cwwmbm wrote:

I'm sorry to disappoint but it's not a composite. There was a sky replaced but that's extent of it, and it's certainly not the most complicated part of the retouch.

And yes, retouch like this will more likely to bring you 100-200$ jobs than beauty stuff.

I recognize that it's much simpler than Christmas Coca Cola ads, then again if I'd be shooting those ads I wouldn't have time to hang out here. Retouching of those ads will take you way north of 200$ by the way.

So, I'm curious then, if it's not a composite, what was the "hard" part of a retouch on that particular image?

cwwmbm wrote:
And yes, retouch like this will more likely to bring you 100-200$ jobs than beauty stuff.

Sorry... how much do you think beauty is worth?

Even portfolio work when you do it right, you don`t charge less than $200 per image.

Jakov Markovic wrote:

So, I'm curious then, if it's not a composite, what was the "hard" part of a retouch on that particular image?

Thank for you condescending quotation marks.

The hard parts were:
- create a perspective, volume, 3d feel to the picture
- Even out unnecessary tone and color inconsistencies
- Color grading

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:

Sorry... how much do you think beauty is worth?

Even portfolio work when you do it right, you don`t charge less than $200 per image.

It's worth whatever people are ready to work for.
YOU don't charge less than 200$. A lot of people on MM do. You clearly missed the point of what I was saying - it's harder to make money on beauty work because a lot of people who do exceptionally good work charge very little because they are from the countries where 10$ is a significant money, not a pocket change. It's a question of supply and demand - a hell of a lot people provide supply, not a lot of people provide a demand, so the prices go down.

I realize Revlon/L'Oreal/Whatever ads will be in high three digits per photo. How many of those per year exist? 100? 200? That's barely enough to provide a full time living for 4-5 retouchers.

cwwmbm wrote:
The hard parts were:
- create a perspective, volume, 3d feel to the picture
- Even out unnecessary tone and color inconsistencies
- Color grading

Sorry but those things you're mentioning are not that hard.
-In order to create perspective, volume, 3d feel, you use create density with contrast. You can do contrast with lots of tools in PS and then fix whatever over saturation you create. You do the same thing in beauty.

- Even out unnecessary tone and color inconsistencies. Well tons of tools to do that as well and that's not hard at all, there's a thread going on right now on how to do that in the skin. You do the same thing in beauty. Even more so since, for example the image of your avatar doesn't have that many variations. A beauty image will have more, think of removing color casts and things like that.

- Color grading, that's the most complicated but it's complicated because it's a matter of taste, not because of the tools you use. Curves, selective color, gradient maps, etc. You do the same thing in beauty.

My point here is that what you think is hard, will not be hard for an experienced retoucher that polish his/her craft doing beauty work.

D A N I E L wrote:

Sorry but those things you're mentioning are not that hard.
-In order to create perspective, volume, 3d feel, you use create density with contrast. You can do contrast with lots of tools in PS and then fix whatever over saturation you create. You do the same thing in beauty.

- Even out unnecessary tone and color inconsistencies. Well tons of tools to do that as well and that's not hard at all, there's a thread going on right now on how to do that in the skin. You do the same thing in beauty. Even more so since, for example the image of your avatar doesn't have that many variations. A beauty image will have more, think of removing color casts and things like that.

- Color grading, that's the most complicated but it's complicated because it's a matter of taste, not because of the tools you use. Curves, selective color, gradient maps, etc. You do the same thing in beauty.

My point here is that what you think is hard, will not be hard for an experienced retoucher that polish his/her craft doing beauty work.

It's like you guys are intentionally skipping over the part that I emphasize the most. Let's see if I can get through this time.

It may be not hard. But until people see something in your portfolio that proves that you can do something outside of beauty - you won't get jobs from them outside of beauty. And it's not only relevant to me - you potential clients will be the same way. You can argue in forums all you want - it wouldn't change that fact though.

cwwmbm wrote:

It's like you guys are intentionally skipping over the part that I emphasize the most. Let's see if I can get through this time.

