fee/deposits, but hell, just today I got fucked over for $225 by some guy who just decided he didn't want to shoot, claiming it isn't his work posted OR his MM, regardless of the fact that we had confirmed just last night. Deposit could have just totally saved my ass right there. Would have been nice.

Not sure how someone who has a business license, insurance, credit processing and handling, etc. would be ass backwards unless the traveling model does as well????

If I were to require a deposit on a shoot (mind you I don't hire models directly) my clients could easily reverse the charge should I default on the shoot for some reason however they choose to pay me.

You may be able to do something with deposits via a business account on PayPal, they would offer your clients some of those levels of protection.  I would also make sure you tell prospective clients about them (there are some cut and paste guaranteeing blurbs from PayPal or links you could send them).

Nicolette wrote:
When traveling, you should just expect that lots of people will flake on you. Some cities will be better than others, but in every place SOMEONE will do it. As far as an acceptable amount, that is all dependent on what you view as acceptable. I don't use deposits, I have cancellation fees. Mine is 50% for within a week and full for within 2 days.

Personally I'd be "I'm paying you for what?  Nothing?"  Ok, no hours times your normal rate equals zero.  I believe that if photographers did this to models there would be an outrage and he would be slammed here on MM.  Cancellations happen to people on both sides of the camera.  Models flake, photographers flake.  Do yourself a favor and either book multiple shoots or have a backup plan for being in that area like taking a vacation.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Enforcing a 100% deposit policy is difficult and rarely works unless you have people literally beating down your door to throw their money at you.

However, what you can do, is require a booking fee (that will count towards your shoot later) that absolutely holds their spot on your calendar, inform people who refuse to make a deposit that you'll still be happy to schedule with theme, but if someone willing to put down the deposit comes along and wants that persons day, they get bumped out of the spot for not putting a deposit down. People guaranteeing you money are first priority. They can either take a tentative date, or put down a deposit. The worst thing is holding open a peak day like Saturday and having that person cancel last minute, because everyone else has already filled their saturday and you're left sitting around twiddling your thumbs.

And this is why we got along so well when you were here. We think the same way.

Damianne wrote:
ugh never mind.