yes, makeup plays a huge part in it.  lighting as well, but i'm not the type of photographer to light just for skin.  i like to light to get the effect i really want regardless of skin quality.  i do not choose models just because they have good skin.  that's what retouch is for.  i cast models that have excellent bone structure for what it is i'm shooting.

Brian Diaz wrote:
On a side note, here's a quote from Sean Armenta, one of the most talented beauty photographers and retouchers I've ever known:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … post389363

I agree, bone structure and other facial features, trumps skin in most (maybe even all?) cases.

CHAD ALAN wrote:
OP,

Would you rather be right?

or problem free?

You can't always have both.

profound advice, and it's actually very true with many things in life. too bad he can't hear it, anymore than he can hear that acne is not a personal failing.

here's an analogy:

you should not have to send a reminder to a model when you've already set up the shoot. she made a commitment and she should show up.

but - if you send out a confirmation/reminder the day before - you might find you cut down no-shows by 40%.

Chris Santucci wrote:

I'm being confrontational..? Really? I'm being defensive if anything. And who called who a douche here? Who told who they were not being professional and had flawed methods? But I'm being "confrontational?"

I shouldn't have to ask a *model* if they have clear skin any more than I should have to ask if they're in possession of all four of their limbs. The onus is on the model to have clear skin which means having the requisite discipline to achieve that end. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. To suggest that anything goes - so whatever, is ludicrous. To suggest that a "genetic" cause of acne is... whatever it is, is just not even remotely at issue here and a pretty poor excuse-as-assumption.

Can a photographer take precautions? Of course. I agree. But that's not at all relevant to my point and in my case (as I mentioned), difficult to achieve. If I have to arrange for availability of 3 people plus myself on a shoot day plus the model plus a location, how and when would I look at proof of clear skin? The day before? A week before?

I have a normal expectation that a *model* will not have problem skin, especially if I don't see it in their work. This expectation as of late will cease, for sure.

If you promote and market yourself as a model and you are getting *paid*, then you treat it as a profession and act accordingly. Otherwise, you're wasting people's time and you need to stop modeling.

You seemed to have skipped the other post I made, care to comment on that?

Chris Santucci wrote:
I'm being confrontational..? Really? I'm being defensive if anything. And who called who a douche here? Who told who they were not being professional and had flawed methods? But I'm being "confrontational?"

You're being confrontational with your defensiveness.

You post an OP that was presumptuous in that you made a very wrong blanket assumption that acne is due solely to the person's habits.

Your responses to feedback have been defensive, even childish, and you refuse to take responsibility for your failure.

I shouldn't have to ask a *model* if they have clear skin any more than I should have to ask if they're in possession of all four of their limbs.

It takes very little time and effort to ask the model about his or her skin condition preparatory to the shoot. I do it all the time. Why? So I can consult with the MUA and because the model's complexion may dictate the lighting being used.

And if you're actually in doubt as to whether the model has all four limbs, ASK.

The onus is on the model to have clear skin which means having the requisite discipline to achieve that end. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

The onus is on the photographer to know the conditions of the shoot and that includes the model. If you want a perfect turnkey solution, hire an agency model... and tell them you want a model with absolutely clear complexion.

To suggest that anything goes - so whatever, is ludicrous.

There goes that childish streak again. You're the photographer. Take charge of your shoot, rather than whine when the world doesn't fall in line with your perception of how it should work.

To suggest that a "genetic" cause of acne is... whatever it is, is just not even remotely at issue here and a pretty poor excuse-as-assumption.

It's very much at issue when you assume it's always due to the model's habits.

Can a photographer take precautions? Of course. I agree. But that's not at all relevant to my point and in my case (as I mentioned), difficult to achieve.

Nonsense. It's completely relevant. Just ask the model for an unretouched/no-makeup Polaroid. If you don't like what you see, find another model.

If I have to arrange for availability of 3 people plus myself on a shoot day plus the model plus a location, how and when would I look at proof of clear skin? The day before? A week before?

How? By asking for an unretouched/no-makeup headshot. When? As soon as you consider her for the shoot. The earlier, the better.

