Danny Does Glamour wrote:
...
Traveling models spend a great deal of time, money, and effort getting from one destination to another. A cancellation can be devastating. Deposits provide security and allow them to better plan their trip. It's really that simple.

Using your same argument  - The photographer has no reason to trust the model.  Paid models flake as much as TF.

There is no right or wrong here. But to suggest that the photographer is wrong to balk at that demand is rediculous.

playing devils advocate, Why wouldn't this be reversed and the photographer demand a deposit from the model. This protects the photographers interest (again, using your argument).

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:
You can ask for deposits for shoots someone would like to book with you & most people will do it. If they are resistive, that might indicate some lack of commitment on their part and they would be a waste of effort chasing anyway.

I do not ask for deposits all the time, but for anyone who rescheduled in the past, deposits have to be paid.

Sounds extremely reasonable!

I have yet to encounter any model with a deposit policy and I dunno... first round I think it's helpful to have a good faith policy.  That said, something big (like a wedding) it's standard for the photographer to get a deposit, and nowadays if someone wants to book me in LA I have a deposit because LA is notorious.

Wysiwyg Photography wrote:

Laura UnBound wrote:
Enforcing a 100% deposit policy is difficult and rarely works unless you have people literally beating down your door to throw their money at you.

However, what you can do, is require a booking fee (that will count towards your shoot later) that absolutely holds their spot on your calendar, inform people who refuse to make a deposit that you'll still be happy to schedule with theme, but if someone willing to put down the deposit comes along and wants that persons day, they get bumped out of the spot for not putting a deposit down. People guaranteeing you money are first priority. They can either take a tentative date, or put down a deposit. The worst thing is holding open a peak day like Saturday and having that person cancel last minute, because everyone else has already filled their saturday and you're left sitting around twiddling your thumbs.

I'm with the notion that some models have 'earned' the reputation of a getting a deposit from me... If I wanted to shoot Laura.. I would have no problems giving her a deposit.

There are actually quite a few models I have run into on and off this forum that I would have no problems giving a deposit to.

However, there are some models I would be be a bit hesitant to giving a deposit to.

I really think it has to do with who is asking for the deposit then the deposit policy
itself...

The question then lies... how bad do you want to shoot said model? She has a policy.. she says she requires an escort, she says she wants a lunch and at least a 3 hour shoot... she wants half the money up front... Is her look that in demand that you say "OK"? or do you move to the next?

I really think it's a reputation thing and not so much a policy thing. as Some models will be able to charge a deposit and get it, and some won't.

For a model you were interested in enough to schedule, but not quite interested enough to put down a deposit, how would you feel about hearing " I'll put you down in pencil, but someone who's willing to put down a deposit gets put down in pen and might bump your spot"? Do you think that's reasonable, since you couldnt guarantee money? I mean, we all know shit happens, what if your [insert unfortunate situation here] happened and you really HAD to cancel?  (general you, not you specifically) You can apologize all you want but apologies don't pay for anything.

Rebecca Lawrence wrote:
You will get a lot of last minute cancellations.  You will very rarely get deposits or have your cancellation fee honored.  The only thing you can do to prepare yourself is to ANTICIPATE flakes and be prepared to not lose money on your trip.  There's no way to really do this well, but here are a few suggestions:

1. Don't base a trip around a single photographer.  Have a diverse group of people to work with on a single trip if it involves air travel or significant driving time.  A lot of shorter shoots may yield more than a single high-paying gig that could cancel.

2. Keep a list of photographers who may have said they are available for shorter shoots at the last minute.  Let people you were unable to schedule with know that you'd be happy to contact them if anyone else cancels and make sure you exchange schedules and have a phone number for them on file in the event that you find yourself with last minute availability.

3.  If you can, leave an open day or half day at the end of your trip.  I usually like to save a day off or touristy day for myself anyway, and more often than not, I've had to use this day to accommodate someone who had to reschedule last minute from earlier in the week.

4.  Backtrack. Although it sounds counterintuitive, I know that some cities have been more prone to flakes for me. And I will work with this by visiting that city twice within one or two months of the initial trip.  Occasionally I can fill in my schedule for an entire second trip based solely around people who had last minute issues come up the first time.  (Additionally, I can work with everyone who mentioned to me on the first trip that they'd love to shoot but were busy, out of town, needed to save money, whatever).  It's less fun, but driving to a city and then backtracking home and hitting up everyone you missed along the way instead of choosing a new route can be good for that. 

