Mel Recker wrote:
Guys, guys!! Sorry - I think my words didn't come out right. I wrote: "That was my point in telling the story. When I see a portfolio full of fetish and nude photos that seem to have very little artistic merit."

It READ that I thought all fetish and nude photos were without artistic merit. What I MEANT was that some of the ones I see don't have artistic merit. Obviously nude/fetish photos can be stunningly beautiful images FULL of artistic merit. SORRY!!!

Mel

People do things for different reasons and motives, be it financial or otherwise, people doing hardcore porno DONT DO IT FOR ARTISTIC MERIT. Let others do what they want to do (nudes, erotic, fetish, good photos, bad ones, etc.) for whatever reason they want and you do what you want for your reasons and quit being judgmental to others, just because they do things differently then you.

That Italian Guy wrote:

And who's going to be watching him to make sure he doesn't go wandering around the house, helping himself to stuff he likes the look of?

What is preventing him? The same thing that prevents the photographer from doing anything to me when I am there alone: the law and common decency/humanity.

I also quite liked the facetiously suggested idea (from somewhere in this thread) of having a security fee paid beforehand-if it makes people feel better, I don't mind letting them hold $500 or whatever for me for a few hours. I'd write a contract guaranteeing the reimbursement of anything broken/stolen by my escort too, if it would cool some jets.

Orca Bay Images wrote:
That's not mutual trust. That's the photographer trusting your escort not to steal or break shit or to try to dictate the shoot.

If it was truly mutual trust, you wouldn't have insisted on the escort.

I've never once "insisted" on an escort. My comment was in response to the original question and stated that I "ask" if my boyfriend may come along (with an explanation of my reasoning) and that I've never had a photographer refuse. I've also done shoots with most of them without him there, I just like to know the option is available. The quote I used was that it would indeed seem odd if you were 100% required to be alone.

As for the driver idea-I live in Washington and am from Montana, I've had a driver before (because my car died the day before and I really had no other way of making a 3 hour drive), but that idea really only works when the weather isn't sub-zero.

Sorry it took so long for me to respond guys (and in the mean time, the thread blew up...)

Mel Recker wrote:
I'm not judging the models. People should definitely do what they want. But I don't think we should pretend that vulnerable men and women don't get taken advantage of sometimes.

This is not news to anyone, no one is preteding that it does not happen, everyone knows it has happened and will continue to happen.

Marin Photography NYC wrote:
I will say you should bring someone useful like an MUA. Other than that, no baby sitters. If you don't trust, don't go. Do your homework, check references, let someone know where you are, check in via cell phone. If someone makes you feel uncomfortable, just leave. If I had a commercial space I wouldn't care, but I shoot out of my home so I always say no. I don't want some boyfriend who I never met roaming around my home. I don't want anyone arguing or fighting, I don't want drama or anyone stealing my shit when I'm not looking. They should wait out in the car or hang out nearby til we are done working.

THAT

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Some models like to do fetish photos.  I met one this past weekend.  This shows how little you know.

+1

I'm with Jerry!

Mel Recker wrote:
I'm not judging the models. People should definitely do what they want. But I don't think we should pretend that vulnerable men and women don't get taken advantage of sometimes.

So you aren't judging models by the work they choose to do, but you are judging the photographers by their work.

Would it surprise you to know that the quality or style of a persons work has little to do with them being a creep or not?

I know of creeps that produce excellent artistic images, there are also people that have terrible amateurish portfolios that are complete gentlemen.

Have you not heard the old proverb "Don't judge a book by its cover"

Check references.. its by far the best method of staying safe in any situation.

Revenge Photography wrote:
I know of creeps that produce excellent artistic images, there are also people that have terrible amateurish portfolios that are complete gentlemen.

You know - I always shake my head a bit when I read photographers saying this.
Because, I don't know any creeps. Maybe I just associate with the wrong people.

AlexaRose wrote:
What is preventing him? The same thing that prevents the photographer from doing anything to me when I am there alone: the law and common decency/humanity.