I have a normal expectation that a *model* will not have problem skin, especially if I don't see it in their work. This expectation as of late will cease, for sure.

With experience, you'll learn that "problem skin" is a relative and malleable term and that a portfolio of finished images is not necessarily a reflection of reality.

If you promote and market yourself as a model and you are getting *paid*, then you treat it as a profession and act accordingly. Otherwise, you're wasting people's time and you need to stop modeling.

If you promote yourself as a photographer, then you control the factors involved in your shoot.

CHAD ALAN wrote:
OP,

Would you rather be right?

or problem free?

You can't always have both.

howard r wrote:
profound advice, and it's actually very true with many things in life. too bad he can't hear it, anymore than he can hear that acne is not a personal failing.

here's an analogy:

you should not have to send a reminder to a model when you've already set up the shoot. she made a commitment and she should show up.

but - if you send out a confirmation/reminder the day before - you might find you cut down no-shows by 40%.

Yes agree, it was a variation of what my grandpa always told me.

What if you crossed the street when it was your turn, without looking, and got hit by a car. You would be right. But you could be dead right.

You had the right of way, but didn't take every precaution to ensure your safety.

CHAD ALAN wrote:
What if you crossed the street when it was your turn, without looking, and got hit by a car. You would be right. But you could be dead right.

Kinda sums up this whole thread!

Except he IS wrong.

howard r wrote:
too bad he can't hear it, anymore than he can hear that acne is not a personal failing.

In my world, people who make and live by excuses don't get hired. My expectation is not of perfect skin and it never was. I expect a model make a reasonable attempt to maintain themselves. In essence, that's all I was ever saying in my original post here. I'm reasonably sure an agency model has pressure put on them by their agency to do just that:

Drink a lot of pure water, avoid smoking, eat a healthy diet, get enough sleep and exercise, avoid the sun, etc.

How is this even debatable?

Chris Santucci wrote:

In my world, people who make and live by excuses don't get hired. My expectation is not of perfect skin and it never was. I expect a model make a reasonable attempt to maintain themselves. In essence, that's all I was ever saying in my original post here. I'm reasonably sure an agency model has pressure put on them by their agency to do just that:

Drink a lot of pure water, avoid smoking, eat a healthy diet, get enough sleep and exercise, avoid the sun, etc.

How is this even debatable?

You are making excuses as to why you didn't ask for an unretouched photograph before hiring this model. Maybe you need to ask prospective models how much they smoke and party as well? It seems like you had such a bad experience with who you hired that you think you have zero blame as the the outcome.

Most acne is not caused or affected by the things you state. I have actual experience and even took Accutane for my skin. I did every single thing my dermatologist suggested before I took that drastic step. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Isis22 wrote:

You are making excuses as to why you didn't ask for an unretouched photograph before hiring this model. Maybe you need to ask prospective models how much they smoke and party as well? It seems like you had such a bad experience with who you hired that you think you have zero blame as the the outcome.

Most acne is not caused or affected by the things you state. I have actual experience and even took Accutane for my skin. I did every single thing my dermatologist suggested before I took that drastic step. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Your damn right!

Chris Santucci wrote:

In my world, people who make and live by excuses don't get hired.

You're making excuses for not vetting the models when it's so damned easy to do. I guess you're saying you don't get hired.

Drink a lot of pure water, avoid smoking, eat a healthy diet, get enough sleep and exercise, avoid the sun, etc.

How is this even debatable?

It's debatable because, as many have tried to explain to you, a model can do all of those things and still get acne.

How is it that you don't get that?

Chris Santucci wrote:
In my world, people who make and live by excuses don't get hired. My expectation is not of perfect skin and it never was. I expect a model make a reasonable attempt to maintain themselves. In essence, that's all I was ever saying in my original post here. I'm reasonably sure an agency model has pressure put on them by their agency to do just that:

Drink a lot of pure water, avoid smoking, eat a healthy diet, get enough sleep and exercise, avoid the sun, etc.

How is this even debatable?

Because there are plenty of people who do all of the above, and still have acne.  There are also plenty of others who smoke, drink, party, and eat nothing but fast food, and have no acne.  Your statements of cause and effect pertaining to acne are completely wrong/ignorant.  I don't understand how you're still not getting that, despite being told by tons of people in this thread (some that have actually personally struggled with acne).

