hartcons wrote:
i've read about hobby models who got paid on their first shoot and that doesn't surprise me. if you have the look (and personality) go for it. i think it's more than just wanting to spend time with a pretty girl (plus we've had models in all shapes and sizes and ages). if your day job doesn't involve much creativity it's fun to play around with photography. the last set i did for zivity was more like shooting a little film than still photography. it's like a guy version of playing with dolls. too much fun.

I think zivity is great! I am a model for them and have been for the last 2 years. I think it helps photographers tell a story.

But this isn't for hobby models. I was speaking about real models.

Shelby Carter Model wrote:

I think zivity is great! I am a model for them and have been for the last 2 years. I think it helps photographers tell a story.

But this isn't for hobby models. I was speaking about real models.

what exactly is the difference between a hobby model and a "real" model??

Anna Adrielle wrote:

what exactly is the difference between a hobby model and a "real" model??

Hobby models aren't looking to make a living with modeling although if some wants to pay them they won't object. they are in it more for artistic expression - at least the ones I work with.

"Real" models as she means are models looking to make a living with modeling

Jeff Fiore wrote:

Hobby models aren't looking to make a living with modeling although if some wants to pay them they won't object. they are in it more for artistic expression - at least the ones I work with.

"Real" models as she means are models looking to make a living with modeling

Jeff said it.

BTW Jeff I am planning a trip to New York

Shelby Carter Model wrote:
I think zivity is great! I am a model for them and have been for the last 2 years. I think it helps photographers tell a story.

But this isn't for hobby models. I was speaking about real models.

I would be interested in hearing what your definition of a "real" model is. Edit: Just saw the response.

And the way I read this, it seems as though you are saying Zivity is not real modeling. I know a good many people who would beg to differ.

I think your relatively good advice in your OP may end up clouded by these points of seeming negativity and arguing over definitions.

Shelby Carter llama wrote:
But this isn't for hobby llamas. I was speaking about real llamas.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
For the most part I agree with you.

For me, it really comes down to having a look better than the typical TF model.

I'm not going to pay for what I can get TF, and I feel I need see a return on my expenditure.  - Either a look, that will pay me back with image sales, or something I appreciate as a hobbyist.  Certainly nudes help - basic supply and demand, but just because a model does nudes, doesn't mean I'll pay.  Having tattoos has been a reason I haven't offered pay when I otherwise would have - again:  looks.


The act of filling out a MM model profile most certainly doesn't automatically make one a model deserving of pay which is an attitude I came across often.

I agree sir.

Jeff Fiore wrote:
Hobby models aren't looking to make a living with modeling although if some wants to pay them they won't object. they are in it more for artistic expression - at least the ones I work with.

"Real" models as she means are models looking to make a living with modeling

I really don't think it's that black and white. plenty of models on mayhem do this as a parttime or fulltime job, but also enjoy making art.
plenty of models on here that don't do paid shoots don't do it for the artistic expression but just want pictures of themselves looking hot.

not to mention there's a whole area between "doing a couple of paid shoots" and "being abe to live off your modelling".

but you know, maye that's just a different debate

Dekilah wrote:

I would be interested in hearing what your definition of a "real" model is. Edit: Just saw the response.

And the way I read this, it seems as though you are saying Zivity is not real modeling. I know a good many people who would beg to differ.

I think your relatively good advice in your OP may end up clouded by these points of seeming negativity and arguing over definitions.

I am repeating what Jeff said because he describes it best.Hobby models aren't looking to make a living with modeling although if some wants to pay them they won't object. they are in it more for artistic expression - at least the ones I work with.

"Real" models as she means are models looking to make a living with modeling

And I will add that Hobby models do it for fun, because they enjoy it, it's a way they express themselves and they aren't in it for the money.

AJScalzitti wrote:
Very true, I do however think you are being a bit generous on those heights.  I don't think, at least in larger markets, that a 5'8 model would do fashion or runway when there are a lot of 5'10 models looking for work.  Granted an amazing look can make all the difference.