It may be not hard. But until people see something in your portfolio that proves that you can do something outside of beauty - you won't get jobs from them outside of beauty. And it's not only relevant to me - you potential clients will be the same way. You can argue in forums all you want - it wouldn't change that fact though.

I'm not arguing, I'm learning, sorry if ti came across wrong.

cwwmbm wrote:

It's worth whatever people are ready to work for.
YOU don't charge less than 200$. A lot of people on MM do. You clearly missed the point of what I was saying - it's harder to make money on beauty work because a lot of people who do exceptionally good work charge very little because they are from the countries where 10$ is a significant money, not a pocket change. It's a question of supply and demand - a hell of a lot people provide supply, not a lot of people provide a demand, so the prices go down.

I realize Revlon/L'Oreal/Whatever ads will be in high three digits per photo. How many of those per year exist? 100? 200? That's barely enough to provide a full time living for 4-5 retouchers.

Sorry you keep saying the same thing. Read my post, at least i you're going to quote me.

No, it's not a small market.
Yes, you get contacted to do other work even if you only have faces in your portfolio.
No, it's not because my name is well known. It was always like this.

This is a really simple market, work right and you will get more than enough work.

Period.

Najan wrote:
What is the point? I fail to understand what this has to do here. Except criticising one's work without being asked for it.

Interesting that the idea of an easy assignment would be taken as criticism. I think CWWMBM believes that this work, which I consider to be easy, is of more value than the more challenging work of a quality retouch, at least that's what I gather from his comments. I was a bit taken aback that he would pay big bucks for this which I can do in 10 minutes than a retouch which can take days. Perception is a big deal, if the customer perceives a background as a tougher assignment then I need to put more backgrounds in my port. I don't think anyone here with experience retouching would say that his background is a difficult task, that however has nothing to do with the quality of the photo. I additionally disagree that critique of that photo was not asked for or is inappropriate since he offered it as an example of quality work worthy of big payouts.

Najan wrote:
I am also one believer of positive criticism. What Jakov said didn't sound like it. I didn't understand. I asked.

In any field, what sounds or looks easiest isn't. It takes years to do so. Because as neophytes we always want to prove that we can. Only later we learn moderation and subtleties.

It does not surprise me that one has to pay for any work. Everyone indeed can encrust a background, but not everyone can do it smoothly.

Don't you try pinning your interpretations on me. I was interested in what was required to be done for that kind of money, especially in terms of hours, as I've been doing retouches for others for quite some time, but at 10$ an hour, it would have to be a 20 hour image in order to charge 200$, so I assumed that it was a composite, as I don't know what else would be taking retoucher 20hours to do?

Jakov Markovic wrote:
Don't you try pinning your interpretations on me.

lol Oh shut up, Jakov. I don't. Didn't you see the sentences "I didn't understand. I asked."

ETA: Although, you have to concede that in the words "positive criticism" there is the word positive, right?

Jakov Markovic wrote:
Don't you try pinning your interpretations on me. I was interested in what was required to be done for that kind of money, especially in terms of hours, as I've been doing retouches for others for quite some time, but at 10$ an hour, it would have to be a 20 hour image in order to charge 200$, so I assumed that it was a composite, as I don't know what else would be taking retoucher 20hours to do?

Who said anything about 10$ an hour?

cwwmbm wrote:

Who said anything about 10$ an hour? It was much higher than that.

Okay, so I basically have to triple my prices to get to work on better images, and not be so bored of people shooting plain photos.

Jakov Markovic wrote:

Okay, so I basically have to triple my prices to get to work on better images, and not be so bored of people shooting plain photos.

$10 an hour is less than minimum wage where cwwmbm is from. I'm sure he'd like to be paid more than someone who just started working at McDonald's.

$10 an hour is good for some, but not for others. It all depends on cost of living.

Ovidiu Oltean wrote:
A little message that i posted couple of months ago..maybe it fits with this topic.
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 93958&page

Wow! What a wonderful thread. I wonder how I missed it.

Pari Retouch wrote:

Wow! What a wonderful thread. I wonder how I missed it.

