ModelMayhem.com - retouching

Laura Elizabeth Photo

Posts: 393

Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands

Natalia,
if you carefully read my post you can see that I didn't say that everyone can paint pixels over soft light layer.
I've just told that on the market there are too many beauty retouchers which paint pixels and provide great level of work and beauty market is very small.
Not more then 3%.
Tell me how many beauty companies or cosmetics houses exist on the market and they are willing to pay 4 digit or 5 digit number for files?
They are few.
How many times per year one retoucher works for that company?
Once per year maybe twice smile

maybe once in couple of years, maybe never.
Can you tell me which high end freelance retoucher on this Planet Earth works on yearly basis ( each month) for these large cosmetics houses so he/she can make living from beauty ads?
And how much chances one new high end retoucher has to get a job for those few companies?
Instead of that if he/she knows other types of retouching in front of him/her are thousands and thousand of great companies which produce cars, furniture, clothes, watches, phones, games, airplanes, etc, etc, and of course photographers which shoot that level of work
Ant that's the industry.

You speak about some editorial rates and you call that industry?
Do you know that one average wedding book for couples here in some European countries cost from $2500-$4000 per book ( 4-5 hours of shooting in studio plus 4-5 composite images , HQ manipulations for prints) .
And that is just average rates in that business , imagine rich couples how much they are willing to pay for their high end files and prints .
My best client on yearly basis is one photographer who works wedding books, he is much better client then any company on yearly basis.
Do you know how much money are willing to pay rich old ladies with their pets for shooting and retouching?
No, you don't know that definitely.
And those are just funny examples , just to tell you how wrong you are.

I think you watch all things and market from some your point of view and have some your "definition" about "some industry".
If you still think that industry is some magazine editorial that mean you don't work serious jobs.
And you don't want to understand that industry is also another genres where you work with much better clients, much better.
Believe me one wedding couple is very often much better client than your "clients" which you speak about.

Do you know which are rates for retouching for these clients?
Do you know how much cost for example one engine of the car for some well known factory with 3D work?
Like hundreds of "editorial files".
Just another example.

In almost each your post you write that on MM are amateurs doing portraits of pretty girls looking for $20 retouching?
I have to laugh seriously about that.
Did you try to offer other types of retouching for MM photographers ( and by the way here you can find a lot professional photographers around the world, a lot of them have very serious work and incomes) .
Do you know to work other types of retouching to offer them and to realize that here on MM you can find tons of people willing to pay serious rates for retouching, but they are not looking for beauty retouching , they need advertising type of files for their clients.

I really don't understand your post about amateurs on MM ( that mean you are also amateur because you are on this site ? ).
Try to offer advertising retouching with composite work for "those amateur people from MM " and you will see that you will forget about "your clients " if you have them.
You can make great living without problem just from MM if you offer that level of retouching.
And you don't want to understand that , no one cares for beauty retouching from the industry , they ask for advertising level of retouching.
You don't work that level of retouching and that's why you don't know rates and clients.
You think retouching is just faces, sorry you are very wrong.

My post was advice for people which want to have work on the market.
If you know all types of retouching you will have much more chances to find job without any problem.

Visit any serious retouching agency and check there how much beauty files they have and how much other files they have.
And you know why is like that?
Because if you are highly skilled with composite advertising work you spend same amount of time on file like you work beauty retouching ,even less in some cases.
And you can charge composite advertising commercial work for serious clients at least with 3-5 times bigger rate per file then any beauty retouching.
because not too many people provide that level of work, you have to be very highly skilled and market is very large and not over saturated .
Simply they don't have interest to work beauty files , very small market and over saturated with tons of beauty retouchers and a lot of them are willing to work for free for some exposure or promises for some future work.)
They don't want to waste their time .

Google is your friend , look what other people do,which level of work they provide, spend one day on google with searching and you will find your way.

And I would really like to see your advertising work, fashion/high fashion, composite advertising work, whatever.
All the time you speak about some your advertising retouching work in fashion industry and I have never seen that except couple of portrait files and couple of files over plain solid backgrounds in your port.
I don't ask for any client list , just to show me any advertising level of your retouching work , just one-two files if you have ( some composites, color grading, effects , lighting ,ideas , scenery , whatever you think that is advertising level of retouching for billboards, covers etc)
If you work that level of advertising retouching with fashion or high fashion files or similar advertising composite work , I would like to know , because from time to time when I have with my team problematic deadlines with clients I hire freelance retouchers , so maybe we can work sometimes, of course if you have knowledge to provide that level of work.
I tried to visit your web site to see that advertising retouching work but no domain, Go daddy is selling your domain for only $9,99, so I am wondering on which way you show your "advertising work" for serious clients if you have that work , and on which way serious well known clients from "your industry" ( editors, marketing directors, company owners) contact you, through MM inbox ( do they have to make profiles on MM to contact you) or Facebook messages?

Best
ST

Nov 23 13 01:44 pm Link

Photographer

Pierre Gussman

Posts: 168

Los Angeles, California, US

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:

ST Retouch wrote:
My advice to all young retouchers which want to make living from retouching is to learn all other types of retouching , it is a MUST.

True

ST Retouch wrote:
Things have changed on the market.

No, they haven´t - The only thing that changed is that more people can do basic stuff then everyone doing a crappy job is out of a job smile

ST Retouch wrote:
Beauty retouching is very, very small part of the market, not more then 3% of the market ( I speak about real market, industry market).

Lets define the market then... lets define the industry.

I think when YOU speak about the industry, you mean something different.

So lets, define the terminology so we can be clearer.

ST Retouch wrote:
Money maker in retouching business is special commercial and advertising retouching with composite work or cgi work for serious clients and companies which order that level of retouching ( automotive retouching, sport retouching, high end jewelry retouching, high end fashion retouching or any other type of retouching with composite work).

What about all of the cosmetic ads?

