Brian Diaz wrote:
Don't you think it is reasonable to see that look before investing money in it?

As I said: "When would such a thing take place? A week before? A day before?"

I think my issue has to do with how a "model" takes care of themselves and I think it's completely reasonable to expect and assume that a "model" or actress takes the requisite steps to ensure they don't look pimply.

It's a nice idea to ask to see an un made up face prior to a shoot day, but when multiple people make arrangements in their schedule, locations are arranged (paid)  for, flights are arranged for, etc., it gets a little problematic to make that work in practice.

Kelleth wrote:
While I agree that models are expected to have great skin (and I myself am quite fortunate in that department), understand that acne is not necessarily indicative of someone "not taking care of themself". Sometimes it is a genetic or hormonal issue.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask for recent (or even same day) unretouched no makeup digitals to prevent booking someone with bad skin.

I'm not even talking about "great skin." I'd be ok with less than "great." And I fully understand ALL the possible causes of acne, however, I'm not necessarily making assumptions here about how this particular acne occurred. Everyone wants to jump on me for assuming, but I SAW this model smoking, not drinking water, eating garbage, and she told me she preferred "junk food."

Danielle Reid wrote:
Oh, and some skilled MUA's can hide acne bumps, or at least make your retouching job a lot less hectic. But sure, ranting helps too.

Nope. Facial topography isn't something you can cover or "hide" with makeup. Not in the least, not that it even matters.

Ida Saint-Luc wrote:
Thank you for feeling the need to immortalize your shitty mood in a searchable format. It reflects really well on you as a professional to say ignorant and judgmental things about what is, ultimately, a medical issue. Even if it's your opinion that no one with acne should model, which, of course, you're entitled to think, you don't need to make rude and unnecessary speculations as to the cause of this condition.

This is a discussion forum and I offer the topic with the hope that models may see it and then understand the importance of taking care of themselves physically in order to provide a suitable appearance for photographic pursuits. As for my "rude and unnecessary speculations" - see above.

Revenge Photography wrote:

So you didn't think to ask for an unretouched image, nobody to blame but yourself.

We live in an age of photoshop and before that there was airbrushing.

You made a noob mistake, no point blaming the model.

HAHAHAHAHA

Chris Santucci wrote:

I've never ever heard of asking a model for "unretouched, makeup-free photos" prior to a booking. When would such a thing take place? A week before? A day before? If a model markets themselves as a model, then one should assume that they don't have permanent acne, right? See where I'm going with this?

People ask me for unretouched, cell phone type photos prior to booking, pretty frequently. It's not a big deal. I even keep a cell phone snapshot of myself in a bikini on my profile page, so people can instantly see what my overall shape/fitness level is like, prior to even contacting me. I'm too muscley for some folks, not muscley enough for others - so instead of someone hiring me, then bitching about me afterwards, I'd rather them see an unflattering cell phone shot that shows my full body before they even contact me. Problem solved.

If you're working with professional models, who shoot regularly, they should have no problem sending you un- retouched snapshots of themselves.

And like others have said, self-care often has nothing to do with certain physical flaws people are prone to. I have bags under my eyes that come and go, but sometimes are worse than other times. I've had them since I was 7 years old and had sinus infections so severe that I was hospitalized for one, and the doctors thought I had spinal meningitis. I get REALLY awful sinus irritation still, have chronic rhinitis, that absolutely nothing will permanently alleviate. So, I get bags, no matter how much I sleep, no matter how I eat, no matter. It just is. Some people just have acne.

Chris Santucci wrote:
Is it too much to expect that a model (even a semi-pro or amateur model) take care of themselves? OK, so you're in your early 20's and you like to party, and smoke, and eat garbage, fine. But it's a little, dare I say - unprofessional to say the least if you expect to show up and work with bumps all over your face.

I'm in the middle of having to retouch acne on a few dozen images of a model I paid good money to and I'm not talking about a blemish, I'm talking about acne. And from what I can tell, this acne is more than likely a result of the above named causes (and this isn't worthy of a debate here.)

And this isn't the first time in the recent past I've had to deal with acne.