Maybe. Can he provide me with a list of references from photographers who've allowed him to wander unsupervised around their houses and been happy with the experience?

The point is: any model who does her research knows who I am and what I'm like to work with long before she ever gets on the train to come here; I can't say the same about your escort.



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Mel Recker wrote:
I immediately wonder what the photographer's motives are, and how he got the models to participate.

Most likely because he enjoys the experience and has found somebody who is willing to pose for his camera in return for money or simply because she enjoys doing it.

I share my house with a fetish/bondage model/performance artist. I'm fairly broad-minded but I can tell you that merely hearing about some of the things she gets up to in the name of "art" and "fun" make my skin crawl and leave a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach! But having discussed it with her at considerable length I've eventually come to the conclusion that she actually enjoys doing it and finds a good deal of release and empowerment in the process, along with being quite nicely paid for it too.

Just because it's not my cup of tea or because I find it weird, sick, depraved or whatever doesn't mean she's doing it against her will or being forced into it by some sleazy pervert.

And the same applies, of course, to any image that you don't find artistic or appealing. Just because you see no merit in it doesn't mean the model was being forced or exploited.

Yes, of course, sometimes people get duped into doing things they end up regretting later - it happens to all of us at one time or another - but the vast majority of photographers (skilled or not) are just normal guys interested in making images that please them, or even indeed harmless GWCs who enjoy being around a naked model for a couple of hours once a month.

Assuming that simply because you don't like the images produced that therefore somebody must be being exploited or coerced is an extreme and paranoid misconception that is simply NOT based in reality.




Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Revenge Photography wrote:
I know of creeps that produce excellent artistic images, there are also people that have terrible amateurish portfolios that are complete gentlemen.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
You know - I always shake my head a bit when I read photographers saying this.
Because, I don't know any creeps. Maybe I just associate with the wrong people.

I know of them, I don't know them nor do I associate with them.

The reason I know of them is I network and keep a good working relationship with the models I've shot with.

AJScalzitti wrote:
No that this isn't yet another entertaining thread but could Mel please use the quote feature, it's really hard to read your posts when I can't see what/who/when you are responding to someone else.

Back to the mayhem

Sorry! I struggle with the quote button for some reason. lol.

Mel Recker wrote:
The issue goes beyond physical harm though. There is a culture of photogs who parade around as being professional through having condescending profiles. "Look at all of my rules and shake in your boots!!!" Now, of course, not al photographers with profiles like this do what I'm about to describe, but I do think it's a serious problem around these parts, and I wonder if it ever really gets addressed head-on:

Let's say there's a girl whose name is Sally who lives in smallishtown, USA. Sally has just turned 18 that week. Maybe she's tall and skinny, let's say 5'9" and a beanpole. She's never been the pretty one. Boys teased her. Girls teased her. And then one day, a friend tells her about Model Mayhem. Listen, you can get MODELING jobs," her friend says. So she joins, and immediately she gets a message from a photographer. He's cunning. He's older. He tells her he's a photographer in her area that scouts models. Promises her the world. She's young and naive, and for the first time, she feels wanted. Pretty. He says, listen, come by my apartment so we can shoot some test pics. She asks if she can bring her friend because her natural instinct is to be cautious. "Listen, I a professional," he barks back, "I only do SO many TFP shoots a month. You should feel flattered and pay attention." She looks at his profile. Dang, he does look pretty professional. I mean, look at his list of rules and regulations about how he works. All stuff in bold about this and that.

So she goes. And 15 minutes into the meeting he says, I need to take your measurements because the agencies in the big cities are gonna want to know your EXACT sizes. OK, she thinks. No biggie. But then he tells her needs her to strip down because they need to be EXACT. She doesn't know what to do. She wants to ask her friend, to get reassurance, to get guidance, but her friend isn't there. He sees her hesitation, and he snaps that if she wants to be a pro, this is how it's done. So she goes along.

The months go by, and she continues to shoot with him. He calls himself her mentor. Except he's never left the state. Never worked for or shot for a major agency. His pictures suck. But she's under his spell.