ST Retouch wrote:
These days if you don't provide that level of retouching it is almost impossible to get any serious job or clients.

Those who say it can`t be done shouldn´t interrupt those already doing it.

ST Retouch wrote:
I know couple of good retouchers which make living just from beauty retouching ( but it is nothing special, because they can earn more money if they find some other regular jobs in some companies ) and I know much more beauty retouchers without any job and with a lot of problems to find clients , because they don't know to work other types of retouching.
Also market is really over saturated with beauty retouchers, too many beauty retouchers, and they fight for work for 3% of the market.

YOUR experience and YOUR definition of "the market"

One beauty/hair image (KI) for L`Oreal goes from USD1000 to USD 3500 (around)

Believe me, you can make a good living doing beauty.

ST Retouch wrote:
For example have a look here on this great site forums and challenges.
If someone wants free beauty retouching , it is enough to make post on forum , to put his/her files and a lot of people will make free retouching , to build their portfolios.
To be honest some of them provide extraordinary work for free.

Sure, MM... that´s the market... amateur photographers doing portraits of pretty girls looking for a $20 retoucher. THATS the market.

ST Retouch wrote:
From the other side try to post files here on forum to get free advertising retouching with composite work , and you will see that no one will do that work for free.

You`re mistaking working on an image for your portfolio with FREE WORK
If you don´t have a portfolio and you need to build one and don´t want to/CANT pay a photographer for THEIR images then you retouch, don´t get monetary compensation but you get usage rights.

I would be willing to work on an image for no monetary compensation if it´s for portfolio use, but real advertising, with a paying client, that´s not a test or portfolio building, that´s someone taking advantage of you and that´s why most people wouldn´t do it for free.

YET if a photographer posts some good source images to create an advertising like image for portfolio then I'm pretty sure A LOT of starting retouchers would JUMP at the chance.

ST Retouch wrote:
Not too many people on the market ( retouchers or retouching agencies) work high class of advertising retouching with composite work and all of them have a lot of jobs , with real industry rates.
I speak about really high class of work with realistic retouching and composition , with great photo realism style ( not fake digital work with fake digital backgrounds which entry level of digital artist work) .

Exactly. Just the really good ones.

ST Retouch wrote:
There are two ways to make living from retouching .

One way is to find some agency or some online shops and to be part of their team.
Mostly they need junior level of retouchers because they work with a huge amount of files like Look Book or catalog files , salaries there are nothing special , so you have to think if is better for you to stay as junior level of retoucher in some ordinary agency or online shop, or to find some regular job somewhere else.
Also that level of simple retouching provide a lot of outsourcing companies from India, China, Bangladesh etc so you will fight with them who will be cheaper.

So this is NOT a way to make money out of retouching. Got it. So it´s not really TWO ways...

ST Retouch wrote:
Second way is to stay as a freelance high end retoucher and to provide your services to very serious clients worldwide and also to provide your services to other high end retouching agencies worldwide which need top high end freelance retouchers and which work for serious advertising clients .

Yes, this is a way.
Another is working in a production company who does MORE than catalog
Another is to partner up with a photography studio.
Another is to work INHOUSE a retouching agency.
Another is to create your own company and hire retouchers yourself.

ST Retouch wrote:
With this second way you can make living from retouching and to make money.
But, you have to be very, very highly skilled and you have to know all other types of retouching, serious retouching.

Beauty retouching is not serious retouching... weird Ogilvy paid me big money for consulting on it for their inhouse team.

ST Retouch wrote:
If you know only beauty retouching, you will not be in the game.

Bullshit! Sure you need to know everything but you can be a specialist.

ST Retouch wrote:
Also I forgot to write , retouching for companies which make games , to make backgrounds and sceneries from scratch is the best work at the moment on the market.
Rates are enormously high , you can charge for 3-5 different backgrounds and sceneries from $7000-$20000 per simple game ( working time on files for highly skilled people for that from 4-7 days)
If we speak about advanced games , my god which rates are.
Friend of mine runs service for that level of retouching and I was impressed when I saw his rates and invoices.
I couldn't believe what I saw.

Yes, there are many many many markets within retouching besides retail smile

ST Retouch wrote:
Many people on forum and young retouchers dream about some retouching for magazines or covers or whatever else, because too many people( "retouchers") on retouching forum play with their post and with "their understanding" of the industry where don't belong

Fashion and beauty retoucher´s dream SHOULD be working for high end magazines.

You will never understand why tho.

ST Retouch wrote:
Retouching for magazines is very low-end business ( better to say free business or TF work however you want to call that) , or sometimes you can earn some peanuts from photographers which want to submit their files to magazines, and if you dream to make retouching for magazines , it is better to find job in some grill and to sell food.

1- Editorial is not commercial, obviously. But you don´t do it for free.
from $500 to $2000 per editorial is normal rate.

2- You don´t do editorial for the money, you do it for the exposure and because it gives you creative freedom and portfolio material.
I don´t like what I do for advertising, is cold and not interesting, it looks like any other retoucher´s work because we don´t decide a thing.

ST Retouch wrote:
So, like I wrote above, try to learn other types of retouching if you want to have job and to make living from retouching.

Yes, Learning as much as you can is always great.
The more you do and experiment and learn, the more you know where you want to become an expert.

ST Retouch wrote:
If you stay only with beauty retouching I am afraid that you will not have success on the market and it will be impossible to find any serious job in the future.

Hola!

ST Retouch wrote:
To many people paint pixels over soft light layer on the skin

Fuck you

Show me your hair and beauty work if it´s THAT easy.

ST Retouch wrote:
but not too many people on the market make serious advertising retouching.

The same amount that do high end BEAUTY advertising.

So your advice is: Learn a high end skill and you will be successful?

Brilliant!

This ^

Nov 24 13 06:45 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 2253

Rochester, New York, US

Oh Natalia, you're my hero smile

Nov 24 13 08:41 pm Link

Retoucher

a k mac

Posts: 476

London, England, United Kingdom

I have a question for ST Retouch.

