bw fotograf wrote:

HFS. lol. i'm getting dog-piled by the fraternity of sensitive photographers. being a pro photographer sounds like an awesome gig of being able to tell a client you just didn't get anything usable. tee hee *shrug*

good thing that i'll continue to just be a scab hobbyist. i wouldn't know what to do with all of that freedom to just let people down.

CLIENTS PAY ME

Someone I am doing a test with is not my client.

I find it sad that you don't know the difference.

JadeDRed wrote:
I'm surprised how many people are suggesting a re-shoot, if a photographer hired me, ignored me for months, then refused to pay me the LAST thing i'd do is shoot with them again.

I didn't see anything in her original post about being ignored for months or her being paid (other than in images).

bw fotograf wrote:
HFS. lol. i'm getting dog-piled by the fraternity of sensitive photographers. being a pro photographer sounds like an awesome gig of being able to tell a client you just didn't get anything usable. tee hee *shrug*

good thing that i'll continue to just be a scab hobbyist. i wouldn't know what to do with all of that freedom to just let people down.

If there is such a thing as a "fraternity of sensitive photographers" then so be it!  Make me a card carrying member!  I'd rather be sensitive than insensitive any day! Being a nice guy has not hurt my business any either.

Harold Rose wrote:
In my opinion: It is the photographer that has to produce, after he accepts the project.  We would never cop out this way...

now hold on a second. don't go bringing logical and expected business practices into this. the "artist" was clearly having a bad day.

Star wrote:
CLIENTS PAY ME

Someone I am doing a test with is not my client.

I find it sad that you don't know the difference.

i find it sad that you can't read. you're the only one talking about testing here. we get it, you're a big shot that can do what they want, but the OP is talking about a standard-issue MM trade arrangement here. the OP's photographer's flippant attitude is not really acceptable in this situation.

T A Y L O R  wrote:
I find it ridiculous and insulting as a model that half the photographers on this forum are saying "if I don't like the images for whatever reason, no one gets them." Yet we have to put up with unflattering pictures, bad angles, bad lighting, and a whole bunch of other nonsense "just because." WE don't get to pick our best images at the end of a shoot. We're considered incredibly lucky if we get to pick from all the unedited ones and we definitely have no say if the photographer ends up wanting to use an image we think is ludicrously unflattering of us.

Thems the breaks my dear.
Luckily the terrible images usually aren't used to judge us, except by random people that google us.

EmGii wrote:
so i got a message from a lovely photographer that i did a trade shoot with, she said "sorry i never sent you those photos from the trade shoot. i ended up not liking them. i am a perfectionist lol" and i asked if it was my modeling and was told it was her lighting. /: has this happened to anyone else? it's the first time this happened to me, i kinda feel like i wasted my time now. :L is there any way to avoid this in the future?

But here is a thought ... If you want professional images that will have guaranteed results then go find a reputable photographer. That should be one with a set of references rather then the individual on MM that tells you to call one of the people they have TF'ed with in the past.

It's sad that you had expelled all this energy into a shoot and recieved nothing for your time, but when dealing with amateurs and aspiring professionals those are the proverbial breaks.

T A Y L O R  wrote:
I find it ridiculous and insulting as a model that half the photographers on this forum are saying "if I don't like the images for whatever reason, no one gets them." Yet we have to put up with unflattering pictures, bad angles, bad lighting, and a whole bunch of other nonsense "just because." WE don't get to pick our best images at the end of a shoot. We're considered incredibly lucky if we get to pick from all the unedited ones and we definitely have no say if the photographer ends up wanting to use an image we think is ludicrously unflattering of us.

I know right?

But we're not allowed to complain about that aspect of it, unless we want to get booed off the Internet. But a photographer can complain about horrible models all he wants even though they should be doing the same things to screen flakes that we should be doing.

T A Y L O R  wrote:
I find it ridiculous and insulting as a model that half the photographers on this forum are saying "if I don't like the images for whatever reason, no one gets them." Yet we have to put up with unflattering pictures, bad angles, bad lighting, and a whole bunch of other nonsense "just because." WE don't get to pick our best images at the end of a shoot. We're considered incredibly lucky if we get to pick from all the unedited ones and we definitely have no say if the photographer ends up wanting to use an image we think is ludicrously unflattering of us.

