That Italian Guy wrote:
I offer cookies... does that help?








Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Yes.

IDiivil wrote:
Hi, everyone. I've been seeing a lot of "Why won't models trade with me?" threads the last couple days. Here's some information I've put together to hopefully clarify the situation and offer solutions for you guys.
[clipped]


So what can I do to get models?
1. Pay your model.

2. Improve your portfolio.

3. Reassess the message you are sending to your models. Maybe something you are writing to them or something in your profile text is sending them red flags.

4. Offer extras. Publication opportunities, makeup/hair stylists, unique wardrobe, gas money, food, amazing locations, and anything else that can make your offer stand out amongst others.

5. Write more models.

6. Make a casting call.

7. Have examples of the genre you are asking the model to trade with you on. If you want to shoot fine art and have no examples of fine art, the model may be unwilling to offer his/her time as they are unsure if the image will be useful to them.

8. Find a way to network and meet models so you can get to know them and hopefully be on a more comfortable, level ground to offer a trade shoot on.

9. Keep an eye on your internet presence. Coming off as a difficult person online can get noticed if a model does a little digging, and that can turn them off from otherwise shooting with you.

10. Offer cookies

... I hope this helps give you guys ideas on why the model(s) you are writing are turning down trade and what you can do to change your situation

Addition!

K I C K H A M wrote:
That Italian Guy wrote:
I offer cookies... does that help? smile








Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com



Yes.

Big deal! I offer Lavazza espresso.

P I X I E wrote:
Attitude in the Model forum is also a factor.

In case this is too polite, I'll put it in my way.

If you look like a dick in the forums, I'm not likely to work with you unless there is something I can consider of INCREDIBLE value in it for me. This isn't just photographers, of course: I'm often asked on my freelance jobs to recommend models, and I do so quite frequently.

There are some people who give off bad first impressions/ have awkward personalities online, and that I can handle. However, if you make it apparent that your job is the only one in which you see value and worth, you're not someone I'm going to work with or recommend for jobs.

Edit to add: When people say things like, "Most models are stupid/ uninformed/ know nothing about art/ etc, but you are an awesome exception!" that does not help, in my book.

Jorge Kreimer wrote:

Big deal! I offer Lavazza espresso.

And you give it to me even though you know Kelli + coffee can have bad results.

IDiivil wrote:
That's why I have "Write more models" ...

But this; yes, it would help. But (a little elaboration on point no.3) be careful not to send the exact same message to everyone. Because 'bulk'text shows in reading, at least.. i can recognize it anyway. In explaining your ideas for a shoot, that's fine to copy, but you should write a few more personal sentences too. Why did you choose to write this particular model? That will let the model know that you are genuinely interested and took a look at their portfolio. Also, excessive flattering will not work in your advantage.
That's what I think.

New Art Photo wrote:
I actually like the girls I photograph. I'm amazed at the contempt some photographers show.
But I don't hire models-- I mostly work with actresses-- so
I really shouldn't be involved in this discussion.

But you are. Trolling much?

Christopher Hartman wrote:
IMPOSSIBLE!!!

It's the models! they are crazy!!  It can't possibly be ME!! I'm awesome!

You don't believe anything do you?

mcclary wrote:
I shoot almost exclusively gorilla style and move from location to location and put models in places they may not be comfortable with.  Its uncontrolled and chaotic so I get almost no models that want to work with me and that's just fine.  People go with what’s comfortable and don't stray far away from their image and truthfully, it’s their career.  More power to being selective.

guerrilla

mcclary wrote:
I shoot almost exclusively gorilla style and move from location to location and put models in places they may not be comfortable with.  Its uncontrolled and chaotic so I get almost no models that want to work with me and that's just fine.  People go with what’s comfortable and don't stray far away from their image and truthfully, it’s their career.  More power to being selective.

?

IDiivil wrote:
11. The manner in which the model is offered the trade shoot has offended them... and/or the profile, about me, requirements of the person offering the trade shoot turns off the model. Even something as simple as not crediting a single model in one's portfolio can be of note to the model.

11. The model just can't afford to trade no matter what due to his/her financial situation.

I never work with models who aren't good with numbers.  Clearly they are prima donas who feel they are above math.

On a serious note, I wonder if this thread would be more useful in the photography forum.  You'd be sure to get many more indignant posts from photographers there. 

P I X I E wrote:
?

C'est la guerre.

guerrilla

LMFAO

K I C K H A M wrote:

In case this is too polite, I'll put it in my way.

If you look like a dick in the forums, I'm not likely to work with you unless there is something I can consider of INCREDIBLE value in it for me. This isn't just photographers, of course: I'm often asked on my freelance jobs to recommend models, and I do so quite frequently.

There are some people who give off bad first impressions/ have awkward personalities online, and that I can handle. However, if you make it apparent that your job is the only one in which you see value and worth, you're not someone I'm going to work with or recommend for jobs.

Edit to add: When people say things like, "Most models are stupid/ uninformed/ know nothing about art/ etc, but you are an awesome exception!" that does not help, in my book.

Yes to all of this.

de0rbit wrote:

C'est la guerre.