In the light of your extended rants about the 'real world' of commercial retouching, and your constant suggestions that you are one of the big players in that scene, it would be interesting to actually see some of your commercial work. There is absolutely no evidence in your portfolio that you have done a single commercial project. Can you lend weight to your lectures by giving evidence that you actually know what you are talking about? Otherwise one could not be blamed for getting the impression that you inhabit a complex fantasy world.

Nov 24 13 10:47 pm Link

Retoucher

Posts: 862

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

ST Retouch wrote:
Instead of that if he/she knows other types of retouching in front of him/her are thousands and thousand of great companies which produce cars, furniture, clothes, watches, phones, games, airplanes, etc, etc, and of course photographers which shoot that level of work
Ant that's the industry.

Right mate, to be honest I have to say you are amazing at talking tosh!! Dude based on your port & website, the only thing you know is comping images into backgrounds. You have categories called as Fashion retouching on your website...sorry mate, that's not fashion retouching! You believe that it is but trust me, that isn't!! You are incapable of seeing or understanding the meaning of industry because in my eyes, you are not part of it!

ST Retouch wrote:
You speak about some editorial rates and you call that industry?

LOL sorry for laughing.. Clearly you don't have a clue of what a magazine (big one) can pay for a campaign from a big photographer and obviously you haven't experience it. Otherwise you would never say something like this.

ST Retouch wrote:
Imagine rich couples how much they are willing to pay for their high end files and prints .
My best client on yearly basis is one photographer who works wedding books, he is much better client then any company on yearly basis.
Do you know how much money are willing to pay rich old ladies with their pets for shooting and retouching? ST

Lol again!! Are you serious again?? How do you get those rich clients?? Or get in touch with those photographers that shoot for rich photographers (weddings)?? Please don't tell me that you are googleing this??

ST Retouch wrote:
And those are just funny examples , just to tell you how wrong you are.ST

Very funny indeed!

ST Retouch wrote:
I think you watch all things and market from some your point of view and have some your "definition" about "some industry".
If you still think that industry is some magazine editorial that mean you don't work serious jobs.

Just to give you an example, working on an editorial for L'Officiel Paris, Elle, Conde Nast you can get €1000 per editorial job, is that not 4 figures?? Is that not good enough for you?? Is that not serious??

ST Retouch wrote:
My post was advice for people which want to have work on the market.
If you know all types of retouching you will have much more chances to find job without any problem.

This is the only thing you've said that makes a bit of sense... but is not necessarily true... You can be a specialist on a matter...

ST Retouch wrote:
Simply they don't have interest to work beauty files , very small market and over saturated with tons of beauty retouchers and a lot of them are willing to work for free for some exposure or promises for some future work.

Do you think, companies that spend 4 figures on retouching campaign they are going to rely on someone that is going to do it for free or just for credit? Come on get a grip and do a bit of research before posting non sense here.

ST Retouch wrote:
Spend one day on google with searching and you will find your way.

This is exactly what you should do!

ST Retouch wrote:
And I would really like to see your advertising work, fashion/high fashion, composite advertising work, whatever.

This is the proof that you are not in the loop and don't have a clue of what you are talking about!!

ST Retouch wrote:
I tried to visit your web site to see that advertising retouching work but no domain, Go daddy is selling your domain for only $9,99, so I am wondering on which way you show your "advertising work" for serious clients if you have that work , and on which way serious well known clients from "your industry" ( editors, marketing directors, company owners) contact you, through MM inbox ( do they have to make profiles on MM to contact you) or Facebook messages?

PHONE!!!

Nov 25 13 02:40 am Link

Retoucher

ailleacht photography

Posts: 862

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

AKMac wrote:
I have a question for ST Retouch.

In the light of your extended rants about the 'real world' of commercial retouching, and your constant suggestions that you are one of the big players in that scene, it would be interesting to actually see some of your commercial work. There is absolutely no evidence in your portfolio that you have done a single commercial project. Can you lend weight to your lectures by giving evidence that you actually know what you are talking about? Otherwise one could not be blamed for getting the impression that you inhabit a complex fantasy world.

Good question Alaistair!!

Nov 25 13 02:43 am Link

Photographer

Posts: 14

Peru, Indiana, US

ODesk is pretty good place. Its a freelance job site. I've hired a couple retouchers from there. You'll have to sift projects a bit, a lot of people expect amazing work for next to nothing but you also have realistic clients who pay reasonable rates as well.

Nov 25 13 02:53 am Link

Retoucher

DHeirus

Posts: 108

Tacoma, Washington, US

Imo quality beauty retouching is much more difficult than replacing backgrounds and color correction. I believe most retouchers have examples of beauty in their ports for this reason, I do however have examples of both in my port. Additionally, I have yet to see a movie poster or billboard where there isn't some retouching to the actors/models, so the idea that beauty isn't a big part of the industry is flawed logic, and may represent a misunderstanding of retouching all together. Finding models, Photographers and retouchers on MM who work for cheap or even free is as easy as typing in modelmayhem.com. This isn't exclusive to retouchers, in fact it's easier to find the former than the latter. I'd be willing to bet too that in the millions of files uploaded to MM less than 5% have not been digitally altered in post, and I'd be willing to bet more of them have alterations to the model/subject than do to the background. No photo is appearing in a legitimate publication without having been retouched, and no legitimate model can point to a published photo of themselves that hasn't been retouched either. If you think the millions of photos that go into legitimate publications are retouched for cups of coffee then you are mistaken. If money is spent on wardrobe, a model, a skilled photographer and MUA then believe the money will also be spent on a legit retoucher to create a finished product.