Ridiculous and insulting. Really?
As a model on MM, you have miles more influence as to how your image appears, is used, etc, than you ever would/do in the street level modeling world. If once in awhile someone with (usually) more experience in image selection is making a decision you don't like, well...

However, communication is the key.

T A Y L O R  wrote:
I find it ridiculous and insulting as a model that half the photographers on this forum are saying "if I don't like the images for whatever reason, no one gets them." Yet we have to put up with unflattering pictures, bad angles, bad lighting, and a whole bunch of other nonsense "just because." WE don't get to pick our best images at the end of a shoot. We're considered incredibly lucky if we get to pick from all the unedited ones and we definitely have no say if the photographer ends up wanting to use an image we think is ludicrously unflattering of us.

Don't work with that half of the photographer population.

bw fotograf wrote:
i find it sad that you can't read. you're the only one talking about testing here. we get it, you're a big shot that can do what they want, but the OP is talking about a standard-issue MM trade arrangement here. the OP's photographer's flippant attitude is not really acceptable in this situation.

You don't have to be insulting to get your opinion across.  No one died and made you the almighty clairvoyant know it all of the llamamayhem forums. 

The OP does not state that the photographer had a "flippant attitude" at all in any of her posts.  In fact, I believe that all things considered, that none of us are perfect, and that you and I don't actually know what transpired based only on the llamas side of this issue.  Now if your big ego ... umm ... sorry ... brain knows more than I do, then I shall apologize for not knowing of your great mind reading capabilities.

T A Y L O R  wrote:
I find it ridiculous and insulting as a model that half the photographers on this forum are saying "if I don't like the images for whatever reason, no one gets them." Yet we have to put up with unflattering pictures, bad angles, bad lighting, and a whole bunch of other nonsense "just because." WE don't get to pick our best images at the end of a shoot. We're considered incredibly lucky if we get to pick from all the unedited ones and we definitely have no say if the photographer ends up wanting to use an image we think is ludicrously unflattering of us.

I don't know where you are getting the impression that photographers on here have that sort of attitude?   Just as no two models are alike, no two photographers are either.  That means every single situation is at least slightly different in regards to our shoots.  Many of us are doing fine with our TFP shoots, and in our communications, we find a happy medium. That said ...

I don't know of any photographer or model that hasn't had a bad day or shoot at some point in their career.  Shooting film was even rougher to deal with because I didn't know for sure if I got "the shot" but in the vast majority of cases, I did get it.  I'm not a "hobbyist" either as I've been deriving an income from photography.   I've shot many thousands of rolls of film as well as thousands of digital images.  Just because you've been able to see the images on the camera does not mean that those images will be successfully transferred to a harddrive and come out looking the same or better.  We hope that it will, but just as with film, shit happens! 

I am honest with models about the results of our shoots.  I want to shoot great pictures and there is no reason why I wouldn't show you the vast majority of images shot ... with the exception of those out of focus, poor exposure, etc. but also being honest here ... if you think that my judgement is not as good as yours, then pay me.  If I pay you, I'm the final judge of what flies or not ... and I've always treated TFP as a mutual shoot that benefits us both with input from us both.  I am known to be extremely generous with shoots that go well.  If it didn't go well, and it was a TFP shoot, well then I will tell you (or show) what went wrong.  It doesn't happen very often, but if it does, then what's the harm in doing a reshoot?

Evie_Wolfe wrote:
This thread gets any more depressing and I'm going to have to break out the harmonica

Great!  You pull out your harmonica, and I'll get my banjo! We'll have a good time!

Patrick Walberg wrote:
You don't have to be insulting to get your opinion across.  No one died and made you the almighty clairvoyant know it all of the Modelmayhem forums. 

The OP does not state that the photographer had a "flippant attitude" at all in any of her posts.  In fact, I believe that all things considered, that none of us are perfect, and that you and I don't actually know what transpired based only on the models side of this issue.  Now if your big ego ... umm ... sorry ... brain knows more than I do, then I shall apologize for not knowing of your great mind reading capabilities.

you might want to try a looser fitting pant, patrick. your hard-on is showing.

bw fotograf wrote:
you might want to try a looser fitting pant, patrick. your hard-on is showing.

.... This whole exchange is getting so awkward.

T A Y L O R  wrote:
.... This whole exchange is getting so awkward.

i'm not going to argue anymore, i promise.

GM Photography wrote:
If she felt the photos were bad due to her actions, she should offer a re-shoot or some other form of compensation for your time.

