Rachael Bueckert wrote:
Hello there MMers. I've just started getting into doing more paid work, and find that the photographers I work with only pay the rate for the time that they are pointing the camera. Even though I am at the shoot and getting prepared long before then, usually doing my own makeup, the whole process taking up about 4-5 hours while I only really get paid for maybe 1 or 2 (the clock stops whenever the photog stops shooting).

I was just wondering if this is normal. And if it is not normal, how do I go about bringing it up to the photographer?

And before I get the barage of rants, yes I know that the photographer work is 'just beginning' when a shoot ends. But a models work begins far before the shoot starts.

The right answer is, "whatever you agreed." 

If someone's paying you, it should be clarified.  It's not reasonable to make someone work three hours without pay, but it's also not reasonable to pay you for five hours and have you goof off for 3-4 of them, which is *possible* if they're paying when you're not shooting.  So, both parties should clarify the expectations.

But, in my last shoot, which lasted about 6 hours, I was "pointing the camera" for about 20 minutes and took about 200 images.  At an average of 1/100 of a second shutter speed, I was shooting for two seconds.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
You certainly shouldn't be paid for makeup and styling, especially if it takes you hours, a pro MUA could have your full face done in 15-20 mins, same goes for hair.  As a fellow model, I think what's fair would be from the moment you start shooting until the shoot is finished.  If the photographer is taking forever to set up, sure I guess you could try to justify being paid.

It can take hours because someone is really slow, or because the makeup and styling is very elaborate.  Three hours isn't out of line for high end beauty, it's absurd for a basic look.

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
Hello there MMers. I've just started getting into doing more paid work, and find that the photographers I work with only pay the rate for the time that they are pointing the camera. Even though I am at the shoot and getting prepared long before then, usually doing my own makeup, the whole process taking up about 4-5 hours while I only really get paid for maybe 1 or 2 (the clock stops whenever the photog stops shooting).

I was just wondering if this is normal. And if it is not normal, how do I go about bringing it up to the photographer?

And before I get the barage of rants, yes I know that the photographer work is 'just beginning' when a shoot ends. But a models work begins far before the shoot starts.

Are you including travel time in your four-to-five hours?  I've seen that a lot of travelling models charge for travel time, in the way they explain it on their profiles.

Others do a half day and a full day rate, and travelling time is thrown into this, quite often. 

Perhaps you could break your fee into an hourly rate with a minimum number of hours. Some models do a three-hour minimum and charge for travel time if it takes more then 30 minutes to get there.

It's nice of you to do your own makeup but it would be good to form a partnership with MUAs and hairstylists and encourage them to come up with a shooter's rate when the shoot is not immediately destined for publication.  That way you can get different looks and broaden your contacts.

Congratulations on your start and good luck.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
You certainly shouldn't be paid for makeup and styling, especially if it takes you hours, a pro MUA could have your full face done in 15-20 mins, same goes for hair.  As a fellow model, I think what's fair would be from the moment you start shooting until the shoot is finished.  If the photographer is taking forever to set up, sure I guess you could try to justify being paid.

Hmm I would disagree with this and actually have never come across this in my agency work or in my freelance work in my 7+ years experience. If the shoot is paid hourly then the clock starts when I have walked through the door and sat down in the chair and whenever my call time was and this goes for my day rates with overtime allowances. I'm still at work so i am getting paid for it. Also sometimes the styling is extensive and can take a lot of time no matter how much of a pro the stylists are...my hair also takes wayyyy longer than 20 minutes.

However this should be discussed if it is a concern to you. Some people may be different.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
You certainly shouldn't be paid for makeup and styling, especially if it takes you hours, a pro MUA could have your full face done in 15-20 mins, same goes for hair.  As a fellow llama, I think what's fair would be from the moment you start shooting until the shoot is finished.  If the photographer is taking forever to set up, sure I guess you could try to justify being paid.

You have been working with way faster makeup and hair artists than I have.

Molly K wrote:

Hmm I would disagree with this and actually have never come across this in my agency work or in my freelance work in my 7+ years experience. If the shoot is paid hourly then the clock starts when I have walked through the door and sat down in the chair and whenever my call time was and this goes for my day rates with overtime allowances. I'm still at work so i am getting paid for it. Also sometimes the styling is extensive and can take a lot of time no matter how much of a pro the stylists are...my hair also takes wayyyy longer than 20 minutes.