Nov 25 13 03:17 am Link

Retoucher

Posts: 393

Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands

Commercial retouching is type of retouching where you work for commercial clients.
Commercial client for example can be the biggest company on the world or commercial client can be just one small company or shop , whatever.
That is definition of commercial work.
It is very simple commercial work is market where small companies, big companies, the biggest companies order their files from retouchers or retouching agencies, or from photographers which shoot that level of work.
Any small local shop or local company is better client then any magazine editorial , if you don't know that , what I can say.

But, Definition of commercial market from some retouchers here is that market is something else, only some beauty ads, and working with some big names , without any commercial retouching in their portfolio.

If you don't understand what is commercial and advertising type of retouching , you have Google search , enter in Google search engine words advertising retouching and commercial retouching and have a look what retouching agencies worldwide provide.

I have never said that I am one of the biggest name in the industry , don't try to play with my post, I have just asked couple of retouchers here to show me their advertising level of retouching , because on the way how they speak on forum , how they know everything about "industry", how they know rates, I can understand that they are a real big names from the industry with a lot of experience.
So I would like to see that files from these retouchers , L'oreal Ads, Revlon Ads etc, but real Ads , and please no files from some photo contests where everyone can send them file for contest like Photo Vogue or similar contests which cosmetics houses from time to time organize.

So it is very easy , maybe I am wrong and I will learn something new , I like to learn , because I learn every day
So let's say I am nobody, 40-years old guy at the begging of my carrier as a photographer and retoucher, willing to learn from "some industry retouchers" here and I am ready to learn (even if I work with photography 20 years, with employees , studio etc, I will be nobody for you)
But I will ask that retouchers to show me their advertising and commercial level of work , again I don't ask for client list, just to see even one-two advertising level of files.
I don't ask too much, just one or two files , to see that famous advertising level of work, composites, color grading, lighting, scenery and whatever else which is definition of advertising retouching.

Invisible touch, I would like to ask you, why you don't remove your web site from internet and wait on clients to call you on Phone?
Why to have web site with examples , it is enough to have just mobile phone, or I am missing something in the industry?
Maybe we have new trends in the industry, serious clients worldwide don't like to see and check examples and level of work which you as a retoucher provide, so if is like that, please share with me that experience , because I don't know that and I would like to learn new trends, maybe I will catch some new clients with removing my files and just to share my mobile phone?

I am ready,willing to learn and I am waiting to see tons of your beauty ads , some retouchers here speak that they provide tons of these beauty ads and I am waiting to see these ads.
If you ( not "you " personally") say that you can make living from beauty ads, that mean you must have at least 30-50 very serious beauty ads in your carrier.
It is very easy, all these ads from most famous beauty and cosmetics houses in last 5-7 years can be found online so please just share your links and files from these tons of beauty ads.
And please I am waiting for ads, no cheap editorials for some magazines.

Best
ST

Nov 25 13 04:52 am Link

Retoucher

Posts: 862

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

ST Retouch wrote:
I have just asked couple of retouchers here to show me their advertising level of retouching , because on the way how they speak on forum , how they know everything about "industry", how they know rates, I can understand that they are a real big names from the industry with a lot of experience.

You are truly unbelievable, so you are asking for proof from others but you aren't showing anything else than comping images in your port/website but you are very happy to preach to others how good you are, claiming to know all the ins and outs of this industry, rates and how everything works.. So I am going to send that request back to you, can you prove yourself???

ST Retouch wrote:
So I would like to see that files from these retouchers , L'oreal Ads, Revlon Ads etc, but real Ads , and please no files from some photo contests where everyone can send them file for contest like Photo Vogue or similar contests which cosmetics houses from time to time organize.

Obviously you are not really double checking things, so let me do it for you.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=natalia+taffarel

ST Retouch wrote:
So it is very easy , maybe I am wrong and I will learn something new , I like to learn , because I learn every day

If you like to learn, you should start by reading and taking in what people are saying here!!

ST Retouch wrote:
I am nobody, 40-years old guy at the begging of my carrier as a photographer and retoucher, , willing to learn from "some industry retouchers" here and I am ready to learn .

What a contradiction this is!! So you claim now to be a beginner but you also claim to know everything regarding this industry?? Sorry not buying it!!

ST Retouch wrote:
Invisible touch, I appreciate your post, and I would like to ask you, why you don't remove your web site from internet and wait on clients to call you on Phone?
Why to have web site with examples , it is enough to have just mobile phone, or I am missing something in the industry?
Maybe we have new trends in the industry, serious clients worldwide don't like to see and check examples and level of work which you as a retoucher provide, so if is like that, please share with me that experience , because I don't know that and I would like to learn new trends, maybe I will catch some new clients with removing my files and just to share my mobile phone?

You don't seem to have too much sense of humour!! lol as that was a joke but truth being said probably she gets phone calls from so many big people as she is pretty good on what she does and what she teaches!!

Also for your information, the biggest retouchers out there don't have websites, that's a fact. They don't have them because they have achieved a reputation and these people they get contacted directly (phone) maybe email too..

Nov 25 13 05:25 am Link

Retoucher

a k mac

Posts: 476

London, England, United Kingdom

I think you just answered my question, thanks, ST.

Nov 25 13 05:37 am Link

Retoucher

Posts: 393

Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands

Invisible touch,
Thanks for answer,
sorry but you didn't provide me links from any ads.

On link which you posted
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=natalia+taffarel there are no ads, just some files.
I am sorry, I am no kid online to send me similar links.

I have asked for L'oreal Ads, Revlon Ads or any other ads from top cosmetics houses which are done from retouchers from this forum and thread.
It is not so difficult , I think you already know where to search for these ads if there are any ads.
I know that there are no any official beauty ads from people from this thread, not even one advertising work, but maybe you know better , that's why I asked for links.

Also I would like to ask you to send me links from biggest name in retouching industry, from those people which don't have web site , and which have only mobile phones, to see their files, on that way you can help us on forum to find that biggest name and to contact them sometimes where we need level of work which they provide.