You are the one making excuses.  Models often can't control how their skin behaves, but you *can* control the questions you ask when setting up a shoot.

Chris Santucci wrote:

In my world, people who make and live by excuses don't get hired.

The catch here is that you hired a model who did not meet your expectations.

The solution to avoid this in the future is to make sure the model meets your expectations before hiring her or him.

How is that even debatable?

Chris Santucci wrote:
In my world, people who make and live by excuses don't get hired. My expectation is not of perfect skin and it never was. I expect a model make a reasonable attempt to maintain themselves. In essence, that's all I was ever saying in my original post here. I'm reasonably sure an agency model has pressure put on them by their agency to do just that:

Drink a lot of pure water, avoid smoking, eat a healthy diet, get enough sleep and exercise, avoid the sun, etc.

How is this even debatable?

So why aren't you hiring these kinds of models?
Do you just expect people to live by your set of rules?

When I buy something of value, I research it first...or make sure there's a return policy.

By not taking proper steps to ensure you're hiring the right models, you're the one making excuses imo.
Or hire a casting director to vet models for you.

In the end, you can complain all you want about what is acceptable...but a lot of us don't have the same problems.

MelissaAnn  wrote:
I don't understand how you're still not getting that, despite being told by tons of people in this thread (some that have actually personally struggled with acne).

You are the one making excuses.  Models often can't control how their skin behaves, but you *can* control the questions you ask when setting up a shoot.

It's easier to blame the model for her moral failings.

Chris Santucci wrote:

In my world, people who make and live by excuses don't get hired. My expectation is not of perfect skin and it never was. I expect a model make a reasonable attempt to maintain themselves. In essence, that's all I was ever saying in my original post here. I'm reasonably sure an agency model has pressure put on them by their agency to do just that:

Drink a lot of pure water, avoid smoking, eat a healthy diet, get enough sleep and exercise, avoid the sun, etc.

How is this even debatable?

You started this thread with excuses. You're full of irony

MelissaAnn  wrote:
For the love of god, pick up book, or use google to educate yourself about acne before continuing to make ignorant statements.

+1 Having acne isn't a direct choice whether the lifestyle contributes to it or not. No one goes to take a smoke or drinks unpure water with the intention of filling their face with acne. The model is also exactly that, a model. If the rest of her is "acceptable" theres a good chance she really does try to take care of herself and its just a matter of genetics.

Heather S Kennedy wrote:
Sometimes acne has a genetic basis and no matter what a model eats or how she lives her lifestyle, she still gets it. Don't be so quick to judge.

Really. Model comes to me with acne, she goes out the door. Full stop. Acne is a prerequisite for no modelling career. And I would seek redress for damages caused.

Yan Tan Tethera wrote:

Really. Model comes to me with acne, she goes out the door. Full stop. Acne is a prerequisite for no modelling career. And I would seek redress for damages caused.

What damages were caused?

Yan Tan Tethera wrote:

Really. Model comes to me with acne, she goes out the door. Full stop. Acne is a prerequisite for no modelling career. And I would seek redress for damages caused.

Go to Google images and search "actresses without makeup".  Lot's of famous faces with acne there.

Yan Tan Tethera wrote:
Really. Model comes to me with acne, she goes out the door. Full stop. Acne is a prerequisite for no modelling career. And I would seek redress for damages caused.

And that's certainly your prerogative.  Photographers that want perfect skin should hire agency models, and take responsibility for their own personal preferences.

That being said, there are some amazing models that have less than perfect skin, and *good* photographers are still able to get *great* images with them.

Go ahead and have a look here:
http://www.stylecraze.com/articles/10-c … -only-one/

Celebrities/models with acne, yet so many photographers willing to shoot them, and so many great images of them.  How curious.  I guess it's a good thing not all photographers require models with perfect skin.

Yan Tan Tethera wrote:

Really. Model comes to me with acne, she goes out the door. Full stop. Acne is a prerequisite for no modelling career. And I would seek redress for damages caused.

You're hilarious.