Well, I could say she's not being generous enough. I fall outside of her height range for an Art Nude model (which is what I am in part) at 4'10" and I know I am not the only one. I think she ballparked it pretty well. Height is only part of the equation, like you said an amazing look can make the difference.

Dekilah wrote:

I would be interested in hearing what your definition of a "real" model is. Edit: Just saw the response.

And the way I read this, it seems as though you are saying Zivity is not real modeling. I know a good many people who would beg to differ.

I think your relatively good advice in your OP may end up clouded by these points of seeming negativity and arguing over definitions.

I said zivity is great, because I think it is. lol And I do think it is real modeling. You get paid to do it, and it's a good way to be creative.

Dekilah wrote:

Well, I could say she's not being generous enough. I fall outside of her height range for an Art Nude model (which is what I am in part) at 4'10" and I know I am not the only one. I think she ballparked it pretty well. Height is only part of the equation, like you said an amazing look can make the difference.

I said they were general standards. I was being very broad on the heights and measurements. Because there is always and exception.

Anna Adrielle wrote:

I really don't think it's that black and white. plenty of models on mayhem do this as a parttime or fulltime job, but also enjoy making art.
plenty of models on here that don't do paid shoots don't do it for the artistic expression but just want pictures of themselves looking hot.

not to mention there's a whole area between "doing a couple of paid shoots" and "being abe to live off your modelling".

This is how an agency would view hobby, and real models.

Shelby Carter Model wrote:

I said they were general standards. I was being very broad on the heights and measurements. Because there is always and exception.

I was actually agreeing with your standards in that post. He was saying you were too broad, I was just basically saying we could all nitpick them but I think it was a good ballpark.

Jeff Fiore wrote:
"Real" llamas as she means are llamas looking to make a living with llamaing

Shelby Carter Model wrote:
...A model will get paid by (a) a photographer who want to improve their skills (b) a photographer that really loves your look and can't live without it in their book (c) hobbyists or gwc's who just want to spend some time with a pretty girl OR (d) a client who hires a model and photographer, and both parties get paid...

You left out one other scenario: (e) a photographer who wants to hire you for his or her revenue producing project - book, calendar, website, etc. (ie: sometimes the photographer is also the client).

hartcons wrote:
i believe that some of the traveling mayhem models make a living shooting with hobbyist photographers. to me when i say "hobby model" it could mean that the model is a hobbyist or the photographer (so probably more clear to say "hobby modeling"). basically it's not a pro fashion shoot funded by an end client. but the photographer could be a working pro (depending on your definition of pro) doing side stuff. on my last zivity shoot a model/photographer on mayhem was going to join in on the fun with the main model but then apparently got nervous because i'm a "pro" photographer (that's probably stretching it a bit but i am trying to make money although not in fashion).

but if this thread is geared toward models who make a full-time living on fashion-type modeling then obviously a lot of the models on mayhem aren't in that category.

I'm gonna have to check you out on zivity!

But yeah, this is geared towards models who want to make a full time living on being a model in whatever genre they choose.

And I thought it was already known that a lot of models on mayhem don't fall in that category. However there are a lot that do.

Gary Melton wrote:

You left out one other scenario: (e) a photographer who wants to hire you for his or her revenue producing project - book, calendar, website, etc. (ie: sometimes the photographer is also the client).

You are very correct. I will have to add that on my blog.

Dekilah wrote:

Well, I could say she's not being generous enough. I fall outside of her height range for an Art Nude model (which is what I am in part) at 4'10" and I know I am not the only one. I think she ballparked it pretty well. Height is only part of the equation, like you said an amazing look can make the difference.

In your case its your look, its different and interesting as well as pretty.  That makes a big difference

Shelby Carter Model wrote:
And I thought it was already known that a lot of models on mayhem don't fall in that category. However there are a lot that do.

AJScalzitti wrote:
In your case its your look, its different and interesting as well as pretty.  That makes a big difference

hartcons wrote:
on my last zivity shoot the model brought a friend who was curious and she had such a great look and was so nice and helpful that i would shoot her anytime. that's the fun thing about photography. it doesn't always have to be about making money. sometimes you just do it because you want to and you can.