And please don't send us Pascal white page from his web site, because Box is probably the most famous retouching house in the world.
I ask you to send me links from your biggest name in industry , your freelance retouchers which don't have web site , which work only with mobile phones and which have biggest names , so we can have chance maybe to contact them sometimes, or to see their work so we can learn something new.

Please share that, any file , any link , any portfolio.
I am very curios to see what people without web site and with just one mobile phone provide.
Maybe I would like to hire them.
And please don't send us link here from "retouchers" which work Look Book files over solid studio background , I ask to send me links from those hidden superstars which provide top advertising retouching.
You told us you know them, so please put some links.
Again I know there are no any "hidden superstars" which provide that level of work without web site and just with mobile phone, but OK, you told us you know them and market, so please share your "experience".

Thank you,
Best
ST

Nov 25 13 05:46 am Link

Retoucher

Pari Retouch

Posts: 693

Nāshik, Maharashtra, India

ST Retouch wrote:
I have asked for L'oreal Ads, Revlon Ads or any other ads from top cosmetics houses which are done from retouchers from this forum and thread.

ST

Did you see this in her portfolio? https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/18558669

You can double check the image on the photographer's portfolio here: http://www.catherineharbour.com/hair/

I hope this satisfies your curiosity?

Nov 25 13 06:06 am Link

Retoucher

Posts: 393

Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands

Pari Retouch wrote:
Did you see this in her portfolio? https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/18558669

You can double check the image on the photographer's portfolio here: http://www.catherineharbour.com/hair/

I hope this satisfies your curiosity?

Thank you very much,
Can I see this file on L'oreal official ads online with link to see if is this file official L'oreal ad or file from some photo contest.
And this is one file, can I see another 20-50 beauty L'oreal,Revlon ads from anyone else here on forum , because no one can make living from one beauty ad, or I am missing something again?

Thank you

Nov 25 13 06:12 am Link

Retoucher

Najan

Posts: 120

Poitiers, Poitou-Charentes, France

This is illogic. High-end retouching is meant to be a discreet job. It is a skill practised with so high competency that it is meant to be invisible. It is in poor taste to be a loud-mouth, it will mean to disregard the fundamental value of your work. Promote indeed, but always be discreet about your clients. It is called professional ethic. So it is unlikely that one will be eager to prove you are wrong, especially if it is asked so arrogantly. Thank you for your understanding.

Nov 25 13 08:02 am Link

Retoucher

Posts: 393

Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands

Najan wrote:
This is illogic. High-end retouching is meant to be a discreet job. It is a skill practised with so high competency that it is meant to be invisible. It is in poor taste to be a loud-mouth, it will mean to disregard the fundamental value of your work. Promote indeed, but always be discreet about your clients. It is called professional ethic. So it is unlikely that one will be eager to prove you are wrong, especially if it is asked so arrogantly. Thank your for your understanding.

Thanks for answer,
I agree with part of your post.
Retouching is hidden , discreet job, but also retouching means portfolio.
If you don't show portfolio to clients how they will know what you do, and how they will hire you?
If someone on forum say that he/she works in top industry and provide top beauty ads or any advertising level of retouching , and in his/her port we can see only couple of portraits or couple of Look Book Files, that is very strange .
Sorry I wouldn't hire no one who just speaks that he'she works in some industry without to see their files

Let me try to compare something.

If I say on forum that I am pilot of some spaceship and I drive tourists from Planet Earth to planet Mars ,every Monday and Friday, everyone will say OK you are great, but, can we see your spaceship.
Who will pay me to drive him to planet Mars without to see my spaceship.
I can tell to my potential clients that my spaceship is in the service , but, do you think that clients will threat me as a serious guy if I say that?

It is the same and with any other job, even with retouching , who will pay any retoucher on Planet Earth without to see his/her port?
Stories of some hidden, successful, biggest names in the industry which work without web site and only with mobile phones or emails are stories for small babies before sleeping, for lullaby.
And I can see that stories always from same people, from these " established advertising retouchers" with couple of portrait and Look book files.
And even those people have "some portfolio" , because if they don't have "some portfolio" that mean they don't exist.
I would really like that I am wrong, that's why I asked can I see any file ( just one single advertising file) from those people, which works without web site and only with mobile phones or emails to contact them immediately and to hire them and I do believe that many other people from MM will contact them immediately.
But again I will ask them to see their port, which is normal, I wouldn't like to listen stories that spaceship is in the service.
And I don't ask for any client list , just to see single advertising level of work , even TF work , free work, whatever.

So back to the spaceship, if someone say that produce top beauty ads for best cosmetics houses in the world, and that he/she can make living from these beauty ads , that mean his/her port is full of these beauty ads and they can not be " in the service".

So where are these famous beauty ads and where are those famous people , biggest names in the retouching industry which work without web site , just with phone and email, is their links, files and portfolios also "in the service" like my spaceship from above for space tourists ?

I am ready to hire someone because I am looking for high end advertising retoucher at the moment ,I will need him/her from January next year, so I will be so thankful to anyone who provide me any link from those people , that biggest name which work without web site, it is very difficult to find them because I don't have their mobile phones or emails.

Thank you
Best

Nov 25 13 09:11 am Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Several Things:

1- I´m not that cool that I don´t need a website. I need one, even tho most of my work comes from referrals.

2- Brands like L´Oreal produce millions of images per year. It´s a huge market.
Each country has a representative and they work through different agencies.
An example: I did recently some work for L´Oreal Paris, through a production company in China, working for an ad agency abroad. The only french thing was the photographer. Those images (we did the beauty and hair, another retoucher did the products but we ended up doing the corrections on the products as well because the other retoucher didn´t want the account anymore) were KI for launching and they were never online massively.
You won´t find it in their website since they only have the international main campaigns, not the launching or smaller communication images.
It´s the LOWER end of the high end beauty market to do a KI for a launching but the retouching is never under $1000 per image (not the full image, since the same is charged for the product retouch and some more for the composite of both together)
But no, you won´t find it, since it´s only for the asian market.