However this should be discussed if it is a concern to you. Some people may be different.

Exactly... I'm still working long before the shoot actually starts, and it seems a little unreasonable to be required to be at a shoot at say 1pm and then only start getting paid at 2 or 2:30pm (after I've done my makeup and photographer has finished setting up)... and then stop getting paid 20 minutes later cause the photographer has his shots...

Art of the nude wrote:

It can take hours because someone is really slow, or because the makeup and styling is very elaborate.  Three hours isn't out of line for high end beauty, it's absurd for a basic look.

In this case OP implies she's doing her own looks

Ivanafox wrote:
Normally for me when I shoot with an MM'er, a shoot starts when I was scheduled to arrive (I'm usually 20 mins early) and finishes when the shoot is finished. The commercial shoots I have done are usually the same though I have had a few that stated make-up was on my time however every single one has wrapped up hours earlier than what I was paid for so I've not lost anything.

The clock stopping and starting during the shoot seems very bizarre to me but if you are experiencing this enough to be asking about it, then it must be the way photographers in your area operate. I would suggest you ditch the per hour rate and quote a day/ half day rate that encompasses a set period of time for when you are in attendance.

That seems like an excellent idea.  Day half/day would protect you both rather than hourly, since it is so arbitrary.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
I can understand being paid when a team is there, but if you're creating your own look that's on you. Friendly question. If you want to be paid.for pre-shooting work, then why arent photographers being paid for post work. If you hired one, would you have him log his hours of post production and editing or only pay for the hours he was shooting you?

Actually, I consider the 'post-time' pay already in a photographers fee. A photographers fee is generally several hundred dollars more than your average models fee. I think that's fair enough.

Rachael Bueckert wrote:

Actually, I consider the 'post-time' pay already in a photographers fee. A photographers fee is generally several hundred dollars more than your average models fee. I think that's fair enough.

Good point.  Although I've seen models charge quite a bit.  Not sure what your rates are, but I can agree, some photographers here charge immense amounts.

Ivanafox wrote:
Normally for me when I shoot with an MM'er, a shoot starts when I was scheduled to arrive (I'm usually 20 mins early) and finishes when the shoot is finished. The commercial shoots I have done are usually the same though I have had a few that stated make-up was on my time however every single one has wrapped up hours earlier than what I was paid for so I've not lost anything.

The clock stopping and starting during the shoot seems very bizarre to me but if you are experiencing this enough to be asking about it, then it must be the way photographers in your area operate. I would suggest you ditch the per hour rate and quote a day/ half day rate that encompasses a set period of time for when you are in attendance.

That seems like a good idea. I'll mention that next time I'm asked for rates, thanks!

Alivia Autumn wrote:

Good point.  Although I've seen models charge quite a bit.  Not sure what your rates are, but I can agree, some photographers here charge immense amounts.

Ya, my rates are fairly entry level. They go up a bit for commercial projects, and I adjust them to the occassion and purpose of the shoot, travel ect. But certainly quite low. Which makes it not worth my time when I only get paid for an hour or two, when I've been at the shoot for several hours, hours that I could be spending at my regular job. And when I travel, it takes 4 hours out of my day to go to either of the two main cities, so it all adds up...

Molly K wrote:
Hmm I would disagree with this and actually have never come across this in my agency work or in my freelance work in my 7+ years experience. If the shoot is paid hourly then the clock starts when I have walked through the door and sat down in the chair and whenever my call time was and this goes for my day rates with overtime allowances. I'm still at work so i am getting paid for it. Also sometimes the styling is extensive and can take a lot of time no matter how much of a pro the stylists are...my hair also takes wayyyy longer than 20 minutes.

However this should be discussed if it is a concern to you. Some people may be different.

+1?

Add to the above a Day rate (or half day) and all is well in the universe.

Kelleth wrote:
From the calltime you are given (unless you're late) to the time the shoot is wrapped (the last photo is taken).

While this is true for a commercial shoot, very few freelance photographers are going to pay in this fashion (or want to hassle with having models punch time cards.) Quite a few traveling models would price themselves right out of work.

OP, make it easy on yourself and come up with a rate based on blocks of time (with the photographer covering your travel expenses.) If you feel you should be paid the moment you arrive, then make that clear in your negotiations. Better yet, figure up a day rate and be done with it.