I am a photographer, wardrobe stylist, makeup artist, and I organize photography workshops too. I shoot 1-4 times a week. I'm not always getting paid. I just love shooting, and modeling. It's my outlet. It's not just my job, it's my lifestyle. I spend like 6-15 hours a day working on something. Right now I am starting a magazine, designing a couture lingerie line, and organizing workshops. I do it all because I love it.

Shelby Carter Model wrote:
I am a photographer, wardrobe stylist, makeup artist, and I organize photography workshops too. I shoot 1-4 times a week. I'm not always getting paid. I just love shooting, and modeling. It's my outlet. It's not just my job, it's my lifestyle. I spend like 6-15 hours a day working on something. Right now I am starting a magazine, designing a couture lingerie line, and organizing workshops. I do it all because I love it.

hartcons wrote:
awesome. i admire models who can do it all. for my part i have a full plate just being a photographer and retoucher. although i did host one group shoot. it's all good. fun to be a part of.

I love them. All I ever wanted out of this was to inspire those I work with. That's why I do the workshops. To know that I inspire those that come to get better, and keep shooting, and setting goals, just makes me happy.

G Images wrote:
I am troubled by self-proclaimed experts who think that their view of the world is so important that it should be shared with the masses.

In your OP, you stated: "A model will get paid by (a) a photographer who want to improve their skills (b) a photographer that really loves your look and can't live without it in their book (c) hobbyists or gwc's who just want to spend some time with a pretty girl OR (d) a client who hires a model and photographer, and both parties get paid." Your failure to differentiate between a hobbyist and the supposed "GWC" demonstrates to me that your knowledge is less than complete.

I am a hobbyist so by your definition, I apparently am only wanting to spend time with pretty girls. There are a lot of us on this site who have professional careers in areas other than photography but you seem to disregard the possible existence the individual who enjoys photography and doesn't need to make any money from it. The day all of this becomes work, I will give it up and go find something else. If you are going to categorize people when imparting your wisdom, I would suggest that you do it with a bit more understanding of the movitvations of those who are not what you seem to consider to be real photographers.

Relax, man. I'm sure the OP would agree that you can be a hobbyist and fit into either (a) or (b) as she described it.

ChiMo wrote:
Relax, man. I'm sure the OP would agree that you can be a hobbyist and fit into either (a) or (b) as she described it.

I reacted to the term, "hobbyist", only being used in association with "GWC" and not with the term, "photographer". If the OP did not mean it as it is stated, I will withdraw my comment.

G Images wrote:
I reacted to the term, "hobbyist", only being used in association with "GWC" and not with the term, "photographer". If the OP did not mean it as it is stated, I will withdraw my comment.

A hobbyist is most commonly associated with a GWC in the fact that it's someone who is doing this for enjoyment, rather then trying to make a living with it.

While GWC largely tends to have a negative connotation, it really just means the guys who go buy a camera and just take photos of pretty girls for the sake of hanging out with pretty girls. As a llama, a good portion of my income came from GWC type photographers, many of whom just wanted a pretty girl to chat with while they snapped some photos.

A good portion of very talented photographers are "hobbyists", in that photography is not their primary source of income. There are also just as many "hobbyists" who have no real "it" factor as a photographer who just shoot for the fun and sake of hanging with pretty girls.

Getting bent out of shape because she included a term in one area of the sentence rather then another is ridiculous and childish. There is no derogatory intent or negative implication for either "hobbyist" or "GWC" aside from what you personally read into it. If you want to get technical, denotatively any person who takes a photograph is a photographer, and any male who owns a camera is a "GWC", including all the "hobbyists" and "professionals".

Her post was thought out, accurate, valid, and good advice. Stop nitpicking, it's rude and all it does is make you come off as unpleasant to communicate with.

Anna Adrielle wrote:
what exactly is the difference between a hobby model and a "real" model??

You know it when you see one.

Shelby Carter Model wrote:
And if you have been modeling for years and haven't gotten to the level of pro then maybe you should find another job/hobby.

I dont think you understand the word 'hobby'.

JadeDRed wrote:

I dont think you understand the word 'hobby'.

+1