+1
And if you enjoyed working with her...then +2.
If I am experimenting with anything the model knows up front. I never want them feeling "used".

bw fotograf wrote:
i'm not going to argue anymore, i promise.

you would do yourself well to keep that promise.

MyrnaByrna wrote:
Hi,
When I receive a batch of shots and have to filter out the no focus, poor crops and misfires I really wonder about the photographer that sent them. Its not fun to see the bad shots. I end up mentally critiquing the photographer as I look through them. Like, "Oh my...why did he send that one?" or "the focus is not on my face or eyes..." or "argh! dang autofocus!" or "egads! why didn't he tell me to raise my chin, drop my chin, fix my strap, open my eyes...or whatever." So, it isn't the pics I critique so much as it is the photographer.
Jen

Well, I may be over-stating it when I say I only take out the misfires in that I have removed some blatantly out of focus, blurred or bad shots as well. As to not taking out the other "bad shots," the funny thing is, what I think is a bad shot isn't always what the model thinks is a bad shot. What I want isn't always what the model wants. It happens often enough that some of the images the model picked are not shots that I would have ever retouched. Also when I've agreed to not shoot certain body parts or not show certain things, I see it in part as being completely open and honest with the model. She knows everything I took. Anyway; Just another perspective, but I understand where you're coming from and this has occurred to me before.

T A Y L O R  wrote:

.... This whole exchange is getting so awkward.

Yeah. Sometimes I think it's better to say, "If you wouldn't say it at a shoot, don't write it on the forums."

291 wrote:
you would do yourself well to keep that promise.

oh boy.

Viator-Defessus Photos wrote:
Yeah. Sometimes I think it's better to say, "If you wouldn't say it at a shoot, don't write it on the forums."

i had a lurker PM today about this thread to tell me what an asshole i was, that i wouldn't go anywhere and never amount to anything. i responded in kind with a succinct response, he got his last little jab in then blocked me so that i couldn't respond any further.

totally professional. totally.

bw fotograf wrote:
i'm not going to argue anymore, i promise.

291 wrote:
you would do yourself well to keep that promise.

bw fotograf wrote:
oh boy.

You broke your promise! 

bw fotograf wrote:
i had a lurker PM today about this thread to tell me what an asshole i was, that i wouldn't go anywhere and never amount to anything. i responded in kind with a succinct response, he got his last little jab in then blocked me so that i couldn't respond any further.

totally professional. totally.

It wasn't me.  I am so out spoken that I write on the forums the way I talk to people.  I've never blocked anyone.  That's right!  Not even one person on my "blocked" list,  even though I've been blocked and brigged before.

bw fotograf wrote:
you might want to try a looser fitting pant, patrick. your hard-on is showing.

I guess it's a curse when someone like you is able to see through walls and read minds, so I have nothing to hide from you.   So sorry if my "hard on" disturbs you ... I'm already wearing my baggy pants so "whatcha gonna do?"  Stop looking?

If you want to write to me, you can.  However if you think you can out smart me on the forums, you've got another thing coming! 

NOW BACK TO THE TOPIC!   I believe the OP has resolved her issue by now or is afraid to join the conversation?  We scared her off? 

EmGii wrote:
so i got a message from a lovely photographer that i did a trade shoot with, she said "sorry i never sent you those photos from the trade shoot. i ended up not liking them. i am a perfectionist lol" and i asked if it was my modeling and was told it was her lighting. /: has this happened to anyone else? it's the first time this happened to me, i kinda feel like i wasted my time now. :L is there any way to avoid this in the future?

That's blatant disrespect for your time IMO. I suppose a good way to avoid this would be to make it clear to a photographer before/during the shoot that you expect images in a timely manner, to ensure that you don't wind up putting in work for nothing. I'd feel horrible if I had nothing to give to a model after a shoot.

Koryn Locke wrote:
It's not uncommon.

In all honesty, I shot with many, many people for trade, over the years, whom I never heard from again. They just disappeared.

Actually, the fact that she admitted she had nothing to give you was pretty nice of her. Most of them won't even do that.

I'm sorry you find it not uncommon, because it should NOT be common place at all in my opinion.  What I am saying is that it's quite possible that the photographer really lost images, or the images were really poor in quality.  It doesn't mean the photographer is terrible.  She should have told her sooner though.  Communication is something I'm huge on!  As if you couldn't tell from the number of posts, I'd have been writing an apology and hoping for forgiveness.  Perhaps even a reshoot?  It certainly doesn't seem like the OP is mad or terribly upset about this, just is wondering what to do in the future.  One word;  Communicate! 