Sally could have been a runway model. She could have gone to NY, Paris, wherever. All she had to do was snap a shot of herself and submit it online to one of the big agencies. But she didn't do that. Instead, she spent the next 5 years shooting with this guy. Now she's too old. And she kind of dislikes herself. And to show for it, she has pages and pages of nude pictures with bad lighting and tacky outfits.

____

This is a true story. It's happened multiple times to girls I know. "But she was an adult, you'll say." She had to learn in her own way. And to that, I say, what if it was your daughter? Sister? Friend? Girlfriend? She was a week past 17, so much more mature than when her mother was still required to be there, right? Of course, there are many stories in reverse. Women who are totally down with whatever, and get great joy out of just being in front of the camera. They are emotionally mature and can make their own decisions, and they like being naked or whatever. That's awesome. But that's not Sally's story.

Listen, I'm not saying that this is ANY of the people on this thread. But I think we can all admit that, regardless of the escort conversation, the above problem is a serious thing. So far my short experience here has been pretty darn good, but I think of this story a lot when I see what's on MM. A lot. And it makes me so sad. I honestly can't help it.

I wonder how come Sally never noticed that the stuff in her portfolio wasn't remotely like anything she sees on an agency board.

I feel bad for Sally because she is going to have a hard time in life in general and I don't think an escort would have helped that. At a certain point, I would think after several years Sally would have smelled the bullshit.

MM is not the gateway to agencies or runway modeling. It's hard to even get commercially viable work unless one really knows how to look and vet the work let alone the character of the photographer. If Sally was smart she would have gone to an agency and not messed around too long on MM waiting to be discovered. I personally know a 16 year old girl from Smalltown USA that was on here asking for advice.

And while she got some crappy advice ( go home and have babies) the photographers who actually work in that kind of work gave her good advice. Go to the agencies and see for yourself. She got signed to the fashion division of an agency in Miami, has worked on a Target shoot and some other jobs and they are talking about sending her to Milan this spring,

But MM couldn't do that for her.

One needs to figure out what they need and how to get the work they need.
But I am not sure what this has to do with escorts at all.

Mel Recker wrote:
The issue goes beyond physical harm though. There is a culture of photogs who parade around as being professional through having condescending profiles. "Look at all of my rules and shake in your boots!!!" Now, of course, not al photographers with profiles like this do what I'm about to describe, but I do think it's a serious problem around these parts, and I wonder if it ever really gets addressed head-on:

Let's say there's a girl whose name is Sally who lives in smallishtown, USA. Sally has just turned 18 that week. Maybe she's tall and skinny, let's say 5'9" and a beanpole. She's never been the pretty one. Boys teased her. Girls teased her. And then one day, a friend tells her about Model Mayhem. Listen, you can get MODELING jobs," her friend says. So she joins, and immediately she gets a message from a photographer. He's cunning. He's older. He tells her he's a photographer in her area that scouts models. Promises her the world. She's young and naive, and for the first time, she feels wanted. Pretty. He says, listen, come by my apartment so we can shoot some test pics. She asks if she can bring her friend because her natural instinct is to be cautious. "Listen, I a professional," he barks back, "I only do SO many TFP shoots a month. You should feel flattered and pay attention." She looks at his profile. Dang, he does look pretty professional. I mean, look at his list of rules and regulations about how he works. All stuff in bold about this and that.

So she goes. And 15 minutes into the meeting he says, I need to take your measurements because the agencies in the big cities are gonna want to know your EXACT sizes. OK, she thinks. No biggie. But then he tells her needs her to strip down because they need to be EXACT. She doesn't know what to do. She wants to ask her friend, to get reassurance, to get guidance, but her friend isn't there. He sees her hesitation, and he snaps that if she wants to be a pro, this is how it's done. So she goes along.

The months go by, and she continues to shoot with him. He calls himself her mentor. Except he's never left the state. Never worked for or shot for a major agency. His pictures suck. But she's under his spell.