Thank you Pari, those are just some small steps that can help your business.

Freelance Retoucher wrote:
I just seen to find people here fighting their own point of view for what market is best, who is or not in the “industry” what retouching is best, who gives more money, skin vs multi-comp vs CGI etc.
But very few answers to the original

You're right!

How does this always happen haha.

Robert Randall wrote:
Hopefully, to get back on track with regard to what the OP would like to know, I’ll offer up some avenues of help that might also shine a light on the validity of some of the folks more prone to argument.

Agreed.

Robert Randall wrote:
Also to the OP, if you feel a need to stay within the magazine portion of the advertising industry, check out the retouchers at the link below. There again, you won’t find any one from MM gracing the electronic pages of the linked site.

http://beta.lebook.com/portfolios/73680/0/undefined/0

I actually work at one of the studios listed at that link. Which brings me to the point; I think that if the OP wants to go this route, it's far easier to get your start by working at a studio rather than finding an agent on one's own from the get go.  As far as I know, there is only one agent that exclusively represents retouchers, and that's Kate Chase, and her roster is composed of mainly photo-illustrative retouchers who do lots of complex compositing.  I'm not sure her agency still exists actually, but I did find this agency that represents retouchers:
http://www.visuartists.com/retouching.htm

I don't know if there are any studios of merit in Morocco, can the OP move to London or Paris or NYC?  In order to get the calibre of work you might want, you need lots of experience, and it's easier to get that experience if you live where the work is.  It's not impossible to work remotely and have that kind of work, but it's unlikely that you'd get to that level without paying your dues, so to speak, cutting your teeth at a studio in a major media market city.  Something to consider, anyway!

Tincture wrote:

Robert Randall wrote:
Hopefully, to get back on track with regard to what the OP would like to know, I’ll offer up some avenues of help that might also shine a light on the validity of some of the folks more prone to argument.

Agreed.


I actually work at one of the studios listed at that link. Which brings me to the point; I think that if the OP wants to go this route, it's far easier to get your start by working at a studio rather than finding an agent on one's own from the get go.  As far as I know, there is only one agent that exclusively represents retouchers, and that's Kate Chase, and her roster is composed of mainly photo-illustrative retouchers who do lots of complex compositing.  I'm not sure her agency still exists actually, but I did find this agency that represents retouchers:
http://www.visuartists.com/retouching.htm

I don't know if there are any studios of merit in Morocco, can the OP move to London or Paris or NYC?  In order to get the calibre of work you might want, you need lots of experience, and it's easier to get that experience if you live where the work is.  It's not impossible to work remotely and have that kind of work, but it's unlikely that you'd get to that level without paying your dues, so to speak, cutting your teeth at a studio in a major media market city.  Something to consider, anyway!

I can't believe you people don't understand. You can't just move to Paris, NY, or London. For example, I would love to work in a studio, but all I can land is internship positions. I can't afford living there, as I don't earn anything being an intern. + There is the legal issue of having work permits.

Tincture wrote:
I actually work at one of the studios listed at that link.

I love that you do work at one of those studios, it makes for a broader knowledge base in here. I hope you post more in the future!

Jakov Markovic wrote:
I can't believe you people don't understand. You can't just move to Paris, NY, or London. For example, I would love to work in a studio, but all I can land is internship positions. I can't afford living there, as I don't earn anything being an intern. + There is the legal issue of having work permits.

You're not going to like what I understand... what I understand is you're making excuses. Like anyone else that had to make it or forget it, you need to figure out how to get it done and do it. It doesn't get any more plain than that.

Robert Randall wrote:

You're not going to like what I understand... what I understand is you're making excuses. Like anyone else that had to make it or forget it, you need to figure out how to get it done and do it. It doesn't get any more plain than that.

Well, yes, I am trying to make myself necessary by learning new skills every day.

Jakov Markovic wrote:
I can't believe you people don't understand. You can't just move to Paris, NY, or London. For example, I would love to work in a studio, but all I can land is internship positions. I can't afford living there, as I don't earn anything being an intern. + There is the legal issue of having work permits.