Couldn't help it.

Richard Dubois Nudes wrote:

I never work with models who aren't good with numbers.  Clearly they are prima donas who feel they are above math.

On a serious note, I wonder if this thread would be more useful in the photography forum.  You'd be sure to get many more indignant posts from photographers there. 

I think this is the BEST place to post it, because this is where some photographers come to talk crap about models who don't do things they like. It's perfectly placed for the target market.

K I C K H A M wrote:

I think this is the BEST place to post it, because this is where some photographers come to talk crap about models who don't do things they like. It's perfectly placed for the target market.

Sometimes I wish those photographers would post in Critique...

New Art Photo wrote:
As someone who's done nothing but TFP shoots since getting on MM, I think I'm qualified to discuss the  subject.
I thought it was a little odd to do a long list about why models won't do TF shoots. If a photographer did the same list about Models-- there'd be hell to pay.
The bottom line for me is that is that if someone doesn't want to do TFP with me-- it's probably better, cause they don't appreciate what I'm doing.  I'll let my reputation rest on my work.

Why is it odd? With all the experience that you claim to have, it should be obvious.

I don't lose my shit if a photographer doesn't want to do TF (with me or in general). That's just life.

New Art Photo wrote:
As someone who's done nothing but TFP shoots since getting on MM, I think I'm qualified to discuss the  subject.
I thought it was a little odd to do a long list about why models won't do TF shoots. If a photographer did the same list about Models-- there'd be hell to pay.
The bottom line for me is that is that if someone doesn't want to do TFP with me-- it's probably better, cause they don't appreciate what I'm doing.  I'll let my reputation rest on my work.

I don't believe you.

If it was as professional, put-together, and non-inflammatory as what Idiivil put together, I don't think it would be bad at all

K I C K H A M wrote:

I don't believe you.

If it was as professional, put-together, and non-inflammatory as what Idiivil put together, I don't think it would be bad at all

+1

But some people just want to pick at bones it seems.

Garry k wrote:
and I would say its about 50 - 50

and that a good model can make the average photographer look good

and I think that most young women are not that moody and know quite well what they want

Try taking the ferry and come over here. You might change your mind.

I'll even buy the beer.

K I C K H A M wrote:

I think this is the BEST place to post it, because this is where some photographers come to talk crap about models who don't do things they like. It's perfectly placed for the target market.

This is true.  Excuse me while I go delete my posts, even though I've been quoted.

Richard Dubois wrote:
This is true.  Excuse me while I go delete my posts, even though I've been quoted.

You prima donna, you!

Fotografica Gregor wrote:
One factor that is not mentioned and that I admit is kinda subtle but I do think it is a factor, is that the model may think that the image quality a photographer has to offer is just fine, and feel that what he or she proposes to shoot would be worthwhile, but not think that his image selections show an understanding of what she considers is most flattering to the model, or would feel would be flattering to her. 

I do think that some models choose images that are flattering to them or perhaps they like one detail of the pose or expression,  but are not terribly good images overall -  and photographers sometimes like a shot for what it is *photographically* and are not as aware as they could or should be of what is flattering to the particular model. 

I've made a consistent effort to understand why the models I work with like certain of the images we shoot - images that I may not have chosen to edit for my own use.

Good luck. I have still not figured it out.
And the booker is another taste factor.
I have had certain images in my portfolio, different ones on the models wall, and something totally different in the models book, chosen by her booker.

K I C K H A M wrote:
I don't believe you.

If it was as professional, put-together, and non-inflammatory as what Idiivil put together, I don't think it would be bad at all

P I X I E wrote:
+1

But some people just want to pick at bones it seems.

I'm thinking of making that list, but I'm afraid of all that hell I'll have to pay.

/sarcasm

c_h_r_i_s wrote:

Less to retouch and they should be cheaper to hire by the inch.

Funny.

And how much would it cost to fly out some of those gorgeous, leggy, models that you photograph?

Richard Dubois wrote:

K I C K H A M wrote:
I don't believe you.

If it was as professional, put-together, and non-inflammatory as what Idiivil put together, I don't think it would be bad at all

I'm thinking of making that list, but I'm afraid of all that hell I'll have to pay.

/sarcasm

Ohmygawd Richard, you live a dangerous life!

New Art Photo wrote:
As someone who's done nothing but TFP shoots since getting on MM, I think I'm qualified to discuss the  subject.
I thought it was a little odd to do a long list about why models won't do TF shoots. If a photographer did the same list about Models-- there'd be hell to pay.
The bottom line for me is that is that if someone doesn't want to do TFP with me-- it's probably better, cause they don't appreciate what I'm doing.  I'll let my reputation rest on my work.

Pretty sure the point of it is IF they won't do trades, here are some potential reasons.

Some models LIKE sharing a white muscle shirt, and that's great for them.

Art of the nude wrote:

Pretty sure the point of it is IF they won't do trades, here are some potential reasons.

Some models LIKE sharing a white muscle shirt, and that's great for them.

K I C K H A M wrote:

And you give it to me even though you know Kelli + coffee can have bad results.

I have heard rumours.

Interesting results might be more accurate.