As a photographer, I maintain myself, my eyes, and my gear, so is it too much to ask that a model maintain themselves also? Eat healthy, drink enough water, curtail smoking, get enough sleep, etc?

I can't possibly be expecting too much here in that regard, right?

My comment is from purely MY business prospective and not mean to be confrontational nor antagonistic;

I don't want to take sides as this is a very sensitive subject to many but sometime portfolio photos can be deceiving as they are highly polished and over processed. The "truth in advertising" seen in portfolios perhaps are not important factor to some clients or photographers unless your work relies on some correct model information.

The truth of the matter is that in this field, hiring decisions are made with the knowledge and comfort of having digital retouchers on standby and the idea of "everyone can model" is well established in people's mind because over decades, gradually, the "bar" was lowered so much and all perceived negatives of the past have been made today's "standards". Therefore nowadays any girl or guy feels that it is their God giving right to model regardless of the status of their body cosmetics. The question is really who hire them; So if they get away with it then it is your fault, don't hire them.

For some if not many, on mayhem, modeling is a just a hobby, an enjoyable pass time, and a way to supplement rent at the end of the month. So acne or not acne, (and for female models) hair in unwanted places like over lips and arms is not an impeding factor rightfully in their minds Therefore a careful screening of models is a must.

I have worked with a model in 2008 at age of 28 and she called me and asked me if she can model for me again in 2014.
I asked her about her stats and she stated that they were all the same. I looked at her port and saw no new shots so I asked for a cell phone selfie to see how much she changed and hair color and style after 6 years.
She never bothered to get back to me, so did I.

Models are commodity for my work, often time I do repeat work with them if their performance cost ratio is great (rather then  good). If their physical condition will force me to spend more in time and money to correct their flaws and shortcomings, there is no point to shoot with them. I feel that they should compete well in every aspect to earn my job as I do compete for mine and it makes sense for all photographers shooting professionally not to pick the first one who tells you "I love your work".

Chris Santucci wrote:
This is a discussion forum and I offer the topic with the hope that models may see it and then understand the importance of taking care of themselves physically in order to provide a suitable appearance for photographic pursuits. As for my "rude and unnecessary speculations" - see above.

People have already explained to you that acne is unlikely to be caused by the model's actions.

Heather S Kennedy wrote:
Sometimes acne has a genetic basis and no matter what a model eats or how she lives her lifestyle, she still gets it. Don't be so quick to judge.

+1

bmiSTUDIO wrote:

My response is, then perhaps that person is in the wrong business. Too often models expect post production to correct all of the flaws. That's not what modeling is about in my opinion. If I want to be a pro soccer player, but I don't possess all of the attributes that can make me successful, then I have to accept the fact that I need to look for another career.

No!
I don't think being perfect is a prerequisite for being a model expecially in the art world where its not looked down upon

Chris Santucci wrote:

Gryph wrote:
Why don't you ask for a untouched picture of the model beforehand?

Should I also ask for photographic proof of female genitalia? A birth certificate to prove age? Shouldn't some things be a given? I think this certainly should.

Heather S Kennedy wrote:
Sometimes acne has a genetic basis and no matter what a model eats or how she lives her lifestyle, she still gets it. Don't be so quick to judge.

That's kind of irrelevant. If I was legally blind due to a "genetic basis" then I have no business trying to compose and focus with a camera do I?

T Smalls Photography wrote:
That's why people hire makeup artists.  Also, I don't think you can tell the causes of acne by looking at a person.

But if you saw it and she wasn't what you expected or wanted, you should have canceled.  Especially since you paid her.

Makeup can only do so much. You can't hide acne bumps with makeup.

"Cancelled?" Not after flying the model into my city for 2 days of work - nope.


Exactly. It's a pretty reasonable expectation that a model have decent skin. I can deal with a blemish here and there, but whole crops of bumps on jaw and forehead - that's too much. If you can't maintain yourself or have some genetic acne (umkaayyy), then don't model.

WOW!! seriously this is all on you!

Brian Diaz wrote:

The primary reason to hire a model is that her or his look is the one you want to photograph.  Don't you think it is reasonable to see that look before investing money in it?