3- I have nothing to prove to you nor I want you to give me a job. Thank you for the offer.

4- I show mostly editorial work because that´s what I like and that´s what I think represents my style the most. It doesn´t keep me from working mostly in commercial markets.
Just did a series of 3 ads for oral-B. Why? Because the characters showing the products were 3 female celebrities that needed beauty retouching. I didn´t retouch the product in those ads and I won´t be showing them in my portfolio since I find the finals to be over retouched and that doesn´t represent my work.
I also work on Mc Donnals hamburgers or Hellmans sandwiches or Nestle fricking coffee mugs - You won´t see that in my book - EVER

5- There are a lot of industries and just because you can make shitloads of money doing matte painting or illustration of backgrounds for creative advertising it´s idiotic to recommend someone to learn that.
I´m not an illustrator, I can´t do that, I don´t want to learn how to do that I enjoy the work that I do and I do it well.

Nov 25 13 10:00 am Link

Retoucher

Najan

Posts: 120

Poitiers, Poitou-Charentes, France

It is understandable that in the lack of renown, a portfolio with featured promotional works is needed. But as already said in this thread without paraphrasing, once the renown is done, a thorough portfolio is not necessary. Portfolio is here to promote, what is the need to promote if you are already known?

If one feels the need to promote and market his/her work, he/she will do so. It seems there are several misunderstandings. First between one's expectations about others' work and what others wish to do regarding their own works.

Second between experience and knowledge. Experience is the amount of professional interaction in a specific field. Knowledge is the intelligence gathered regarding the skills needed for the profession.

To finish between promotional work and "daily basis" work. The first one is meant to be public, the other dealt in privacy. Regarding further interactions between professionals it is better to contact privately to ask more informations rather than to rant and rave about the lack of it. It would be more productive.

(Between us, you'd better not go to Mars.)

Nov 25 13 10:05 am Link

Retoucher

Posts: 862

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

ST Retouch wrote:
If you don't show portfolio to clients how they will know what you do, and how they will hire you?
Sorry I wouldn't hire no one who just speaks that he'she works in some industry without to see their files

Dude, you just read what interest you, I have never said that every single retoucher doesn't need a port/web I have just said that the best retoucher or some/few of the best retouchers out there, don't need/have a website as they are extremely well known already within the fashion/beauty industry or work already for huge photographers/agencies.. but you can keep reading whatever you want and take your own conclusions, which is what you seem to be doing!!

I remember earlier you said you were in your 40's... stop acting them like you are 12.

ST Retouch wrote:
It is the same and with any other job, even with retouching , who will pay any retoucher on Planet Earth without to see his/her port?

Read above again!!

ST Retouch wrote:
Stories of some hidden, successful, biggest names in the industry which work without web site and only with mobile phones or emails are stories for small babies before sleeping, for lullaby.

Again, this proves that you don't have a clue of what you are saying, and again based on your website, you are selling the same idea on every sector of your website, Fashion Retouching Gallery 1 (comping), Fashion Retouching Gallery 2 (comping), Look Book (comping), Beauty...

ST Retouch wrote:
I am ready to hire someone because I am looking for high end advertising retoucher at the moment ,I will need him/her from January next year, so I will be so thankful to anyone who provide me any link from those people , that biggest name which work without web site, it is very difficult to find them because I don't have their mobile phones or emails.

This is the best thing you have said so far..

Who on Earth or on Mars is going to work with you based on your attitude of arrogance and also your website/work...

To be honest, not willing to keep feeding your non-sense so think what you want and please do us all a favour.. carry on comping!!

Nov 25 13 10:57 am Link

Retoucher

Posts: 393

Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands

OK, we know some things much better here , there are no retouchers on this forum and thread which produce top official beauty ad campaigns for best cosmetics houses on the market and which have tons of serious beauty ad campaigns in their ports and which make living from these top beauty ads.
That mean many people here try all the time with their post to play with other people, with words that they are some representatives of some industry and some market and they are not from any market or industry.

Some of them work from time to time , periodically some similar jobs not at high end level market , some lower level of work and market, and that's OK, and I hope so that I will find you all one day in that high end level market , I really wish you that to all of you!

And I didn't receive any link from Natalia to see her "fashion editorial and advertising retouching" works for magazines or whatever else which she told in her previous post , so I still don't know what she works , except stories on forum that she works from her friends online.

With all my posts I just wanted to tell you that market is everywhere for people which want to work and fight for job.

I still remember one thread I think from last year, something like that, some similar thread where some young retouchers asked where to go to find job.
I answered that for all young retouchers which are at beginning of their carriers and even for "established retouchers" which have problems to find jobs , probably the best market is retouching for very serious stock photographers and stock agencies where they can work with bulk files for that customers.
Average rate for that level of work is around $10 per file ( no you don't need to make pixel level of retouching with that level of work, jut very good professional basic retouching, you can make without problems 3 files per hour) , you will work with hundreds and thousands of files per month and you can earn more money then any "serious retouchers from MM forum " can ever make.
And the most important thing you can work every day , it is like full time job.
If you find those people and if you have couple of them as a clients, you can earn without any problem around $3000-$4000 per month, in some cases much more , all depending of you skills , and of course from your clients, some of them pay much more.

And after that my post I received tons of comments , like ST you are not form industry, ST you don't know anything, ST you don't know anything from industry etc etc etc.

This thread reminded me of that, that's why I asked everyone to show what they do , because I was curious what people which speak they are from "some industry" provide, but I could not see their " industry and work", they didn't provide me any links or portfolios or any ads , not even single advertising TF or free file.
So I will not insist on that anymore , because I understand "some things" , some people are very loud when they speak but when they have to show their work often I find quiet people or people with their "unusual explanations" and with their "unusual stories".