Sally could have been a runway model. She could have gone to NY, Paris, wherever. All she had to do was snap a shot of herself and submit it online to one of the big agencies. But she didn't do that. Instead, she spent the next 5 years shooting with this guy. Now she's too old. And she kind of dislikes herself. And to show for it, she has pages and pages of nude pictures with bad lighting and tacky outfits.

____

This is a true story. It's happened multiple times to girls I know. "But she was an adult, you'll say." She had to learn in her own way. And to that, I say, what if it was your daughter? Sister? Friend? Girlfriend? She was a week past 17, so much more mature than when her mother was still required to be there, right? Of course, there are many stories in reverse. Women who are totally down with whatever, and get great joy out of just being in front of the camera. They are emotionally mature and can make their own decisions, and they like being naked or whatever. That's awesome. But that's not Sally's story.

Listen, I'm not saying that this is ANY of the people on this thread. But I think we can all admit that, regardless of the escort conversation, the above problem is a serious thing. So far my short experience here has been pretty darn good, but I think of this story a lot when I see what's on MM. A lot. And it makes me so sad. I honestly can't help it.

What is this a Lifetime movie?   This is like a movie script.   You can't protect people from themselves.    If you live in a small town then you have to where the work is.   Further  it is incumbent upon you to do the research about how things work.   People can only take advantage of you if you let them.    Your 'Sally' example fails because even if a NY or Miami or Chicago agency liked her they will not pay for her to go there.   Even if she found work it won't pay right away and while agencies do have model houses you have to have money and no guarantees.   Yet what does any this made for TV movie have to do with escorts?   How many models spend years working with just one photographer?   In a age of the web a model who posts here can get actual paid work in days.   She can learn the business from books and websites like:   http://www.newmodels.com/


I get the impression you had a bad experience.   If so, I'm sorry.      Here's a truth I've learned.   People do what they want to do.   Others can influence us but we make our own choices.   If a 16 year goes out and kills someone in a robbery would you say they were immature?   Here's the truth of it.   Lots of young people go to LA to try and act.   They quickly run out of money and they don't always families that can help.   They either can't get regular work or they don't want low paid jobs and so some fall into stripping, prostitution or the adult industry.    Nobody tricks them into it.   Beyond a few sad examples of kids being pimped out.   They are making those choices.   

Escorts and friends can't protect you from yourself.   These are often average pretty girls who have grown up watching the Kardashians or Next Top Model.   They are not stupid or as naive as you suggest.   Creative writing though.   If acting doesn't work out consider screen plays.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

What is this a Lifetime movie?   This is like a movie script.   You can't protect people from themselves.    If you live in a small town then you have to where the work is.   Further  it is incumbent upon you to do the research about how things work.   People can only take advantage of you if you let them.    Your 'Sally' example fails because even if a NY or Miami or Chicago agency liked her they will not pay for her to go there.   Even if she found work it won't pay right away and while agencies do have model houses you have to have money and no guarantees.   Yet what does any this made for TV movie have to do with escorts?   How many models spend years working with just one photographer?   In a age of the web a model who posts here can get actual paid work in days.   She can learn the business from books and websites like:   http://www.newmodels.com/


I get the impression you had a bad experience.   If so, I'm sorry.      Here's a truth I've learned.   People do what they want to do.   Others can influence us but we make our own choices.   If a 16 year goes out and kills someone in a robbery would you say they were immature?   Here's the truth of it.   Lots of young people go to LA to try and act.   They quickly run out of money and they don't always families that can help.   They either can't get regular work or they don't want low paid jobs and so some fall into stripping, prostitution or the adult industry.    Nobody tricks them into it.   Beyond a few sad examples of kids being pimped out.   They are making those choices.   

Escorts and friends can't protect you from yourself.   These are often average pretty girls who have grown up watching the Kardashians or Next Top Model.   They are not stupid or as naive as you suggest.   Creative writing though.   If acting doesn't work out consider screen plays.

Yes!   

Swanson Studios wrote:
Shoot me now!!!

Sorry, but you don't have the right look.