Yep

FallenEcho wrote:

Why should it be a given? Many models have to deal with wearing tons of makeup that is for harsh for the skin hours at time sometimes in unideal environments, along with being unable to properly clean everything especially if they are traveling model. Also many of us females have our hormones go crazy during that time of the month. Kinda hard to maintain flawless skin 24/7 when our bodies are just doing what a body does.

+10000 If you want perfection do your due diligence and stop complaining

Chris Santucci wrote:

Brian Diaz wrote:
Don't you think it is reasonable to see that look before investing money in it?

As I said: "When would such a thing take place? A week before? A day before?"

I think my issue has to do with how a "model" takes care of themselves and I think it's completely reasonable to expect and assume that a "model" or actress takes the requisite steps to ensure they don't look pimply.

It's a nice idea to ask to see an un made up face prior to a shoot day, but when multiple people make arrangements in their schedule, locations are arranged (paid)  for, flights are arranged for, etc., it gets a little problematic to make that work in practice.

Kelleth wrote:
While I agree that models are expected to have great skin (and I myself am quite fortunate in that department), understand that acne is not necessarily indicative of someone "not taking care of themself". Sometimes it is a genetic or hormonal issue.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask for recent (or even same day) unretouched no makeup digitals to prevent booking someone with bad skin.

I'm not even talking about "great skin." I'd be ok with less than "great." And I fully understand ALL the possible causes of acne, however, I'm not necessarily making assumptions here about how this particular acne occurred. Everyone wants to jump on me for assuming, but I SAW this model smoking, not drinking water, eating garbage, and she told me she preferred "junk food."

Danielle Reid wrote:
Oh, and some skilled MUA's can hide acne bumps, or at least make your retouching job a lot less hectic. But sure, ranting helps too.

Nope. Facial topography isn't something you can cover or "hide" with makeup. Not in the least, not that it even matters.


This is a discussion forum and I offer the topic with the hope that models may see it and then understand the importance of taking care of themselves physically in order to provide a suitable appearance for photographic pursuits. As for my "rude and unnecessary speculations" - see above.

Man your lecture is stupid ignorant and annoying if you want to help anyone why don't you improve your own tactics and leave us alone unless we specificly ask for your help douche!

Rays Fine Art wrote:
Actually, I believe the principle of caveat emptor (the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made) applies here. 

You have the option of requesting an unretouched recent photo, requesting an in-person or skype interview or simply relying on the model's portfolio in making your booking decision.  Whether or not that decision gets you what you want is a chance you take.  None of them is fool-proof.  You might meet the model on Monday and find on Tuesday that she's had an overnight eruption.  (I've had lace trim cause a surprise eruption right in front of me.)  It happens and if it does, you have the option of cancelling the shoot or making the best of it.

We urge models to exercise due diligence and hold them responsible for the results if they do not.  It seems to me to be reasonable to expect the same of photographers.

All IMHO as always, of course.

This ^^^

I wish people would stop expecting "professionalism" from an "amateur" website!

From my past experience, those that have a long term acne problem (not occasional eruptions) tend to avoid publicising that they require heavy post processing in their port. To do so would lose them a lot of work.

Hence the reason why the savvy people here ask (or provide) unretouched photos.

Chris Santucci wrote:
This is a discussion forum [snip]

I think part of the problem with this thread is that you're being confrontational with your replies. You can look at both sides of the discussion rather than just being defensive, it may help change the tone of the thread.

Phane wrote:

Man your lecture is stupid ignorant and annoying if you want to help anyone why don't you improve your own tactics and leave us alone unless we specificly ask for your help douche!

shit just got real

Koryn wrote:

shit just got real

Its makes me mad when People assume or act condesending!

Chris Santucci wrote:
I've never ever heard of asking a model for "unretouched, makeup-free photos" prior to a booking. When would such a thing take place? A week before? A day before? If a model markets themselves as a model, then one should assume that they don't have permanent acne, right? See where I'm going with this?

SPV Photo wrote:
It's perfectly reasonable to ask this. Some models even include these photos in their MM ports.