I would like for example to share you one link , to meet amazing Yuri Arcurs ( if you don't know him ) , to see his studio and everything around made in from stock photography ( which is not "real industry" from explanation of some retouchers here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYkNKP96b84
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4oVa1c67Bs

Yuri has his own retouchers , but if you find many other serious stock photographers and agencies around the world , you will be very happy with work and incomes.
Of course stock photography is not like it used to be and it is very hard job , but still you can make great work if you work with right people.
This is just one example, because everyone is laughing on forum when someone gives some inputs for young retouchers about stock photographers.
And to everyone who is laughing about that I would like to ask them to provide me links of their studios or any similar studio from "photographers from their industry " .

Also next thing for young retouchers, try to offer service for online shops, if you are lucky to find just one online shop as a client , again you will be very satisfied.

My honest advice , don't stay only with beauty retouching, no matter what some people here speak , learn other genres , work is everywhere, it is up to you if you want to learn or not, I gave you very honest advise.
If you know to work other genres, you will be more comfortable and you will find job easier.

All the best to everyone here , and Invisible touch I am still waiting to provide me link from those famous people , because again you speak about those people without any links.
If you please provide me any link, any file, any single advertising level of retouching from those people I will say that I was completely wrong, those famous people without web sites and with just mobile phones exist.
Please do that, provide me link, just one file, all the time you speak about some famous people without web site and with just phones, but no links, that is not serious from you , you speak stories for small kids online and beginners which thinks that is true .
If you don't have links from those people to see their work , there is no reason to write in every post same words about "some people".
Or you think that those people are "retouchers " with junior level of work which play around with Look Book files over solid background.
Please links, so I can contact them and to ask them if they are available for work.

Thank you.

Nov 25 13 11:27 am Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Stock
Weddings
Family portraits
Event photography

Are a different market and not what people in a model/photography website call "the industry"

Fashion, Beauty, advertising

Is what people call the industry.

I wouldn't work on stock, a lot of images, little pay per image, automatic retouching. Batch
Can you make a lot of money? Sure, that's not the point.

I wouldn't work on weddings - same reason.
I got offered a week all expenses paid + $5000 in Saudi Arabia to retouch a wedding.
300 images in one week, I said no. Sure it's good money but I'd kill myself on day 3

Nov 25 13 12:11 pm Link

Retoucher

Posts: 393

Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Stock
Weddings
Family portraits
Event photography

Are a different market and not what people in a model/photography website call "the industry"

Fashion, Beauty, advertising

Is what people call the industry.

I wouldn't work on stock, a lot of images, little pay per image, automatic retouching. Batch
Can you make a lot of money? Sure, that's not the point.

I wouldn't work on weddings - same reason.
I got offered a week all expenses paid + $5000 in Saudi Arabia to retouch a wedding.
300 images in one week, I said no. Sure it's good money but I'd kill myself on day 3

Sure ,
I understand you what you speak about and I have similar opinion about that, but which advice you can give for young retouchers which have problems to find job?
I have never seen any advice from anyone here to young retouchers which need help.
Any solution for anyone young retouchers who is looking for job ?
To wait in front of his/her screen on "some clients" which will never come to his/her screen?
To listen "some successful stories and advises " around on forum from some people ?
And even if someone has success it doesn't mean that every other young retoucher will have that success.
Like in any other business , sometimes you have to be very lucky , even without skills to be successful.
Sometimes you can be the best but no luck, and no one will see that.

That is not solution.
Everyone has to start from somewhere and later he/she can find his/her roads.

Problem is big for young people in retouching business, especially if they live in some countries where market is very small .
Which are chances for one young talented retoucher who lives in some small country in some small village to meet people from the industry?
Maybe he/she is the most talented retoucher, but nothing.
No chances, and it is very sad.
Do you know how many young photographers around I know which can eat for breakfast many famous established photographers from the market with their skills , but nothing , no job, so they fight with weddings, senior portraits, parties and waiting for their moment.
But young retouchers have to start from somewhere , like stock, weddings, online shops whatever else to make living, and later step by step to discover and all other markets.

That's why I wrote in my post definition of the market.
Sometimes you can make more money in some "low end market" then to play around with big fishes.
Because on some "low end markets" you play every day , with Big fishes ( if you have them ) you play sometimes or never.

If you have or someone else some other solution for young retouchers , please share, help young retouchers here which ask for advices.

Nov 25 13 12:48 pm Link

Photographer

D A N I E L

Posts: 156

Caserta, Campania, Italy

The only solution I've found is quite simple... "Don't feed the trolls!!!!"

Nov 25 13 01:08 pm Link

Retoucher

Teodor Sirbu

Posts: 197

Iaşi, Iaşi, Romania

bump

Nov 25 13 01:48 pm Link

Retoucher

Teodor Sirbu

Posts: 197

Iaşi, Iaşi, Romania

ST Retouch wrote:
Sure ,
I understand you what you speak about and I have similar opinion about that, but which advice you can give for young retouchers which have problems to find job?
I have never seen any advice from anyone here to young retouchers which need help.
Any solution for anyone young retouchers who is looking for job ?
To wait in front of his/her screen on "some clients" which will never come to his/her screen?
To listen "some successful stories " around on forum from some people ?
And even if someone has success it doesn't mean that every other young retoucher will have that success.
Like in any other business , sometimes you have to be very lucky , even without skills to be successful.
Sometimes you can be the best but no luck, and no one will see that.

That is not solution.
Everyone has to start from somewhere and later he/she can find his/her roads.

Problem is big for young people in retouching business, especially if they live in some countries where market is very small .
Which are chances for one young talented retoucher who lives in some small country in some small village to meet people from the industry?
Maybe he/she is the most talented retoucher, but nothing.
No chances, and it is very sad.
Do you know how many young photographers around I know which can eat for breakfast many famous established photographers from the market with their skills , but nothing , no job, so they fight with weddings, senior portraits, parties and waiting for their moment.
But young retouchers have to start from somewhere , like stock, weddings, online shops whatever else to make living, and later step by step to discover and all other markets.