Mel Recker wrote:
Guys, guys!! Sorry - I think my words didn't come out right. I wrote: "That was my point in telling the story. When I see a portfolio full of fetish and nude photos that seem to have very little artistic merit..."

It READ that I thought all fetish and nude photos were without artistic merit. What I MEANT was that some of the ones I see don't, in my opinion, have artistic merit. Obviously nude/fetish photos can be stunningly beautiful images FULL of artistic merit. SORRY!!!

Mel

Well, I guess I'm included in that undifferentiated mass of "guys" that you're responding to in the above. I know, it's tempting to just lump all viewpoints from a gender into some group view for the sake of convenience.

Just to be clear though I didn't think the problem with your statement about nude and fetish work was that you viewed it in total as lacking artistic merit. I didn't read it that way at all. I do however find the assumption that there's an implication of harm in nude or fetish work that doesn't conform to the aesthetic standards of high art and higher education to be a common and amusing, but totally unsupported and largely unexamined class bias.

short translation: oh my, those images are so low class and trashy, they must be exploited the poor dears....

It exemplifies a mindset that leads to some characteristic forms of cognitive dissonance.

Mel Recker wrote:
If Candice Swanepole approaced you tomorrow and said, "Hey, let's shoot. I'm gonna bring my bf, cool?" would you say no?

In some situations, for some photographers, I do believe that this is about making a power play.

You are entirely correct that it has to do with power. Now, I have no idea who "Candice Swanepole" is and frankly, not enough interest to look it up. I'm going to assume she's some sort of famous and that's the point. What I'll tell you is that, in a case such as that, it would become even more important to me that she come alone if we are going to do a shoot. I know what it takes for me to get images and I want absolutely none of whatever is her circus and the trappings of her fame anywhere near where I shoot.

In the unforeseeable event she wants to shoot with me, she will be playing the part of an anonymous naked woman and her task is to figure out how to be interesting and follow instructions. It's fine for her to tell me about herself. In fact I'm looking for her to do that with some combination of posture, movement and, sometimes, word. However, she's stripping off the trappings of status and fame just as surely as she's losing the clothes if she wants to work with me.

It's a back to basics interaction, collaboration and confrontation. One naked person, one observer, record, and try to make something of the material.

a HUMAN ad wrote:

People do things for different reasons and motives, be it financial or otherwise, people doing hardcore porno DONT DO IT FOR ARTISTIC MERIT. Let others do what they want to do (nudes, erotic, fetish, good photos, bad ones, etc.) for whatever reason they want and you do what you want for your reasons and quit being judgmental to others, just because they do things differently then you.

This sounds judgmental.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

You know - I always shake my head a bit when I read photographers saying this.
Because, I don't know any creeps. Maybe I just associate with the wrong people.

I've met a few.

Jeffrey M Fletcher wrote:
Well, I guess I'm included in that undifferentiated mass of "guys" that you're responding to in the above. I know, it's tempting to just lump all viewpoints from a gender into some group view for the sake of convenience.

Just to be clear though I didn't think the problem with your statement about nude and fetish work was that you viewed it in total as lacking artistic merit. I didn't read it that way at all. I do however find the assumption that there's an implication of harm in nude or fetish work that doesn't conform to the aesthetic standards of high art and higher education to be a common and amusing, but totally unsupported and largely unexamined class bias.

short translation: oh my, those images are so low class and trashy, they must be exploited the poor dears....

It exemplifies a mindset that leads to some characteristic forms of cognitive dissonance.

Yes, yes. I see your point. Exploitation sometimes happens, irrespective of whether or not the photos are what would be traditionally considered, "classy."

Mel Recker wrote:
^^ I agree that a MUA is a happy medium.

That's part of my litmus test.

Model: I can't be alone with you.

Me: Okay, you won't be alone with me. There'll be a makeup artist there.

Model: That's not good enough.

Me: Okay, we can include you in a multi-model shoot. You'll have one or two or three other models there with you at all times.

Model: Not good enough.

Me: Let me guess. Your boyfriend?

Model: Yes.

Me: Then it really wasn't about being alone with me, right? NEXT.