In summary, since you can't expect deposits or cancellation fees, your best bet is hoping someone can reschedule in the future.  If you try to make time for this to happen,you'll be better off.  I remain flexible on my travel schedule -- usually don't plan more than three months in advance -- so that I can accommodate some things like this.  When someone cancels, be prepared to find another shoot or have something fun to do while traveling or a friend you could hang out with in the back of your mind so that when someone does cancel, you don't spend the whole day fuming on the forums and can see it as an opportunity to have some fun.

I know a lot of this is overly optimistic and presumes that you won't starve to death if someone cancels.  But this is how I travel - try your best to communicate very clearly and avoid flakes in the first place - and then be ready to not totally lose your mind when they happen!  If you're not going to make your rent/car payment/eat if someone cancels, your trip is too high risk in the first place.  I won't get on a plane anymore if I don't have some savings (or at the very least credit) to get me home if something goes wrong.

Straight up business advice from a full-time traveling model, posted on Model Colloquy on Model Mayhem.  Ignored by everyone.

Rebecca Lawrence wrote:
Straight up business advice from a full-time traveling model, posted on Model Colloquy on Model Mayhem.  Ignored by everyone.

You should submit this as an EDU article. Well worth the read & a lot more knowledgeable & on the mark than some of the chuckleheads who claim to be "experts" in that feature.

Rebecca Lawrence wrote:

Straight up business advice from a full-time traveling model, posted on Model Colloquy on Model Mayhem.  Ignored by everyone.

I read it, absorbed it, patted my ego for the stuff I knew, kicked myself for the stuff I haven't done in the past that have fucked my shit up, and then skipped merrily off.

Laura UnBound wrote:

For a model you were interested in enough to schedule, but not quite interested enough to put down a deposit, how would you feel about hearing " I'll put you down in pencil, but someone who's willing to put down a deposit gets put down in pen and might bump your spot"? Do you think that's reasonable, since you couldnt guarantee money? I mean, we all know shit happens, what if your [insert unfortunate situation here] happened and you really HAD to cancel?  (general you, not you specifically) You can apologize all you want but apologies don't pay for anything.

Like I said.. if you don't agree with the policy of said model.. move to the next one.. right? same with agreeing with a photographer, if you don't agree with the policies of the photographer, you would move to the next one or not accept any of his/her offers.

deposits aren't any different than any other policy out there... If I want to shoot someone bad enough and they have Policy X required no exceptions, then I have to follow said policy or I don't get to shoot with her/him.

Of course you could "put me down in pencil" but if I get bumped because someone put down cash on my spot.. then that was my own fault...

V I C T O R I A wrote:
I started requiring deposits this year and had good success with it. I have a long list of people in each city I travel to regularly that have paid deposits and can vouch for me. I had some people be initially wary, but after talking to my references, almost all of them agreed.

Photographers of all kinds require deposits, be it weddings, portraits, headshots, etc. The fact that people seem so reluctant to pay one for models is just part of the double standard idea that "only models flake." Those of us models who do this full time, especially on a freelance basis, know nothing could be farther from the truth. We deal with flakes constantly.

Requiring a deposit may reduce the number of bookings you get, but in my experience, the people willing to pay a deposit are much more likely to follow through with the shoot. I'd rather have slightly fewer bookings but a 100% success rate, than more bookings with a substantial amount of cancellations.

Some people seem to do okay collecting cancellation fees. If that works for you, more power to you. I could never manage to enforce them. Certainly if someone cancels on you short notice without paying a fee, I would require a deposit upfront before booking them again.

Makes sense to me. Plus it has got to be a god send not to have to figure in "attrition" for scheduling purposes.

V I C T O R I A wrote:
I started requiring deposits this year and had good success with it. I have a long list of people in each city I travel to regularly that have paid deposits and can vouch for me. I had some people be initially wary, but after talking to my references, almost all of them agreed.

Photographers of all kinds require deposits, be it weddings, portraits, headshots, etc. The fact that people seem so reluctant to pay one for models is just part of the double standard idea that "only models flake." Those of us models who do this full time, especially on a freelance basis, know nothing could be farther from the truth. We deal with flakes constantly.

Requiring a deposit may reduce the number of bookings you get, but in my experience, the people willing to pay a deposit are much more likely to follow through with the shoot. I'd rather have slightly fewer bookings but a 100% success rate, than more bookings with a substantial amount of cancellations.

Some people seem to do okay collecting cancellation fees. If that works for you, more power to you. I could never manage to enforce them. Certainly if someone cancels on you short notice without paying a fee, I would require a deposit upfront before booking them again.