That's why I wrote in my post definition of the market.
Sometimes you can make more money in some "low end market" then to play around with big fishes.
Because on some "low end markets" you play every day , with Big fishes ( if you have them ) you play sometimes or never.

If you have or someone else some other solution for young retouchers , please share, help people.

You can't grow over night as a beginner. In my opinion if you have a fairly good portfolio and you are a little active on the social sites you have a pretty good chance to get a client. It all starts with the first client. After that the things we'll be much easier.
For beginners:
-do more than the client is expected
-loose all the bling bling , logos , watermarks , writing etc. It looks so unproffesional.
-use in your portfolio just your best images ( 5-10 is more than enough )
-exercise every day at least 1 photo.

Nov 25 13 02:00 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 1128

Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia

cwwmbm wrote:

Think about this - if I am to pay you 10-50-100-whatever dollars, I want to KNOW that you can do something else. I need to see it, preferably with before/after photos. Do you really think that somebody will ask you to retouch a car commercial only because you have a lot of pretty flawless faces in your port?

Texture is great but texture is 30% of retouching at best; and beauty retouching mainly focuses on that. Face is very 2 dimensional compared to environmental portraiture, where you have foreground, middle ground and background, and there's much more than texture involved. Do you know how to increase a perceptive volume of a scene? Do you know how to retouch so that the colors would be very pleasing and invoke a sense of nostalgia?

Let's do it this way - go to Chris Crisman website (www.crismanphoto.com). Can you retouch like this because "texture is texture"? If you can I'll hire you to do some of my photos. But I will need to see the proof that you can.

People pay 200+ bucks for a simple composite? I can do that. lol

Damn, I've got to get more into retouching.

Nov 25 13 02:59 pm Link

Retoucher

Pari Retouch

Posts: 693

Nāshik, Maharashtra, India

ST Retouch wrote:
Yuri has his own retouchers , but if you find many other serious stock photographers and agencies around the world , you will be very happy with work and incomes.

Oh really? I've worked in a company for a few months in the beginning of my career who were working with Yuri Arcurs, I can tell you working that job was a torture. You don't have to be an artist to retouch for him you just need to a photoshop cleanup guy working all day cleaning the pictures. I'm not talking about just cleaning up model's skin I mean their suits, floor, background, censor dust everything used be so messy. I would never recommend any young retoucher to ever aspire to be working for the job like that, it will be like killing the artist within you.

Nov 25 13 06:19 pm Link

Retoucher

Greg K Retouching

Posts: 407

New Orleans, Louisiana, US

Teodor Sirbu wrote:
For beginners:
-do more than the client is expected
-loose all the bling bling , logos , watermarks , writing etc. It looks so unproffesional.
-use in your portfolio just your best images ( 5-10 is more than enough )
-exercise every day at least 1 photo.

You're my hero.

Nov 25 13 06:33 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 1128

Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia

Pari Retouch wrote:

Oh really? I've worked in a company for a few months in the beginning of my career who were working with Yuri Arcurs, I can tell you working that job was a torture. You don't have to be artist to retouch for him you just need to a photoshop cleanup guy working all day cleaning the pictures. I'm not talking about just cleaning up model's skin I mean their suits, floor, background, censor dust everything used be so messy. I would never recommend any young retoucher to ever aspire to be working for the job like that, it will be like killing the artist within you.

This is exactly the line of work I've called "job for a machine" in another thread.

Nov 25 13 06:59 pm Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Teodor Sirbu wrote:

You can't grow over night as a beginner. In my opinion if you have a fairly good portfolio and you are a little active on the social sites you have a pretty good chance to get a client. It all starts with the first client. After that the things we'll be much easier.
For beginners:
-do more than the client is expected
-loose all the bling bling , logos , watermarks , writing etc. It looks so unproffesional.
-use in your portfolio just your best images ( 5-10 is more than enough )
-exercise every day at least 1 photo.

And dont I say all that in my "unsolicited advice" posts in my free blog ?

Nov 25 13 08:34 pm Link

Photographer

cwwmbm

Posts: 558

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Jakov Markovic wrote:

People pay 200+ bucks for a simple composite? I can do that. lol

Damn, I've got to get more into retouching.

which "single composite" are you talking about?

Nov 25 13 08:48 pm Link

Photographer

925 image

Posts: 284

Martinez, California, US

Nov 25 13 09:06 pm Link

Photographer

Posts: 1128

Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia

cwwmbm wrote:
which "single composite" are you talking about?

I'm talking about your avatar, it's just person, sky, ground and a plane with little overlap. It's not like someone had to mask out a bunch of trees to feet perfectly, or anything.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, it's a cute concept, I'm just saying it's not "that" hard to assemble, as let's say a Coca Cola Christmas add that includes turning daytime shots into night shots ,adding lights, adding trees, and a slay, and a truck ,that also has to fit and be lit, and a Santa and people celebrating.

Nov 25 13 11:33 pm Link

Retoucher

DHeirus

Posts: 108

Tacoma, Washington, US

I kind of agree with this comment.

Nov 26 13 01:58 am Link

Retoucher

Najan

Posts: 120

Poitiers, Poitou-Charentes, France

What is the point? I fail to understand what this has to do here. Except criticising one's work without being asked for it.

Nov 26 13 05:44 am Link

Photographer

365 Digitals Exposed

Posts: 807

Perris, California, US

cwwmbm wrote:

which "single composite" are you talking about?

CWWMBM your work is Amazing, I like the fax the you show variety of work, not only head shots, in your port, People talking about thousands per image, probably have work once a year, or is a false statement , I pay my mortgage food and Bills,doing retouching, but I get pay Hourly,if I go to 30 Photo studios in my area, and advertise $1,000 per image I'll be Homeless Let's be honest,

Nov 26 13 08:12 am Link

Photographer