William Kious wrote:

While this is true for a commercial shoot, very few freelance photographers are going to pay in this fashion. Quite a few traveling models would price themselves right out of work.

OP, make it easy on yourself and come up with a rate based on blocks of time (with the photographer covering your travel expenses.) If you feel you should be paid the moment you arrive, then make that clear in your negotiations. Better yet, figure up a day rate and be done with it.

So day (half day) rate plus travel or flat day (half day) rate? And would the time taken to travel be counted in the hours for the day/half day?

Rachael Bueckert wrote:

So day (half day) rate plus travel or flat day (half day) rate? And would the time taken to travel be counted in the hours for the day/half day?

I would consider paying for travel (gas/ticket) but I'm not going to pay for the time it takes for you to reach the location. When you have a 9-to-5 job, are you paid for your commute? No.

Four-Eleven Productions wrote:
It's not a perfect system, since I've found some models using the closed door of the wardrobe changing process to respond to texts and update their Facebook status, etc. (I'm thinking, 'What do you MEAN she wrote that at 3:18 p.m.??? She was on my time then.')

Throw a rock at that hornet's nest!

This is a personal peeve of mine. A model wants paid an hourly rate (including travel, lodging and a budget for meals) yet often doesn't want to treat modeling as a job. Even better is when the photographer is expected to pay for an escort's meal in addition to the quoted rate.

William Kious wrote:

Throw a rock at that hornet's nest!

This is a personal peeve of mine. A model wants paid an hourly rate (including travel, lodging and a budget for meals) yet often doesn't want to treat modeling as a job. Even better is when the photographer is expected to pay for an escort's meal in addition to the quoted rate.

Ouch!

Four-Eleven Productions wrote:

Ouch!

Ouch, nothing... I've encountered that very demand on multiple occasions.

Kelleth wrote:
From the calltime you are given (unless you're late) to the time the shoot is wrapped (the last photo is taken).

This is the correct answer. A person should be paid for any time that is not their own to control. Whether it is in a flat rate (half/full day) or hourly.

If you are doing your own hair/makeup, there can be a case made that if you do it after you arrive, and are being paid on an hourly basis, that time might not be paid.

Kelleth wrote:
From the calltime you are given (unless you're late) to the time the shoot is wrapped (the last photo is taken).

This.

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
I only take about 15 minutes for my makeup. The rest of the time is spent setting up the set - lights, test shots ect. Then changing wardrobe, altering makeup slightly, changing set or location, fixing lights, ect. You all know how the time goes. But in some of the shoots I've been paid for, whenever the shooting stops for any reason, the time stops. I've started implementing a 2 hour minimum for local shoots and a 4 hour minimum for out of town shoots since it takes about 2 hours to travel to the main cities in my province and costs over 60 dollars for greyhound tickets.

So how do you tell a photographer when you think the clock should start, without them getting defensive about it?

You weren't clear at first.  If the shoot hasn't started because YOU aren't ready, there's some basis for discussion.  If it's past the agreed time and THEY aren't ready, you should be paid.  I did have one model very kindly not charge when I was an hour late, but there was 20 inches of snow the night before and getting to the site 120 miles away was a bit of a challenge.  She deferred my time, and we got the full time and rate.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
I can understand being paid when a team is there, but if you're creating your own look that's on you. Friendly question. If you want to be paid.for pre-shooting work, then why arent photographers being paid for post work. If you hired one, would you have him log his hours of post production and editing or only pay for the hours he was shooting you?

I appreciate your thinking, but photographers rarely charge (only) by the hour they are on set, if they're doing the post work.  Or, they build in an allowance for other parts of the job.

Four-Eleven Productions wrote:
It's not a perfect system, since I've found some models using the closed door of the wardrobe changing process to respond to texts and update their Facebook status, etc. (I'm thinking, 'What do you MEAN she wrote that at 3:18 p.m.??? She was on my time then.')

William Kious wrote:
Throw a rock at that hornet's nest!

This is a personal peeve of mine. A model wants paid an hourly rate (including travel, lodging and a budget for meals) yet often doesn't want to treat modeling as a job. Even better is when the photographer is expected to pay for an escort's meal in addition to the quoted rate.

Sometimes, the obvious answer is, NEXT!