Shirley Zhong wrote:
I'd still give the photos to the models, I just don't use them myself.

If it's a poor representation of your work, that's not a good idea.  I'd show the model ... but if I can salvage a few images, I'll do so and give them.  Otherwise, if it's so bad that you wont benefit from it, then why put it out there?

bw fotograf wrote:

i had a lurker PM today about this thread to tell me what an asshole i was, that i wouldn't go anywhere and never amount to anything. i responded in kind with a succinct response, he got his last little jab in then blocked me so that i couldn't respond any further.

totally professional. totally.

I think you bring it on yourself - I largely agree with the points you're making, but the way you put them across makes you appear crass and insensitive... If you want to convert people to your way of thinking, it's just not the way to go about it - you may have alienated a few people here who would have otherwise sympathised with your position.

Back on topic:
I agree that if NO images whatsoever are forthcoming then a free re-shoot is the way ahead, but the photographer has done herself no favours by waiting to be contacted by the model. As soon as the issue was identified (like: the same day), she should have been in touch with the model offering an explanation so she wasn't left hanging.
There's almost no problem that cannot be overcome by timely communication - it's the 'not knowing' that causes problems. People sometimes fuck-up - it's human.

GM Photography wrote:

I didn't see anything in her original post about being ignored for months or her being paid (other than in images).

She mentioned it later. And TFP is a form of pay apparently, not free. If you want a free shoot then you should tell the model that.

JadeDRed wrote:

She mentioned it later. And TFP is a form of pay apparently, not free. If you want a free shoot then you should tell the model that.

I agree.

Michael Daggett wrote:
I didn't read all 4 pages of replies

You should - because there are several very good reasons why you shouldn't give out sub-standard work. And they're discussed at length.

bw fotograf wrote:

you might want to try a looser fitting pant, patrick. your hard-on is showing.

QFM

Michael Daggett wrote:
I didn't read all 4 pages of replies, but my take on the original question is: If it was a trade, then you should get something.  If I was the photographer, I'd offer money, or offer the shitty files with the request that you don't credit me.  In this case I would offer you a chance to see them before you made the decision if you get files or money.  If you don't get something that you can use in your port, then it wasn't a good trade.  UNLESS the shitty files is because the MODEL messed them up, but still, the photographer should have caught that BEFORE pressing the shutter release. So photog error, means photo has to make it right.

You cant prevent it, and as a learning photographer its critical that we get a chance to practice, and sometimes practicing doesnt yield good results, but if thats the case, the photographer should offer something else.  A reshoot is NOT acceptable, since that basically gives the photographer another free learning session.   

In order for TF to work, both parties should get something of equal value.  Ill be sure to clarify this if I shoot TF in the future.

The tog got an hour of shoot time, and you got....

You certainly don't need to read the brunt of the 4 pages, Michael, and for the most part, I agree with you on the OP.

Even though the OP has not been back to post, I hope she is reading answers such as yours.   You are correct in saying that "In order for TF to work, both parties should get something ..."  Since nearly half the shoots I do are "TFP" I take it seriously.  This is a different situation than when testing, or when one party is getting paid.   At the very least, the photographer owes the model some clear communication even if a complete disaster struck ... as memory cards can get deleted and computer hard drives can crash among other things that can happen! 

Often times I will show the models the images on my camera at some point during or after a shoot.  It can be very educational in my opinion.  However the digital age has brought photographers such a convenience, it can also work against us.  Sometimes I miss the days when film was our only choice, because what we see on the camera is NOT always going to look like the finished product.  In fact, most times it does not!  So when I do show the images of a shoot to a model, I remind her of that fact. 

About reshoots ... I disagree with you on that one!  There are times when a reshoot maybe acceptable.  I do agree that if a TFP session results in no acceptable images that the photographer should at least compensate for the models time with some sort of payment, but depending on the circumstances and the working relationship between the photographer and model, a reshoot is possible.  Back in the days when we shot film, people were more understanding to that.  Again, it goes back to that one word I keep harping about "Communication!"

D S P wrote:
Sorry to hear that. Even when we experiment with new techniques or lighting, we do play it safe and shoot some stuff to cover our asses so that all involved get something useable out of the shoot.

+1