You cannot compare Apples to Oranges and claim an injustice.

I have explained, in detail already, why the bolded paragraph is far different.  A photographer runs a business, with insurance, and the proper business related ducks in a row.  If a model registered herself as a business, carried insurance, and handled things the same way (like agencies do) then the deposit situation would be far different, which is why you do not see people complaining about paying an agency a deposit/booking fee.

Here is why this is far different. 

Example A:
Client approaches me, books me and pays my deposit.  Something happens and I have to cancel, but client has paid for things such as craft services, models, etc.  Client can then receive fair compensation for all losses due to insurance.

Example B:
I book model and pay her deposit, model gets hit by a bus and is unable to return my deposit, and, also, has no insurance to where by I may recoup either my deposit nor any other losses.

Are the differences clear?

A photographer without a business and the proper insurance is just as wrong asking for a deposit as a model doing the same thing.

This isn't a double standard and preaching it as one to make it look like everyone hates models doesn't make it true.  People can disagree with my opinions all they'd like, but in my opinion, the fact still remains the same that if you want to act and be treated like a business then you belong following the proper procedures of a business including registering, paying taxes, and getting insurance.

Just my .02, of course.

David Cajio Photography wrote:
You cannot compare Apples to Oranges and claim an injustice.

I have explained, in detail already, why the bolded paragraph is far different.  A photographer runs a business, with insurance, and the proper business related ducks in a row.  If a model registered herself as a business, carried insurance, and handled things the same way (like agencies do) then the deposit situation would be far different, which is why you do not see people complaining about paying an agency a deposit/booking fee.
Just my .02, of course.

While some photographers do run a business as you outline, and require deposits, many do not.

After hosting many traveling models, I can tell you that the majority of bookings that the models who stay with me get are not photographers who run a business. Most rent studios or shoot from home or shoot outside. If they cancel last minute or flake entirely, the model has no recourse. She has to look for a last minute booking and scramble to get to a different location. That's a lot of risk for a model who just flew 3000 miles.

I believe models wouldn't require a deposit from a real brick and mortar photography business, but I don't believe that is the norm on MM.

It's a real shame that many people, models and photographers, can't honor the commitments they make.

Danny Does Glamour wrote:
Why would a model ever trust you? You are a complete stranger to her. Trust is an earned privilege and not a right.

>>>  If a model asks me for a deposit, I will assume (rightly or wrongly) that she hasn't bothered to check my references.

The two have nothing to do with each other. If you rent property and they ask for a security deposit do you assume they haven't checked your references? No. You know it is customary and designed to protect the property owner. Models asking for deposits protect them in a similar way.

Traveling models spend a great deal of time, money, and effort getting from one destination to another. A cancellation can be devastating. Deposits provide security and allow them to better plan their trip. It's really that simple.

Thank you.

Farenell Photography wrote:
You should submit this as an EDU article.

+1

Rebecca Lawrence wrote:
You will get a lot of last minute cancellations.  You will very rarely get deposits or have your cancellation fee honored.  The only thing you can do to prepare yourself is to ANTICIPATE flakes and be prepared to not lose money on your trip.  There's no way to really do this well, but here are a few suggestions:

1. Don't base a trip around a single photographer.  Have a diverse group of people to work with on a single trip if it involves air travel or significant driving time.  A lot of shorter shoots may yield more than a single high-paying gig that could cancel.

2. Keep a list of photographers who may have said they are available for shorter shoots at the last minute.  Let people you were unable to schedule with know that you'd be happy to contact them if anyone else cancels and make sure you exchange schedules and have a phone number for them on file in the event that you find yourself with last minute availability.

3.  If you can, leave an open day or half day at the end of your trip.  I usually like to save a day off or touristy day for myself anyway, and more often than not, I've had to use this day to accommodate someone who had to reschedule last minute from earlier in the week.

4.  Backtrack. Although it sounds counterintuitive, I know that some cities have been more prone to flakes for me. And I will work with this by visiting that city twice within one or two months of the initial trip.  Occasionally I can fill in my schedule for an entire second trip based solely around people who had last minute issues come up the first time.  (Additionally, I can work with everyone who mentioned to me on the first trip that they'd love to shoot but were busy, out of town, needed to save money, whatever).  It's less fun, but driving to a city and then backtracking home and hitting up everyone you missed along the way instead of choosing a new route can be good for that. 