I have polaroids on my website taken once a month with face shots. No makeup, no retouching. It's not unheard of.

Acne can be caused by a number of things. When I first moved to California my face broke out extremely bad. Not because of my diet, but because the air here is dry and the lack of moisture was not good. It took almost 8 months for my skin to get used to it, even when I changed my routine to add more moisture.

Ask the model to provide unretouched snapshots before the shoot if you're hiring them and suspect they may have a skin problem. Any professional model will oblige.

Tiff
www.TiffineyC.com

Phane wrote:

Its makes me mad when People assume or act condesending!

I know. There's a lot of that going around today.

Koryn wrote:

I know. There's a lot of that going around today.

atleast its entertaining! ;p

Chris Santucci wrote:
Is it too much to expect that a model (even a semi-pro or amateur model) take care of themselves? OK, so you're in your early 20's and you like to party, and smoke, and eat garbage, fine. But it's a little, dare I say - unprofessional to say the least if you expect to show up and work with bumps all over your face.

I'm in the middle of having to retouch acne on a few dozen images of a model I paid good money to and I'm not talking about a blemish, I'm talking about acne. And from what I can tell, this acne is more than likely a result of the above named causes (and this isn't worthy of a debate here.)

And this isn't the first time in the recent past I've had to deal with acne.

As a photographer, I maintain myself, my eyes, and my gear, so is it too much to ask that a model maintain themselves also? Eat healthy, drink enough water, curtail smoking, get enough sleep, etc?

I can't possibly be expecting too much here in that regard, right?

I blame you for not doing a better job at casting or having a good enough MUA on hand.

Phane wrote:

Its makes me mad when People assume or act condesending!

Well, that's a good way to deflect away from taking personal responsibility.

When I see a portfolio full of plastic faced, super touched up images, I'll ask for an re-untouched photo or two before booking.  But, apparently, that's just ridiculous.

MN Photography wrote:

Well, that's a good way to deflect away from taking personal responsibility.

When I see a portfolio full of plastic faced, super touched up images, I'll ask for an re-untouched photo or two before booking.  But, apparently, that's just ridiculous.

MN Photography wrote:
Well, that's a good way to deflect away from taking personal responsibility.

When I see a portfolio full of plastic faced, super touched up images, I'll ask for an re-untouched photo or two before booking.  But, apparently, that's just ridiculous.

Thats not what I mean that's being responible. I mean assuming things about the model regarding how she takes care of herself. I  think asking for photo before hand make perfect sense and Like other pro models on here have said  its something there ok with doing because they understand why its important.

ontherocks wrote:
this is why i learned how to retouch. models are often tomboys and come in with all sorts of scrapes, bruises and other skin issues.

and i think with acne you can't always predict breakouts. we shot one high school senior guy over the course of several days and his skin was clear the first day and not so great on the last. we've had a quite a few seniors with really bad acne. portrait professional is good at acne killing.

I'm an athlete. I train 6 days every week, and in summer, participate in some fairly intense, physically demanding outdoor sports. While I've never had acne, at least not noticeably, I get lots and lots of bruises and scrapes. Many people who want to work with me feel that way because of the body I have. It's not a body I got from sitting around. It's a body I got from getting bruised up, and challenging myself physically. You have to take the good along with the bad. I can't train like I train and not get some war wounds.

howard r wrote:
there are two separate issues here:

one is a model's responsibility to take care of herself professionally, and the other is the model's responsibility to disclose potential problems vs the photographer's responsibility to ask.

as far as acne, most acne is not related to careless lifestyle choices, so this is not an issue of the model not taking care of herself professionally.

what is in her control is to look her best, eat well, get a good night sleep, be in a positive mood and well-groomed, etc.

as far as the disclosure issue - in a perfect world a professional model would disclose any possible issue that may be a problem for photographers: things like new hair cut or color, weight change, bad skin, rashes, new tattoos, tan lines, etc.

a good rule of thumb here is that a model should absolutely give the photographer a heads up if she is not going to walk in the door looking like the images in her portfolio!

but all that said - if you find that you are constantly surprised regarding certain details that are important to you, then it might be wise to either ask for an un-retouched headshot, and/or send them a check list of what you expect of them when they show up to your shoot.