Orca Bay Images wrote:
That's part of my litmus test.

Model: I can't be alone with you.

Me: Okay, you won't be alone with me. There'll be a makeup artist there.

Model: That's not good enough.

Me: Okay, we can include you in a multi-model shoot. You'll have one or two or three other models there with you at all times.

Model: Not good enough.

Me: Let me guess. Your boyfriend?

Model: Yes.

Me: Then it really wasn't about being alone with me, right? NEXT.

Haha, yes!

Boyfriends, or anyone for that matter who are not directly involved on my shoots are about as welcome as a turd in a swimming pool!

Orca Bay Images wrote:
That's part of my litmus test.

Model: I can't be alone with you.

Me: Okay, you won't be alone with me. There'll be a makeup artist there.

Model: That's not good enough.

Me: Okay, we can include you in a multi-model shoot. You'll have one or two or three other models there with you at all times.

Model: Not good enough.

Me: Let me guess. Your boyfriend?

Model: Yes.

Me: Then it really wasn't about being alone with me, right? NEXT.

Considering this scenario, how much can certain escort requests be considered as a sort of romantic/erotic fantasy role play of protection and possession that the couple is trying to coerce or manipulate the photographer into participating in?

Step Above Photography wrote:
Escort Driver drops model off, has address and cell for model, meets photographer. Escort Driver can check in every hour if it makes the model feel better. Model takes first call says "I am fine" escort Driver calls later. Police can respond within minutes if there is a problem.

You can say all you want about escorts how they can be helpful but they are a distraction. The model is focused on "is he okay with my letting a stranger take pics of me in sexy lingerie, maybe being nude or ....." When the photographer is trying to get the model to give a certain look or pose and her eyes, focus is on her friend the shot is ruined and most times with newbies cannot be captured again. The models focus should be on the shoot, period!

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Great idea for a forum topic . . . !

It is when you are new to MM and feel it's a valid issue. If it bothers you, Mr. Marcus, go elsewhere or address the topic rather than sarcastically belittling people.

Mel Recker wrote:
Let's say there's a girl whose name is Sally who lives in smallishtown, USA. Sally has just turned 18 that week. Maybe she's tall and skinny, let's say 5'9" and a beanpole. She's never been the pretty one. Boys teased her. Girls teased her. And then one day, a friend tells her about Model Mayhem. Listen, you can get MODELING jobs," her friend says. So she joins, and immediately she gets a message from a photographer. He's cunning. He's older. He tells her he's a photographer in her area that scouts models. Promises her the world. She's young and naive, and for the first time, she feels wanted. Pretty. He says, listen, come by my apartment so we can shoot some test pics. She asks if she can bring her friend because her natural instinct is to be cautious. "Listen, I a professional," he barks back, "I only do SO many TFP shoots a month. You should feel flattered and pay attention." She looks at his profile. Dang, he does look pretty professional. I mean, look at his list of rules and regulations about how he works. All stuff in bold about this and that.

So she goes. And 15 minutes into the meeting he says, I need to take your measurements because the agencies in the big cities are gonna want to know your EXACT sizes. OK, she thinks. No biggie. But then he tells her needs her to strip down because they need to be EXACT. She doesn't know what to do. She wants to ask her friend, to get reassurance, to get guidance, but her friend isn't there. He sees her hesitation, and he snaps that if she wants to be a pro, this is how it's done. So she goes along.

The months go by, and she continues to shoot with him. He calls himself her mentor. Except he's never left the state. Never worked for or shot for a major agency. His pictures suck. But she's under his spell.

Sally could have been a runway model. She could have gone to NY, Paris, wherever. All she had to do was snap a shot of herself and submit it online to one of the big agencies. But she didn't do that. Instead, she spent the next 5 years shooting with this guy. Now she's too old. And she kind of dislikes herself. And to show for it, she has pages and pages of nude pictures with bad lighting and tacky outfits.

Hey! I thought that sounded familiar. I met Sally a few years back and heard a whole bunch of different stories about her. I'll try to get back here with some.