Why not?  I'm not from NYC, but I moved here without a job and I'm doing okay.  I get the work permit thing, but I have an architect friend who works at a small firm in New York made up entirely of non-Americans. I don't know how the visa process works, but it's not an impossibility.  Also, I think you sell yourself short, your work is well beyond that of an intern!

Tincture wrote:
Why not?  I'm not from NYC, but I moved here without a job and I'm doing okay.  I get the work permit thing, but I have an architect friend who works at a small firm in New York made up entirely of non-Americans. I don't know how the visa process works, but it's not an impossibility.  Also, I think you sell yourself short, your work is well beyond that of an intern!

So, I should try for junior retoucher then? I'll flip through Craigslist, I've seen a lot of great houses advertising job openings there.

Honestly, I don't care about the city, as long as everyone in my work environment speaks English. I would absolutely move, be it Shangai, NY, London, Moscow, whatever, I really want to expand my knowledge.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
It´s the LOWER end of the high end beauty market to do a KI for a launching but the retouching is never under $1000 per image (not the full image, since the same is charged for the product retouch and some more for the composite of both together)

So wait, are you saying that for one image three different retouchers (Beauty/hair, product, Composite) could in fact be paid $1000 and up ??

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
It´s the LOWER end of the high end beauty market to do a KI for a launching but the retouching is never under $1000 per image (not the full image, since the same is charged for the product retouch and some more for the composite of both together)

Ryan Stever wrote:
So wait, are you saying that for one image three different retouchers (Beauty/hair, product, Composite) could in fact be paid $1000 and up ??

I don't know who Natalia works for, but in my market, there is no distinction drawn between disciplines. If I told a client I could only do the hair, someone else would have to work on the product, after they were done laughing at me, they would move on to someone that could do the entire image for a single fee.

Ryan Stever wrote:
Well yes absolutely

But Im guessing when you get up there with huge clients the creative director/Art director may dictate all this stuff and you dont have a choice (meaning the director wants different retouchers). Just wanted to clarify that this does happen

I don't work on a lot of beauty images, so I can't speak for that client base, which is why I said I didn't know who Natalia works for. In my career, I've never shared a job with another retoucher. And while I do periodically get just retouch jobs, the majority of the retouch I do get, is done on my own images.

I do know a lot of retouchers, and I've never heard them talk about splitting functions unless they work in a large house where the work is sometimes divided in house by specialties.

Robert Randall wrote:

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
It´s the LOWER end of the high end beauty market to do a KI for a launching but the retouching is never under $1000 per image (not the full image, since the same is charged for the product retouch and some more for the composite of both together)

I don't know who Natalia works for, but in my market, there is no distinction drawn between disciplines. If I told a client I could only do the hair, someone else would have to work on the product, after they were done laughing at me, they would move on to someone that could do the entire image for a single fee.

I didn´t decide it. They booked different people for it.

We ended up doing the product corrections in the end. The other retoucher wasn´t available.

I didn´t decide it. They booked different people for it.

We ended up doing the product corrections in the end. The other retoucher wasn´t available.

Yeah Im guessing that the creative/art directors would dictate something like that. Just interesting that it can work out that way

P A P A R A Z Z I  wrote:
I must say this thread is extremely helpful. For someone like myself that's attempting to make Retouching the main source of income. But i'm finding it less glamorous than i expected it to be. However overall i'm taking a lot from this thread. Also i have a question.

Is there like a site or group of retouchers that work together to find and split jobs? like a retouching agency of some sort. Don't know when doing retouching for all these years it always felt like a competition against everyone for clients and jobs. so i've wondered if there is some place or places such as that.

I can't think of anyplace similar to your question.About the closest example would be an agent. Networking with other retouchers might provide an opportunity for getting overflow work or job opportunities, but to my knowledge there is nothing specifically structured in Chicago to share jobs.

I'm curious about you, mostly because I'm in Chicago as well. You don't seem to have a website other than FB and here. How much experience do you have?