This is well said!

howard r wrote:
there are two separate issues here:

one is a model's responsibility to take care of herself professionally, and the other is the model's responsibility to disclose potential problems vs the photographer's responsibility to ask.

as far as acne, most acne is not related to careless lifestyle choices, so this is not an issue of the model not taking care of herself professionally.

what is in her control is to look her best, eat well, get a good night sleep, be in a positive mood and well-groomed, etc.

as far as the disclosure issue - in a perfect world a professional model would disclose any possible issue that may be a problem for photographers: things like new hair cut or color, weight change, bad skin, rashes, new tattoos, tan lines, etc.

a good rule of thumb here is that a model should absolutely give the photographer a heads up if she is not going to walk in the door looking like the images in her portfolio!

but all that said - if you find that you are constantly surprised regarding certain details that are important to you, then it might be wise to either ask for an un-retouched headshot, and/or send them a check list of what you expect of them when they show up to your shoot.

^^^^This

Darren Brade wrote:
I think part of the problem with this thread is that you're being confrontational with your replies. You can look at both sides of the discussion rather than just being defensive, it may help change the tone of the thread.

I'm being confrontational..? Really? I'm being defensive if anything. And who called who a douche here? Who told who they were not being professional and had flawed methods? But I'm being "confrontational?"

I shouldn't have to ask a *model* if they have clear skin any more than I should have to ask if they're in possession of all four of their limbs. The onus is on the model to have clear skin which means having the requisite discipline to achieve that end. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. To suggest that anything goes - so whatever, is ludicrous. To suggest that a "genetic" cause of acne is... whatever it is, is just not even remotely at issue here and a pretty poor excuse-as-assumption.

Can a photographer take precautions? Of course. I agree. But that's not at all relevant to my point and in my case (as I mentioned), difficult to achieve. If I have to arrange for availability of 3 people plus myself on a shoot day plus the model plus a location, how and when would I look at proof of clear skin? The day before? A week before?

I have a normal expectation that a *model* will not have problem skin, especially if I don't see it in their work. This expectation as of late will cease, for sure.

If you promote and market yourself as a model and you are getting *paid*, then you treat it as a profession and act accordingly. Otherwise, you're wasting people's time and you need to stop modeling.

Chris Santucci wrote:
I'm being confrontational..? Really? I'm being defensive if anything. And who called who a douche here? Who told who they were not being professional and had flawed methods? But I'm being "confrontational?"

I shouldn't have to ask a *model* if they have clear skin any more than I should have to ask if they're in possession of all four of their limbs. The onus is on the model to have clear skin which means having the requisite discipline to achieve that end. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. To suggest that anything goes - so whatever, is ludicrous. To suggest that a "genetic" cause of acne is... whatever it is, is just not even remotely at issue here and a pretty poor excuse-as-assumption.

Can a photographer take precautions? Of course. I agree. But that's not at all relevant to my point and in my case (as I mentioned), difficult to achieve. If I have to arrange for availability of 3 people plus myself on a shoot day plus the model plus a location, how and when would I look at proof of clear skin? The day before? A week before?

I have a normal expectation that a *model* will not have problem skin, especially if I don't see it in their work. This expectation as of late will cease, for sure.

If you promote and market yourself as a model and you are getting *paid*, then you treat it as a profession and act accordingly. Otherwise, you're wasting people's time and you need to stop modeling.

Just a suggestion Maybe you shouldn't be a Photograher if it causes you so much anxiety and anger!

Chris Santucci wrote:
Is it too much to expect that a model (even a semi-pro or amateur model) take care of themselves? OK, so you're in your early 20's and you like to party, and smoke, and eat garbage, fine. But it's a little, dare I say - unprofessional to say the least if you expect to show up and work with bumps all over your face.

I'm in the middle of having to retouch acne on a few dozen images of a model I paid good money to and I'm not talking about a blemish, I'm talking about acne. And from what I can tell, this acne is more than likely a result of the above named causes (and this isn't worthy of a debate here.)