Chris Santucci wrote:

I'm being confrontational..? Really? I'm being defensive if anything. And who called who a douche here? Who told who they were not being professional and had flawed methods? But I'm being "confrontational?"

I shouldn't have to ask a *model* if they have clear skin any more than I should have to ask if they're in possession of all four of their limbs. The onus is on the model to have clear skin which means having the requisite discipline to achieve that end. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. To suggest that anything goes - so whatever, is ludicrous. To suggest that a "genetic" cause of acne is... whatever it is, is just not even remotely at issue here and a pretty poor excuse-as-assumption.

Can a photographer take precautions? Of course. I agree. But that's not at all relevant to my point and in my case (as I mentioned), difficult to achieve. If I have to arrange for availability of 3 people plus myself on a shoot day plus the model plus a location, how and when would I look at proof of clear skin? The day before? A week before?

I have a normal expectation that a *model* will not have problem skin, especially if I don't see it in their work. This expectation as of late will cease, for sure.

If you promote and market yourself as a model and you are getting *paid*, then you treat it as a profession and act accordingly. Otherwise, you're wasting people's time and you need to stop modeling.

dude...take a step away from the keyboard. You may have singlehandedly killed your next 10 shoots with a piss poor attitude and a rant in a Model Forum.

YOU own who you hire. YOU control the vetting process. If you want perfection, use an agency rather than ModelMayhem.

MelissaAnn  wrote:

And that's certainly your prerogative.  Photographers that want perfect skin should hire agency models, and take responsibility for their own personal preferences.

That being said, there are some amazing models that have less than perfect skin, and *good* photographers are still able to get *great* images with them.

Go ahead and have a look here:
http://www.stylecraze.com/articles/10-c … -only-one/

Celebrities/models with acne, yet so many photographers willing to shoot them, and so many great images of them.  How curious.  I guess it's a good thing not all photographers require models with perfect skin.

I love you!

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
If you want perfection, use an agency rather than ModelMayhem.

angel   emily wrote:

There you go OP...an example of perfection

Chris Santucci wrote:
Is it too much to expect that a model (even a semi-pro or amateur model) take care of themselves? OK, so you're in your early 20's and you like to party, and smoke, and eat garbage, fine. But it's a little, dare I say - unprofessional to say the least if you expect to show up and work with bumps all over your face.

I'm in the middle of having to retouch acne on a few dozen images of a model I paid good money to and I'm not talking about a blemish, I'm talking about acne. And from what I can tell, this acne is more than likely a result of the above named causes (and this isn't worthy of a debate here.)

And this isn't the first time in the recent past I've had to deal with acne.

As a photographer, I maintain myself, my eyes, and my gear, so is it too much to ask that a model maintain themselves also? Eat healthy, drink enough water, curtail smoking, get enough sleep, etc?

I can't possibly be expecting too much here in that regard, right?

As you have stated yourself above, this is not the first time this has happened to you.

So what changes did you make to minimize this from occurring again?

Moving forward.

-Request current UNEDITED photos before you book especially if airfare, hotel reservations and other expenses are involved.
-Every shoot has specific requirements...e.g. height, hair color, size. Include clear skin.
-Don't assume and don't take anything for granted.

Also, when a model has skin problems, you need to compensate with lighting, angles, etc... it will make post a lot easier.

MelissaAnn  wrote:
Because there are plenty of people who do all of the above, and still have acne.  There are also plenty of others who smoke, drink, party, and eat nothing but fast food, and have no acne.  Your statements of cause and effect pertaining to acne are completely wrong/ignorant.  I don't understand how you're still not getting that, despite being told by tons of people in this thread (some that have actually personally struggled with acne).

You are the one making excuses.  Models often can't control how their skin behaves, but you *can* control the questions you ask when setting up a shoot.

Yes

Orca Bay Images wrote:
It's easier to blame the model for her moral failings.

Yes

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
dude...take a step away from the keyboard. You may have singlehandedly killed your next 10 shoots with a piss poor attitude and a rant in a Model Forum.

YOU own who you hire. YOU control the vetting process. If you want perfection, use an agency rather than ModelMayhem.

YES