In summary, since you can't expect deposits or cancellation fees, your best bet is hoping someone can reschedule in the future.  If you try to make time for this to happen,you'll be better off.  I remain flexible on my travel schedule -- usually don't plan more than three months in advance -- so that I can accommodate some things like this.  When someone cancels, be prepared to find another shoot or have something fun to do while traveling or a friend you could hang out with in the back of your mind so that when someone does cancel, you don't spend the whole day fuming on the forums and can see it as an opportunity to have some fun.

I know a lot of this is overly optimistic and presumes that you won't starve to death if someone cancels.  But this is how I travel - try your best to communicate very clearly and avoid flakes in the first place - and then be ready to not totally lose your mind when they happen!  If you're not going to make your rent/car payment/eat if someone cancels, your trip is too high risk in the first place.  I won't get on a plane anymore if I don't have some savings (or at the very least credit) to get me home if something goes wrong.

Great advice!

Mo Rina wrote:
From my profile:

Cancellation Policy:  I don’t require deposits, but do require you to feel horribly guilty if you cancel our shoot on short notice.  I reserve the right to wrinkle my nose and make a face when I hear your name in the future, until you apologize profusely and either book me again with full upfront payment or offer a good-faith cancellation fee, whichever comes first.

This is the coolest cancellation policy I've seen on here. Brought a smile to my face.

Cuica Cafezinho wrote:
+1

+2 and then some In re to Rebecca's advice

Darren Brade wrote:

This is the coolest cancellation policy I've seen on here. Brought a smile to my face.

Thank you The best part is that it seems to be working very well. While tongue-in-cheek, it clearly outlines the conditions under which I would book a future shoot with someone who cancels with little notice. I don't have time to chase down cancellation fees...I just want people to follow through with their commitments.

GM Photography wrote:

That's exactly my point.  It costs about $15 for a business license here.  I have no idea what it costs in Columbus, OH, but I doubt it's much more.

The bit about a business license is genuinelly interesting.  I once owned an art gallery and one of the first things I did was get a tax id # so I would certainly have no problem with any of this.

I wanted to clarify that I have travelled some to this point, just for weeks instead of months.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Great advice!

This is very good advice, except I'd add in response to the first point that the higher paid shoots do seem to be the ones that come through for me.

Crystal Lynn wrote:
Just a random thought!

   I have been traveling for shoots and Ive been extremely blessed in that I've worked with some very creative professionals and I've  never been flaked on

I have considered what I would do if I pay BIG for a city for confirmed paid work and they all cancel and I'm out $400.

My thoughts immediately went to the Model Releases. Is there not some form of a contractual agreement that protects the rights of the photographer and the model in order to ensure both are completely comfortable with what they are getting into?

For instance, maybe I do a Model Contract with Pro Photag XYZ. It goes about stating the shoot discussions and rates. Signed and Data by each party.. just send a completed contract to my photographer.. he sign it scan and send it back and then i sign it and scan and send it back.. so he knows that if I cancel on him he can take me to court for "X" amount if it comes to that and likewise... if he cancels on me I can take him to court for "x" amount. I'm talking larger amounts in excess of $200-$300.

I'm obviously not a legal person and it probably has it's flaws. And if i were to do this I'd have an actual attorney draw it up, but there has to be some personal modeling contract or photographer contract that travelling professionals can have made for them in order for BOTH parties to be protected: either the model flaking or the photographer mysteriously booked Just a thought.. it has to be possible.. all things are possible!
Thoughts?

It's not a bad idea, but if you have email confirmation for a shoot and they cancel, they are already breaking a contract.  I'm not sure a written down and signed contract makes much difference.

Are you really going to travel back to that city AGAIN to sit all day in court and maybe collect $200?  It's fine to talk about legal theories and hiring lawyers and stuff, but a lot of times this doesn't really make sense out in the real world.

I think if you are going on any trip, you should always start out with enough money to get home no matter what, and plan that if half the photographers cancel you will still break even.

Leland Ray wrote:
I've been looking at this thread for a while, and for the record I don't remember ever paying a deposit.  I have done things like pay for gas and plane tickets, but never a deposit, per se.  This was before the traveling model phenomenon, of course, and when I had more disposable cash.  And only with models I had previously worked with.

And until recently I never got stood up by traveling models, only to have one simply not show up, nor did she ever explain why.  Another cancelled and didn't mention it until days after the shoot, then contacted me weeks later to say she was finally ready to shoot.  Uh, nope, not hardly.

However, I have worked with Brightonn twice, and she is punctual, informed and prepared.  And if she's reading this, I hope she remembers where I am because I'd like to discuss working with her again.

I have never paid a deposit to a traveling model.  I've never canceled a shoot with a model.  Models have never canceled a shoot with me.