And this isn't the first time in the recent past I've had to deal with acne.

As a photographer, I maintain myself, my eyes, and my gear, so is it too much to ask that a model maintain themselves also? Eat healthy, drink enough water, curtail smoking, get enough sleep, etc?

I can't possibly be expecting too much here in that regard, right?

You do know that it's not something you can control right?

Proper diet, lots of water, staying away from partying and late nights can help, but some people are just prone to this problem. How do you know what the cause of someone's acne is? Lots of people party and don't have acne.

I ask models how their skin is, or put this as a requirement in my castings.
You can ask for a recent cell phone shot.

It is worthy of a debate because you could have done your due diligence in making sure the model(s) had great skin before booking them.

Just food for thought.

Chris Santucci wrote:
{snip)

I shouldn't have to ask a *model* if they have clear skin any more than I should have to ask if they're in possession of all four of their limbs. The onus is on the model to have clear skin which means having the requisite discipline to achieve that end. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. To suggest that anything goes - so whatever, is ludicrous. To suggest that a "genetic" cause of acne is... whatever it is, is just not even remotely at issue here and a pretty poor excuse-as-assumption.

Ok, you shouldn't have to, but if you don't, you'll continue to have the problems you are having.

It's easy to ask, why are you so reluctant? Ask for what you want. Don't assume everyone will automagically fit your expectations.

If you aren't welcome to anybody else's opinions, then your post was nothing more than a rant and you are doing nothing to help mitigate your problem. Don't make it their problem. Make it yours.

++

Example:

Looking for models 18-24 for beauty looks
Must have clear skin, acne free
Blonde or brunette
Freckles welcome

+++

Chris Santucci wrote:
I'm being confrontational..? Really? I'm being defensive if anything. And who called who a douche here? Who told who they were not being professional and had flawed methods? But I'm being "confrontational?"

I shouldn't have to ask a *model* if they have clear skin any more than I should have to ask if they're in possession of all four of their limbs. The onus is on the model to have clear skin which means having the requisite discipline to achieve that end. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. To suggest that anything goes - so whatever, is ludicrous. To suggest that a "genetic" cause of acne is... whatever it is, is just not even remotely at issue here and a pretty poor excuse-as-assumption.

Can a photographer take precautions? Of course. I agree. But that's not at all relevant to my point and in my case (as I mentioned), difficult to achieve. If I have to arrange for availability of 3 people plus myself on a shoot day plus the model plus a location, how and when would I look at proof of clear skin? The day before? A week before?

I have a normal expectation that a *model* will not have problem skin, especially if I don't see it in their work. This expectation as of late will cease, for sure.

If you promote and market yourself as a model and you are getting *paid*, then you treat it as a profession and act accordingly. Otherwise, you're wasting people's time and you need to stop modeling.

Your posts continue to show that you are *very* ignorant when it comes to the real causes of acne.

Models (and people in general) who have acne are extremely self-conscious, and often spend thousands of dollars at dermatologists, on skincare products, trying to change their diets, etc.  People with acne don't just ignore their skin and think it's no big deal.  It has a huge impact on a persons self esteem, and they usually try to do everything in their power (that they can afford to) in order to try and solve the problem.

When I was younger, I had horrible acne, all the time, and nothing I did helped.  I wasted thousands of dollars on skincare products, dermatology visits, I got on birth control simply because the doctor told me it might help my acne, etc. 

Some models that show up with bad skin don't have it all the time.  I know that personally, one week my skin can look great, and the next it can be pretty bad.  Modeling= stress, travel, wearing heavy makeup, sweating, etc, which often leads to breakouts. 

If you want models to show up with perfect skin, let them know that you want them to cancel with you if they have a breakout, or send images of the breakout, and you will decide if you'd like to continue with the shoot.  Seriously, it's not that difficult to add one more sentence to your communication in order to improve the outcome of your shoots.

FYI- A lot of models don't have perfect skin.

Chris Santucci wrote:
As I said: "When would such a thing take place? A week before? A day before?"

Any time before you book the model is fine.